Okay we have another lovely female 3rd party figure that just came out, but I just have to ask again--where are the men?  Any progress on any new male figures?????

Unfortunately, in Poserland there inequality in a reverse direction. More femmes and more things for them. I agree wholeheartedly with you that there needs to be a larger variety of male figures and clothing for them. I'm helping my best friend with a novel she's writing (doing Poser illustrations and character images) and so far the cast is 4 males and two females. I don't have enough clothing peices for the male characters and I'm on a budget. More stuff for the guys! chanting :)

the gallery has a preponderence of lady renders.

a category for male pinup would be kewl.

What proportion of those who model human figures are women, I wonder?

An old topic, much discussed around here.  I post a render of a male character and get a smattering of views.  I post a render of a female character, and I get more views in a single day than the male character gets in a week!

Male figure:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2352889&user_id=229244&np&np

Female figure:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2354348&user_id=229244&np&np

That's just the way things are around here!

This question has been posed several times over the 12 years I've been on the forum-no new answers for you. The why has been answered. It's what it is and not likely to change.

Women and men (for the most part) prefer looking at renders of female characters.

I'm not sure that women prefer to look at females, but I have only myself and my friends as evidence. Maybe it's true for a lot of others. It isn't for me.  Women certainly seem to prefer to render females, in any case, though again, I don't. I just have a lot more content available for them. So I can have more variety in renders featuring females.

But if half the population definitely prefers something (and the other half has no preference), that's sufficient to skew the views significantly.

Then, once that preference is noted, it become entrenched: fewer views on male renders = less motivation to buy/make male content = less variety in male renders = fewer renders = fewer views.

One thing's for sure, we still can't get enough of the good ol' V

I know that someone over at DeviantArt is modelling a male figure, possibly for use in Poser.  It isn't ready yet.

Meanwhile, I prefer using male figures, and I do buy products for male figures and characters. 

I follow predominantly male figure art over at DeviantArt, which has more of that ilk in its galleries than at here in Renderosity.

I've seen posted here at Rendo several male figures in development. But it seems they are always in development. A couple of them looked quite nice and I would consider getting them. But then there would have to be some sort of support for converting existing clothing (which isn't a heck of a lot) to fit these new men. I've even heard that the Poser team is working on a new male figure. But so far, nothing has come out. We've got several new femmes out there now. But they'll all have the same old boyfriends.

Quote - What proportion of those who model human figures are women, I wonder?

This. The perception is that men don't want male figures. This is most certainly incorrect. I do damsel in distress images. Always on the lookout for distinctive male characters. Have lots of females. Anyone get the hint?

Quote - What proportion of those who model human figures are women, I wonder?

i really dont think this is it.

why should someone put the same amount (or more) work into a male figure when they know that the most they can shoot for is 1/5th the sales of a comparable female figure?

and this is the answer to all of the weekly Poser forum threads such as:

'Why arent there more nurse shoes in the marketplace?'

'Why is there so much slutwear?'

'Why are the characters in the marketplace idealized? Why arent there more chubby and out of shape characters?'

the simple answer to these and similar questions is because thats what people want. Merchants dont set the trends in the MP - customers do.

Also, the vocal minority who post in these forums represent ~1% of the customer base. Even if every single person who weighed in in a thread asking for nursing flats, muumuus or Peruvian train conductor outfits in the forums actually bought the item when a merchant made it (and they DONT:  when its crunch time its usually 'oh that looks exactly like what i wanted, i added it to my wishlist' or 'ooooh pretty!! ill buy that next month'), its still not even a fraction of the customer base. 

Perhaps in time Renderosity can add some sortof pre-order/wishlist feature where customers can start a request thread for an item and people can click to pre-order. this will give merchants a much clearer idea of how much interest there is and whether its worth it or not to make that item. 

its hard enough starting out as a merchant. you have the decision of catering to the mainstream and swimming upstream against thousands of other merchants doing the same.... or you can swim in a smaller pond and carve out a niche for yourself catering to the alternative 'request' markets, but risk spending weeks making something and experiencing pitiful sales when the people who requested it dont follow through and actually buy it.

making a finished product involves a lot of work. even many people who dabble in 3D dont understand this:  theres many a step between something you model in a 3D app and a finished, packaged, tested and polished product ready for the marketplace.  unless they are independantly wealthy or retired, most merchants - unless theyre attempting to carve out a niche for themselves - cannot afford to spend that much time on a product that will only interest less than a tenth of the market.  if they really want niche products, then customers can help by actually following through and buying - not just wishlisting or complimenting - these products when theyre actually made.

