Let's suppose someone came up with the perfect Poser figure. It's rigged perfectly, lots of morphs, and beautifully sculpted out of the box. Laurie even loves it feet!  It's poses well and does everything Genesis does and even a little more. It's one draw back is that it only works in Poser because DAZ won't support it.

Question, will it catch on and receive vendor support or not? Why?

Well, if I like the feet then it would have to be good, wouldn't it? LMAO

I think a Poser only figure would definitely sell if certain requirements are met:

It has excellent support and content right out of the box. Figures (mostly Daz figures) tend to do much better if they have a lot of stuff FOR the figure upon release.

It has extensive well-made morphs either in the base or as an add-on. Most people don't/don't want to bother with making morphs.

Great bending. I think most of us are quite sick of the macaroni elbows ;). Full weight mapping (as well as the clothing) I think would be a big bonus.

Scaling support. I think it's a given that everyone likes the scaling idea.

I think if those conditions are met, the figure might have a chance. The only drawback I can possibly think of is that one person would have a really hard time filling that tall of an order (but not impossible I guess).

Laurie: The Foot Lady

Only big differences are in "Z".

What do you see when you look at a figure for the very first time??
Form?
Shape?
No.
What you see is a texture.

A good texture is 80% of the first impression.

All the rest comes later when you start to bend, morph or pose.

Clearly labeled personal opinion... not as a representative of Renderosity

**
**Imho, one person cannot do what LaurieA outlines (which I agree is the pre-req to a figure having a FIGHTING chance!)

This would require that an entity with the financial resources to PAY a team to develop this creature, AND produce all the initial supporting materials for release at day one. I have no idea how many people Daz employs/contracts with for their figure development, but I'm betting the team is fair-sized. (Someone who knows feel free to correct me.)

I can only think of one company with the resources, (and the financial motivation to get involved in this process) and so far they have not allocated the money in this direction. The first initial of the firm is "S". 

I personally like Rex and Roxie. I'd use them more if there were more textures available. Clothing is not an issue for me, using PP14 (Don't you love the fitting room? And the shrink to fit Morph Brush?) I can even brew up faces and bodies using the morphs. What I don't know how to make is new textures.

Perhaps SM will see fit to develop or contract with someone to do what's needed to make a flood of content to jump start them. 

Perhaps not.

EDIT:

I agree with Tony 100% as well! Multiple textures are key to me using a new figure.

It could work but there are so many factors to deal with.  Beautifully sculptured is fine but to who's definition of beautiful.  Vender support is important but at least there would be some clothing from day one with the fitting room but then that does limit the market to Poser 2014 users. 

For me however, the 'does everything that Genesis does even a little more' is the biggest unknown.  I fully accept that Genesis was, or is, technically excellent and lots of people see great potential.  Despite this I have yet to see what it gives me that V4WM does not but then perhaps my needs are not as critical as others.  This is nothing to do with Daz it is just a value for money question and therefore the same question would arise with any other figure no matter what the source.  I for one would like better skin textures but that has little to do with the figure.

The starting point I guess would have to be the list of the problems users have with V4 so that you can show how this has been corrected in the new figure while making sure it is not broken in another area.  The final question of course would be what is everyone prepared to pay for this new super figure.

Quote - Vender support is important but at least there would be some clothing from day one with the fitting room but then that does limit the market to Poser 2014 users. 

This is the main Factor. It only would work for the latest version of Poser which is a very small percentage of the entire market among both Daz and Poser users who are still using previous versions. Might be great, but from a possible financial point of few, is not really a wise investment, there for leading to fewer vendors who will find the prospect attractive. Unless it is made available to a wider audience it is going to struggle to gain traction. Then again, SM can always give Poser2014 away for free:) That would be a start, but I don't see that happening.

I doubt there will ever be a perfect Poser figure. Everyone has differnt ideas of perfect, so it will never happen.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

I agree 110% aboit the texture thing. And not just a lot of "pale chicks with freckles" textures. Various ethnic textures, too. And for the males, options with and without beards.

Clothes are nice, but there are several options of fitting clothes to new figures, so it's not the major point. Textures, OTOH is something not everyone can just whip up.

But another major point for me would actually be whether or not there's an opposite sex-counterpart. In other words: If you make a woman, make a man, too. And don't let the poor guy end up as some left hand last minute job ;) he should have the same possibilities and options as the much coveted nude woman ;)

Content. Mostly character sets (not everyone sees beauty the same) plenty of textures and quality, authentic, ethinic morphs (lots of people asking for them) and dial-a-morph and at least some clothes/ slut wear and their own personal temple and sword. And if it can do what genesis can do, it will need all this for both genders.

