For a non-Daz figure to be more sucessful than the V-series, she would need to be supermodel-hot with a arsenal of realistic breast and genital morphs; bendable as a yoga master and served by a devoted team of fulltime employees cranking out endless slutwear. Smith Micro and its figure production is like Luke Skywalker screaming "NOOOO!!!!" in the face of reality. The logic of the market is pullling to the darkside.

Well I may be wrong but I have a feeling that the birth of Dawn may, at least is some way, be prompted by the creation of Genesis.  If Dawn turns out to be half as good as she is described at the moment, and with the names behind her she has a very good chance, then well done Genesis you have given a great service to Poser users.

This time around it might really be a 'game changer', time will tell but even if I was intereseted in Genesis I would not spend out on V6 just yet, not until i see just what Dawn has to offer.

I won't stop using V4 but I am excited she may have a younger sister. 

Quote - Just a thought.If we have V4,V5,Michelle,Rox's,V6 ,Dawn etc etc. In the V4 days ALL the venders made V4 stuff.
Who are they going to make stuff for now ?

I think those days are done.  Genesis is a clearly a step backwards for Poser users, and will never be adopted to the extent Vicky 1-4 were.  Unless either DAZ or SM goes belly-up, the market is permanently divided now.

Even if Dawn is a huge success and becomes the new Vicky...there will be two versions of her, a DS and a Poser version.  Merchants will still have to choose, or put in the work to support both.

This is probably the best outcome.  DS and Poser are too different now, and trying to keep one figure compatible with both would cripple it.  I want a figure that makes uses of all Poser's strengths, including new features like weight-mapping, and I'm sure DS users want the same for their figures. 

I didn't go for Genesis and V5 and I'm not going for Gen2 and V6. She's a DSON girl which requires that I have DAZ Studio on my system to even begin the transfer. I speak only for myself and my laptop--DAZ Studio does not play well on my machine with Poser also installed. After installing, opening once and closing, I went to Poser to mess around and suddenly my renders went into a crawl. Something wasn't right at all. I uninstalled the program, rebooted, and everything was back to normal. So no DAZ Studio on my system. And even if I had kept it on my system, I would not have gone through the hoops of importing such a low poly figure into Poser where I'd also have (from what I read) terrible problems getting clothes on the figure. No, no, and no. If there had also been a version of V5 that had obj/cr2 and worked immediately in Poser, then I would have been right there. But no, DAZ didn't do that. And they've not done that with V6 either. They could have in order to widen their base of customers (which in this economy you've got to wonder why a company wouldn't want to broaden it's customer base to it's fullest). And she's again, a low poly figure. I don't want a low poly figure. I was here when people were trying to make P4 a higher poly figure! I still have the first version of that figure in my old P4 runtime. I also still have the EVE figure by Trav with her early version of the joints that would be seen in the DAZ figures. And then came this Genesis system and it's a low poly mesh and I don't care how you SubD it, it just doesn't have the detail that I would want for my rendering purposes. So I didn't buy it and with money tight right now, I'm not sinking money into V6 either for the exact same reasons.

Now, I'm very excited about Dawn, and guess what? Here starting price is right where my pocketbook can handle it---FREE. At least they say the base figure with some starter morphs and I think a couple of peices of clothing. I'm hoping for clothing coverter support (because I can't afford yet to get Poser Pro 2014).

So, what I'm saying and others are saying, is what RGUS started with, for those of us who are hard core Poser users, V6 is a Dud.

Well said.

I suggest to refer to figures as "character figures" or "base figures" depending on their purpose. Clearly TY2 is a (very good) character figure. Clearly DAZ V3,M3,V4,M4 are (very good) base figures. The requirements are not the same. Characters need to be striking, base figures bland, but have loads and loads of morphs available.

Problems arise when a figure is released by developers that are not 100% clear about in which category it is supposed to fit.

Sydney is a character with a very recognisable face. Should she not have been a base figure? Are the Mikis characters or base figures for asian figures?

Rex and Roxie are supposed to be base figures, but why on earth do they not even have basic body scaling morphs built in? I know the users can learn to do full body morphs, but why not have scaling dials available from the start? I hope for good morph packs, R&R are too good to fall into disuse like some of their predecessors.

Quote - > Quote - Since when is it SM's job to follow DAZ?

 

You misunderstood what I was getting at - I'll clarify: 

It is SmithMicro's job to make and include a figure that is morphable enough that you can create a variety of differing shapes and looks, and one that should show off well the feature-set of Poser.

Poser 4 had Posette, a Zygote figure that did very well for the time. From Poser 5 onward however, SmithMicro has utterly failed to do what I mentioned up there. Their efforts have been singularly unmorphable globs of mesh that always look alike no matter what you try to do with it. Unless you're a veritable master of mesh, and spend a ton of time in Z-Brush or similar, the results are almost always too easy to pinpoint as being that figure. 

The big selling-point of the Millennium series of meshes that DAZ made is that it only takes a relatively small amount of skill to make the figure into almost anything you want it to, and it takes very little work to make a face look like 'someone else' entirely.

I've lost count of the number of 'Vicky-killer' meshes that have come down the pike... it's been 14 years of them and counting. Seems everyone keeps missing the point, though.

If this 'Dawn' thing comes through, awesome. Not yet holding my breath though - world+dog had the same wishes for Antonia, Alyson, Renda, DinaV, Natalia, etc etc etc.

