Quote - Well, Trekkie also mentioned she didn't think the native Poser figures were ugly. I guess some of us just begged to differ ;).

One must be careful what one says or asks on an open forum, lest ye get an answer. LOL

Laurie

Right :)

And I do think some of them ARE ugly. Judy for one. And Don isn't exactly pretty either.

But I like that they're all Face Room compatible, it's such a nice and easy way to get some diversity and potentially a figure that doesn't look like any old Poser figure. Besides, the face room is fun to play with. It's IMO fun to hit Random Face and see what pops up :)

And as a general rule I think they look more real than the idealised Daz figures. Real people rarely have such perfect looks (and don't get me wrong, I know you can morph them "ugly" - it just generally takes more time.

I like "ugly" people because to me, they're more interesting than model material :)

Quote - But it don't have to be brought out every damned time someone mentions any figure.  That just gets sickening.  Trekkie asked if it was a nice face, I thought it was a nice face.  All the "realism" talk is just bullpucky. 

Doric.

What gives you the right to decide for me what I find attractive or useful? It's "bullpucky" to me if I say it is.

Now, the fact that you seem to be suggesting that me stating an opposing opinion means I'm invalidating yours is something that perhaps needs to be examined because in my world, it isn't the case, and there's room for lots of differing opinions. I stated mine, knowing full well that, in this forum, it's extremely unpopular. That doesn't mean I think you are required to agree with me, or that your opinions are "bullpucky" just because they differ from my own. Gosh.

ETA: I also think Trekkie's pic is a nice face. The texture is lovely. I just think it may be a little too lovely for the figure and it has an odd effect on me. If it doesn't strike you that way, well, fair enough. Can we live with that? Or must we stand ten paces apart and draw our weapons? ;)

Anyway, I was never that fond of Sydney. Something about her eyes. But now she's the only G2 figure I seem to use.

Quote - A "photorealist" has about zero knowledge of what I'm doing, and is unaware that his ideas will NOT work.  He doesn't care. 

Umm, he doesn't have to. Nor do you have to agree with his views. Life is pretty cool like that.

Quote - If the site {CGSociety - /P } is all consumed with photorealism, then that's where the conversation concerning it belongs.

Didn't realize you were the king and arbiter of all topics discussable. My bad, but before I bow to your authority on the matter, may I see the paperwork granting you that authority? 

Oh, wait - the world don't work like that. Dude, with all due kindness? Get over it already.

PS: If you want to see some kick-ass photorealism, throw your eyeballs at this. (and notice that none of it is CG...)

Quote - > Quote - But it don't have to be brought out every damned time someone mentions any figure.  That just gets sickening.  Trekkie asked if it was a nice face, I thought it was a nice face.  All the "realism" talk is just bullpucky. 

Doric.

What gives you the right to decide for me what I find attractive or useful? It's "bullpucky" to me if I say it is.

Oh, well.  Let the endless, boring, quasi technical treatices on why it's not realistic continue.  They only say one thing, one person's opinion, which outside of that one cranium has no bearing on anything.  But it will continue to be said over and over and over and over and over and over.  Almost as if someone was listening.

Doric

Well...

Nah.  Everyone uses Poser for different reasons, uses it in different ways, uses different figures and achieves different results.  Sometimes, I may want to achieve Photorealism (actually, the idea interests me but I don't have the means to get there yet).  Other times, I may want to do toon stuff, or anything anywhere in between.  It's all good.

Anyone who disagrees can fuck themselves with something sharp is free to do so.  :)  

I really enjoy the new poser figures (Roxie and Rex).

I am using them a lot!

Actually it's interesting how heated any discussion about virtual digital people can get. 

I posted this, not to provoke (honestly!) but to perhaps to encourage someone to actually TRY one of the much-despised (at least in some circles) Native Poser Figures. And at least that bit of the mission succeeded ;)

Basically, what it boils down to is that more figures adds to the diversity. And MAY, in the right hands, add to Poser breaking out of that "same old, same old" loop it sometimes feels like it's stuck in. Don't get me wrong - I HAVE done my NWIATWAS - it's almost mandatory. But if we, as Poser users, want to ... hmm.. show "The World" that Poser is more than a tool for adolescent fantasies... boobs and booties... well.. it means... for one thing.. actually trying your hand with a boob-less figure. A so-called MALE figure ;) And there's actually quite a few of them that looks pretty nice. 