I beg to differ a little with you on one point...

Some of the new figures released in the past couple of years have been given away for free, so their marketability as a source of revenue for the creator couldn't have been a prime motivation.

How many free male figures have been made? I mean, that were made and released originally at no cost. They would have to be made by someone who wanted to make one simply out of the joy of doing so. If male modellers don't seem inclined to do it for just that reason, I'm simply wondering whether females ones might, and if so, how many were out there compared to the number of men -- because even if they might be more inclined to do it, if there aren't very many, the chance of even one of them taking on such a monumental project is quite small.

Quote - Some of the new figures released in the past couple of years have been given away for free, so their marketability as a source of revenue for the creator couldn't have been a prime motivation. How many free male figures have been made? I mean, that were made and released originally at no cost. They would have to be made by someone who wanted to make one simply out of the joy of doing so.

agreed.

for the record:  i dont find texturing male bodyhair and scrotums to be a very enjoyable pastime. 

Glad I'm not a merchant so I can waste my time for whatever I want. :-)

But if I were, I'd do exactly what BlackHearted suggested.

Actually, I wouldn't even waste my time with full body custom sculpts, but rather do dial spins with a merchant resource texture.

You know, the ones with the little made up background storys and cutesy names that are a "must-have new and exiting addition to your runtime".

The average user can't tell anyway if you spent 12 hours sculpting in ZBrush or 12 minutes spinning some body morph dials.

I'm pretty sure next to "hair coloration add-ons", those have the best "time spent vs money earned" ratio.

;-)

Women are prettier?  :tongue1:

Quote - Actually, I wouldn't even waste my time with full body custom sculpts, but rather do dial spins with a merchant resource texture. You know, the ones with the little made up background storys and cutesy names that are a "must-have new and exiting addition to your runtime".

The average user can't tell anyway if you spent 12 hours sculpting in ZBrush or 12 minutes spinning some body morph dials.

I'm pretty sure next to "hair coloration add-ons", those have the best "time spent vs money earned" ratio.

;-)

perhaps - but they have no staying power in the marketplace.  my gears grind pretty slow, but in over a decade here ive watched many flavor of the month vendors come and go.

GND4 was released 5 years ago and is still selling strong.  the months of time invested was highly worth it.

but yes, for the most part im sure spamming quickie products every week has the best time vs money earned ratio - and much lower stress. 

Joke: No body seen the; "Deflate breasts", dials in the new figures :-)

@ JoePublic
Great moprhs man. Well done. All M3's? Right?

Quote - Women are prettier?  :tongue1:

I think just about all 22 year olds with mostly flawless skin and athletic bodies are pretty, and that's the type that dominates the marketplace.  35+ year old female characters (texture/morph sets) are even less evident in the marketplace than male characters of that age. So maybe at 35+ the men are prettier? :P

Quote - for the record:  i dont find texturing male bodyhair and scrotums to be a very enjoyable pastime.

I can't imagine wanting to look too closely at hi res pictures of someone's snatch. But if you want sales of female characters, it seems you have to at least give it a bit of effort.

Quote - Joke: No body seen the; "Deflate breasts", dials in the new figures :-)

^hey, i make small breast morphs :)
id prefer if all my figures had A-B cup boobs :P

but there is direct relationship between amount of views and breast size. this is true not just in the 3D/art community but out in the real world as well:  go ask a woman who augmented from A cups to DDs how much more attention shes suddenly getting. 

@BH
Yeah, untill gravity takes over with age.

I prefer A to B cups too.

Its the first thing I do on each and every new figure.
Deflate the balloons. :-)

Sorry, but most of them can not be called breasts. Are not worht the name.

Your figures are an exeption. => And they are a lot more attractive that way.

But then, when I show my figures (with the smaller breasts), I get shot at too.

Quote - > Quote - for the record:  i dont find texturing male bodyhair and scrotums to be a very enjoyable pastime.

