Okay, Angelo, here is my take on the NSA hoopla.  It is short and sweet.  I feel it would be good if there was an entity that was outside partisaned politics, executive branch appointment and legistative branch microscopic approval responsible for intelligence gathering and analysis.  Its hierarchy would be selected and promoted based on proven love of country and character.  Our founding fathers were such people and there are still people like that today. 

I hear the cries of "foul" already.  But there are still some uncorrupt people in this country who are of good moral character.  It is when a president or other political power monger tries to sneak a look into all that information for questionable or self-serving purposes that the wheel starts to squeak.  I say leave a sleeping dog lie; it may be guarding the door with one eye open and one ear tuned for action protecting what freedoms we have left.

ever the optimist eh Willie....

HEAR HEAR

Skiwillgee you have taken a real situation, a current event and placed it outside of its context and manifested a totally fictional construct and said…this is the way I wish it was. No, I’ll not cry foul for I too wish it wasn’t happening but that of course would be wishful thinking. It seems to me the letting sleeping dogs lie is exactly what got us into this situation to begin with. For if congress, the sleeping dog, had been doing its job of being watchful of its citizenry’s constitutional rights maybe we would still have them.

Funny that you mention the Forefathers for every time I broach this subject of the NSA I’m instantly reminded of two of Ben Franklyn’s famous quotes;

“Freedom of speech is a principal pillar of a free government; when this support is taken away, the constitution of a free society is dissolved, and tyranny is erected on its ruins.”

And;

“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

Whereas there was a time the subject would have normally meant and may have stood for a sense of national security now terms such as Orwellian, Big brother, secret court, Surveillance State, privacy, intrusion, authoritarian, paranoia, fascism, Stasi, shadow court just to mention a few come to mind. Being a survivor of 9/11 having personally witnessed and having lost family and colleagues in that tragedy we should have been more vigilant not only of the enemy without but also the powers that control our nation. It’s not like we didn’t know they were doing all these secretive things especially with the introduction of the Patriot Act which was proposed, enacted and signed 45 days after the tragedy which naively made it seem like they would be collecting information only from those suspected of terrorism. I was one that supported it as long as there was sufficient oversight I kept saying. Well oversight be damned we’ve let the fox guard the chicken coup and now some of the chickens are gone. But as of 2008 it turns out we are all suspects in the eyes of the government instituted by the people and for the people. And not only are Americans suspect but also our friends and allies around the world as well.

The Patriot Act has come back to bite us on the ars. Instead of providing oversight congress all of sudden seems to be shocked and surprised by the revelations of the Edward Snowden leaks and they’re all scurrying around climbing on their little ponies to make hast corralling the monster that has gotten too big and out of hand. It has come to the point where one of the original authors of the Patriot Act Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner (R-Wis.) has come out against administration claims that the Patriot Act gives them the right to sift through the details of the private lives of its citizens saying “I do not believe the released FISA order is consistent with the requirements of the Patriot Act,” Sensenbrenner wrote. “How could the phone records of so many innocent Americans be relevant to an authorized investigation as required by the Act?”…“The USA Patriot Act section the NSA and FBI cite to justify mass phone surveillance is meant to allow seizures of information directly related to national security probes, not the routine collection of phone records of millions of Americans not suspected of any wrongdoing,” he said referring to Patriot Act section 215 he authored back in 2001 saying further; “And unless national-security officials rein in the scope of their surveillance of Americans' phone records, "There are not the votes in the House of Representatives" to renew the section when it expires, he said in a heated confrontation during the hearing. “No Section 215, no surveillance authority,”

Section 215 - the most controversial provisions of the Patriot Act that allows the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA) to authorize broad warrants for most any type of records, including those held by banks, doctors and phone companies. Lawmakers have repeatedly voted to prevent the act from expiring. The government only needs to show that the information is “relevant” to an authorized investigation. No connection to a terrorist or spy is required.

Well mister Sensenbrenner it happened while you and the rest of congress were asleep at the helm back in 2008 whether deliberate or otherwise when the FAA signed off on mass communication gathering to the NSA via FISA. If I may quote Glenn Greenwald who puts it more concisely than I can;

“…the original Fisa law was enacted in 1978, its primary purpose was to ensure that the US government would be barred from ever monitoring the electronic communications of Americans without first obtaining an individualized warrant from the Fisa court, which required evidence showing "probable cause" that the person to be surveilled was an agent of a foreign power or terrorist organization.

