Any suggestions, methods, or links to discussions on this are welcome.

Thanks

In the case of having to modify the object mesh, it's easier to change the OBJ while leaving the PP2 simply to refer to the external OBJ.  With embedded geometry, it means having to re-import the modified OBJ and set it up as a PP2 all over again (including shaders).

Makes sense, Editing the .pp2 in a text editor I imagine. Simple or complicated (Which is a really relative question)?

Personally speaking, I found it simple enough to use external OBJ.  Let's hear from other people about their views.

As above, it makes further editing of the geometry much simpler. Also some folks may want to use the geometry in other applications and this saves them loading the prop in Poser and exporting out the file.

Wouldn't there be a large memory saving if the obj were used multiple times in a scene? And wouldn't the pz3 file be much smaller? I would think so.

An example would be pillars in a temple, or flowers in a field.

If the prop is intended for distribution wouldn't simply including the .obj (as many do) with the .pp2 cover it's usage in other applications? With my own props I utilize the original .obj or simply export from the final .pp2 (taking care to save the materials for re-application).

I can see the advantages of simplification, as PhilC mentioned though...

Perhaps I'm confusing advantage with option?

There are a couple of programs available to strip the geometry from embedded files, but usually you would need to create a UV map for texturing purposes.  Recently, I analyzed a prop within Poser which just didn't look correct texturally.  It had an embed geometry.  Once I stripped it out and imported it into UVMapper Pro, it was obvious to me why the textures looked whacky.  The mapping needs to be redone to bring it up to my satifaction.

You can extract the OBJ data manually - think VP or cocs.com has a tutorial for this, or with software. With some extraction software the .OBJ can be made smaller as well. Extract Embedded Geometry By Dimension 3d does this.

@ hborre... Christ, It wasn't my prop freebie was it?! Simple planar for a very rudimentary prop. (sweat beads). the only distortion on the UV I discovered were when the object was used beyond it's intention or at extreme morph values. Sorry OT.

@ mrsparky, are you referring to decimation? I'll look around for those tutorials and the dimension 3d script. Surprised I don't have that one?

I imagine stripping out the geometry would be a moot point if you already have the original .obj, though?

No, it wasn't yours, LOL.  If you already have the original .obj then stripping out a second geom is not necessary.  D3D has a geom stripper in his Tool package; handy little script.

@hborre- (Wipes brow) Yikes, you had me going there for a second. :)

mrsparky, are you referring to decimation? Nope. Decimation takes place in the modelling stage. The dimension 3d tool (same one as hborre mentions) is used to extract OBJ's from a .CR2 or .PP2. Not sure how but squish an OBJ well nicely. Never sure what affect it has in poser, but not saving vertexes in UVmapper can make meshes smaller as well.

If the UV mapping of an embedded geometry is well laid out, changing textures is a breeze.  However, if an individual does not take the time to create a proper map, redressing your obj with a new texture can become a nightmare.  I would rather work with a separate obj file; at least changing textures will not increase my frustration.

mmm, I see. I had a discussion with Lesbently about this a while back when I was a little more soaking wet behind the ears...

I imagine the process would remove delta and material information embedded in the .obj file if IRC. Net effect, smaller scene files as mentioned earlier. I've had some luck with decimation and tesselation using carrara and wings (the modelers I use); Mainly as experimentation and in order to convert freebie models from tri's to quads and in attempts to make them more Poser friendly and appealing to my eye. For personal use only (considering recent contentious threads here on the forum... nuff said).

Just recently dicovered how to use UVMapper to remove UV mapping from models, nice way to be able to backtrack if you want an unmapped version of your model but don't have the original anymore.

I think its much more beneficial to use an external object. Having said that tho, sometimes I'm lazy and don't bother to set it up. LOL

Laurie

It really makes a difference in a PZ3 scene file.  Recently I'd set up an animation involving a prop with lots of complicated shaders changing color in the animation.  Then I wanted to show the same pattern with a differently-shaped prop.  I was able to build a new OBJ with the same zones, and simply change the name in the PZ3. 

With embedded geom, I would have needed to save the whole animation, delete the prop, and re-copy the animation to the new prop with a custom script. 

