I’ve finished what I think of as the “First Stage” of my attempt to create stockings that are painted onto a figure’s texture map. Over the next week I hope to refine the image, so it looks better in close-up, and add a few realistic touches, like wrinkles at the heel, ankle, knee, and top welt. I’ve experimented a bit with Bagginbill’s amazing stocking shader, which creates a very realistic sheen, but unfortunately it seems to cover the entire leg and not just the stocking. I’m going to look at the nodes in the Material Room—something I know nothing about—to see what I can do there. Or I may try to add the sheen in Photoshop, and see if it translates well into Poser. I figure I’ll have more specific questions to ask next week, so I’ll be looking for your help again.

Meanwhile, here are a couple examples. I also did a seven second video, just for the sheer pleasure of not having to worry about poke-throughs. You can see it on the opening page of my personal website ( http://dnstuefloten.com ) if you want to look. I’ll have more complex examples later, after I get this thing refined. I’ll also make my  Photoshop file, with all its layers, available if anyone wants to use it…..Don

You can't add sheen or any other highlight in photoshop - it would be stuck in one position. Highlights move with the viewer, the figure, and the light source.

You should not be drawing the stocking - you should draw a mask only - something that can be used to modulate a shader that has skin and skin+nylon. Then you can change color, opacity, and everything else on the fly.

I always meant to do this mask but I never did. I'm not very much into hand drawing.

Forgot to say, that I like what you drew - very nice.

That IS nice...and better than leg make-up on the collar!  (Yes, I know that's an incredibly old joke...)

Yeah, I too hate leg make-up on my collar...but I do like old jokes!

You should not be drawing the stocking - you should draw a mask only - something that can be used to modulate a shader that has skin and skin+nylon. Then you can change color, opacity, and everything else on the fly.

Bagginsbill, you know a lot more about these things than I do. Can I draw a mask in Poser? or create one in Photoshop, and apply it somehow, in Poser, to the figure? That sounds like a wonderful possibility, if only I knew how to proceed! You'll have to point me in a direction....

Meanwhile, I'll trudge along on this route to my "Second Stage." I figure I can add a sheen to the whole stocking--I recognize this wont shift highlights around, which maybe I'll investigate in Stage Three, but it will help differentiate the stocking from the skin. In video, with everything moving, it would be nice to have changing highlights and who knows what more--changing reflections? Mirror legs? I could get carried away here!

I assume you drew what you have on top of a skin texture. If you have that as a separate layer, and change underneath to white instead of skin color, that's a mask. It's a pattern of something - in this case a pattern of white where skin is naked, black where covered by the most opaque nylon, something in between for the other areas.

These values - 1 = white, 0 = black, can be used for blending colors, shine, etc.

The idea is to mark, in an image, places that are different materials, using white and black (or even gradients to indicate degree) and then use these as masks and blending factors on the parameters of a shader.

The most common thing is to set the shader up with two completely unrelated materials, as nodes, and then blend between them, creating a single material that appears to be two different substances.

Thank you, Bagginsbill, for taking the time to go through this. I more or less follow what you show me--I know something of masks from Photoshop and Premiere--but I really know nothing of shaders, how they work or how to blend them in nodes in Poser. There must be some tutorials here at Renderosity, or elsewhere, that will start me off at the beginning--or perhaps you can recommend one? I'll start looking. I can see that using a shader to simulate the nylon surface of a stocking-over-flesh is going to be the best system, but is is probably going to be the final flourish in what I am doing. Even with a shader, we need a darker welt at the top and at the heel, with some kind of texture, and various wrinkle details. As I understand it, the shader will provide the glistening translucent surface--over these details. Is that right?

I figure over the next week I'll continue refining and detailing while I start a study of the basics of nodes and shaders.......Don

I see a bunch of stuff in the sticky section above, tutorials/explanations for the material room, nodes, shaders, but many of the links are broken, at least at the beginning. I found this one, which looks quite extensive (with your--BB's--contiributions)--

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=2778165&ebot_calc_page#message_2778165

--and I guess I'll start digging in.

