i have seen a ppl mention rendering in cinema 4d.

i am wondering is there a benifit rending a static poser scene in c4d vs. rendering in firefly

thanx in advance

"i have seen a ppl mention rendering in cinema 4d.

i am wondering is there a benifit rending a static poser scene in c4d vs. rendering in firefly"

Hi it at this point in time there is certainly no financial benefit !!!
To be very honest I no longer consider Cinema4D  A Good Value for what Maxon is demanding
Their most Base package Cinema4D "Prime"  is $995 USD and has no ability to render GI /IDL

For that( GI/IDL)you need to move up to"Broadcast"
$1700 USD.

if you are not satisfied with firefly there is Always the free LUX renderer
and there is a a free  python plugin to export your  poserscenes to LUX and a new Commercial plugin coming soon from the same Gentleman who made the
"Reality" Export to LUX plugin For Daz studio.

Cheers

I thought -- and I base this entirely on a post by another user elsewhere -- that one of the major benefits to rendering Poser scenes in C4d was a very substantial increase in speed. Is that not true?

generally yeah the more lights with a more accurate light to texture response would be another

"I

thought -- and I base this entirely on a post by another user elsewhere -- that one of the major benefits to rendering Poser scenes in C4d was a very substantial increase in speed. Is that not true?"

This is quite true Cinema4D is an order magnitude faster and better than poser firefly even with huge multi million polygon scenes and complex lighting.

I have been using C4D to render my poser content& animations for over 10 years but its recent price structure might be burdensome for  most people coming from the general poser user base.

Cheers

Quote - "I

thought -- and I base this entirely on a post by another user elsewhere -- that one of the major benefits to rendering Poser scenes in C4d was a very substantial increase in speed. Is that not true?"

 

This is quite true Cinema4D is an order magnitude faster and better than poser firefly even with huge multi million polygon scenes and complex lighting.

I have been using C4D to render my poser content& animations for over 10 years but its recent price structure might be burdensome for  most people coming from the general poser user base.

Cheers

Oh, no doubt. It's expensive.

If you've got production deadlines, then the time difference would eventually pay for itself, I'd think.

I'm considering it myself. Not because the final renders take so long (though my patience does not extend to a render that takes longer than 8 hours), but because in the course of any given project, I may do a couple of hundred test renders. Most are at draft quality and small resolution, but if they feature multiple reflective surfaces and transparencies they still often take 10 minutes or more. This gets old very quickly.

So I'm at the stage of wondering whether I want to spend money on a faster renderer or a faster machine.

"I'm considering it myself. Not because the final renders take so long (though my patience does not extend to a render that takes longer than 8 hours), but because in the course of any given project, I may do a couple of hundred test renders. Most are at draft quality and small resolution, but if they feature multiple reflective surfaces and transparencies they still often take 10 minutes or more. This gets old very quickly.

So I'm at the stage of wondering whether I want to spend money on a faster renderer"

Hi here is a live realtime screen recording of a full Global illumination render  with Maxon C4D R11  ** >KOJI**

just under 4 minutes
Hardware:
relatively ancient 2.16 GHZ Macbook with 2 gig of RAM

Also be aware that Cinema DOES NOT SUPPORT any NODE BASED Materials from Poser there are NO workarounds!!!!.

Be prepared to say goodbye to any of bagginsbills shaders or S.G.'s "EZskin "Shader
and use only  image based textured poser content.

Also there is NO native support for the PZ3 poser scene format
so on top of $1700 USD to get the minimum version of C4D with GI/IDL ( Prime)

You will have to get the very well done
INTERPOSER PRO PLUGIN $75 USD

or the  interposer LTD to import your figure with texture intact if you only need stills
as most poser user tend to do exclusively

Cheers

Thank you very much, Wolf. That does give me a better idea of what kind of gains (and losses) I could expect.

yes wolf ty for the clear answer. as it stands now- i think firefly will do just fine.

There's a lot of render engines for defrent purposes.
games ,speed ,realisim ect ect.

Vray is one of the best known render engines.

LuxRender is free has a poser version.

You can get a lot of kool efect with 2D filters also .

Gimps free.

I like playing with topaz with IranView ,I don't have photoshop.
http://www.topazlabs.com
There afordable

It is not only about rendering

Although the speed is faster by an order of magnitude and better too. And it render multipass to Photoshop.