That was the law which George Bush, in late 2001, violated, when he secretly authorized eavesdropping on the international calls of Americans without any warrants from that court. Rather than act to punish Bush for those actions, the Congress, on a bipartisan basis in 2008, enacted a new, highly diluted Fisa law – the Fisa Amendments Act of 2008 (FAA) – that legalized much of the Bush warrantless NSA program.

Under the FAA, which was just renewed last December for another five years, no warrants are needed for the NSA to eavesdrop on a wide array of calls, emails and online chats involving US citizens. Individualized warrants are required only when the target of the surveillance is a US person or the call is entirely domestic. But even under the law, no individualized warrant is needed to listen in on the calls or read the emails of Americans when they communicate with a foreign national whom the NSA has targeted for surveillance.

As a result, under the FAA, the NSA frequently eavesdrops on Americans' calls and reads their emails without any individualized warrants – exactly that which NSA defenders, including Obama, are trying to make Americans believe does not take place.”

Now this is in sharp contrast to Director of National Intelligence James Clapper statement “no, sir, Not wittingly” when asked by Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) “Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?”

And what or who exactly is this secretive Supreme Court parallel shadow court called FISA that the Wall Street Journal says redefined “Relevant” to empower the NSA to mass data-gather? FISA (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court) is comprised of 11 judges nominated by the incumbent President who serve staggered seven year terms taking turns traveling to Washington for a week to handle business and are assigned by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. Today that would be Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. a republican and there seems to be some bias since 10 of the judges assigned are also republican. Which in and by itself shouldn’t be a problem insomuch as they are not biased when it comes to applying the law…ah, yeah right. But their responsibility has somewhat expanded from simply approving warrants to interpreting  surveillance laws which are coming more into play in our lives as our communications technologies expand and are making administrative policy all behind closed doors and in secret. Eric Lichtblau of the New York Times; “In one of the court’s most important decisions, the judges have expanded the use in terrorism cases of a legal principle known as the “special needs” doctrine and carved out an exception to the Fourth Amendment’s requirement of a warrant for searches and seizures, the officials said.The special needs doctrine was originally established in 1989 by the Supreme Court in a ruling allowing the drug testing of railway workers, finding that a minimal intrusion on privacy was justified by the government’s need to combat an overriding public danger. Applying that concept more broadly, the FISA judges have ruled that the N.S.A.’s collection and examination of Americans’ communications data to track possible terrorists does not run afoul of the Fourth Amendment, the officials said.

That legal interpretation is significant, several outside legal experts said, because it uses a relatively narrow area of the law — used to justify airport screenings, for instance, or drunken-driving checkpoints — and applies it much more broadly, in secret, to the wholesale collection of communications in pursuit of terrorism suspects. “It seems like a legal stretch,” William C. Banks, a national security law expert at Syracuse University, said in response to a description of the decision. “It’s another way of tilting the scales toward the government in its access to all this data.”

This fourth Amendment: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”In 2012 FISA heard nearly 1,800 applications from the U.S. government and not one was denied. In fact in its 33 year history FISA has only rejected 11 of 34,000 requests. Unlike the Supreme Court FISA only listens to one side, the government’s side and therefore does not have adversarial recourse and no checks and balances and did I mention it’s all secret away from public scrutiny.

Consider this case; the ACLU is seeking an injunction to stop Verizon Business Network Services, of which the ACLU is a customer, from handing over its phone records. Such collection of records allowed the government to learn sensitive and privileged information about the ACLU's work. Not that I’m a big fan of the ACLU but they do have their moments. This also includes ournalists looking to protect a source or people seeking online help for personal health matters and many others who have a need for privacy.

Michelle Richardson, legislative counsel at the ACLU Washington legislative office said “This disclosure also highlights the growing gap between the public’s and the government’s understandings of the many sweeping surveillance authorities enacted by Congress," Richardson said. "Since 9/11, the government has increasingly classified and concealed not just facts, but the law itself. Such extreme secrecy is inconsistent with our democratic values of open government and accountability.”

"The Patriot Act’s incredibly broad surveillance provision purportedly authorizes an order of this sort, though its constitutionality is in question and several senators have complained about it,". The Center for Constitutional Rights said in a statement. "The Patriot Act provision requires the FBI to notify Congress about the number of such warrants, but this single order covering millions of people is a deceptive end-run around that disclosure requirement."

I think it’s time to kick that sleeping dog awake.

Quest, I found your above post extremely interesting from a foreigner's point of view, one who knows little of American politics. I'm not going to get stuck into the discussion, but it was nice to read such a well written piece.