One note about masks. I presume I can mask off the non-nylon surface of a leg, the part above the stocking, and then apply your shader to it? Thus sleeking and shimmering the nylon surface but leaving the flesh as it was. Is that right? I'll be looking more into this as I continue.....Don

In CGI in general, and Poser in particular, a map is just a way of specifying what happens at a particular point on a UV mapped surface: be it colour, transparency or something more sophisticated when used to drive nodes in the material room.

So your map would specify which parts of the leg are skin (use the character's1 original material); stocking (use nylon shader which modifies the skin) and so on.

Good work on the painting, especially if that's Victoria 4. Her mapping makes stocking seams very difficult to draw - I've tried. 

Try a setup like In used here to put the corset on.

The trick is to blend the corset/stockings texture with the figures texture using a Blender node.

Notice that you can control the "shine" with the Blinn node as I did.

That you can create a displacement map inside Poser and a mask, all from the original texture,  to get some thickness in the stockings too.

And !!! You can change the color of the corset/stockings inside the Blender too !!!!!

Happy Posering
Tony

Thanks, EnglishBob and Vilters, for the intriguing information. Right now I am re-drawing the texture--I had used a 3000x3000 map, and I've decided a 4000x4000 would be better for the detailing. I'll also use a different technique in Photoshop to see if I can make the lines more precise. 

Then I'll tackle the material room. After I get that working, I think I'll continue and add a garter belt or corset the same way, properly connected with an elastic strap, with added tension on the stocking, etc. I see from Vilter's example how this can be done.....very amusing....

Oh, and another question. How do you guys get your personal links at the bottom of your message? If I use the "Attachments" space to add a link, it goes to the top of this message. I'm typing my links below this now, but that clearly isnt the same as you are doing.......Don

http://dnstuefloten.com

http://evidenceofalostcity.com

http://hagmovie.com

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/index.php?my_options

Go to Forums > My Forum Options (or just follow my link) and fill in the signature section there. You're limited to a certain number of characters - can't remember how many off-hand - and be aware that some members will have chosen not to view signatures, so don't refer to links in your signature on the assumption that everyone can see them.

I think I'm catching on.  All I need to do is create a layer that covers the legs with what ever color I want the stockings, set the visibility to about 40%, and apply it when I want the stockings?

Yes and no. If you want realistic, that isn't enough.

The shader I made that does nylon on skin is much more than what you just said.

The point of the mask is to define where to apply that shader's tactic of simulating nylon, and by what opacity.

If somebody would just draw for me the mask I could show you how to use it. But everybody wants to be a shader designer too.

It took me years.

Just draw the mask. White - no nylon. Gray - thin layer of nylon. Black - completely opaque nylon. If you want two different in-between opacities, then use two shades of gray.

Once you give me a usable mask, I'll wire it up, and then give it back. Then you can tweak the mask all you want.

BB, once again, your generosity is legendary.  Give me a few days of not having to grade and edit essays and I'll get on it.  Thanks.

I'll work on one too, BB. Thanks.

Well, Mr BB, I've spent most of the day trying to make this image as sharp as possible, not an easy or altogether satisfactory task, but I think this is a decent result. Now I've turned it into a black and white jpg. (Or do you need a png?) Anyway, there's a strip of white at the top (flesh, no nylon), then a couple of dark welts, a light gray for the main leg (with some shading), and the seam and heel in dark gray/black. I hope it will work. 

I've noticed when others post an image, it is usually possible to click on it to see a larger version. I couldnt figure out how to do that, and the full size is pretty big, so this is just a small image. The full-sized image is here: http://evidenceofalostcity.com/stockingtest/stockingtest.html

I hope youll take a look at this. If I did it wrong, let me know. If it's right, I'd be delighted for you to work your magic on it. And thank you again for your time...Don

http://evidenceofalostcity.com/stockingtest/stockingtest.html

OK...Here is the full image, 400x400, in b&w...I hope it works.....Don

Getting closer. But you have gray drawn above the welt. That's going to make nylon where you don't want it.