But he real advantage is to get your model into an environment that has no limitations. In addition to render you have a full fledged high end modeler to you disposal and with Kuroyume's InterPoser Pro plugin you can pose and morph your figures just like in Poser. (He is working on a Genesis version).

None of the other high end modelling tool has this close connection to Poser. There is Poserfusion but it is very limited in comparison.

"But he real advantage is to get your model into an environment that has no limitations. In addition to render you have a full fledged high end modeler to you disposal and with Kuroyume's InterPoser Pro plugin you can pose and morph your figures just like in Poser. (He is working on a Genesis version)."

Agreed!!
Add to that can load poser content directly from your runtime/runtimes direct into C4D without even launching poser ,including animated poses to render the animations in C4D
you can also add C4D's Top notch Dynamic hair to you poser figures for way more realism during animation..>SAMPLE<

However the thread OP was specifically  asking about rendering poser content in C4D not about its modeling or anything else.

Cheers

From the trivia department. Once in CGTalk a person asked innocently a question about Poser he didn't knew that Poser is pariah and tabu in CGSociety. One member condescended himself enough to mention that perhaps he should ask a C4D user?, "because C4D users tend to use Poser more than other people". But immediately one C4D user came forward and vehemently denied, obviously he felt insulted.. ;)

So, this is the way of the world in CGSociety. Nevertheless, many with C4D also use Poser no matter what they say. The reason is obvious.

But the rising prices of Cinema 4D is a problem. What is there for alternatives? There is not one single program but maybe two. The combination of Carrara and Blender may be a viable solution.

"But the rising prices of Cinema 4D is a problem. What is there for alternatives? There is not one single program but maybe two. The combination of Carrara and Blender may be a viable solution.
"

As far as DIRECT support of the poser formats ouside of poser itself (PZ2, PZ3, etc etc)
the combination of C4D &Interposer Pro has NO Equal .

However I recently began Experimenting with my Old seat of Lightwave 9.6  for VFX work because C4D cant do any realistic Volumetric smoke without buying more plugin Like Dipit or Turbulence.

I realized that Lightwave 9.6 Can import poser figures with textures intact.
 and can apply animation as long as it is baked to a PLA animated mesh via its native MDD plugin

There is a "poser to lightwave" kit some where online that bakes poser animation to PLA

but I am successfully doing this from C4D Via RipTide pro .
More steps involved than just rendering in Cinema
but I am going to need lightwaves production proven hypervoxel particles for some projects So I am going to need my animated poser actors moving within lightwave  itself.

On the Matter of  the forums CG society,
It  isfunny that many of the C4D users there slam poser until I post links to my animations showing how poser can do several things that even the new C4D R14 cannot do

Examples:Combine Cloth-Ragdoll-& Rigid body Dynamic Simulation (via poser physics plugin).
or easily transfer Character animation from one figure to a completely Different one Via animated pose sets,

Whenever I do this the thread suddenly falls silent.

Cheers

I don't know how experienced you are in these areas (OP) but I will give you my impressions as a newer and less experienced user.  I really dislike c4d.  

True it does render a lot faster than Poser but I have also had it crash far more than Poser.  Using C4d 10.5 Interposer Pro and PP2012

Once you get through the vast learning curve there are many things you can do to speed up your process with Poser figures.  There is a way to cut down on material maps so that you are only loading them one time and etc etc.  But those things take time to learn and patience to master.

Someone suggested Carrara as an alternative.  IMO that route isn't a great solution either.  I do love the speed of Carraras renders BUT I think the quality is lacking.  I see far more depth and realism in Poser renders and I don't know if that is due to lighting abilities or render quality.  I just know that's what I see.  Now I have the old express version of Carrara but I couldn't bring myself to spend any real money on Daz software when they are so notorious for not supporting their software and massive delays to bug fixes.

I'd say if you play to really really learn C4d and get use out of ALL of its features, it is probably worth it.  But if you are only getting it for rendering than it is a HUGE pricetag for a very limited return.   

I don't know anything about Lux Renderer.  I may look into that myself.

oh and before anyone flames my post here, please remember that I am speaking from an inexperienced stand point and I just wanted to give input from this stage in the process.

Quote - oh and before anyone flames my post here, please remember that I am speaking from an inexperienced stand point and I just wanted to give input from this stage in the process.

Gosh, I hope no one flames you. The viewpoint of a newer user is absolutely useful. You make some very good points.