Echo TheBryster

Quest,

Believe it or not, I am in near total agreement with you on your stand and points made. What I wish to point out is the wheel began to squeak when congress and executive powers began to meddle in and request data collected.  That is the main point I was trying to make when I started this thread.  I was speaking of NSA and not the requests, legislation, executive orders, public disclosures, leaks, etc...  

It was prudent for the US government to question why and how so many signs of ill will and terrorism where ignored or fell through the cracks prior to 9/11.  There was too much duplication of government agencies' efforts and too little sharing of data and analysis (ie  NSA, FBI, CIA, FAA, USCIS, etc...)  That needed correcting.  But like everything political the "solutions" went too far and too long and became a loss of significant freedom and Constitutional protection for the people.  Then the politicos renewed and expanded the Patriot Act instead of approaching it with a mindset of trimming it provisions and restoring some privacy and freedoms once the act had been in place for a few years.  

Then it became apparent that this information could be used for politcal manuevering and power also.  The carrot was now dangling in the faces of those who love power and priviledge of elected hierachy.  Graff and greed is a powerful pull.  To me, it seems the current elected officials think since they appointed the Director of National Security Agency it is now their pawn for personal and professional gain.  It was not always this way. That does not change my stance on the NSA. What has changed is the current agenda to exchange this country's banner of personal freedom for one of socialism at the expense of the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights.

So ultimately I agree with what I think I read in your reply.

I stand behind my views for what and why the NSA was originally formed.  Sending you an IM for some more insight on my reasons.

Thank you gentlemen, Willie, I’m not at all surprised that we’re pretty much on the same page but I am however a little confused by your statement which seems almost self contradictory.

 “What I wish to point out is the wheel began to squeak when congress and executive powers began to meddle in and request data collected…I was speaking of NSA and not the requests, legislation, executive orders…”  

 Furthermore I believe that the “dangling carrot” had always been there at least since 1978 for everyone knows that possessing the ability to harvest such vast amounts of personal data can easily be used to further personal ambitions either for good or ill. That’s why FISA was created in 1978, whose primary purpose was to ensure that the US government would be barred from ever monitoring the electronic communications of Americans as I stated in my post. The real problem begins with the FISA Amendment Act of 2008 (FAA) when they legalized the Bush warrantless NSA program. That’s when Congress needed to step in and put a halt to the whole thing but instead it went almost unnoticed until the Snowden leaks opened their can of worms and exposed them for the treasonous traitors that they are. They are traitors because they’ve allowed FISA, FAA, the Executive branch and the NSA to defile and trample the very Constitution they have sworn to uphold when they first came into office and now threaten this nation’s civil liberties and they should be held accountable.

 I had been watching the Snowden leaks affair very carefully and wandering how the hell had the NSA amass such far reaching constitutionally questionable data gathering capabilities? Obviously some overruling body had to have bestowed those powers upon them. The NSA is but a top secret government investigative tool run under the jurisdiction of the Department of Defense with broad support and resources. Its sole purpose of existence is as its name implies national security within the realm of code breaking, code making and signal intelligence. It is a tool that needs to be reined in for the sake of jurisprudence, the nation and the world as a whole.

 The other part of your statement I have a problem with and if I understand it to mean what I think you’re saying,

 “What has changed is the current agenda to exchange this country's banner of personal freedom for one of socialism at the expense of the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights.”

 I simply don’t see that happening at all. In fact if you are referring to the President as I think you are, then I’m sure many a socialist would take insult and issue with you. Since the philosophical definition of socialism I learned has no resemblance to what the current national economic numbers bear out or for that matter the recent military incursions which seem a bit more strident and many believe have ticked up from the prior administration…if I’m reading you correctly that is. Nevertheless, that would be a whole other and separate topic of discussion and would only serve to detour this post on the actions of the NSA in another direction.

Thats all I've got.  All I can say.  Ultimately I feel we are safer having the NSA.

Well thank you Skiwillgee, there’s no way I would think anyone would like to be deceptively spied upon especially with this country’s ORIGINAL fourth amendment rights of search and seizure without warrant. Even if you have nothing to “hide” most everyone Internet searches for private things that concern them, their family or friends or their practices in one way or another.

I’m not saying in any way that we should do away with the NSA and their practices. They are absolutely needed for this country’s defense without doubt. But they need to be reined in as far as spying on American and other worldly citizens without proper cause.

I fully believe that there are other ways of conducting their surveillance without having to harvest vast amounts of innocent records. Except I think that they were too lazy to find the ways and decided to take the shortcut.