Only time and results will tell.

Quote - I've been playing with an addon for Wings that lets it create terrains from Height maps.  Still coming to grips with the making of the height maps, but getting there. 

I live in the terminal morane area of the Wisconsinan glacier, and right on the south  edge of that,  THis is the terrain I'm shooting for, I have some definite ideas, and I don't have Vue.  The highest hill we have, I'm guessing here, maybe in the whole county would be about a hundred feet or so in probably a half mile from the low to the high.  Nothing steep or craggy, a few erosion gulleys, creeks and rivers, some small lakes, nothing more than a mile across in the county, most less than that.  One large city, which I escaped 35 years ago, more towns of around a thousand or two.  The buildings I've put up reflect what I see every day, until they finish tearing them down, then it will be just "ho-hum",  nothing of interest here.

I have (Crash) Bryce (Crash)  but never (crash)  could get it(Crash) to work (BSD)

Doric.

Which version of Bryce is crashing.  Old as they are, I still tend to go to B5 or even B4 (if I need volumetic materials as Corel broke it between 4 and 5).  If I really need to, I go to 5.5 for the DS bridge.  I have higher versions but don't even have them installed. 

Do you have an older version?  IIRC, you can use a format from the USGS to create terrains.  Sorry, I can't remember the format off hand but both those versions do come with manuals so the format is listed.

I never got on with v5 the lack of a converter to convert v4 clothing to v5 killed it for me and I really dont like Studio as the control layout is afwul it takes too long to render unless you have a super computer.

I know its getting a bit old now but i will stick with v4 wm unless someone comes out with a clothing converter to support v5 and v6

Quote - Which version of Bryce is crashing.  Old as they are, I still tend to go to B5 or even B4 (if I need volumetic materials as Corel broke it between 4 and 5).  If I really need to, I go to 5.5 for the DS bridge.  I have higher versions but don't even have them installed. 

Do you have an older version?  IIRC, you can use a format from the USGS to create terrains.  Sorry, I can't remember the format off hand but both those versions do come with manuals so the format is listed.

Don't remember the version number, got it with the book and found I'd just bought what I already had.  (As well as buying Hex again, which also didn't play nice on my computer.)  Kept working at it for some weeks, but thinking maybe this time, then crashing again gets kinda old.  I'd have to resurrect one of my old XP boxes to say for sure, but that probably isn't going to happen.  Another problem is that of my computers, those which I actually use are not allowed to be aware of the existence of the internet.  There are no updates that way, so maybe they were looking for something that hadn't been coded when whichever iteration of windows was cobbled together. 

Doric.

Quote - > Quote - Long story short, my point is simple, albeit likely to cause a ruckus, but so be it: it ain't DAZ' responsibility to do Smith Micro's job for them. 

Since when is it SM's job to follow DAZ?  When DAZ came up with the gray golum, they knew Poser couldn't use it, and they probably knew they would never, ever, come up with a bridge between the two programs.  Something that would partially work, yes, but full functionality with no problems, never. 

It's not SM's fault that DAZ came up with something incompatible, it's DAZ fault.  It's not SM's place to fix the kludge, it's DAZ place, and they're not doing it.  Sorry, take that argument to somewhere else, preferably someplace where the average iQ is 2. 

Daz has their format, SM has their own. For the longest time Daz has fully supported Poser formats and their inclusion of the DSON importer is only evidence that they are making an attempt at maintaining compatibility with Poser. As previously mentioned, SM were approached by Daz who offered their DSON freely, but SM turned down the offer. Now, SM figures have been ugly at best, hideous at worst. I think most of us can agree on that. With that said, the majority of people I've seen are still using Daz figures, whether it's Genesis through the DSON or poser-compatible Victoria 4. I highly doubt that SM are unaware of this, so the onus is on them to either provide a figure which people actually want to use or man up and provide better compatibility.

When most of your customers are using your competitors resources, the smart company provides for them rather than telling them to put up and shut up.

Why there are different files in the first place I'm unsure of. A little bird told me that Daz's more optimised format tends to load faster, though I only have a slightly older Poser Pro 2010 to judge that on so I can't say for it's the same for the newer releases. However, if they were to release two different formats for the same figure you would also need two formats for every clothing item and accessory. Some PA's simply don't own Poser to provide this, just as some PA's don't own Daz to make Daz specific materials.

The upside for Daz users is no matter what Poser throws out, DS can use it because it has maintained compatibility. SM's refusal to do likewise just reeks of foolish corporate elitism. The ball is in their court, but they just don't seem to care.

On topic: I'm not enthused about Victoria 6 either. I dislike the move back to individual figures and twice the number of purchases for no apparent reason. I'm very interested in the new Dawn figure though. Is there a link somewhere to find out more information, or is there very little of that to go around at the moment?

Quote - The upside for Daz users is no matter what Poser throws out, DS can use it because it has maintained compatibility.

That's not true.  DS can't handle Poser's dynamic clothing, hair, shaders, or weight-maps.

They have their own, but they have not "maintained compatibility."

And that might be for the best.  We don't want to be tied to Poser 4 technology forever, do we?

P.S.  The Dawn thread is here:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2868999

Quote -
The upside for Daz users is no matter what Poser throws out, DS can use it because it has maintained compatibility.

Errrrrrrr. No.

The upside for Daz users is no matter what Poser throws out, DS can use it because it has maintained compatibility. SM's refusal to do likewise just reeks of foolish corporate elitism. The ball is in their court, but they just don't seem to care.