So, Vintorix and Wolf --

There are some huge differences in price and, presumably, features. If you were buying C4D now, at its current price levels, which version would you get?

 thanx for all the indepth responses. however as i am seeing right now poser and bryce will do just fine with what i am using it for .

basically i am on the impatient side, but as we all know good things take time. plus i am also starting to work with anime studio and iclone. so adding a new program to that like which jjroland(in answer to your query- i am relatively experienced several years under my belt) pointed out has a steep learning curve would be sort of overkill.

 i doubt anyone would "flame" someone regarding this specially on here.

again thanx for the responses

"There are some huge differences in price and, presumably, features. If you were buying C4D now, at its current price levels, which version would you get?"

HI as I stated earlier the Cheapest version of C4D (Prime) is $995 +Shipping
and does not even have GI  rendering ability.
so at a minmum if better/faster renders than poser is ones primary motivation
then C4Dprime is not a good value IMHO
the next version up is "broadcast" which has GI
and cost  $1700 USD.
to be brutally honest if I were a poser user with $1700 USD ready to spend on better rendering options I would not be looking at C4D at all .

I would Spend $600 of that  money on vue 10 complete
** http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_10_complete/**
it imports Poser pro 2012  scenes PZ3 both stills and animations with Dynamic cloth.
that would leave you with $1100 Dollars to spend on important stuff ...like Toothpaste,Soap, Deodorant & toilet paper.

Cheers

Vue? Yikes. I tried the demo version and it took hours to give me a tiny preview. I realize that my settings were probably completely out of whack, but it left me feeling traumatized.

If the point is to increase speed, above all, without sacrificing quality... is Vue really the answer?

(Also, given that it's a landscape renderer... I just bet that $1100 would disappear into content purchases for Vue in no time at all -- I need more self control.)

ETA: But I guess I did ask you what you would buy. Clearly, you're being sensible (which I appreciate tremendously).

Let me rephrase the question: if your boss were to ask what to buy for a business, with the understanding that, though the software would be tax deductible, cost efficiency is still always very desirable. Would you tell him/her the same thing?

There priced for studios.C4D upgrade don't hurt as much as Max ,Maya.
But still there upgrades kill ya ,Guess one could mortgage your soul.
If I ever win the lottery.

Thanks the CGI Gods for the free and afordable CGI App's

Some dude posted I got a job teaching how to model charaters ,so how do you model characters ? my responce got me put on probation at CGTalk ,so don't go there much.

But if anyone rags me i just ask them to show me there charaters and ill show them mine.it shuts them up.

I've alway thought app's don't matter.
Your passion and determanation to create the Art is what does.

"Let me rephrase the question: if your boss were to ask what to buy for a business, with the understanding that, though the software would be tax deductible, cost efficiency is still always very desirable. Would you tell him/her the same thing?"

Hi assuming we are still talking about trying to leverage our existing poser content into another application
for better renders overall I would still recommend VUE at this point based on the following
•Price $600 USD
• GI rendering
• Complete support for All poser formats including
•Dynamic cloth ,Hair and according to the website":
"The 3DImport module, also part of Vue 10 Complete, lets you import content created with other 3D applications. Thanks to 3DImport, Vue 10 Complete can read and import 3D objects in all popular formats, complete with texturing information.
This includes the ability to natively load static or animated Poser characters, re-pose them directly inside of Vue, and even render them using the Poser shading tree!"

Now if my company was looking to move up from poser to a better overall CG Package for a broader variety of uses (modeling ,motion graphics animation some light VFX stuff) ,but still really wanted to make frequent use of our poser/Daz content figures etc when needed.
but Did not want/Need GI rendering/IBL or "EZskin" or any bagginsbill shaders

Then yes I could recommend Maxon Cinema4D Prime for $995 USD + the interposer pro plugin for another $75 USD

"I've alway thought app's don't matter.
Your passion and determanation to create the Art is what does."

Hi please dont  be offended

But statements like this just do not stand up under the harsh light of reality
Look at a beautiful movie Like Avatar or the Avengers

There are very real reasons Why they did not just use Blender & GIIMP and alot of so called "passion" to produce that work.

Cheers

Shall I buy Cinema 4D for rendering isn't a good question. To buy a high-end modeler or not, that's the question. If you are serious about your hobby the answer must be yes, rendering being just one of many reasons. Then all that is left is deciding which one. 3ds max and Maya is certainly not cheaper. If you are a Poser guy, C4D is the obvious answer. It is also a little cheaper.