Quote - Clearly labeled personal opinion... not as a representative of Renderosity

This would require that an entity with the financial resources to PAY a team to develop this creature, AND produce all the initial supporting materials for release at day one. I have no idea how many people Daz employs/contracts with for their figure development, but I'm betting the team is fair-sized. (Someone who knows feel free to correct me.)

What it would take to make Rex base mesh.

Model Rex ruff pre subd mesh with a few tri's 4 hours. C4D
Subd make REX 100% quads. 1 click, 1 minute. C4D
Tweek the subd mesh.4 hours C4D
Map Rex 30 minutes. zBrush
Rig Rex 4 hours. C4D
I've never rigged in Poser but I'm sure it would be about the same as C4D

oh a texture 30 minutes.zBrush

13 hours.just one days work, that's why they give so much $$$ for the software.
A custome made mesh is not cheep eather.

Forgot the morphs
30 minutes for each of the full body n face morphs zBrush

Quote - Let's suppose someone came up with the perfect Poser figure. It's rigged perfectly, lots of morphs, and beautifully sculpted out of the box. Laurie even loves it feet!  It's poses well and does everything Genesis does and even a little more. It's one draw back is that it only works in Poser because DAZ won't support it.

Question, will it catch on and receive vendor support or not? Why?

~.o

it would have to have great hands and feet. It would have to bend well...and geographting wouldnt be a bad thing.

it would have to have actual realistic full body(as in GENITALS) details.

and able to be morphed out easily.

Breasts that actually act like breasts.  with realistic movement. those should be basic on a figure.

I am not too fussed about beauty. that can be morphed in.

Quote - Look at this picture and see that all figures "are" the same when scaled to the same shoulder-arm height : That is why the fitting room does such a good job with correctly welded clothing.

Only big differences are in "Z".

DC & Marvel Comics use human ratio .
head 5 eyes wide 7 eyes tall
body 8 heads tall

it's the formula that everyone follows ,more or less

Marvel and DC often break those proportions for the hero figures.  I've seen a 10 heads Superman, for one.  In fact, the most commonly used way to make a figure seem heroic is to use 9 or 10 heads for the height.  IIRC, there's a sculpture of Alexander at 9 heads.

Also, I'd just love Blackhearted to comment on your timescale for developing a figure.  Even allowing for the fact he starts with an existing model, your estimates are - well, the polite way to put it would be - rather optimistic.  More than that would most likely be a TOS violation.  :D  

Quote - DC & Marvel Comics use human ratio .
head 5 eyes wide 7 eyes tall
body 8 heads tall

it's the formula that everyone follows ,more or less

That's part of the problem from a realism standpoint; the average adult is only 7 1/2 heads tall, and children are even less.

Quote - This would require that an entity with the financial resources to PAY a team to develop this creature, AND produce all the initial supporting materials for release at day one. I have no idea how many people Daz employs/contracts with for their figure development, but I'm betting the team is fair-sized. (Someone who knows feel free to correct me.) I can only think of one company with the resources, (and the financial motivation to get involved in this process) and so far they have not allocated the money in this direction. The first initial of the firm is "S".

This is an excellent point.  The Antonia team produced a very good figure, but there wasn't much for her to wear, although she looked pretty good nude.   She may be a bit on the light side polygon-wise, tho'.

Miki 2 and the Poser 7 G2 figures were accompanied by a wide range of clothing and the RDNA Morphs, but there were shortcomings in rigging and symmetry that caused the figures themselves to have issues.  In light of this I wouldn't expect SM to be the ones rolling something similar out any time soon...

The responses appear to be missing the point that EClark was getting at. He wasn't asking about specifically how to make a perfect character or any such thing. He was asking, assuming all those conditions are met (which it can be safely implied is impossible), would the figure be a success if it were only Poser compatible. He was basically making a jab at DAZ for releasing the Genesis figure (initially, at least) as a DS-only compatible figure, and asking if the same scenario is even conceivable in reverse.

Would any other developer possess the hubris to do such a thing, and could anyone but DAZ get away with such shenanigans?