From what I have seen so far SM does care. It cares about its customer's and has decided not to cripple the software because another company decided that they were going to change things.  The change looks more questionable by the day and Daz lost a lot of Poser customers along the way.  Read the 'Dawn' thread and you will see they are beginning to lose some very skilled vendors.

SMs approach to the market has always been different to Daz they delevlop software and, on the whole leave the development of figures to the market.  Poser 2014 follows that approach by allowing new figures to have clothing from day one via the fitting room which was well described before the launch.  I support Poser and no longer buy from Daz I am not alone so to say SM is wrong it not correct, a different approach yes.

Now that the is talk of a new 'Dawn' we will see just which one supports their users tha best.  Daz of course will have the interest of their users at heart so I expect to see a detailed thread of the comparissons between V6 and Dawn particualrly as there will be a Daz version. 

In this case 'elitism' does not seem to have any relevance.

Hrm.

Hornet, let me do an analogy.

In the 1980's, the big reason Microsoft got up and ran away with the majority of the PC user marketshare has to do with one mantra: "Software Sells Systems."  

Consider the PC OS (Mac or Windows) as Poser or DS. Consider PC software as the meshes - Vicky, etc etc.  In this analogy, Vicky is the "killer app." People generally don't give two craps about the OS (let alone the hardware), but they will learn to type on a keyboard made out of barbed wire in order to use that killer app. 

Same-same here... The application (DS or Poser) doesn't mean jack to the typical hobbyist. If the app doesn't do it, the plugins, add-ons and complimentary software will suffice just fine (see also the existence of, oh, Vue d' Esprit).

No - what users want is their Fantasy/Steampunk/Faeries/Dragons/pr0n/SciFi/Whatever, and they want it right the hell now. The app is only a means to that end - nothing more.

DAZ (I think they still?) understand that. SmithMicro (still?) does not. 

I think that instead of "software sells systems", the mantra up in Poserland should be "mesh sells apps."

Quote - No - what users want is their Fantasy/Steampunk/Faeries/Dragons/pr0n/SciFi/Whatever, and they want it right the hell now. The app is only a means to that end - nothing more.

But is that really true?

Sure, it's probably true for us Rosity denizens, but Poser also seems to have a lot of commercial/corporate users, who use Poser to make things like late-night infomercials and industrial safety videos. (I see the poor Poser people a lot on channels like Investigation Discovery - getting shot and such in crime or accident scene reconstructions.) 

I wonder how much of their business is us nekkid Vicky in a temple with a sword types.  Maybe not that much.

Quote - Hrm.

 

Hornet, let me do an analogy.

In the 1980's, the big reason Microsoft got up and ran away with the majority of the PC user marketshare has to do with one mantra: "Software Sells Systems."  

Consider the PC OS (Mac or Windows) as Poser or DS. Consider PC software as the meshes - Vicky, etc etc.  In this analogy, Vicky is the "killer app." People generally don't give two craps about the OS (let alone the hardware), but they will learn to type on a keyboard made out of barbed wire in order to use that killer app. 

Same-same here... The application (DS or Poser) doesn't mean jack to the typical hobbyist. If the app doesn't do it, the plugins, add-ons and complimentary software will suffice just fine (see also the existence of, oh, Vue d' Esprit).

No - what users want is their Fantasy/Steampunk/Faeries/Dragons/pr0n/SciFi/Whatever, and they want it right the hell now. The app is only a means to that end - nothing more.

DAZ (I think they still?) understand that. SmithMicro (still?) does not. 

 

I think that instead of "software sells systems", the mantra up in Poserland should be "mesh sells apps."

Accept one of the main reasons given by Poser users not to use Genesis is they hate Studio or cannot get it to work on their system, I fall into the latter group, so they do care about the OS.  I work in a computer shop and believe me people do care about the hardware. 

Daz is a content provider, SM is a software developer of which Poser is only one small part of their business.  I trust SM know their business and despite all those who predicted the imminent demise of Poser when the big 'G' hit has developed two stunning upgrades. Poser 9/2012 and Poser 2014 with some great new features.  I would much rather they concentrated on features and let others do the figures.  You may not like the idea but it is they way they have chosen to go.  The fact that some highly skilled people in the industry are now developing a new figure for the use in Studio and....wait for it...Poser suggest that SM might not be far wrong.

Then again I suspect you know that......."You can wake up someone who is asleep but not someone who is pretending to be asleep".

I'm confused about this..Not to start a war, but If SM only focused on developing software and Daz only figure content, then why does Daz Studio (for FREE) have more useful features like edge creasing, CC Sub-D and proper scaling and smoothing collision and better tools for character creation and support? Features that actually improve a characters usage? Who cares about dynamic cloth, its used by a very small percentage anyways. From a technical stand-point, Daz 4.6 is impressive. So this whole SM is a software developer and they do it better because they specialize in it and don't need to focus on figures is a load of nonsense in my eyes. I have both apps, and to create content I can do it much faster in DS because the workflows and structures are well thought out. Daz does figures, content and their App. What is SM's excuse again? And everybody is sooo in arms about Dawn..Just a few days before there were cries for Roxie and rex support. Guess they are already in the shadows. Same old same old. Disagree with me if you want, but this is how I see the situation. SM needs to up their game, Period. Once again people are getting excited about figures NOT made by them. How will they profit? They won't see a cent off content sales, and this is where they are losing out big time. Content sales are way higher than app sales. If they want to make serious money, they have to enter the playing field and take it seriously. SM have had so many opportunities to make a difference, and everytime they drop the ball.