"Shall I buy Cinema 4D for rendering isn't a good question. To buy a high-end modeler or not, that's the question."

Tell me something.
How Do I bevel an Edge in cinema 4D without a third party plugin that may disappear or cease development
when, C4D R16 arrive in 24 months??

C4D is not a "high end modelor"
high end modelors can bevel edges
and the great majority of poser Consumers Do not create their own models.

"If you are a Poser guy, C4D is the obvious answer. It is also a little cheaper."

I respectfully Disagree. Again interposer pro is Awesome!! but it is a one man operation.
One poorly refrigerated shrimp salad and Poof !!..IPP stops at version 1.99s
and will no longer work for the  poser guy who finally saved up for C4D release 15 or 14.5

To buy $1700 dollar full application&$75 dollar plugin  just to render GI stills of Vicky&Mike& Mikki 5 or whatever, does not make good economic sense to me.
there are other alternatives to poser Firely that are more sensible IMHO

Cheers

Quote -
To buy $1700 dollar full application&$75 dollar plugin  just to render GI stills of Vicky&Mike& Mikki 5 or whatever, does not make good economic sense to me.
there are other alternatives to poser Firely that are more sensible IMHO

Well, whether it makes good economic sense requires a bit of arithmetic and an understanding of the individual's circumstances.

I'm self-employed and I don't work as many hours as I could. In fact, if I could put 600 hours in a week, there would still be work to do, and that work would, in all likelihood, increase my income. By how much, I'm not sure. If I were more ambitious, I'd do some more serious analysis. But suffice it to say: every minute I spend not working is money I am not making.

So, if I have to do 200 test images before I'm happy with final poses, lighting, camera angle, etc, and each test image takes an average of 5 minutes, I've spent 1000 minutes on test images. If I can halve that time, I've saved 500 minutes. On a single image.

How much is 500 minutes worth? Obviously, the answer is different for everyone. But if one makes, for example, $20/hour, it's .33/minute. So: $166.67 savings. On one single image.

Now for people who are working a set schedule, who cannot persuade their bosses to let them work 20 hours a day, the time savings don't correlate to money in such a direct way.

But you do see my point about speed being the primary issue I'm interested in, right?

ETA: Obviously the time spent learning new software has to be factored in, along with the time spent adjusting all the materials/shaders/etc. So if some of that can be avoided, it's very useful too. But the brute force speed of rendering is what I'm curious about. And I've never heard anyone describe Vue as a fast renderer. So I've been hesitant about it.

"ETA: Obviously the time spent learning new software has to be factored in, along with the time spent adjusting all the materials/shaders/etc. So if some of that can be avoided, it's very useful too. But the brute force speed of rendering is what I'm curious about. And I've never heard anyone describe Vue as a fast renderer. So I've been hesitant about it.
"
Well there is no denying that the Native render of Cinema4D would Crush Poser Firely in any Benchmark Speed/quality test GI or Non GI.
so if none of those other factors (such as loss of poser native skin shader mats etc)

and the cost are not a show stopper for you then indeed you should Buy a seat of Cinema4D

Hurry!! if you buy R13 right now you get a free upgrade to R14 which has already been announced and is available as a Demo.

Cheers

wolf359, 

I don't know what you do with C4D but rendering is not important for me, what I like most is to model. And if C4D is not a high-end modeler why is it that it is always included in new bridges or plugins? It is true that C4D doesn't have as much functions as 3ds max or Maya but what it can do it does 10x faster. And only the speed of the renderer makes it pay for itself in three months. It is the Roll-Royce of the modelers.

(C4D R13 has excellent SSS BTW).

Quote -
Well there is no denying that the Native render of Cinema4D would Crush Poser Firely in any Benchmark Speed/quality test GI or Non GI.
so if none of those other factors (such as loss of poser native skin shader mats etc)

and the cost are not a show stopper for you then indeed you should Buy a seat of Cinema4D

Hurry!! if you buy R13 right now you get a free upgrade to R14 which has already been announced and is available as a Demo.

Not quite a show stopper... more like a long queue and a big bouncer with a grim expression standing outside the theatre. Definitely makes you nervous enough to think twice. :)

Your information, though, has been very useful. Thank you.

"I don't know what you do with C4D but rendering is not important for me,"

I use it to render character animations  created in poser 6 but rendering is important to the people in this thread  hence the discussion sir.