This is the same shader in all three - I just choose what color and opacity I want on the fly in a couple parameter nodes.

Another thing about your mask - you're not drawing gray you're grayscaling a skin texture. First of all, that's not what I want - I want smooth gray. Second, that's a derivative work and is a copyright violation. An innocent one, but still - don't do that.

Also, you probably want to finish it past the heel.

Notice the bumpy texture? That's because you have variations in brightness due to grayscaling a skin texture. I'm applying a small displacement to offset the nylon from skin, but the deviations in brightness of the mask are manifesting as deviations in displacement.

It should be smooth, solid patches of black/gray.

OK, I'll get back at it tomorrow...

Meanwhile, I saw that I'd forgotten to remove the gray at the top for the complete image...did a quick change, re-uploaded it. But it's just for one leg--I'll have to do the other too.

And I'll paint a smooth color over the texture map?

The texture map is for a figure I bought and am using--I cant alter the texture map? I can just use the original DAZ V4 map, I suppose--it wont  matter since it'll be covered with a smooth layer. Again, I'll do it tomorrow. Sorry--I just assumed since I'd bought the figure I could use the texture map as I wished...

The stockings look great in your quick rendering. Wow. What a difference...Don

You can use the original Daz V4 map for your own use, but you can't publish a derivative of it. No matter what the process, if the pattern of light and dark derives from the use of any sort of filter on the original texture, it is a derivative work, and you do not have the right to distribute derivative works. Publishing on a web page is distributing.

Nor do I want those variations in there. We're making a control mask - an indication of the density of the fabric. If you have deviations in there, it results in deviations of the fabric density and height, which will look wrong.

This mask is not skin, in any way. So any aspect of skin, such as blemishes or color variations of any kind, do not belong in it.

The only changes in gray level should be because you have different weave density.

The V4 texture templates can be downloaded  here under the Resource Files tab.  Build your mask in a new layer over it... 

http://www.daz3d.com/shop/victoria-4-2-base/

The seam is realy turning out well...

I've got the V4 templates, thanks, WandW. And BB, now I've uploaded the masks. This time I used the DAZ V4 template, and built the mask over it. Then I erased all the template, so there is just the mask of the two legs. I used a smooth gray color, too, instead of skin. Youll see it here again--

http://evidenceofalostcity.com/stockingtest/stockingtest.html

I presume the copyright issue is that the templates/skin maps cant be reproduced and placed anywhere available to anyone else? I've removed them from that page (not that anyone would ever stumble onto them, except from here). The mask now on the page, although "derived" from the template, is okay, right? Or should I jerk it off the page after you get it?

Anyway, there is more to be done, of course. I'll experiment with levels of grayness--the heel indeed should be a lighter shade. I want to finish the under-foot, tho that looks complicated--the underside of the foot seems to twist around in strange ways. And I havent added the wrinkles yet. And then I want to make different heel and welt treatments. And then a garterbelt, a girdle, a corset, which means fooling around with the torso and lining up straps and creating all sorts of new textures, although they probably wouldnt need a shader like the nylon stockings. But I can do all the experimenting with the shader in place, right? It will adapt to the different shades of gray as I change them? 

Well, BB, I look forward to experimenting and playing with all these things, especially the nodes in the Material Room. Thanks again for all your help!

I also tried it in conjunction with Tempest's sock toe figure, but although it can use a V4 limb texture, it is mapped quite differently. I suppose a template would need to be made; can uvmapper do that?...

Thanks, WandW...that will help a lot!

Quote - I used the DAZ V4 template, and built the mask over it. Then I erased all the template, so there is just the mask of the two legs.

I see you're using Photoshop, so you have layers available to you. I'd suggest you have the template on one layer, then do your painting on another. When you're finished, set the template layer's visibility to zero and export the map you've painted. Save the project as a PSD so you can go back to it later.

Many people have the template as the frontmost layer, with the transparency turned down so it acts as a guide but doesn't get in the way of what you're doing. 