Quote - I'm confused about this..Not to start a war, but If SM only focused on developing software and Daz only figure content, then why does Daz Studio (for FREE) have more useful features like edge creasing, CC Sub-D and proper scaling and smoothing collision and better tools for character creation and support? Features that actually improve a characters usage? Who cares about dynamic cloth, its used by a very small percentage anyways.

That's your opinion.  (And apparently DAZ cares about dynamic cloth, since they have their own version.  ;-)

Now, it may be that SM is just dumb and refusing to do the sensible thing.  But I'm guessing that they actually know their customer, and what their customer wants.  And we who hang out at DAZ and Rosity are not their main customer.  They're happy to take our money, of course, and even willing to throw us a bone or three, but we're not their main customer.

When I see Poser images and animations out in the real world, it's almost always ordinary people wearing contemporary clothing.  Not improbably endowed people wearing brass underwear and wielding archaic weapons.  I'm guessing that's why the default Poser people are fairly generic and come with normal streetwear.  Again, maybe SM just doesn't know their customer base...but judging from the content they offer with Poser, I'd say their average customer is not DAZ's average customer.  They are aiming for different markets.

Quote - Hrm.

 

Hornet, let me do an analogy.

In the 1980's, the big reason Microsoft got up and ran away with the majority of the PC user marketshare has to do with one mantra: "Software Sells Systems."  

Uh, no.  Microsoft had the "per processer" licensing agreement - that is what sold microsoft's OS. 

ZevO, SM has upped the game, tremendously.  The fitting room, even though there is a small learning curve, for one.  Morph brush for another.  One click merge to weight mapping , I've been playing with Katie and that, it works, makes her a lot better. 

Figures, I've bent Roxie's hip/thigh joints to the point even V4WM would be tearing into crotch crinkles, and Roxie didn't.  I've put PoserWorld's Kate Summer 2009 on Roxie, with acceptable results, actually good results and it was no big deal to do it. 

I use more dynamic cloth than conforming, and daz still can't handle dynamic cloth, except from one single source.  THey're still waiting for the tools to make dynamic cloth to come from who knows where.  I don't believe those will ever come.  daz took a big bite, and found they couldn't chew it.

Roxie and Rex support is coming, although no faster than most of the Poser figures.  But hmm.  The list of vendors that are now going to HiveWire 3d seems impressive.  For the names that are there, impressive, especially considering their exodus from daz. 

I'm not one that makes figure morphs, I seldom use them either.  But, I've always felt that Katie was older in the body, but somewhat lacking between the waist and neck, a couple minutes with the morphing tool and that was easily taken care of.  Then into the fitting room and the above mentioned PoserWorld clothes were fitted to her, very nicely with no hassle.

But, from what I've read, V6 and Gene iteration 2 are slightly rehashed versions of their predecessors, so now who is the stagnant one?  The genesis concept seems good, at first.  COncept okay, execution and practicality somewhat lacking.  Genesis is the 3d version of the taiwanese three in one machines.  Supposedly a lathe, mill, and drill press in one.  It's a lousy lathe, not much of a mill, and a very limited drill.

Doric.

Quote - > Quote - I'm confused about this..Not to start a war, but If SM only focused on developing software and Daz only figure content, then why does Daz Studio (for FREE) have more useful features like edge creasing, CC Sub-D and proper scaling and smoothing collision and better tools for character creation and support? Features that actually improve a characters usage? Who cares about dynamic cloth, its used by a very small percentage anyways.

That's your opinion.  (And apparently DAZ cares about dynamic cloth, since they have their own version.  ;-)

Now, it may be that SM is just dumb and refusing to do the sensible thing.  But I'm guessing that they actually know their customer, and what their customer wants.  And we who hang out at DAZ and Rosity are not their main customer.  They're happy to take our money, of course, and even willing to throw us a bone or three, but we're not their main customer.

When I see Poser images and animations out in the real world, it's almost always ordinary people wearing contemporary clothing.  Not improbably endowed people wearing brass underwear and wielding archaic weapons.  I'm guessing that's why the default Poser people are fairly generic and come with normal streetwear.  Again, maybe SM just doesn't know their customer base...but judging from the content they offer with Poser, I'd say their average customer is not DAZ's average customer.  They are aiming for different markets.

I left out compared to conforming clothing with the dynamic statement. Anyways. You make some valid points, however I am still trying to see what markets they are aiming at if not the Daz, RDNA and Rendo users, who I think are the main customer base.

Quote - ZevO, SM has upped the game, tremendously.  The fitting room, even though there is a small learning curve, for one.  Morph brush for another.  One click merge to weight mapping , I've been playing with Katie and that, it works, makes her a lot better. 

Figures, I've bent Roxie's hip/thigh joints to the point even V4WM would be tearing into crotch crinkles, and Roxie didn't.  I've put PoserWorld's Kate Summer 2009 on Roxie, with acceptable results, actually good results and it was no big deal to do it. 

I use more dynamic cloth than conforming, and daz still can't handle dynamic cloth, except from one single source.  THey're still waiting for the tools to make dynamic cloth to come from who knows where.  I don't believe those will ever come.  daz took a big bite, and found they couldn't chew it.