And now.. let the fight discussion continue :D 

Quote - Actually it's interesting how heated any discussion about virtual digital people can get. 

I posted this, not to provoke (honestly!) but to perhaps to encourage someone to actually TRY one of the much-despised (at least in some circles) Native Poser Figures. And at least that bit of the mission succeeded ;)

It did! It did! :biggrin:

And it also inspired me to try out Miki4 who I've hardly used since installing her.... she's lovely!

On to the Poser males next!

I agree there's some mileage in a number of the PNFs but many of 'em look like they were made by Stevie Wonder. :)

Lest ye forget, I have used Judy and Miki 1 in a pic.  I don't think I'd use Jessi for anything other than target practise, though.  :D  

Some sculpting, scaling and modern shaders.

++++++++

Every figure with enough polygons can be made handsome or pretty. That's not the problem.

It's just so much more practical achieving variety by concentrating on a single, highly flexible mesh and turn that into the shapes you want instead of supporting a dozend completely different figures.

Quote - P5 Don vs P4 Dork

Some sculpting, scaling and modern shaders.

++++++++

Every figure with enough polygons can be made handsome or pretty. That's not the problem.

It's just so much more practical achieving variety by concentrating on a single, highly flexible mesh and turn that into the shapes you want instead of supporting a dozend completely different figures.

 

Nice work. Especially on Don. I never managed to make him look human ;)

And while I agree on the general statement here, I'll keep claiming that it's a shame the NPF's has such a generally bad reputation. To me, their biggest asset is that they do NOT look like their DAZ cousins. And, for the sake of diversity, it's important to me. Just the fact that they're not all at the same (monster) height as the Dazians makes them useful, since I'm NOT going to bother with neither DSON or other "migh work" scaling thingies.

This, btw, is Simon. My personal favourite among the NPFs

as a matter of fact, most of the characters on this page is Simon: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/member.php?my_gallery&page=4 (if the link works, should take you to page 4 in my gallery...)

And no, he's not "pretty" - nor is he supposed to be ;)

We have now full control over scaling and joint centers, so as long as the mesh topology is properly constructed, a figure can look any way you like and still maintain cross-compatibility.

Why waste that potential ?

Quote - Actually it's interesting how heated any discussion about virtual digital people can get. 

I posted this, not to provoke (honestly!) but to perhaps to encourage someone to actually TRY one of the much-despised (at least in some circles) Native Poser Figures. And at least that bit of the mission succeeded ;)

Basically, what it boils down to is that more figures adds to the diversity. And MAY, in the right hands, add to Poser breaking out of that "same old, same old" loop it sometimes feels like it's stuck in. Don't get me wrong - I HAVE done my NWIATWAS - it's almost mandatory. But if we, as Poser users, want to ... hmm.. show "The World" that Poser is more than a tool for adolescent fantasies... boobs and booties... well.. it means... for one thing.. actually trying your hand with a boob-less figure. A so-called MALE figure ;) And there's actually quite a few of them that looks pretty nice. 

And now.. let the fight discussion continue :D 

I don't use the Poser figures because they are not well supported and I am most assuredly not "the right hands" to make them look the way I want. So I use what I can, which is, regrettably, the Daz figures.

I also mostly render males.

I don't think of myself as someone who is particularly interested in NVIATs or in adolescent fantasies, though I have done my share of "adult" images. However, the males in those images feature just as prominently, so it's not all boobs. Might be quite a few booties, though. Thanks to Xameva and Meipe, M4's rear end is quite respectably attractive these days. Unfortunately, there's nothing similar for the Poser figures that I know of.

Well, Tyler has a great body and bends really quite well also. But my usage of him, as usual, comes down to lack of support.... Sometimes, even in my erotic renderings, I like to have figures that aren't stark naked or aren't always using the same body/head texture.

But do we really need completely different figures for that ?

Gramps and little Maggie above are the exact same mesh. Do they look "samey" to you ?

Using the new morphbrush, it would be no technical problem to transfer your Simon/Snape face over to David3WM for example.

Then you could have the face you want AND you could use D3WM's better rigging.

If you use Simon, you'd either have to live with his rigging or weightmap him yourself.

And if you use yet another figure, same problem. A new set of problems that needs to be fixed.

But if all figures are derived from a single mesh, support gets much easier.