In the spirit of playing along with the original question, yes I do think it could be successful. Many (probably most) of the products for sale here in the Marketplace don't even mention whether they're DAZ Studio-compatible, and I'd assume most DS users just assume some possiblity of compatibility issues when they buy products or download freebies. Most serious hobbyist 3Ders will have Poser, and they'll buy it, and the vendors will then support it. Studio users will get what they paid for.

Quote - Marvel and DC often break those proportions for the hero figures.  I've seen a 10 heads Superman, for one.  In fact, the most commonly used way to make a figure seem heroic is to use 9 or 10 heads for the height.  IIRC, there's a sculpture of Alexander at 9 heads.

I did say more or less ;)

Quote - More than that would most likely be a TOS violation.  :D

LMAO :)

Quote - Also,I'd just love Blackhearted to comment on your timescale for developing a figure.  Even allowing for the fact he starts with an existing model, your estimates are - well, the polite way to put it would be - rather optimistic.  More than that would most likely be a TOS violation.  :D

Fell free to ask the Pro's your self about my time table.
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/forum.php
Let us know what they say.

Quote - Let's suppose someone came up with the perfect Poser figure. It's rigged perfectly, lots of morphs, and beautifully sculpted out of the box. Laurie even loves it feet!  It's poses well and does everything Genesis does and even a little more. It's one draw back is that it only works in Poser because DAZ won't support it.

Question, will it catch on and receive vendor support or not? Why?

Why should vendors tamper with it if it is already perfect? At least the vendors producing those "Real Breasts", "Perfect Shoulder" and "Bend Morphs" packages would be put right out of business by that figure, so they had to sell their children and eat their dogs. Perhaps they could make additional clothes for it, because the figure might be perfect but making clothes for it is a nightmare. Then it depends on how keen vendors are on getting into a nightmare, i guess.

Quote - > Quote - Clearly labeled personal opinion... not as a representative of Renderosity

This would require that an entity with the financial resources to PAY a team to develop this creature, AND produce all the initial supporting materials for release at day one. I have no idea how many people Daz employs/contracts with for their figure development, but I'm betting the team is fair-sized. (Someone who knows feel free to correct me.)

What it would take to make Rex base mesh.

Model Rex ruff pre subd mesh with a few tri's 4 hours. C4D
Subd make REX 100% quads. 1 click, 1 minute. C4D
Tweek the subd mesh.4 hours C4D
Map Rex 30 minutes. zBrush
Rig Rex 4 hours. C4D
I've never rigged in Poser but I'm sure it would be about the same as C4D

oh a texture 30 minutes.zBrush

13 hours.just one days work, that's why they give so much $$$ for the software.
A custome made mesh is not cheep eather.

Forgot the morphs
30 minutes for each of the full body n face morphs zBrush

Ha! I say again, HA!  :-)

Hey, all brushes in "Z" and company :-)

This is the Poser forum.
LOL.

There can never be a "perfect" figure for all of us.

Some are animators, some do "real world scenes", some do close ups.

One needs hi poly, the guy next door prefers lower poly.

One needs clothes, the other does not.

What we all need are perfect textures, and tons and tons, and more tons, of better hair.
(Yes LauriA, shoe's too)

And even then, the native units of Poser and DS are different. In Poser a figure will be higher then in DS.

But? We are talking Poser here. And  Poser now has SubD, so polycount is less important.
Clothing is also less of a problem now with the new morph brush and fitting room.

Good textures and a good displacement maps are still as important as before.

So, go out on the streets, and take a deep hard look at some "real good looking women".

Ha! I say again, HA!  :-)

Yes Teyon, agreed,

How do we call that one ?
LOL.

What Teyon said. Blackhearted said it took months to make a decent figure. That's working with a base figure. As stated, everyone's idea of what is a good figure is different. Price is the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Again, for only the latest version of Poser, a small market within a small market. I'd buy it.

I know for a fact it takes BH months just to do morphs and jcms...forget about modeling and rigging the figure. LOL.

Laurie

The time to make a good texture set (diffuse, bump, specular, displacement, etc) -- photoreal and seamless -- is way underestimated as well.

Quote - > Quote - Let's suppose someone came up with the perfect Poser figure. It's rigged perfectly, lots of morphs, and beautifully sculpted out of the box. Laurie even loves it feet!  It's poses well and does everything Genesis does and even a little more. It's one draw back is that it only works in Poser because DAZ won't support it.

Question, will it catch on and receive vendor support or not? Why?