Roxie and Rex support is coming, although no faster than most of the Poser figures.  But hmm.  The list of vendors that are now going to HiveWire 3d seems impressive.  For the names that are there, impressive, especially considering their exodus from daz. 

I'm not one that makes figure morphs, I seldom use them either.  But, I've always felt that Katie was older in the body, but somewhat lacking between the waist and neck, a couple minutes with the morphing tool and that was easily taken care of.  Then into the fitting room and the above mentioned PoserWorld clothes were fitted to her, very nicely with no hassle.

But, from what I've read, V6 and Gene iteration 2 are slightly rehashed versions of their predecessors, so now who is the stagnant one?  The genesis concept seems good, at first.  COncept okay, execution and practicality somewhat lacking.  Genesis is the 3d version of the taiwanese three in one machines.  Supposedly a lathe, mill, and drill press in one.  It's a lousy lathe, not much of a mill, and a very limited drill.

Doric.

I'm not doubting what you can achieve with fitting room and the new figures. However this is the problem. Those features are only available to those who have the latest version and the majority of the Poser user base are still using older versions before since not all have the money to upgrade or for whatever reason. DS4.6 userbase is more standardized because it is free, so every user has the same ability to use the same tools, and figures. That is the main difference. If Roxie, Rex and WMapping, fitting room could work in all versions of Poser I'm sure they and the tools would take off at a faster rate, but it isn't, so its always going to mean only a percentage will be able to benefit.

All the tools in Poser Pro 14 and DAZ Studio Pro 4.
Have been around since 1998 give or take a year or two.

There just new tools for Poser Pro 14 and DAZ Studio Pro 4 users
that only use Poser or DAZ Studio and no other app's.

Conforming cloths is pretty much a Poser or DAZ Studio thing.

Anyways CGI is a lot bigger then just Poser or just DAZ Studio.
Poser , DAZ Studio are considerd plugs for a lot of App's.

YEs yes, ds is free.  I still believe free because when they did try to sell it, my guess is it was a flop.  But you get the benefit of gene, a program in eternal beta, and the sorryest of excuses for documentation ever put out since undocumented software.

True, not all Poser users have PP2014, but such is life.  Eventually, they will, and they'll still be a version or two behind, again, such is life.  Had it not been for an opportunity to pick up P6 cheap, and upgrade from there, I'd probably still be using P5.  The chance came past me and I grabbed it.  P8 was out a few months after I went to P6, so that says how long I waited.  As far as I know, Poser has never had a free version, and never had to give it away either.  daz gives it away, but if you want more than just the basic, useless figure, your wallet is going to be ripped real good and real fast.

None for me, thank you.  I'm driving.

Talking something down before it's even seen is not something that makes you look intelligent.  I waited when the first gene thing came out, even gave it a few postings of praise, then daz went back to their old way of changing the interface twice a week making the program unusable.  Then a software change and it became totally unstable in my computer.  "COntrol panel>add/remove programs> remove."  End of problem.

Doric.

Quote -   You make some valid points, however I am still trying to see what markets they are aiming at if not the Daz, RDNA and Rendo users, who I think are the main customer base.

I don't know for sure, of course, but just judging from what I see, I'd guess the Poser customer base is much wider than DAZ's or Rendo's.

The last time I saw a Poser image "in the wild" was at work, at a mandatory corporate training session on equal opportunity and the law.  It featured workplace scenes with James and friends.  You don't need Vicky or her slutwear for stuff like that; in fact, it would be highly inappropriate.

I think there's a reason the Poser figures come with ordinary street clothes (as Vicky used to, BTW), while Vicky 6 comes with pinup clothes.  And it's not because either SM or DAZ is too dumb to know what their customers want.  It's because they're appealing to different customers.

All of you who'bashing the Poser figures and their "lack of morphability" -have you ever actually looked at the G2 (no not Genesis 2) people? Even with M4, Simon still remains my favourite. He's easy to morph into something pretty far from the base, AND he's face room compatible.

People seem to forget about the Face Room, just because it doesn't work with the Daz figures, but it's actually a great tool when it comes to "getting different people" from the same mesh.

I HOPE (probably in vain) that this new Dawn will get face room support. (and even more, I hope for a male counterpart)

But it seems to me that a lot of the people dislining the native Poser characters are people who has never actually used them. (And loading one and deciding "yuck" doesn't count ;) )

Sure some of them has serious issues, but overall, they're not that bad. Their biggest probmlem has always been the lack of support in terms of textures and clothing.

Trekkie, the faceroom is probably one of the most underused tools ever included with any software.  And I agree, the poser guys aren't bad at all, even the girls can be made to look very nice.  True, maybe there could be more morphs included, but for just being included in the program, I'm not complaining.  Except, I happen to like James more.  He's got the look of an average working stiff, very useful.

Doric.

Quote - Who cares about dynamic cloth, its used by a very small percentage anyways.

Aye, and there's the rub.

If you do animations, anything other than a cloth sim will look like crap (unless you do toons).

But as a DAZ fanboi told me, we animators are such a small minority that we are not relevant.

It's OK, I've finally got the message...

Quote - > Quote - Who cares about dynamic cloth, its used by a very small percentage anyways.

Aye, and there's the rub.

If you do animations, anything other than a cloth sim will look like crap (unless you do toons).

But as a DAZ fanboi told me, we animators are such a small minority that we are not relevant.

It's OK, I've finally got the message...