"It is true that C4D doesn't have as much functions as 3ds max or Maya but what it can do it does 10x faster"

Not cloth! Mayas ncloth  is better just ask at the C4D forum at CG society
Poser  Pro even beats C4D Dynamic cloth
if you plan on doing anything form fitting like an evening gown etc again just  ask about Clothing simulation at the C4D forum at CG society they will tell you to go buy  Marvelous designer

what about character motion retarget
the retarget tag  in C4D  is a joke
it takes two hours for one rig.!!

compared to retargeting character motion with Mayas human IK system.
Even poser/DAZ can reuse motions( PZ2,aniblock BVH) on different figures better than C4D.

And what about fluids and Volumetric Smoke??
again Maya & MAX trumps C4D  in both areas
My old seat of Lightwave 9.6 with its Film & TV production proven  hypervoxel particle system does better than C4D latest release  in this area.

" It is the Roll-Royce of the modelers."
I own Modo 401 I must disagree with your claim there as well
but hey to each their own

Cheers

Quote - "I've alway thought app's don't matter.
Your passion and determanation to create the Art is what does."

Hi please dont  be offended

But statements like this just do not stand up under the harsh light of reality
Look at a beautiful movie Like Avatar or the Avengers

There are very real reasons Why they did not just use Blender & GIMP and alot of so called "passion" to produce that work.

I was referring to the hobbyist that don't have the Pro's bugget but thay have the passion to be a CGI Artist anyways even thou thay don't have the top of the line App's.

Now if I had a Hollywood Artist say lets use Blender & Gimp to make Batman The Dark Night.

I'd call arkham asylum let them know that I have the Joker working for me.
and thay should come get him cause he's fired.

new subject :

Over the years I've used truespace ,Lightwave ,XSI ,C4D ,

I've beed debating about getting Max or Maya.
I know both can do just about any thing so how do you compare them ?
What makes Max stand out ?
What makes Maya stand out ?
How would you all chose between them ?

What makes Max stand out ?
What makes Maya stand out ?
How would you all chose between them ?

Although you could do just about anything with either of theses programs (provided you commit to learning and have a modicum of talent) I came to the conclusion that Max is better for architectural previs while Maya is superior for character animation.

wolf359.

"I use it to render character animations"

I don't understand, it is the fastest render around don't you appreciate it? You must save a ton of time!

"Mayas ncloth is better just ask..what about character motion retarget"

C4D's Dynamic cloth is nothing to write home about but Marvelous Designer beats Maya/max any day. The best high-end app for cloth is the one that works best with Marvelous Designer IMO. And that is C4D. Only C4D can work with Poser files, bvh and mdd at the same time combining them as different tracks in the same timeline. Import bvh files from Poser/Daz/Carrara/Messiah, enhance in C4D, attach to a working Poser system in C4D. Export and import to and from Marvelous Designer with mdd while keeping your bone system intact, allawing you to still pose. No other system or combinations of systems can do that that I know of.

In addition we have Bodypaint for texturing cloth...

I am learning a lot from this thread.

Even thou Poser does not support Vector Displacement Maps yet.
If your Poser Mesh had a Vector Displacement Map and you sent it to C4D ,LW ,Maya ,Max,
would the Vector Displacement Map work in C4D ,LW ,Maya ,Max, ?

PoserFusion 2012 SR2 List C4D ,LW ,Maya ,Max
So I was thinking thay all where = with Poser ,
after Arhena post I don't think so.

Paloth ,now when did I say anything about me having talent
,luckly zBrush can even make me look good.

Ya AutoDesk doesn't seem to say a lot about Max n Characters.
But the only charaters at turbo as good as Vicky are for Max.
But it Seems like Maya is more for Characters.
and Max is a all pourpose App and you buy the plugs to customize Max to your needs.
or if your in to architecture you get Max Design.
Don't want to spend a lot on plugs but don't know if Maya has every thing you need.

Learning curve on yout first CGI app is high,
After that just got to learn where the buttons are.
Thay all have polygones ,Rigs ,UV's ,Textue ect ect.

"True it does render a lot faster than Poser but I have also had it crash far more than Poser. Using C4d 10.5 Interposer Pro and PP2012" 

Haven't had a chance to use C4D in a long time, but it was always very stable for me (R10.1) and that was on an old Duron 1GHz - 512MB. Then again, I never had a problem with any version of DS either, maybe because of using an ancient video card as well :-)

"I do love the speed of Carraras renders BUT I think the quality is lacking."