Why should vendors tamper with it if it is already perfect? At least the vendors producing those "Real Breasts", "Perfect Shoulder" and "Bend Morphs" packages would be put right out of business by that figure, so they had to sell their children and eat their dogs. Perhaps they could make additional clothes for it, because the figure might be perfect but making clothes for it is a nightmare. Then it depends on how keen vendors are on getting into a nightmare, i guess.

True. Another point is if it is perfect and already contains all those packagesfixes out of the box, imagine how resource intensive that figure will be. Also if a vendor wants to put their own spin on things, they will have to cross reference a much larger data base to see how they can incorporate their product with the existing content on that figure, which will make it a nightmare to develope for. Reason for these addon morphsfixes etc. is that not everybody has the same tastes and preffer variety, and variety comes from different artistic viewpoints. Eg the developers might think that the figure looks great and work well and is "perfect", a vendor might look at it and say it looks like crap and want to do it the way they think it should look. This is why all these packages exist. The whole point of addon, fixes & morphs packs is that it gives people a choice of whether they want them or not. Keeping the base figure as light as possible is also key. Complicate it out of the box, and you scare off potential content developers.

Quote - Clearly labeled personal opinion... not as a representative of Renderosity

**
**Imho, one person cannot do what LaurieA outlines (which I agree is the pre-req to a figure having a FIGHTING chance!)

This would require that an entity with the financial resources to PAY a team to develop this creature, AND produce all the initial supporting materials for release at day one. I have no idea how many people Daz employs/contracts with for their figure development, but I'm betting the team is fair-sized. (Someone who knows feel free to correct me.)

I can only think of one company with the resources, (and the financial motivation to get involved in this process) and so far they have not allocated the money in this direction. The first initial of the firm is "S". 

I personally like Rex and Roxie. I'd use them more if there were more textures available. Clothing is not an issue for me, using PP14 (Don't you love the fitting room? And the shrink to fit Morph Brush?) I can even brew up faces and bodies using the morphs. What I don't know how to make is new textures.

Perhaps SM will see fit to develop or contract with someone to do what's needed to make a flood of content to jump start them. 

Perhaps not.

EDIT:

I agree with Tony 100% as well! Multiple textures are key to me using a new figure.

Kickstarter could be a way to handle this.

And I also agree about textures - that has been my greatest hold up.  Give me half a dozen textures from ethnic figures are the only ones I buy anymore - I got enough white girls.

I can spin a dial as well as anyone else, I got HCS for hair, fitting room for clothes, and I am off to the races....

Quote - Ha! I say again, HA!  :-)

Teyon : How can you HA .When you have Modo AKA the fasted modeler on the planet & zBrush.

Quote - I know for a fact it takes BH months just to do morphs and jcms...forget about modeling and rigging the figure. LOL.

Laurie

I'm gueesing BH is making his 99.9% realist perfect morphs on his own time and don't have a pain in the back side of a boss yelling at him "are you done yet"

I never said anything about realistic perfect.
I'm talking about the meshes ya see in the zBrush gallery.
Rex don't look all that realistic.

Quote - The time to make a good texture set (diffuse, bump, specular, displacement, etc) -- photoreal and seamless -- is way underestimated as well.

Yes I know the commitment it takes to do a good map for Photoshop
and texture,diffuse, bump, specular, displacement in photoshop.

lets just say I'm not big on commitments.
I'm all for cheating any and every way I can.
zBrush don't even need a map.but it does have a mapper.
zBrush has tools for very fast texturing,diffuse, bump, specular, displacement,vector maps etc etc .

Well I get the same results as someone that spent 40 hours in Photoshop ?
Probably not ,but there still cool textures,diffuse, bump, specular, displacement,vector maps etc etc ;)

Quote - > Quote - I know for a fact it takes BH months just to do morphs and jcms...forget about modeling and rigging the figure. LOL.

Laurie

I'm gueesing BH is making his 99.9% realist perfect morphs on his own time and don't have a pain in the back side of a boss yelling at him "are you done yet"

I never said anything about realistic perfect.
I'm talking about the meshes ya see in the zBrush gallery.
Rex don't look all that realistic.

Nah, he's his own boss...and a perfectionist to boot (good thing). LOL.

Laurie

Do I think if the perfect figure existed would it get support? Sure. Why wouldn't it? I mean, it'd be perfect right?  Thus meeting the requirements of every user, so it'd be widely adopted. A vendor would be crazy not to support something like that.