One of the things I’ve noticed since the Snowden affair is that this country’s elite news stations, which happen to be “left of center” politically, have made very little hay over it leading me to suspect that the government’s “left of center” over reaching arm has quieted them down as to not make waves for this administration. For a great deal of my sources I had to go outside the U.S. to get the news and in my eyes, that’s shameful in and of itself.

Nevertheless, many things have evolved since I first posting this and this is one which got my interest;

“…Dr. Joseph Bonneau learned that he had won the NSA’s first annual “Science of Security (SoS) Competition.” The competition, which aims to honor the best “scientific papers about national security” as a way to strengthen NSA collaboration with researchers in academia, honored Bonneau for his paper on the nature of passwords.”

He said;

“On a personal note, I’d be remiss not to mention my conflicted feelings about winning the award given what we know about the NSA’s widespread collection of private communications and what remains unknown about oversight over the agency’s operations…”

http://www.tikkun.org/tikdaily40091.html

Last Wednesday the House floored the Defense Appropriations Act of 2014 that would have defunded the Department of defense’s NSA over-reaching civilian spying programs and it was defeated 205-217. Why?

“The numbers tell the story — in votes and dollars. On Wednesday, the House voted 217 to 205 not to rein in the NSA’s phone-spying dragnet. It turns out that those 217 “no” voters received twice as much campaign financing from the defense and intelligence industry as the 205 “yes” voters.”

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/07/money-nsa-vote/

I guess it takes extra special pressure to get Americans to leave their “reality” shows and potato couch beer suds.

“Pew finds that "a majority of Americans – 56% – say that federal courts fail to provide adequate limits on the telephone and internet data the government is collecting as part of its anti-terrorism efforts." And "an even larger percentage (70%) believes that the government uses this data for purposes other than investigating terrorism."

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/29/poll-nsa-surveillance-privacy-pew?view=mobile

Republicans and Democrats agree: Fisa oversight of NSA spying doesn't work

“Americans expect their government to do the utmost to protect our country, but that cannot mean trading our Fourth Amendment right to privacy for the promise of security. Most Americans understand the need to "connect the dots" to avoid another 9/11, as long as the intelligence community has a legitimate need for the information it seeks and is no more intrusive than absolutely necessary…….FISC does more than simply review and approve individualized warrant requests. The court interprets and construes the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, applying legal and constitutional principles, much like any other federal court. The difference between the FISC and every other court in the United States is that there is no opposing counsel, and their interpretation of the law is highly classified and stays that way by law for 30 years.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/29/end-nsa-secrecy-fisa-court-oversight?view=mobile

I didn’t mention this in my earlier posts but of interest should be; President Nixon’s Watergate caps the reason for FISA;

“The legislation was both a result of concerns over the NSA’s domestic surveillance practices of the 1970s, as well as over the findings of the Church Committee’s investigations into Richard Nixon’s abuses of federal authority to spy on his rivals.”

http://nsarchive.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/the-documents-behind-the-birth-of-fisa-the-invisible-hand-granting-nsas-surveillance-the-legal-ok/

Senators strongly criticize intelligence chiefs over NSA data collection

“On the eve of a major US Senate hearing on the National Security Agency's bulk surveillance, two senators called for major reforms of the NSA's collection of phone records and accused US intelligence leaders of misleading the public about its impact on privacy.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/us-senate-wyden-udall-nsa

XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

“A top secret National Security Agency program allows analysts to search with no prior authorization through vast databases containing emails, online chats and the browsing histories of millions of individuals…”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

Senate panel looking at limits on surveillance

4:33 p.m. EDT July 31, 2013

“Democratic and Republican senators pressed federal intelligence officials Wednesday on the propriety of a controversial surveillance operation that collects the telephone records of millions of Americans, less than a week after the program narrowly survived a House vote aimed at shutting it down.”

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/31/nsa-surveillance-senate/2601953/

I’ve always been a believer in freedom of speech and open source code compiling the way the original Internet was meant to be (I’m showing my age again). And the belief that what is private to you should remain private to you alone. So in that spirit I would like to share a few things that will help make your Internet surfing experience more private. Although I’ve been involved in privacy software before, these are a few things I’ve picked up while researching the NSA/Edward Snowden affair and how to remain “private” and let it be known I’m not being sponsored or in any way being paid for referencing these links. I would simply like to share and if anyone has more to offer…please do.