That's always been my impression as well, but I think a lot of it is down to learning the lighting etc. Dustrider has some very nice Carrara renders.

I don't know Maxon's policy on lic. transfers but I do see C4D on EBay so perhaps an older version might be a less expensive option.

I agree with Wolf that Vue probably is the best bang for the buck. AFAIK, it's about the only option that will allow you to use Poser shaders - though you have to have the resources to run Poser in tandem with Vue. I have no idea how the rendering speed would compare but Vue supports easy network rendering of still images (whick AFAIK Poser doesn't). It may not do the Poser shader thing on network renders, again no idea there.

"(Also, given that it's a landscape renderer... I just bet that $1100 would disappear into content purchases for Vue in no time at all -- I need more self control.)" 

I have some free plants and atmospheres but mostly I use the included content, create terrains etc. For buildings, vehicles etc I use the Poser ones or import other 3D formats.

""I use it to render character animations"

I don't understand, it is the fastest render around don't you appreciate it? You must save a ton of time!
"

Yes I do appreciate the speed of the C4D render engine
But I also have Vray for C4D which is even faster with better quality but I am primarily an animator.

One who stopped rendering finals in poser back in the days of P4 and Bryce3D version 3
I have Zero need or interest in bagginsbills procedural poser shaders/envirospheres for firefly or Snargly Gribbly's EZskin or anything that involves using poser to render my scenes.

But this is the poser forum and most poser users Do use firefly
Dependent shaders/lighting schemes.

I just want to mask sure they are fully informed about the reality of Dumping firely entirely and rendering everything in C4D before they run off and spend nearly $2000 USD expecting results to look just like it did in poser with poser preset mats ..but just Five times faster.

"C4D's Dynamic cloth is nothing to write home about but Marvelous Designer beats Maya/max any day."

As well it should ,it is a purpose built Dynamic clothing Simulator.
just as My Seat of Nextlimit's RealFlow beats the native fluids of Maya any Day for the same reason.

"Only C4D can work with Poser files, bvh and mdd at the same time combining them as different tracks in the same timeline. Import bvh files from Poser/Daz/Carrara/Messiah, enhance in C4D, attach to a working Poser system in C4D. Export and import to and from Marvelous Designer with mdd while keeping your bone system intact, allawing you to still pose. No other system or combinations of systems can do that that I know of."

Agreed In fact C4D  is the best gateway to get poser content not only into C4D for rendering but to send poser content to other CG apps as well.
Because of Interposer Pro's ability to Bake animated poser figure to PLA
I send them to RealFlow4 and have water interact with them and bring the fluid sim back into C4D for rendering and have it match the poser figure.

I can send my animated figures with textures to my seat of MODO 401 because MODO supports MDD as well.
and I can send baked animated poser meshes to my old seat of Lightwve3D 9.6  to insert into scenes with lightwaves volumetric Hypervoxel particle systems.

However the thread OP DID not ask about any of this high end VFX Cross program Animation/simulation stuff ,

which is why I only spoke bluntly about the cost benefit realities of poser user leaving posers native render system entirely just for faster still images

Cheers

p.s C4D has a 45 Day Demo and interposer pro  has a demo  so poser users should try both to see if the pipeline is suitable for thier needs

Unfortunately, using Poser shaders in Vue will not get EZ skin to render. It won't even load a specular map. Maybe there's a trick to using it, but in my experience you'll be lucky if you get all of your texture maps.

I should correct my last statement. I'm seeing something like EZ skin in Vue 10 with the Poser shader. It's dropping my face texture map, but that's probably a system specific issue.

could we see some Poser figures rendered with C4D?

cause tbh, in the way of figure rendering i havent seen anything so far that makes me think i need to rush out and spend $1775 to keep up.  if youre into product visualization, vehicles/sci-fi and more technical renders, perhaps - but then youre not using Poser to begin with.  really im not interested in seeing the best C4D renders done by professionals handpicked from the C4D gallery or CGTalk:   I'd like to see the renders of the typical Poser user who switched to rendering in C4D and suddenly started producing significantly better work.

everybodys in search of some new renderer thats going to magically make their gallery better. i suggest people start by learning the tools already at their fingertips.  a perfect example is people jonesing for Zbrush when they have not even loaded the Poser Morphing Tool a single time.