 Do I think such a character could ever exist? Nope.  There's one absolute when it comes to dealing with the public at large - you can't please everyone.  That's even more true for Poser characters.  The biggest reason Poser and Daz characters are so difficult to get right is that there isn't a focused audience/user base. You're not all animators. You're not all render artists. You're not all texture artists. You're not all character artists. There's such a wide range of end users to please that it is more likely that we will NOT please everyone than it is that we'll please anyone.  That is the curse of developing with an X factor as your user base. So no, I don't think a perfect figure will ever exist because perfect figures exist already.  If that makes sense to you.  There are figures that are perfect for very specific uses but are they perfect for all uses? Nope and likely never will be.

 That said, I know there's room for the content that we make to grow beyond what we're doing.  Some are rigging based, a very technical area and a bit outside my comfort zone. Some are asset design based, which is more my cup of tea. I see areas of improvement being made but slowly. Part of that is because of adoption rates by the masses and part of that is just artistic growth. Models I made four years ago can't hold up to models I make today and the models I make today will be poor shades of the models I make tomorrow.  So I think perfection is a fallacy we shouldn't try to strive for. We should instead focus on believability and detail based on form following function.  That's what I'm trying to bring to the table with every model I make and every release of Poser I help create. 

 To that end, Iam constantly learning, adapting and improving. It would be awesome to see more vendors doing that also. I've noticed a few who have but there are many who are content staying at a certain level. That's too bad because there's so much potential to be had.  I'd like to see textures with tailor made bump/displacement maps for detailing. None of that let's just use the diffuse thing that has run rampant for years. I''m a firm believer that a good bump/normal map and displacement map can work wonders for achieving a realistic look. Doubly so if the person makes them on a figure with decent anatomy to begin with or is capable of making a believable morph.  Add in clothing that has modeled in detail where it makes sense to do so and hair that doesn't look like it's out of a romance novel (or a really bad catalouge...I nearly cried when I saw the hair models we include in Poser) and you're that much closer to a believable image.  An increase in the types of locales being modeled and sold would help also.

 Getting back to figures though, I think offering a high and low res model is smart. I think the low res for film is about 50K. Roxie and Rex are half that, which isn't too bad - I feel like some give them a bum rap.  Roxie and Rex are a middle ground between people who like animating/or digital sculpting and people who like old school morphing - at least in my opinion. I say this because they don't have every single muscle specifically defined, making some sculpting choices easier than if they did but they have some areas cut out for those that need the guides. Could the topo be better? Sure, there's no such thing as a perfect topology but I think finding balance between the two is a good way to go topology-wise. Then just offer a high and low version of that. 

 To me a model that covers those things mentioned would be ideal. Still not perfect - aesthetics are so personal - but worthwhile.  Man do I talk alot.

Short Answer: No. Based on not specifying that circumstances of its introduction would be any different than all the others.

Does SHE (spare me the boys getting sent home with their ‘nads in a Bull Durham sack) even need to be perfect? If someone came out with the equivalent of V4 with the level of support she had on her introduction, would she succeed? Even with the support, promotion etc. there is still the DAZ cachet which is probably not so devalued even now as some would think. That’s an intangible. That is baseline she would need to have a realistic chance.

She would have to be compatible in some way with older versions of Poser and work well with all the other applications people use to render, create morphs etc. IMO, you need to appeal to the broadest audience, not just the latest and greatest power users. Imagine a figure that for some reason, only worked with dynamic clothing – you’d lose many people right there. Doesn’t play well with Vue, subtract numbers, won’t work in Carrara – subtract a few more, requires more to use than the standard skill set many people probably still rely on – another minus, requires P9+ – how many people does that leave out … it all adds up.

It might require two versions, ala Antonia and AntoniaWM. That in itself is a potential problem in terms of confusing the less savvy users but I think it remains an issue. The biggest hurdle though is I think psychological, getting the masses of people to see it as something they want. That is, in part why I think that SM would need to spin off a separate brand and work to establish its reputation as being equivalent to DAZ. Releasing a new figure under the Poser/SM label might not be the kiss of death, but I’m not sure how much it helps (among the masses). The desktop takeover by Linux never happened, but I bet desktop “Android” would do well, in part simply because it’s a brand that many people don’t even associate with the L word.