Anyway, nice Snape morph.  :-)

(He could really need some potion to fix his shoulders, though) ;-)

Use what you want and you're happy with.

My point is:

There is only so much time and energy. I think I achieved more diversity by focussing on a single mesh than by trying to make a lot of different meshes work for me.

Quote - There is only so much time and energy. I think I achieved more diversity by focussing on a single mesh than by trying to make a lot of different meshes work for me.

I agree about only having so much time & energy, which is why I have no intention of wasting time on a single mesh.  For me, the time spent isn't worth the results I get, YMMV.  I have a menagerie of figures, and I use them.

If I need a normal sized figure, it is easier for me to whip out SM's Gen 1 or Gen 2 figures, or any 3rd party figure and start from there than it is to start working the Daz Figures series.

As an added bonus, they do look different.

*"But if all figures are derived from a single mesh, support gets much easier." *

Sounds familiar, Unimesh, Genesis … My personal great idea was always a set of ecto/meso/endomorph bodies and exchangeable heads, but alas the world is not ready for such genius - that's OK, you don't have to illustrate the error of my concept. I don’t know if the protean mesh would catch on in the higher end where they can and do produce distinct versions of even the same character for different uses. For the low to mid range though I think you’re probably correct and DAZ must agree.

*"But if we, as Poser users, want to ... hmm.. show "The World" that Poser is more than a tool for adolescent fantasies... boobs and booties... well.. it means... for one thing.. actually trying your hand with a boob-less figure."  *

Possibly, though artists have done pretty well respect-wise over the centuries with everything from sylphs, to nymphs to, hags, to nursing Madonnas. I don't know that changing the gender mix would have much effect. Any critique based on the abundance of sexy female imagery wouild be replaced by something else. Poser = Pr0n is just an attack that doesn't require much intellect to deploy.

IMO, most of the people voicing those attitudes are uften CGI wannabes who are ignorant or insecure enough to invest ego and identity in their tools. A real professional or wise hobbyist for that matter is going to evaluate a tool based on what it can do and how well it is implemented – not on what others are using it for. You find the closed–minded snobbery in every field and it is certainly present in the Poser universe as well.

I think that technical and artistic acceptance/respect may be different things. Less emphasis on the pin-up or NVIATWAS genres might help in regard to the latter but … more imagination, more depth, more complex images, rich environments, less of the emphasis on portrait/single figure imagery etc. might have a bigger effect. That may apply to a lot of non-cinematic CG art, produced increasingly by those raised on the high contrast, bright, hyper-reality saturated look of TV and film, and more exposed to commercial, product-centric as opposed to fine art. That’s strictly my personal, decidedly untrained, geriatric laymen’s view.

The technical respect issue, is being addressed with each new version of Poser. If SM isn’t aiming at the low hanging fruit of indie and lower budget CGI, they’re doing a good imitation of it. If Blender can play there, there’s no reason why Poser can’t as well. The key is to keep the less technically demanding users on board as well. The CGSociety bashers will continue as long as it’s cool. Let a few of their idols start saying it’s OK and their tune would change. The barrier to that is likely the fact that Poser is a content-centric application. There’s a pro market there for late night infomercials, self-serve checkout videos, accident recreation etc. Those are probably the jobs some people take while waiting to get discovered by ILM. The ‘You didn’t model and rig it yourself in Maya’ critique probably just reflects the reality that the big boys do roll that way – and some of their acolytes can’t see anything else as legitimate. I doubt that Pixar is ever going to use Poser/DS or their figures, at least not for anything that gets onscreen. OTOH, the more versatile and useful they become, the more opportunity exists in markets that are still developing or haven’t even appeared yet. It just takes time.

"My personal great idea was always a set of ecto/meso/endomorph bodies and exchangeable heads, but alas the world is not ready for such genius"

Example 1:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/satoko/40793

Satoko was an anime head that fit on V3, V2, PTVic, Laura, etc.

Example 2:

http://www.runtimedna.com/Melody-2.0.html

"All the charm and warmth of the original Melody can be found here in her newest incarnation, with one large upgrade, she is a parented head instead of a full figure."

For strictly (more-or-less realistic) humans, a morph is simply more convenient as long as the mesh geometry is able to contain the new shape, but if you need radically different head shapes on a variety of bodys, the parented or alternate geometry head still has its advantages.

:-)