LW,C4D,Max,Maya have killer dynamics.

Quote - . People seem to forget about the Face Room, just because it doesn't work with the Daz figures, but it's actually a great tool when it comes to "getting different people" from the same mesh.

I HOPE (probably in vain) that this new Dawn will get face room support. (and even more, I hope for a male counterpart)

+610*23

But Poser often kicks itself in the nuts with strange faceroom anomalies with their own figures. I often have problems with the shape of the eyes. (btw Pitklad has done some amazing free morphs for Poser figures that make their eyes, errrrr, look like eyes...)

Nevertheless, faceroom support for Dawn would be awesome. But SM, pay heed, I need my figures to be able to blink, so... faceroom upgrade NOW if you please...

Quote - > Quote - Who cares about dynamic cloth, its used by a very small percentage anyways.

Aye, and there's the rub.

If you do animations, anything other than a cloth sim will look like crap (unless you do toons).

But as a DAZ fanboi told me, we animators are such a small minority that we are not relevant.

It's OK, I've finally got the message...

Don't take it personal, I never do animations, although I admire those that do, and I don't feel I am relevant to Daz either.  Mind you I only shopped there every month for five years or more so they are probably right.   Not that I mind I found a new home here at Rendo.

Quote -
LW,C4D,Max,Maya have killer dynamics.

Come on mate, I know you're a C4D user, do you honestly think the cloth sims are better than Poser's? 

(They are great for tablecloths, bedding, curtains etc. - but have you tried it on a dress or a skirt?)

Quote -
Don't take it personal, I never do animations...

I don't take it personal mate!

After all, are we not a bunch of very different people doing very different art?

It's all good.

(Apart from naked Vickies in temples with swords and worst of all, with default lights and no shadows. For me, that is even worse than the crap dished up by Simon Cowell...)

Quote - All of you who'bashing the Poser figures and their "lack of morphability" -have you ever actually looked at the G2 (no not Genesis 2) people? Even with M4, Simon still remains my favourite. He's easy to morph into something pretty far from the base, AND he's face room compatible.

People seem to forget about the Face Room, just because it doesn't work with the Daz figures, but it's actually a great tool when it comes to "getting different people" from the same mesh.

I HOPE (probably in vain) that this new Dawn will get face room support. (and even more, I hope for a male counterpart)

But it seems to me that a lot of the people dislining the native Poser characters are people who has never actually used them. (And loading one and deciding "yuck" doesn't count ;) )

Sure some of them has serious issues, but overall, they're not that bad. Their biggest probmlem has always been the lack of support in terms of textures and clothing.

The G2s are actually my favorite - especially now that weight mapping is a 1 click operation in Poser 2014. 

Lots of morphs, quite a few figures (I own 50+ for the females, and a couple dozen for the males - not including 100+ .fc character morps - I do like the faces you made for Simon).  I'd buy more characters for them (and their G1 predecessors) if they were available.

I rarely animate (I do tiny little clips from time to time mostly to amuse myself with *"look, it moves" - one of the reasons why I've often put "movement morphs" in my stuff, too)

But to say the cloth room is only for animators, that's missing the point entirely. The cloth room is SO much more.

It's THE way of draping a sheet of plastic over some pallets, just to name an instance where I've just used it. It's also great for clothes because it looks much more real. Both skirts, capes and robes - basically any flowing garment gets a LOT better with a cloth room simulation.

Sure, it takes some time getting used to. The whole "pose at frame 30" thing for one, but the benefits are a lot more natural looking piece of cloth. 

It's also a great way of fitting soimething to a heavily morphed character.

Yes other programs have dynamics too, but it's hardly fair to Poser to compare it with something like Max. Its a whole other price level. The great thing about Poser is that it's affordable, also to "normal" people and not just companies. And considering what you actually GET for the price, Poser is an awesome piece of software.

My bad My bad it's friday we've been drinking,fell free to grab ya a mason jar and join in:woot:

I was not implying one app is better then the other.
I was just saying if Poser or DAZ Studio dynamics cloth ,hair etc etc,didn't click with ya.
Since we have fussion and all ,ya could always try one of LW,C4D,Max,Maya.
Was just a thought ,nothing more.I know I know I shouldn't think :unsure:

Oh Blender can do just about everything the high end app's can do.Blenders Free

Why I'm at it .

I don't think any app is better then any onther app.
Some app's just click with me better.

I don't think any mesh is better then any other mesh.
I just think some meshes are made for one thing while other meshes where made for something else.

We don't use game meshes and games can't use are meshes.

Hey RorrKonn!

Cool bro, we is good.

To be honest, I use Marvelous Designer for my cloth sims.

Just like you say, we using diverse apps as part of the pipeline to get where we want to go.

It's all good.

Doric.

Quote - But to say the cloth room is only for animators, that's missing the point entirely. The cloth room is SO much more.

Hey hey! Yes I can see that entirely. If I did stills, I would use cloth dynamics just as much as I do as an animator.

I'm just saying, the DAZ fan crew don't like us animators because we complain too much and don't buy enough.

I mean, I complain a lot (SM! WTF up with PoserFusion?!), but at least I get tolerated, and not banned. Crikey, I even get the feeling I'm in some kind of dialog.

Actually, I could do all my animating in C4D if need be. The reason I still use Poser is because I like to. It's cool...

Quote - > Quote - Why not??? Talking about a new figure shouldn't break any TOS.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

 

Well, they deleted my post about it right quick.