@ Blackhearted

You are sooooo right.
Knowing your tools is far more important than the cost of your tools.

IM (very unskilled) O, you should think carefully when considering any other render engine if the primary focus of your images is Poser figures. That is even more true today with the newer versions of Poser with SSS and utilities like EZSkin. I'm fairly happy with SkinVue and I'm sure the newer versions included now with Vue are even better. I seldom do portrait or closeup images though and the environment is usually a significant part of the image.

With most other render engines, AFAIK, you're going to have to roll your own skin solution or look for something that works. I read comments a few years ago by some C4D users saying that Cinema is lacking in that area compared to MentalRay. There are utilities like Vreel Skin for C4D especially for skin. I don't know how the Lux translators handle skin and hair. Of course, absent a good translator, you're going to have to create your own shaders for clothing, props etc. as well once you go beyond bitmap textures. That is perhaps less of an issue since there are usually a lot of free and commercial shaders for architectural, automotive, environmental etc. purposes.

So I would say that you can't simply look at speed without also looking at the type of images you usually render and how much work it's going to be to recreate shaders, the added cost of add-ons etc. Are you going for photo-realism? Do you do a lot of postwork?

For an emphasis on human figures, Poser and DAZ Studio are good solutions for many people. If you want great landscapes with figures, you may choose Vue. If you want primarily arch/viz with figures then some flavor of VRay or any number of other programs may do the job. Unbiased fans can go with Kerkythea, Lux, Maxwell etc. Each has their advantages and drawbacks. The old adage, 'fast, good, cheap - pick any two' usually applies. Poser would be well served to make network rendering of still images easier. That would address the speed issue for some users.

"I'd like to see the renders of the typical Poser user who switched to rendering in C4D and suddenly started producing significantly better work."

I assume that's a rhetorical since it's kind of like asking to see the typical X user who switched to rendering in Poser (or any program) and suddenly started producing significantly better work. I understand your (and Vilters) point about using what you have. It's probably foolish to invest in something new without fully exploring your current tools. OTOH, a different application may be more powerful and even easier to use in some ways. So, rush to buy something - no, but try something, absolutely. In that sense, looking at what the best examples is the only way to see what an application is capable of producing. You still need to look at what it's going to take to achieve that level of quality to see if it's worth the improvement in terms of time and/or money.

my point was that if someone is pushing the boundaries of poser and starting to hit the limits of the poser renderer, i can understand them wanting to render in another renderer.

but there are very few people pushing the boundaries. and if youre not, switching to C4D is as likely to make your renders look worse as it is to make them better.

if you cant coax a good render out of Poser you wont automatically fare any better in C4D.

Obviously Poser's render engine has made great improvements since the P4 days, especially with Mr. BB's help.

Attached is a Lightwave render with radiosity, LW with volumetric and then a Poser render. Not an exact comparison but the effort it takes to get a Poser scene into LW gives Poser the edge most of the time with me for connivence's sake. ^ ^

"... but there are very few people pushing the boundaries. and if youre not, switching to C4D is as likely to make your renders look worse as it is to make them better."

I agree for the most part but, as I said, "...a different application may be more powerful and even easier to use in some ways." Personally, I find Vue'smaterials interface easier to understand than Firefly's, ditto render settings. Am I pushing Poser's boundaries there - no, nor Vue for that matter, but for me it amounts to a more enjoyable and more productive experience and subjectively, better results.  By the same token, I've seen better landscapes/atmospheres from Carrara than I've managed to produce, so I know the program is capable but ... I get better results more easily with Vue. It's not about squeezing the last atom out of application A if I can use application B with much less effort for the same result. There's nothing wrong with the former if that suits you :-)

"my point was that if someone is pushing the boundaries of poser and starting to hit the limits of the poser renderer, i can understand them wanting to render in another renderer."

And hitting the limit of posers rendering power will happen the very moment you become serious about rendering Animation with actual 3D Environments with  Characters interacting dynamicly with their environments
SAMPLE

or rendering flicker free GI/ IDL
within your lifetime
SAMPLE

Both video samplesl are C4D AR3 BTW

"but there are very few people pushing the boundaries. and if youre not, switching to C4D is as likely to make your renders look worse as it is to make them better."

I am a render engine Junkie ..I admit this freely.