DuckDuckGo---an anonymous search engine to use instead of the others which allow you to be tracked. Using this search engine you can search the Internet anonymously.

https://duckduckgo.com/

StartPage---another good anonymous search engine. Mind you, these search engines use Google and other popular search engines as their core but strip out the metadata so that you can’t be traced.

https://startpage.com/

DoNotTrackMe---Excellent plugin which prevents advertisers and social networks from tracking you while surfing the Internet.

https://www.abine.com/dntdetail.php

The Tor Project---Electronic Frontier Foundation; ”When you use the Tor software, your IP address remains hidden and it appears that your connection is coming from the IP address of a Tor exit relay, which can be anywhere in the world.” It’s onion routing software that allows you to circuit encrypt link between nodes to get to your destination site making you anonymous as you surf the Internet. This is a great program I use it all the time…for Windows just download the Tor Browser Bundle (TBB), extract to the directory where you want the browser to be and go Tor/Tor Browser/Start Tor Browser.exe but just go to the download page to download your flavor;

https://www.torproject.org/index.html.en

EFF page;

https://www.eff.org/torchallenge/what-is-tor/

Tor- Wikipedia ;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(anonymity_network)

Happy surfing and thanks!

Let me make it clear to all I am not accusing anyone who stands up for privacy as having something to hide.  Quest, you are more well-read than I for sure.  You know my stance and possibly my reasons for defending NSA.

I submit the following for serious thought:

Signal intellegence gathering has been around since radio wave transmission for communication became a norm.  In wartime, masking information in various forms was a necessity since radio waves are the least secure of all communication; hence, Navajo native Americans were used as radio operators in WWII and elaborate coded manual morse transmissions were developed.  These were countered by increased efforts to more intensely monitor said transmissions and increasing efforts to break coded information. There are plenty of books and articles describing those efforts in past modern wars. It is all a very messy, secretive but necessary thing in preserving the ideals and security of any country. One country is outraged to find it is being monitored.  They cry, "Spy", all the while they are doing the same.

I am sure there would be outrage by US officials and the public if they were to find that our friends, the Brits, were bugging our embassy in London.  I am sure the Brits would feel the same outrage if they found the same scenario in Washington. Lots and lots of hurt feelings about violation of trust would prevail. I use the preceeding as an example only to illustrate that someone must guard the cookie jar.  Someone is guarding the cookie jar.  The more mundane the method of communicating evil, the more we must observe the seemingly mundane for clues.

 9/11 brought a new reality to the American people.  There are people who hate us to the point of savagely killing because we are free.  There are people who hate us because we don't embrace their religious beliefs.  (caution here,  I am not attacking a belief system,  I am attacking those evil people who indescrimately kill innocents.) There are people who have brought their war inside our borders.

Cell phones in everyone's hands upped the ante. Cowardly terrorism upped the ante. Human couriers delivering plans and instructions for terrorism across national borders has upped the ante.  Masked email messages in tweets, instagrams, facebook accounts have upped the ante.  Car bombs, shoe bombs, underwear bombs, hijacked planes for weapons, bombs in garbage cans have upped the ante.

All of the above cannot be ignored.

Personally, I trust God above all others even though I know he is watching me.  NSA is not a god but I think it is necessary and good especially if it is insulated from internal politics.  It fails when it is directed by politicians for political gain and not the good of the country. 

What I have yet to see is anyone come forward with a better way to protect our country, families and children.  If you have a viable alternative, submit it now.

Willie, you make some very good and valid points but as I said above and say again, I’m not proposing in any way that we dismantle the NSA. They are indeed a needed service to the country and generally I applaud the work they do. It is their constitutionally questionable methods of harvesting the vast amounts of personal information of innocent Americans that is in contention and nothing else. What’s more is that it is debatable if these covert programs, over the many years of mass collection has really detoured any terrorist attacks at all the way the administration likes to say.

 Of course what I would like to know is that if all this mining of our phone records, bank records, health records, credit records and Internet data is doing such a great job in detouring all these supposed terror attacks why weren’t the Boston Marathon Bombers stopped before they caused all that carnage and mayhem and the killing of 3 people in April of this year? Especially since the Tsarnaev brothers had learned to build explosive devices from an online al-Qaeda magazine called “Inspire”.