I can't imagine wanting to look too closely at hi res pictures of someone's snatch. But if you want sales of female characters, it seems you have to at least give it a bit of effort.

takes about 15 min to texture, so its no big deal.  hands, feet, ears, etc take exponentially longer.
body hair is just a PITA to texture because its more difficult to blend and never really looks right 'painted on'. neither does a hairless male texture.  eventually well have fast, full body hair from the hair room and this will no longer be a problem. 

but even if the work was totally equal, and the potential profits were as well, id still be more inclined to create a female because theyre far more aesthetically pleasing. but thats not the case: males are more work, for far less potential profit.

when 90% of the galleries are NMIATWAS renders, youll see more male figures. 

I guess peeps are just not using their galleries correctly.

If you want your male renders to get more views, put a woman in the background somewhere, make her face the subject of your thumbnail, and put a nudity tag on the image. Or put a nudity/violence tag on the image and use the default mature content thumbnail.

Surely views on galleries in renderosity cannot be an important goal for anyone other than vendors. I've looked at the "art charts" here. We don't really think sort of popularity is a measure of image quality, do we? And if not, why would we care how many view our images got.

For vendors, well, I expect it is important. I've bought quite a few items after seeing my favs use them in a render.

Quote - males are more work, for far less potential profit. when 90% of the galleries are NMIATWAS renders, youll see more male figures. 

Totally cannot dispute this... except, I think it will be NMIAWWAG because he carries a gun and hangs out in warehouses or other sorts of seedy urban settings.

Quote - ...im sure spamming quickie products every week has the best time vs money earned ratio - and much lower stress. 

C'mon, tell us what you really think about them, don't beat around the bush?!  LOL!

Quote - So maybe at 35+ the men are prettier? :P

Given a loose shirt around the gut, we can hide it better.  Thank goodness for dynamic clothes!  :)

with a few talented exceptions, the only thing the art charts have ever reflected here is the amount of facebook/MSN/Skype friends someone messages to say 'o hai i uploaded another img lolz, plz comment and rate!! THX!! HUGZ!!!!11'.

by 'views' i meant 'attention' - in the galleries, store, and RL. 

Quote - > Quote - So maybe at 35+ the men are prettier? :P

Given a loose shirt around the gut, we can hide it better.  Thank goodness for dynamic clothes!  :)

^women with big boobs can pull this off way more effectively. 

boobs + loose shirt = mega muffin concealment :)

big enough boobs and the right shirt could conceal a third trimester pregnancy, LOL.  

Oh, yes, you did make that clear. I think on the subject of views, I was responding more to the previous posters bemoaning the lack of views in Renderosity galleries.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - So maybe at 35+ the men are prettier? :P

Given a loose shirt around the gut, we can hide it better.  Thank goodness for dynamic clothes!  :)

^women with big boobs can pull this off way more effectively. 

boobs + loose shirt = mega muffin concealment :)

big enough boobs and the right shirt could conceal a third trimester pregnancy, LOL.  

Surely 35+ year old female characters in Poser content wouldn't have to be fat, just as the 35+ male characters generally aren't. Some have rather prosaic bodies, to be sure, but they're not shockingly unattractive.

I think the Poser market is less tolerant of wrinkles on women's faces. We don't even give them wrinkles when they raise their eyebrows. Every one of them has had botox.

IRL young fat girls get way more attention than 40 year old athletes.

This guy is exceptionally talented:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=20326

He renders mostly male figures with a high degree of artistic excellence, yet I don't ever see his work in the Art Charts.  If you want to find quality renders, if you're looking for small-bosomed women (I render those, too!) or men, people ARE posting them here.  You just need to wade through a lot of "A Mostly Naked V4 Against a Fractal Background" renders.

Quote - This guy is exceptionally talented:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=20326

He renders mostly male figures with a high degree of artistic excellence, yet I don't ever see his work in the Art Charts.  If you want to find quality renders, if you're looking for small-bosomed women (I render those, too!) or men, people ARE posting them here.  You just need to wade through a lot of "A Mostly Naked V4 Against a Fractal Background" renders.