Wiz is right. We all know the roll of independent figures and how well the seem to do – not so much, no matter how well done they are, even if they are free. IMO, the best chance for independent figures is the specialty market, i.e. 3DZ’s toon figures. I hadn’t thought about it but Vilters has an excellent point. Great textures are a big selling point. It may also be an area where attention needs to be paid to ensuring they look good in down level versions and other applications as well.

It is true that beauty is subjective, I think but there is a general notion of it and I wouldn’t go with plain out of the box. Everyone also has their pet desires, X room compatibility, feet etc., but you can’t just tick off boxes. Levi has been selling a boatload of jeans since 18 whatever, not because they’re fancy, but because they’re a solid product that has built up a reputation, something that doesn’t happen overnight. Whoever wants to play needs to be willing to hang in there.

Quote - Let's suppose someone came up with the perfect Poser figure. It's rigged perfectly, lots of morphs, and beautifully sculpted out of the box. Laurie even loves it feet!  It's poses well and does everything Genesis does and even a little more. It's one draw back is that it only works in Poser because DAZ won't support it.

Question, will it catch on and receive vendor support or not? Why?

I swear I can hear the DAZ Priest ,screaming blasphemer .LOL
Ever now and then someone gets hold of some bad moonshine
or see's a superman movie or what ever makes them think they can war against Victoria.
They soon discover that Victoria is the Queen.
Pitiful broken fools with there delusions of grandeur.
May the CGI gods have pitty on there broken CGI kingdomes layed to waist.

If you look to The Tower
you might get a glimps of,apollo maximus,antonia,michelle
and the rest of the lost ones that names have been forgotten.

My hold back on Rex & Roxie are 2 fold:

No ethnic textures, no morph packs at launch - pretty much makes them a non-starter, until they are made.  I got Z-Brush today - I won't be cranking out morph packs over the weekend.

And what the hell is up with Rex's inner thighs touching?  It is giving me fits in the fitting room.

And while I am at it, why can't I select body groups named "genital" not to show up in fitting room calculations.

Someone needs to be slapped with a brick in the man zone for those two.....

Oooh, what a co-inky-dink See the "Of possible interest to Poser users" We can stop speculating and see what happens :-)

Reading all this again the conclusion must be:
Textures - textures - textures.

If you look at v4 it is clear that 'beautiful sculpting out of the box' is not required for success.  

The figure needs to have potential for beautiful sculpting and that potential needs to be demonstrated with co-released product on launch.  For instnace Anastasia is beautifully sculpted, but allyson 2 is still not in any way a contender vs v4.   She ticks a lot of the boxes you'd like to see ticked for a figure too.  Lots of morphs, free with poser(large potential market for content creation), dense enough geometry for fine sculpted detail etc. (yes along with a bunch of shortcomings cough rigging cough).  I have to wonder where she might be if she landed either looking like anastasia or having anastasia land at the same time.

Demonstrating the potential is huge.  Launching along side 'must have' content is huge.

Is anything likely to tick all the boxes needed for true success compared to daz figures without significant capital support & a dedicated team?  probably not.

On a more philosophical level, why do we need just 1 character?

I have a menagerie and I know it certainly works better for me than 1 figure to rule them all.

Quote - Reading all this again the conclusion must be:
Textures - textures - textures.

Yes.  It is the only reason I buy characters now.

Quote - My hold back on Rex & Roxie are 2 fold:

No ethnic textures, no morph packs at launch - pretty much makes them a non-starter, until they are made.  I got Z-Brush today - I won't be cranking out morph packs over the weekend.

And what the hell is up with Rex's inner thighs touching?  It is giving me fits in the fitting room.

And while I am at it, why can't I select body groups named "genital" not to show up in fitting room calculations.

Someone needs to be slapped with a brick in the man zone for those two.....

 

 

That was rigging choice - the thighs touching. I have no real clue why. You can zero him out and see they don't.

Quote - My hold back on Rex & Roxie are 2 fold:

No ethnic textures, no morph packs at launch - pretty much makes them a non-starter, until they are made.  I got Z-Brush today - I won't be cranking out morph packs over the weekend.

And what the hell is up with Rex's inner thighs touching?  It is giving me fits in the fitting room.

And while I am at it, why can't I select body groups named "genital" not to show up in fitting room calculations.

Someone needs to be slapped with a brick in the man zone for those two.....

Congrats on zBrush.

http://pixologic.com/zclassroom/homeroom/

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/forum.php

just a friendly tip.
pro fourms are not hobbyist fourms.

What tablet did you get ?