 “One person whose privacy was not invaded by U.S. intelligence was Tamerlan Tsarnaev, as he repeatedly visited the al-Qaida online magazine Inspire for its recipe "Build a Bomb in the Kitchen of Your Mom…

Sensenbrenner, who wrote and introduced the Patriot Act to Congress in 2001, says the National Security Agency overstepped its bounds by issuing the order to collect phone log records from millions of Americans…

Now Vice President Joe Biden in 2006 during the Bush administration on the CBS’ Morning Show;

 "Harry, I don't have to listen to your phone calls to know what you're doing," Biden said. "If I know every single phone call you made, I'm able to determine every single person you talk to, I can get a pattern about your life that is very, very intrusive.

And the real question here is: What do they do with this information that they collect that does not have anything to do with al-Qaida?"

 http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/061313-659930-patriot-act-did-not-authorize-nsa-prism.htm?p=full

 In a scathing report from “right of center” RedState an online conservative news site;

The tendency by Government agencies to use “national security” as justification for intrusions into our lives and targeting of American citizens is nothing short of the beginnings of a police state.  You don’t dragnet an entire nation of citizens in the hope of finding the next potential terror cell.  Obviously, it didn’t work with the Tsarnaev brothers.

The recent 5-4 Supreme Court decision allowing the police to collect DNA evidence, for so much as a speeding ticket, is a page out of Orwell’s 1984.  The arms of the Federal Government, from the recent IRS targeting of conservative groups to the huge national database being created by Obamacare would have appalled our Founding Fathers and the Constitution they wrote.

While some people may scoff and laugh outright at the possibility of these databases used someday to track down gun owners, or to crack down on those who write or speak what some bureaucrat has determined to be “politically incorrect” or “racist”, I would beg to differ that day is not far off.  We already have seen several examples how the Federal agencies’ minions have responded, and how the “free press” has stood idly by or participated in the demonization of dissent.  Already we find ourselves very careful what we say in public places, at work, at church, at the store….

… Will they buy into the meme that some freedoms need to be compromised to remain safe?  Are we safer today because we take our shoes off when we go through airport security?  With the chipping away, the drip, drip, drip of our freedoms, when we wake up to take back our country, we’ll find ourselves at the mercy of the bureaucratic simpletons, or thugs, depending upon your outlook, who control the databases that will bring the police or FBI to our doors.  And under the guise of “national security” you may find yourself in jail, detained indefinitely.”

http://www.redstate.com/politicalwoman/2013/06/07/the-nsa-analyzes-our-phone-records-for-national-security-so-why-didnt-the-gnomes-catch-the-tsarnaevs/

And in response to this author’s statement; “We already have seen several examples how the Federal agencies’ minions have responded…” I read with some trepidation this piece about an ordinary family researching pressure cookers and backpacks online got a police visit;

 “A New York woman says her family's interest in the purchase of pressure cookers and backpacks led to a home visit by six police investigators demanding information about her job, her husband's ancestry and the preparation of quinoa.”

 She says:”All I know is if I'm going to buy a pressure cooker in the near future, I'm not doing it online. I'm scared. And not of the right things.” An interesting read.

 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/new-york-police-terrorism-pressure-cooker

 From CNN;

 “Testifying before Congress …, Gen. Keith Alexander, director of the National Security Agency, asserted that his agency's massive acquisition of U.S. phone data and the contents of overseas Internet traffic that is provided by American tech companies has helped prevent "dozens of terrorist events."

 “…Sens. Ron Wyden and Mark Udall, Democrats who both serve on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and have access to the nation's most sensitive secrets, released a statement contradicting this assertion. "Gen. Alexander's testimony yesterday suggested that the NSA's bulk phone records collection program helped thwart 'dozens' of terrorist attacks, but all of the plots that he mentioned appear to have been identified using other collection methods," the two senators said.

Indeed, a survey of court documents and media accounts of all the jihadist terrorist plots in the United States since 9/11 by the New America Foundation shows that traditional law enforcement methods have overwhelmingly played the most significant role in foiling terrorist attacks.

 This suggests that the NSA surveillance programs are wide-ranging fishing expeditions with little to show for them.”

 http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/17/opinion/bergen-nsa-spying

 Senators Ron Wyden and Mark Udall;

“Saying ‘these programs’ have disrupted ‘dozens of terrorist plots’ is misleading if the bulk phone-records collection is actually providing little or no unique value,” said the two senators, who are both members of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

The statement contested Obama’s claim that Congressional lawmakers fully knew about the NSA program to collect tens of millions of domestic calling records from US phone companies, as well as spy on e-mail and other Internet material from foreign targets.
The two senators went on to recommend that government agencies investigating terrorism need simply obtain “this information directly from phone companies using a regular court order.”