I am sure the upcoming release of a Poser/DS native figure by ex-DAZ employees have absolutely nothing to do with the unexpected release of genesis 2.

They deleted mine as well. I don't know why, that sort of trying to hush things up looks desperate. They did not mind us talking about My Michelle and Antonia and Anastasia over there.

I for one want the Daz users to know about this as they should be able to look at the market(the whole market) and make a choice before investing hard earned dollars. HiveWire3D promises to be a great way to mend bridges between Poser and Daz users who have sometimes been at odds.

It may be more of a case of who they are rather than what they make.  We don't know the circumstance of their leaving daz.

Doric.

Quote - They did not mind us talking about My Michelle and Antonia and Anastasia over there.  

That's because those figures were never going to be competition for DAZ figures. Dawn most likely will.

Coldrake

Quote - > Quote - They did not mind us talking about My Michelle and Antonia and Anastasia over there.  

That's because those figures were never going to be competition for DAZ figures. Dawn most likely will.

 

 

Coldrake

Yeah I guess that is probably why. Oh well, a little healthy competition should probably make things better for us users.

(pops head in)

Okay, I'm just going to say this... I'm starting to do textures, but other than that, I'm an end user. I highly doubt that I will ever be much of a content creator besides the textures. I primarily create covers for indie books, and I need lots of free content.

Let's enter "free genesis daz content" into Google.

(hm... hm... type type type)

There doesn't seem to be almost anything here. Okay, let's try ShareCG...

(typety type)

Three pages. And I don't see anything for Gen2 yet.

Now, let's entire in "free v4 content)

(jumps back to avoid virtual flood)

!!! There's a lot out there, let's just say.

On ShareCG...

102 pages.

Yep, one hundred and two versus three.

Now, when did Genesis 1 first come out?

(researchy research)

Okay, I need to keep watching a roast in the oven, so I can't find the exact date. But I found refs to it in May 2011.

It's an Emperor's New Clothes kind of thing, IMHO. Two full years, and there's very little Genesis content that's free out there with a simple casual search. Unbelievable loads of stuff for V4 (and M4, too.)

Guess what a lot of end users are thinking..."Wow, the economy's bad. I want things that are free! Yay! Look at everything for V4!"

Now, I'm a research kind of person, and one thing I've been trying to find for awhile is any actual sales figure for Genesis. I can't find one scrap of information anywhere. I haven't seen anyone else come up with actual, solid facts and figures, and I have looked. That says something to me. There is no transparency, and maybe there's a reason.

So I don't know the whole story, and I don't know if anybody else does either. But this is a bunch of facts that can be put together. And coming out with a new second-gen figure, complete with lots of stuff that will need to be bought and not immediately compatible with the old free stuff without fiddling around, does not seem like a smart business decision to me. A lot of people have already been antagonized by the whole thing. So between the two, I would bet on Dawn being far more successful.

 ETA:

SmithMicro is on NASDAQ, and Daz is not, being a privately held company. Now, there are a lot of reasons why a company might not have gone public, but it means that they aren't required to release financial statements. I've been an investor for a long time (a small one...), and I am very leery of private companies. There's usually a good reason why they haven't made stock available as a public offering. This may be good, bad or neutral... but one day, people may look back on this and... okay. I'm not going to say anything else. Just an FYI...

Quote - It may be more of a case of who they are rather than what they make.  We don't know the circumstance of their leaving daz. Doric.

With most companies, if one of the founders leaves and starts a new company, any mention of them tends to be treated as radioactive. It would be unusual if it was not. 

Quote - (pops head in)

 

Okay, I'm just going to say this... I'm starting to do textures, but other than that, I'm an end user. I highly doubt that I will ever be much of a content creator besides the textures. I primarily create covers for indie books, and I need lots of free content.

Let's enter "free genesis daz content" into Google.

(hm... hm... type type type)

There doesn't seem to be almost anything here. Okay, let's try ShareCG...

(typety type)

Three pages. And I don't see anything for Gen2 yet.

Now, let's entire in "free v4 content)

(jumps back to avoid virtual flood)

!!! There's a lot out there, let's just say.

On ShareCG...

102 pages.

Yep, one hundred and two versus three.

Now, when did Genesis 1 first come out?

(researchy research)

Okay, I need to keep watching a roast in the oven, so I can't find the exact date. But I found refs to it in May 2011.

It's an Emperor's New Clothes kind of thing, IMHO. Two full years, and there's very little Genesis content that's free out there with a simple casual search. Unbelievable loads of stuff for V4 (and M4, too.)

Guess what a lot of end users are thinking..."Wow, the economy's bad. I want things that are free! Yay! Look at everything for V4!"

Now, I'm a research kind of person, and one thing I've been trying to find for awhile is any actual sales figure for Genesis. I can't find one scrap of information anywhere. I haven't seen anyone else come up with actual, solid facts and figures, and I have looked. That says something to me. There is no transparency, and maybe there's a reason.

So I don't know the whole story, and I don't know if anybody else does either. But this is a bunch of facts that can be put together. And coming out with a new second-gen figure, complete with lots of stuff that will need to be bought and not immediately compatible with the old free stuff without fiddling around, does not seem like a smart business decision to me. A lot of people have already been antagonized by the whole thing. So between the two, I would bet on Dawn being far more successful.