On Roy G's point: this was discussed a long time ago and I tested speed and memory use with a repeated reference to one OBJ, vs many internal copies of the same OBJ.  I think it was a stairway with repeated bannisters.  Surprisingly, the speed and memory were just a little bit WORSE with the repeated references.  That was P4, could be different now.  

So performance isn't a good reason for external OBJ, but convenience certainly is.

 I often set up many of my poser scene elements in wings because I find the tools easier to use than trying to manipulate objects in Poser, so I do a lot of exporting and importing of obj's from various poser files (e.g. after posing a figure for instance I'll export it out of poser and convert it to a prop). I find this method works well for me, and have yet to encounter any downsides to the process... It does require some preparation and foresight, though.

Increases performance with Poser on my machine with this method, too. At least with figures that have a lot of deformers and morphs and such.

"On Roy G's point: this was discussed a long time ago and I tested speed and memory use with a repeated reference to one OBJ, vs many internal copies of the same OBJ.  I think it was a stairway with repeated bannisters.  Surprisingly, the speed and memory were just a little bit WORSE with the repeated references.  That was P4, could be different now."

Good to know, I do that occasionally... Create a single group from multiple objects via export. Not sure how this effects performance but translation and rotations are easier.

Edit- If I'm understanding the comment correctly?

Edit2- Reread, now I understand...

sorry for the burst of OT.

I don’t remember if a prop can refer to multiple .obj files, if it can, then in theory you could have different temples incorporating the same stone tablet or column without duplicating it inside every prop. Modifying the geometry file would update it in every prop that utilized it.

Including it as a separate file is probably the best way to go. When zipped, it probably isn’t going to add substantially to the package size. It might cause some confusion for those who don’t know what the extra file is for, so I'd note it in the documentation. Most of the users who would be using the geometry in a different application or modifying it for Poser probably know how to extract it, but there are probably a few who don’t and its still an extra step – and an extra application, unless you do it manually.

If you use referencing, (and the .obj isn’t going to be referenced by multiple files), I don’t necessarily see a post P4 reason to put it in the geometries folder – as opposed to putting it with the .pp2. It makes things easier to move/uninstall by having them together. In P4 IIRC, the geometry cache .rsr could overwrite the thumbnail .rsr unless the name was different from the .pp2, e.g. bottle.pp2 and bottle_g.obj.

The seed (was going to say genesis, but that's a loaded term in certain circles) of the original question was a comment made in regard to some props I ran across wherein the author stated that

"Prop files now have the geometry seperated. This should now make them load faster and save memory".

My thoughts were always for the seperate .obj to be a courtesy to those who wished to more easily use the model in other software. Judging from the responses, this is still the case I guess.

not sure why - but  external geometry has always been a requirement for most poser stores. my guess is dates back to the p4 days when memory was tight more than external useage.

usually objs contained within runtimes don't have a coressponding mtl file either, which some apps like when importing stuff.

So usually when exporting to other apps the trick is export the whole scene from poser, copy all the required texures from your runtime into the same folder as that exported  obj/mtl file. Then import that combo into your desired app.

Which I belive is related to the way paths are written to the mtl file. not a poser flaw more how the mtl is a little extra.

Like mrsparky mentioned, I have a Geometry Stripper software program available for free at Vanishing Point. It's for Windows 98 and above, though it hasn't been tested on Windows 8. ;)

Anyway, props should have obj files to conserve memory: when you load the same prop into the scene multiple times, Poser only has to reference one set of geometry coordinates.

Plus, mapping programs like UV Mapper can only read obj files, not pp2 or cr2 files. This makes it easier for people to create their own templates or change the mapping.

Props can reference multiple obj files, which comes in handy if you're making a room model with tables and chairs.

Poser generated .mtl file in the Geometries folder. Makes sense.

I was talking with LaurieA about geometry stripper some time ago... unfortunately I'm a pre intel mac user so I'm unable to utilize your software, Vanishingpoint.

I guess I'll just have to do it via editing the text file if external file references are needed (i.e. for a commercial model and user friendliness) or have a Widows os Poser savy tester do that step. In any other instance, and the foreseeable future, Poser exported .obj's or the .obj's for original models created by myself seem ok.

Thanks for the suggestion. :)

And the explaination!