“In our judgment, convenience alone does not justify the collection of the personal information of huge numbers of ordinary Americans if the same or more information can be obtained using less intrusive methods,” the two senators concluded.”

http://www.infowars.com/nsa-spy-scheme-played-no-role-in-stopping-terrorists-senators/

Sen. Rand Paul (R-Kentucky) said he hoped to sue the government over the collection of data, calling it “an outrageous abuse of power and a violation of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution.”

As I posted previously in regards to the FISA Amendments Act of 2008 (FAA) we need to bring the NSA to the point before the FISA law was diluted to encourage warrantless collection of data and constrain the FISA definition of “relative” so as not to be applied as broadly as to encapsulate innocent people.

Point: "They are indeed a needed service to the country and generally I applaud the work they do. It is their constitutionally questionable methods of harvesting the vast amounts of personal information of innocent Americans that is in contention and nothing else."

Counter point: So if I install surveilance cameras in my shop to catch shoplifters am I violating the Constitutional rights of lawful patrons?  Why aren't we demanding the removal of all cameras everywhere?  

Point: ""Gen. Alexander's testimony yesterday suggested that the NSA's bulk phone records collection program helped thwart 'dozens' of terrorist attacks, but all of the plots that he mentioned appear to have been identified using other collection methods," the two senators said."

Counter point: Am I to trust the opinions of two senators over the word of a General whose job is to protect American citizens especially when the the two senators continuously vote along party lines supporting an administration that is systematically taking away individual freedoms by executive orders. 

Point: "Sen. Rand Paul (R-Kentucky) said he hoped to sue the government over the collection of data, calling it “an outrageous abuse of power and a violation of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution.”

I like Rand Paul and think this country needs more like him. I would like to hear his solution to tracking down and identifying terrorist without monitoring. 

Rather than going on, I think you and I are both protective of our freedoms to speak and live our lives within current law.  I love being able to discuss this in an open forum. I support the Constitution and all the amendments, including the 2nd amendment which is being attacked vigorously by a lot of the same voices that are finger pointing at the NSA. 

I will close again with this statement. "What I have yet to see is anyone come forward with a better way to protect our country, families and children.  If you have a viable alternative, submit it now." 

I find it somewhat puzzling that no one else has weighed in on this thread. 

“Counter point: So if I install surveilance cameras in my shop to catch shoplifters am I violating the Constitutional rights of lawful patrons?  Why aren't we demanding the removal of all cameras everywhere?”  

You can lawfully install as many cameras as you want in your shop as long as they are not in a reasonable expectant area of privacy without notice or permission like bathrooms, dressing rooms, hotel rooms and sometimes elevators. Each State has its own laws regarding surveillance cameras. But you cannot come into my home and surveil my privacy.

“Counter point: Am I to trust the opinions of two senators over the word of a General whose job is to protect American citizens especially when the the two senators continuously vote along party lines supporting an administration that is systematically taking away individual freedoms by executive orders.”

Yes…Senators are elected officials which can be voted in or out of office at the whim of the populace. They stand to lose their jobs if not done to the liking of the voters. Also Sensenbrenner the author of the Patriot Act is from the other side of the aisle.

Although General Alexander’s job may be to protect the country’s citizens he is answerable to the government not the people, it is also his livelihood and position of status amongst Capitol Hill officials. A position which he doesn’t want diminished or to lose and the agency he heads stands to lose federal funding if the surveillance programs are shut down.

“Point: "Sen. Rand Paul (R-Kentucky) said he hoped to sue the government over the collection of data, calling it “an outrageous abuse of power and a violation of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution.”

I like Rand Paul and think this country needs more like him. I would like to hear his solution to tracking down and identifying terrorist without monitoring.”

And;

"What I have yet to see is anyone come forward with a better way to protect our country, families and children.  If you have a viable alternative, submit it now." 

As far as Rand Paul; Yeah I like him too.

As to solutions…they’ve already been mentioned in my post. First from the CNN report;

“…but all of the plots that he (Gen. Alexander) mentioned appear to have been identified using other collection methods……a survey of court documents and media accounts of all the jihadist terrorist plots in the United States since 9/11 by the New America Foundation shows that traditional law enforcement methods have overwhelmingly played the most significant role in foiling terrorist attacks.

 This suggests that the NSA surveillance programs are wide-ranging fishing expeditions with little to show for them.”

So this mass surveillance is of no or little use and is only done for the sake of expedience. But in so doing, they are dredging up the records of innocent Americans and the terrorists could be monitored using standard collection means of investigation.