Quote - I know I'm personally planning to support the characters separate from my day gig. I want to do some detailed textures. Like these which were just a proof concept.

killer

Quote - I know I'm personally planning to support the characters separate from my day gig. I want to do some detailed textures. Like these which were just a proof concept.

Yes!!!!! Thank you.

But first we have to agree what a Poser figure actually should be:

Do we want a stylized video-game avatar, or do we want a realistic virtual representation of an actual human being ?

The first is very easy, the latter very hard.

A figure that can be the first will most likely not be able to be the latter.

But a figure that can be the latter can also be the first very easily.

What's the secret to realism ? Textures ? Nope, they can help, but they are fairly unimportant.

It's the details. The right shapes, the right volumes, the right proportions.

And you can't have that without an elaborate mesh topology that uses edgeloops to exactly define the muscles and bones of a human being.

DAZ knows that, that's why their figures can be so realistic. They can, but they don't have to.

Because an edgelooped topology can be just as smooth as a simple "fishnet" topology. But a simple fishnet topology can never be as detailed as a properly edgelooped topology.

Again, we have to first decide what we actually want for Poser:

A video game avatar that tries to make up for it's stylized shape and simple mesh topology with subdividing and elaborate textures, inclusing displacement maps, or do we want elaborate sculpts that try to catch the exact shape and look of a human being the same way artists are creating statues and busts: By carefully replicating the shapes they see before their eyes ?

Remember, a super realistic high polygon mesh can easily be as "un-realistic" and smooth and stylized as you want.

If you want it.

A stylized low-res mesh will never be able to be super realistic given the limitations of the current Poser technology.

Sharp creases, undercuts, maybe Poser will be able to do that in the future. But not now. Right now, we can only make a smooth mesh smoother.

What "The CGI Industry" does or does not is completely irrevelant for Poser.

What the vast majority of Poser/Studio users want is what's important.

And they either stayed with the high res V4/M4 mesh or weren't happy enough with the low res Genesis mesh so that DAZ now rowed back and again added more polygons to it.

And here is "The Gang", as sculpted by WERTS.

All use the exact same texture, but still WERTS was able to catch their likenesses so accurately just by giving them the right shapes.

Could individual textures enhance the likenesses ? Sure, they could. But not much, and they especially couldn't replace WERTS elaborate sculpting or DAZ clever edgelooping.

And to answer the OP question:

Yes, I think a "perfect" Poser mesh would have a chance to de-throne V4.

But it has to be the "right kind of perfect".

It has to be more realistic than V4 or Genesis, not just another attempt at the same stale formula we've seen for years.

I don't think the Poser only aspect is an issue but if it is, this is probably the wrong forum to ask the question.

As to a perfect figure from SM, if you look at the stated reason behind the fitting room, making it easier for 3rd party figures to gain a hold as there would be the ability to clothe any new figure from day on, I believe, only confirms their stance of being primarily a software develper.

Quote - I doubt there will ever be a perfect Poser figure. Everyone has differnt ideas of perfect, so it will never happen.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

That's very true. And there are also different ideas of what looks "realistic", depending on what you're used to and where you come from.

For me the closest to perfect figure for what I usually need is Evolution Eve for V4. She has the best proportions for me (and by far the best feet!). M3 is the best male figure for me, M4 is not the correct shape and needs a lot of work to look anything like. I know that's not the same for everyone and I know that a lot of the figures that are described as more "realistic" are no interest to me, because that's not the "realistic" I'm after.

So "perfect" is definitely in the eye of the beholder! LOL.

Here are some models with really solid forms. Would they be simple for the average person to make morphs, maybe not but for someone who understands anatomy and form they should be able to get good looks out of them when combined with a solid texture.  

This is one by my friend Raul Teliki. He made this a very, very long time ago (I was still using Rhino back then).  You can see how well the forms are captured without a large use of muscle cuts. You can also see there's potential for defining the muscularture even more with the amount of geometry available.

So can the average user with little to no knowledge of anatomy make morphs for a character with defined cuts easier than one without? Absolutely. Is that the only way to do things? Nope. 

 I think doing area cuts in a medium res to high res mesh instead of full muscle cuts is the better way to go. That's my personal opinion, as it caters to both deformation as well as detail. Modeling for deformation is not the same as modeling for detail. Poser's nature is such that we need a happy blend, as our characters both have to deform and render well. This requires a compromise in topology or two different meshes for the same figure.  Finding the compromise - the right blend - is what I and many others are striving for.