 

 ETA:

SmithMicro is on NASDAQ, and Daz is not, being a privately held company. Now, there are a lot of reasons why a company might not have gone public, but it means that they aren't required to release financial statements. I've been an investor for a long time (a small one...), and I am very leery of private companies. There's usually a good reason why they haven't made stock available as a public offering. This may be good, bad or neutral... but one day, people may look back on this and... okay. I'm not going to say anything else. Just an FYI...

Makes ya wonder and another thing when Daz Studio 4 Pro was first released it cost about $600 then a few months later it went free for what they said was for a short period time.  Well as we all know now it is still free you have to wonder why, and probably they knew they would make it back on the selling of content, but it does make you think.

I hope I'm wrong. About what I'm thinking may happen over the next year, I mean. I don't want to be right at all.

That's all I'll say.

(But my record is that I do tend to be right about predicting these kinds of things...)

Anyway. As basically an end user, or a specific type of end user who really just needs a few figures and clothes and hair and simple morphs that I can use for post-production purposes, I'm sticking with V4.2. It doesn't make sense to go any other way right now. (But I will LOVE playing with Dawn! ;)

There is only one reason why DAZ Studio is free, and that is to push content sales. Content sales then push further development in DS, thus attracting more users of DS, who then have to purchase more content for their Genesis figure...and so the trend continues.

Theres a reason why apps like Bryce and Hexagon (and Carrara to some extent), either have a slow or non existant development cycle - they have no content sales to drive development.

I imagine DAZ3D originally had a vision (seeings that they had the Poser content market tied up to all intent and purposes), that Poser users would see this new Genesis figure, swoon over the advanced tech, and follow religiously into DAZ Studio's clutches. I suspect that they missread the Poser community who previously had just tripped over themselves to get the next version of Micheal and Vicky, and do the same thing this time. The problem was, the Poser community actually loved Poser a LOT more than the new Genesis figures, and two: DAZ3D shot themselves in the foot with Vicky 4 and made it too good with people (end user and content producers) not willing to let their investment, just gather dust. V4 wasn't broken (well it was, but with fixes and WM, why change).

...oh let us not forget, DSON. The straw that broke the Camels back.

Now Gen 2 is out and, well, it seems that DAZ3D feels that Gen 1 sales were good enough to continue with ther vision. That means, either DAZ aren't as silly as they look, or just plain arrogant and stubborn.

The only thing that DAZ has that will draw new customers to them is a free DAZ Studio. Established users, have already made their choice. I know many people use both Poser and DS, but I suspect I'm one of many who thinks why should I have two tools to do the same thing. Yes I have DAZStudio installed, but I dont think I've ever used it. I certainly don't desire Gen 1 or 2 enough to start using it...

Quote - Now, I'm a research kind of person, and one thing I've been trying to find for awhile is any actual sales figure for Genesis. I can't find one scrap of information anywhere. I haven't seen anyone else come up with actual, solid facts and figures, and I have looked. That says something to me. There is no transparency, and maybe there's a reason.

Well, you are comparing a figure that has been out and ultra popular for a number of years with a figure that came out recently (with a load of controversy). Genesis is for the most part a flop. It was hailed by DAZ as THE figure to replace V4 and make a huge number of Poser users switch to DAZ Studio. None of those things happened. DAZ had to close ranks and push hard to try and make it survive this far.

The release of a new Genesis, less then two years after the first one... as far as I know is the shortest span between releases of supposedly mainstream DAZ figures since Poserdom's inception also tells you a few things (ie. companies don't abandon very succesful products quickly). If you look at V4 history, two years into it's life, V4 was enjoying a major heyday Many of us used to love DAZ, but have lost faith in it in last couple of years or so of strange business manouvers, and the drastic move with Genesis that split an already small market. Poserdom has never been big enough to succesfully support more than one mainstream figure. While I loved V4, the technology it is built on is getting very dated now. A figure that is easier to use and based on newer technology is much needed.

I know some people cringe having to switch and learn new stuff, changing what works and set habits because someone or something outside changed is usually a PITA.... but that's the risk with all things digital, technology moves fast. For those who prefer a less changing media, pencil and paper may be a better option (I'm not saying that to knock it down, I LOOOVE to draw and paint) it is just as viable as an illustration option as digital media is... although even with that option, there's a lot of learning, perhaps not so much with respoect to keeping up with the changing media, but investment of time and ebergy in honing one's skills seems to be greater.

I don't know.  I have no insight to their practices, and there may be a logic to it.  And it may be that any further development of the gene thing is now limited to adding more poly's, the opposite of their intent to begin with.  Bullet physics added to the Poser physics should give some interesting things to play with, but I'm not that far into it yet.  Weight mapping will probably remain the domain of a few that develop the talent and skills to do it.  THe fitting room is great, yeah, a little learning curve there, not not too bad and the morph brush is a real gift.  When Gene first came out,I toyed with it for a while, but without the morph packs, not a lot can be done with it and I didn't see where it would be any easier than using the figures I already have.

But with any new concept, there is a limit how far it can be pushed before it runs into the ability to be pushed further, some don't have a lot of room at inception.  Where V4 has been pushed far beyond the designers wildest dream already, it's possible Genesis was almost there when it was released.

With Roxie and Rex, I have a couple of new toys to play with, and so far, I'm very impressed.  There are the tools available, there is a lot that can be done with them without the need for anything else.  I'm enjoying the new toys and I'm not going to worry about the Gene thing, I have no need for it.

Doric.