...Ditto with D3d's utility, Windows.

primorge - can macs run some sorta windows emulator? If not why not ask some one here to extract for you, it's only literally a few minutes job.

"Plus, mapping programs like UV Mapper can only read obj files, not pp2 or cr2 files."

Actually, UVMapper can read .pp2, and .hr2 (hair) files and perhaps any Poser file with embedded geometry. You can dran and drop the file or use the file type drop down to show all files. In fact, I usually use it in preference to other ytilities to extract the geometry from these files.

I'd bet that Ockham could whip up a Python script to save out the geometry in no time. Presumably, that could be run from within Poser on either platform.  

primorge: doesn't MacOS have a version of WINE? I bet it'll run in that ;). It's a very simple program.

Laurie

(BTW - JHoagland's Geometry Stripper works in Windows 8 desktop version, I can attest.)

I'm on a pre intel PowerMac G5 with a PPC processor. Compatibility and emulation only arrived to the Mac upon it's switch to the intel processors. Just the way it is for a while for me... If I didn't use Poser as a tool (and most of the small utilities for poser only have windows support) I wouldn't have any problems. Poser is beloved by myself, but alas no Mac support by content creators, particularly on older hardware.

(And saying "well then use a windows machine" will be ignored, sorry. Buy me one and replace all my Mac software for starters! ha!)

As far as UVmapper goes I use UVMapper classic basically to resize UV's and some file conversion and exportation of templates. Assigning cuts, manipulation, and relaxing of the regions are done in wings and carrara. The things I make at this point that need to be mapped are very simple so it's not really an issue, yet. Sort of a half-assed workflow to be sure but it suits my needs... Necessity and invention as they say.

As stated earlier, I suppose if I had a potential marketplace item I could find some nice folks to test it for me on windows and the latest version of Poser and do the extraction if that were criteria for acceptance.

Phwew! that was tiring...

In any case anything I'd make for sale would be small potatoes and cheaply priced, I don't have any desire to be a Poser superstar... just some extra cigarette money would be nice. Times are tough!

"I'd bet that Ockham could whip up a Python script to save out the geometry in no time. Presumably, that could be run from within Poser on either platform."

Makes me think that perhaps there's some reason if it hasn't been done already...

The basic answer to my initial question is that external geometry for props is

1. A convenience for file to software cross compatibility.

2. Uses less computational resources but perhaps is outmoded in this generation of hardware.

3. Is a holdover from #2 in that Marketplaces still require external objects (that are referenced by the .pp2) to be included within the Runtime Geometries for prop products.

Guess that about covers it?

Guess that about covers it? Yea pretty much there. could find some nice folks to test it for me on windows and the latest version of Poser More than easily, though no need for the latest version of poser unless you're using poser shaders. ..alas no Mac support by content creators, particularly on older hardware. Some of us do :) I try to design all of my stuff so it'll work in P4/p5 upwards and the myriad versions of studio. Typically no shaders, no non ascii characters or spaces in the filenames. About the only thing you might need to change is some path names, though only because I recall earlier macs had issues with long paths. 32 characters or something like that on P5? Our workflow is similar as well, Carrara 5, UVmapper. Sometimes a bit of LithUnwrap.

i used the D3d .cr2 editor to make an external obj file for a pp2.  i opened the obj in wings3d to tweak it and found a group for every poly. 

is still a great utility to automatically edit the .pp2 file.
An extra step to export the obj from the poser menu to o/w the cr2Editor created .obj.

MLP... Cr2 Editor- Again, Windows.

As a comment, I'd like to say thank you to all the people who took the time to respond to my query. I generally don't create question threads on the forum because my experience has been that a little elbow grease in terms of reading, searching, and testing can answer any questions that I might have. This thank you is doubly aimed at mrsparky. You're words and deeds are respected by this Poser user! :)

Quote - (BTW - JHoagland's Geometry Stripper works in Windows 8 desktop version, I can attest.)

Cool! That's excellent news.

For anyone who cannot use Geometry Stripper to create a prop which references an .obj in the Geometries folder (for whatever reason, e.g. os ), Vanishing Point also has this tutorial on how to do it manually in a text editor. A very simple process...

http://www.cocs.com/poser/props2.htm