I have access to the Following render engines (although not the latest versions) :
Smith micro-Poser 6 (never use except to previs
character animation to check for errors)

Daz studio 2.3.6 "3D delight*( never used as it crashes immediately when I hit render on OSX)*

Maxon Cinema4D R11 Studio- internal AR3
Chaos Group- Vray for Cinema4D
Luxology- MODO 401
Newtek -Lightwave 3D 9.6 internal
MindBerry Kray-2 for Lightwave 9.6
Nextlimit- Maxwell 1.7
Eon-Vue 6
Blender -2.5 internal.

Now I must be blunt and this is not to disparage poser users for what they choose to render and post online.
Excluding Daz studio I could take the time to cook myself up a very nice SSS skin shaders in blenders node based shader system
lightwaves node based shader system
or MODO's excellent  &fast SSS solutions or anyone of the above mentioned engines.

Import naked or bikini /clad V-chick
place camera set lighting GI or standard
render,post to web gallery
So what!!.. in the end its just another naked poser chick Except that you have spent way more money to  acheive that same boring objective as some poor fellow who can only afford poser 9.

So if the majority of one srenders are doing Semi naked/naked people just sitting still in a largely empty universe then switching to C4D,Vray  etc etc even with Good SSS& hair etc solutions
and continuing to produce such renders is an utterly pointless exercise IMHO no matter the speed increases.

Cheers

Blackhearted,

If you plan to buy a high-end modeler anyway for whatever reason, a Poser user is best served by C4D IMO.

But,

If you are a hobby user rendering Poser faces stills it isn't worth the trouble, that goes without saying.

As usual as everywhere else in the world, there is a difference depending on ambition.

"Attached is a Lightwave render with radiosity, LW with volumetric and then a Poser render. Not an exact comparison but the effort it takes to get a Poser scene into LW gives Poser the edge most of the time with me for connivence's sake. ^ ^

Hi please understand this is not a personal attack just an objective observation.
Those images posted are a perfect example of what I just described above.
Skin-hair prop- empty universe.
no other surfaces to redirect your GI bounces to the figure

They tell the viewer Nothing about
Lightwaves rendering ability...Nothing
or its long history of production proven rendering ability in shows like recent Battle Star Galactica or Frank Millers "300"
 
This is not to say everyone needs to be doing big VFX shots/animations for TV& Film .

But this is what these pro apps are built to do
and why they cost so much compared to poser.

Why buy C4D or Lightwave and replicate the vestigial look of poser circa 1997???
I dont understand this

Cheers

Actually, those are renders from 2006. ^ ^

But the LW ones look like what people were doing with poser in the 1990's.

IMHO they dont represent anywhere near LW's capabilities

even back then .

Cheers

Quote - my point was that if someone is pushing the boundaries of poser and starting to hit the limits of the poser renderer, i can understand them wanting to render in another renderer.

but there are very few people pushing the boundaries. and if youre not, switching to C4D is as likely to make your renders look worse as it is to make them better.

if you cant coax a good render out of Poser you wont automatically fare any better in C4D.

In my case, it's not to make them look better. It's to make the render faster.

I love firefly. But because the preview is so wildly different from the final render, many test renders are needed before a scene is ready to go. This takes a ridiculous amount of time, and time is money. Also, I'm not as young as I used to be. ;) Time runs out eventually. Sometimes before the money.

Quote -
So if the majority of one srenders are doing Semi naked/naked people just sitting still in a largely empty universe then switching to C4D,Vray  etc etc even with Good SSS& hair etc solutions
and continuing to produce such renders is an utterly pointless exercise IMHO no matter the speed increases.

Well, all hobbies are kinda pointless, aren't they?

I mean, few hobbyists are producing top quality anything. Not many beer league hockey players making it into the NHL. Not many part time weekend watercolour painters featured in the Met.

In the vast scheme of things, $1775 for a piece of equipment is not much. Some hobbies are far, far more expensive. Ask any photographer. I've spent more on a single lens. And I ain't Ansel Adams. Does that mean that what I do is utterly pointless? Because I spent money on something I enjoy but the results don't meet your artistic standards?

"This takes a ridiculous amount of time"

Exactly so.

As usual moriador is right to the point. I believe most things are possible in Poser if you are willing to give it the tine. But this is not practical in the real world. Most Poser users use an insane amount of time on the render, time which I am not willing to give. And if you are saying that experience will shorten the trial time look at bagginsbill, no one uses as much time on his renderings as him. And you can hardly say that he is inexperienced. ;)