 

Agreed. Love his stuff. He does show up in the art charts frequently. (I check them every once in a while just to remind myself why I don't have a gallery here.) My all time fave does lots of skulls and monsters as well as men and women. Not saying no one is rendering them, but the default image does seem to be exactly as you describe. The point was made that the same person can post comparable images of a man and of a woman, and the woman will get views and the man won't.

percentage of people with blue eyes in North America:  ~15%
percentage of people with blue eyes globally: <2%

percentage of hollywood celebrities/leading actors/models with blue eyes: 50-75%? 

percentage of North Americans that are overweight:  approaching 70%
percentage that are obese: 34%

percentage of hollywood celebrities/leading actors/models that are overweight: <5%?

average breast size of North Americans:
B cup: 44%
C cup: 28%
D cup or larger: 1%

number of hollywood celebrities with D cup: 40-50%?
number of porn stars and pinup models with D cup or larger: 75%+?

why are people so shocked and outraged when the Poser market and galleries follows the exact same trends?  the media is driven by ratings, and is a more or less accurate representation of what people want to see.  

Also, and this is the truly frustrating part (speaking as a former Rendo merchant) people ask for stuff and never use it or never even download/buy it. Happens more often than not.  I can not count how many times I've read things like, "I have gigs of content I haven't even used yet".  That's not the kind of thing to get you motivated to create a figure you know going in will have to fight an uphill battle. Couple that with no one wanting to provide support for a male figure (I mean, let's be real - there are at LEAST 10 males in the Poser universe and maybe 3 get clothes and two of them are Michael) and you really can't make an argument why it would be worth the time to make something like a new male for the masses.

I always thought Poser had enough polygons for everybody, so we really shouldn't fight over boob-sizes.

:-)

@Vilters: Thanks. Yes, all M3.

Btw, maybe I'm weird, maybe it's the 40+ years of scale modelling, maybe my liberal european upbringing in the 70s, but when I sculpt a body is a body is a body to me.

Whether I reshape a scrotum or some boobs or a shoulder or a kneecap: It's just a wrong shape I want to turn into a correct shape.

And besides, only sculpting perfectly beautiful women would get very boring pretty fast, I guess.

;-)

Quote - Also, and this is the truly frustrating part (speaking as a former Rendo merchant) people ask for stuff and never use it or never even download/buy it. Happens more often than not.

yep.

im sure many merchants here have experienced seeing a bunch of people (claiming to speak for all customers) clamoring in a thread for a certain type of item, and then when the merchant actually takes the risk, makes it and delivers what was asked all of a sudden the people that asked for it have all kindsof excuses on why they cant buy it right now/just yet.

so what happens? they go back to making mainstream content and you end up souring another merchant towards ever taking the risk of making niche content again. 

Exactly. I'm a firm believer in taking chances but at some point, after being presented with tumbleweeds, the risk taker starts to wonder why they're bothering.

Maybe the trick to releasing a figure is to not announce your progress, (which is not to imply that I am working diligently on Poser's next Ken doll/weddingcake/gay pron character.)

Quote - im sure many merchants here have experienced seeing a bunch of people (claiming to speak for all customers) clamoring in a thread for a certain type of item, and then when the merchant actually takes the risk, makes it and delivers what was asked all of a sudden the people that asked for it have all kindsof excuses on why they cant buy it right now/just yet.

so what happens? they go back to making mainstream content and you end up souring another merchant towards ever taking the risk of making niche content again. 

That's why we have so much slutware. Vendors have to make a living, too! As far as clamoring for items that subsequently don't sell, that trend extends across other creative endeavors.  I've had people write to me and ask about my latest book project with apparently great interest, only to never actually BUY a copy. (All of my e-book versions are less than $3.00 each, so it's not like they're really expensive!)  I can certainly understand and appreciate the frustration of vendors who invest their time and effort to create apparel for male figures, only to encounter disappointing sales.

Renderosity is what it is. We're not going to change anything by lamenting the dearth of male figures in renders, the lack of support for male figures in the Poserverse, and the popularity of buxom, scantily-clad V4 girls in the galleries.

are we in a race to make the 1st wm male figure ?  ready, set ....>>

actually, how many P9/PP12 users do you estimate are out there?

maybe we should settle for a non wm new male figure?

do the helper bones make the difference?

are we in a race to make the 1st wm male figure ?  ready, set ....>>

actually, how many P9/PP12 users do you estimate are out there?

maybe we should settle for a non wm new male figure?

do the helper bones make the difference?

Lol, I thought "wm" meant "white male" at first.

The figure I'm working on is not weight mapped, but it will only work in Poser 8 and up because of some glitch that I can't get past.