Quote - I presume the copyright issue is that the templates/skin maps cant be reproduced and placed anywhere available to anyone else? I've removed them from that page (not that anyone would ever stumble onto them, except from here). The mask now on the page, although "derived" from the template, is okay, right?

A template is a functional item which exists only to make derivative works from, so you don't need to worry about that. However things like Snowsultan's seam guides have had value added to them so shouldn't be redistributed or incorporated into your own work without permission. Any work you do with their help is fine. (I am not a lawyer!)

Yeah, I use Photoshop. Right now on this project I have twelve layers--different ones for different parts (heel treatment, welts, seam, etc). But when I turned the psd (after saving it) into a jpg, merging it all down, I'd forgotten to make the template invisible, so I erased the arms and other stuff there, leaving just the legs. Sometimes my mind gets a little foggy. I'm working on the sole and toes of the stocking/foot at the moment, now there is a tangle of lines, and I'm trying to cover the toes exactly at the point the shoe hits them...going back and forth, Poser to Photoshop...and the fog is creeping in....

Ugh. Just learned a few hours ago that I'll be traveling the next three days.

So I have to post a few quick notes and hope you can make some sense of it.

Those of you new to materials and nodes may find this overwhelming.

I'm hoping that others may chime it with help.

If you use EZSkin, this is pretty close to done. There will be something going into Alternate_Diffuse and Alternate_Specular.

You need to combine those things in a Color_Math:Add node like this.

The Blender was going to Alternate_Diffuse. The Blinn was going to Alternate_Specular.

This is pretty simple.

A Diffuse node and an Anisotropic specular node like this work pretty good. Combine with Color_Math:Add.

The red arrow points to where you pick the nylon color. I'm using black.

The arrow covered the Diffuse Value - it should be .8.

We now have two different shaders - skin and nylon.

Now comes the blending of them.

The Blending value is offscreen - it will decide the ratio of these two shaders based on the stocking mask and the angle of incidence.

The mask goes into a Math:Bias node. This is not required, but I find it handy. The Value_2 in the Bias can be used to adjust the ratio of white/gray/black. The value of .5 is neutral and doesn't change it. Raise it to make the mask lighter. Lower it to make the mask darker.

The Edge_Blend, Math:Divide, and Math:Pow nodes calculate the effective opacity of the nylon due to overlapping fibers. This is a simplified version of the full equation I posted in  a long nylon thread a while back. Search for BBNylon to find it.

The Math:Subtract is calculating the complement of that to give opacity. I could have reversed the Blend node inputs and skipped that, but in this form it allows the Blender:Blending value to be a master opacity control.

Original skin shader into first Blender input.

Nylon shader into second Blender input.

Mask with edge density calculator and opacity inverter goes into the third Blender input.

I did not have time to extend this to all the necessary material zones.

You may find that re-grouping the mesh is helpful here. We don't need separate zones for leg, ankle, foot, and toe, left and right. That's a big waste of time.

You can use the grouping tool to re-assign materials and make this one zone.

Alternatively, there is the possibility of setting up a VSS template for all this.

Or - maybe SnarlyGribbly will put this shader network into EZSkin.

There is more to do but it's optional. I will be able to discuss more when I return:

• displacement of nylon by a tiny amount - about 2/100ths of an inch

• a procedural bump using weave - suppression of existing skin bump

• more accurate nylon density equation

• easier to use shine/opacity/denier parameters (right now you have to know how to tweak nodes instead of nylon)

Rapt Attention...

Well, the result is spectacular. I'll start trying to unravel the instructions (youre talking to someone who knows nothing of these nodes) and see if I can get it to work. Quite fascinating, these techniques. Thanks for all your time and knowledge, Bagginsbill....and enjoy your trip....Don

Quote - There is more to do but it's optional. I will be able to discuss more when I return:

• displacement of nylon by a tiny amount - about 2/100ths of an inch

• a procedural bump using weave - suppression of existing skin bump

• more accurate nylon density equation

• easier to use shine/opacity/denier parameters (right now you have to know how to tweak nodes instead of nylon)

Is it time yet? I really like the way you explained how to link things together, for some reason it sort of clicked this time.