Meh.  I just dropped a pile of cash on male clothing, I'm working on a Webcomic and I need heros/peasants/plain old dudes to help populate it (not to mention 1/2 the major characters are male).

It's tough, for sure.  Thankfully the Rogue tunic/pants have add on textures, I can mix and match so that not everyone is in the same uniform, add in some Xurge3D and Daz clothing and it's possible to kind of have a decent wardrobe for a male fantasy character.

Finding impractical armor for M3/M4 has been a pain, though.  And why should Vicky have all the fun getting flesh exposed to cold air, dirt, and the occasional spitting dragon?

I might recommend a Kickstarter project for new male figures and clothing, that's a "put up or shut up" way to approach fiundng new development.  If the money doesn't materialize, no big loss, you haven't spent six months or mpore for zero ROI (return on invetment).

I just want to stress that I don't think it's a Rendo or even a Poser specific issue. It's one of those things you just have to decide if you think is worth doing and either do it or don't.  Even then, it's a crap shoot as to how things will turn out. However, the original question deserved a real answer as to why there may not be as many people persuing the creation of male figures or male related content.

 It's a big deal to create a Poser figure for the general populace - it takes a lot of hard work and effort. People expect a lot of functionality for the lowest dollar value, so you really have to want to do it or think you can bring something truly different to the table. I just wanted to point out how frustrating it can be to go through all that and then find all that effort go to waste is a factor in possibly why there aren't as many males out there. 

I think the problem is that Poser has no "pro-market".

Scale modelling was "THE" hobby in the 60's and 70's, but because of advancements in computers and video games, it was basically dead by the 80's.

But apart from the mainstream kids market, there was also a dedicated group of "serious" adult modellers who yearned for more accurate and more niche models regardless of cost.

At first it was only a small "semi-pro" cottage industry that produced high end models for them, but starting in the 90's, more and more new kit companies were founded that also catered to that "pro" market, resulting in a bigger than ever scale modeling hobby noone in the 80's would have ever dreamed about.

Back in the 80's you were lucky if one or two new kits were released each year, now it's dozends every month.

And the quality has also skyrocketed.

Back to Poser, the problem is we need customers willing to pay, let's say $150 for a set of "niche" clothing instead of $15.

History shows, we simply don't have that type of "serious" customers.

Honestly said, I really don't know, why.

Either Poser is strictly a "poor man's hobby" or Poser customers are so spoiled by all the "offers" and "deals" that they simply can't appreciate the added expense of creating something "non-mainstream" any more.

are you using those capsule thingees in P8?

What if you rigged it in P7?

M3 had a couple good impractical armors, if you don't use all the pieces.  doh, can't remember the names.  it had knee pads, a cozy toast protector. 

Again, still doesn't explain why no one's made a free male (that I know of) or why there is comparatively so little free content for males, yet I have downloaded three free females in the last year, four if you count V4WM, and free content for females is essentially infinite.

I guess makers of freebie male content don't get enough adoration, praise, and promises to the blood of firstborn sons?

Quote - the simple answer to these and similar questions is because thats what people want. Merchants dont set the trends in the MP - customersdo. Also, the vocal minority who post in these forums represent ~1% of the customer base. Even if every single person who weighed in in a thread asking for nursing flats, muumuus or Peruvian train conductor outfits in the forums actually bought the item when a merchant made it (and they DONT:  when its crunch time its usually 'oh that looks exactly like what i wanted, i added it to my wishlist' or 'ooooh pretty!! ill buy that next month'), its still not even a fraction of the customer base. 

Perhaps in time Renderosity can add some sortof pre-order/wishlist feature where customers can start a request thread for an item and people can click to pre-order. this will give merchants a much clearer idea of how much interest there is and whether its worth it or not to make that item. 

its hard enough starting out as a merchant. you have the decision of catering to the mainstream and swimming upstream against thousands of other merchants doing the same.... or you can swim in a smaller pond and carve out a niche for yourself catering to the alternative 'request' markets, but risk spending weeks making something and experiencing pitiful sales when the people who requested it dont follow through and actually buy it.

making a finished product involves a lot of work. even many people who dabble in 3D dont understand this:  theres many a step between something you model in a 3D app and a finished, packaged, tested and polished product ready for the marketplace.  unless they are independantly wealthy or retired, most merchants - unless theyre attempting to carve out a niche for themselves - cannot afford to spend that much time on a product that will only interest less than a tenth of the market.  if they really want niche products, then customers can help by actually following through and buying - not just wishlisting or complimenting - these products when theyre actually made.

That was basically exactly what I was going to say.  I worked on a just a niche character set once.  One that many forum posters said they had interest in.   Spent at least a month on the project.  time = money.  And the sales were basically non-existant.  

It was a complete waste of time and not something that I will likely do again, unless of course I become independantly wealthy at some point and get to just make stuff for giggles.  

As for me personally, I do prefer the female figure and am female.  I do have some  use for male "things".  However, the ratios are skewed, in 3d and real life.

That's the start of an interesting conversation, Joe. I won't jump on it (though I really want to) but i will say a lot of what you just said resonates with me.  

 Not to get too off topic but I do see a small number of people trying to raise the bar of what has been considered the norm for a Poser character up to this point. Successes and failures and the reasons for either not withstanding, it's a trend I hope will continue for all types of content. Hopefully some upcoming figures will help push that idea home. 

It is in some way tied to the site (renderosity, runtimedna, etc) and in some way to the software (Poser & DazStudio). For some reason i do not know (perhaps because the Poser 4 woman was too well suited for pin up renders?), Poser and its main content sites specialized in the Naked-Vicky-in-a-Temple genre. Other sites/software specialize in different things, too. For example Vue is used mainly for rendering landscapes. There are characters for Vue as well, but the main content market focuses on various kinds of dirt, stones and plants, and the reason for that is not that there are more plants and rocks on the planet than there are humans, they just specialize because they want to (or need to) excel at one thing instead of being a jack of all trades.

If it were a universal rule that mankind wanted to see naked Vickies more than anything else, it should be common to every software and content market, but it is not; at turbosquid for example there are more male figures than female figures, and no particular lamenting of the vendors that the male figures do not sell well (at least not as far as i know). There is even one site (maleposerrotica.com), which has specialized in the male figures for poser, and if the demand for male figures is big enough that it can support a whole website (admittedly a small website), it cannot be that small, i think. It is just small here. So if you take a software specialized in naked-vicky-renders and visit a website specialized in naked-vicky-renders, i am not particularly surprised that male poser figures might appear to be somewhat underrepresented at renderosity (or runtimedna, or daz for that matter).

Quote - Either Poser is strictly a "poor man's hobby" or Poser customers are so spoiled by all the "offers" and "deals" that they simply can't appreciate the added expense of creating something "non-mainstream" any more.

Both, I expect.

Between the generosity of the freebie makers and Daz marketing (giving away free software), 3d rendering has been open to the market of utterly broke teens, single moms, and fixed income retirees, at least judging from the posts over at Daz complaining about $2 coupons not working, or their bank going into overdraft when a membership fee gets charged "too early in the month" etc, etc.

And, yes, if you give discounts too often, people feel cheated when they don't get them. If you charge excessive brokerage fees, popular vendors break away and sell for 2/3 the price, bringing down the expectations of pricing, and PC type clubs give a perception that one should get quality products for a couple of dollars.

I would absolutely pay $150 for a male version of M4 as good as GND4.  But I can't prove it, and if I'm the only one who would, that's not very helpful.

The kickstarter idea, though, is actually kinda cool.

making a list of the male figures:

Dork
Don
Will
James6
Ben
Simon - and the G2s
Ryan
Apollo - is he still around?
Michael 2 - is he the same as Don?  i remember reading Judy is V2.
M3
David, Hiro 3, Luke, Matt, Freak
Hitoro
M4, H4, Freak 4
Vincent Parker - i've never actually seen him.
V4's male morph - does a male morph count?

Quote - Again, still doesn't explain why no one's made a free male (that I know of) or why there is comparatively so little free content for males, yet I have downloaded three free females in the last year, four if you count V4WM, and free content for females is essentially infinite.

I guess makers of freebie male content don't get enough adoration, praise, and promises to the blood of firstborn sons?

I don't think it's so much about adoration as it is : Use my stuff. 

Like the, "if you make it, they will come" thing just does not seem to hold true and the content creators see that. As mentioned in one form or another before, we are in the grip of a nearly concrete cycle: Creators won't create things people don't seem to want but people can't want things if creators don't create them.