And in light of this I posted; “… in regards to the FISA Amendments Act of 2008 (FAA) we need to bring the NSA to the point before the FISA law was diluted to encourage warrantless collection of data and constrain the FISA definition of “relative” so as not to be applied as broadly as to encapsulate innocent people.”

"I find it somewhat puzzling that no one else has weighed in on this thread. "

I did say I would not get involved here, other than to keep the peace. That no one else has chimed in tells me that you both make compelling and well-informed arguments, not to mention brilliantly written, and that anyone trying to compete with the above would most likely get shot-down in flames in very short order.

I think you guys have just set the gold standard in intelligent OT thread posting. Keep it up!

Thanks for the compliment, Chris.  I like Angelo and value his views.  I pretty sure if the s**t hit the fan, we would have each others backs.  That is what makes this country great.

Yes, absolutely your compliments are most appreciated and I’m happy that we were able to have a civil open debate over what is unquestionably, at least to me, a very pressing issue in this country and the world at this time.

I personally would like to thank Willie for having brought the issue to an off topic post where it could be aired in public for I’m sure the NSA issue and its involvement in this country’s history is very dear to him as a concerned patriotic American.

I’ve always liked Willie. Over the many years here I find that he’s self assured with a quiet demeanor…he comes off as a guy that’s been around, has had his share of hardships and keeps moving on. I can see that in him from all the way back here. I come from the rough, tough and tumble ghetto neighborhoods of Brooklyn New York born and raised. And I have a sense that there’s no one I would trust more guarding my back than him.

Of course, there’s no telling who would stumble upon this thread and take issue with all.

This will be my last post on this matter unless someone else presents a different viewpoint.  

Where I feel Quest and I disagree most is in whom do you trust most and whom do you trust least.  I have more faith the NSA doing what it does remaining in a shadow realm and alerting the country when a real or potential threat is detected.  Again, I direct you to my previous post concerning international espionage.  It is done universally.  It breaks the rules.  It is treated with outrage when it is uncovered--- but it doesn't stop.  All parties involved continue doing what they feel necessary to protected their sovereinty.  Quest and others are outraged to find they are included in a sphere of observation.  I am not.  I truly believe it is for the good of the nation.   

 I have little faith in relying on elected government nowadays.  I feel it is more likely elected politicians use data for their own gain than what a general may leverage for personal purposes.  There can be rotten apples in both bushels but I think when it comes to decisions balancing personal gain over what is best for this country's safety, I choose the NSA.  Let the sleeping dog lie with its one eye cracked open and one ear turned up, it has both our backs.

Thomas Jefferson:

“All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent"

"Experience hath shown that even under the best forms of government, those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."

James Madison:

"The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home"

"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be under the guise of fighting a foreign enemy"

John Adams:

"Liberty, once lost, is lost forever"

Benjamin Franklin:

"It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority"

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

Thomas Paine:

"That government is best which governs least"

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government"

Outrage doesn’t begin to express my disdain for the improprieties this government has allowed to be visited on its citizens over the last few years. All justified under the pretense of in the defense against terrorism when it has become blatantly obvious that spying on its own innocent citizens and subverting their Fourth Amendment rights goes way beyond the pale. A government protecting its country from its enemies is one thing; a government protecting itself from its citizens is quite another…that’s the start of tyranny.

The genius of the Constitution is that it strove to empower a federal government to govern a nation and at the same time govern itself by creating three independent branches of government with a built-in system of checks and balances; the executive branch (The President), the legislative (The Congress) and the judicial (The Supreme Court), and yet not impede on the rights of the individual. Nowhere in the Constitution is there a provision for the secret shadow court that is FISC (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court a creature of Congress). Yet FISC has been signing off (rubber stamping) on government surveillance programs through the NSA that infringe on the constitutional rights of American citizens. It begs the question; who is checking and balancing FISC? I pray for all those who over the centuries made the ultimate sacrifice and laid down their lives to protect the Constitution.

So on this point I disagree with Willie, that the question on who we trust becomes moot when government and an arm of that government, in this case the NSA, is one and the same. So with that in mind it would suffice to say that I trust neither with my country’s constitutional rights. I don’t think that this entire discussion on the questionable practices of the NSA who is empowered by the questionable laws passed through FISA should be trivialized by minimalizing it into a simple packaged question of trust.

Rather, the question should center on those we have entrusted with the privilege of being vigilant over this country’s laws and hard won rights. What were they doing while our rights were being drained away? Sure, now they’re all running around with their pants down and pointing accusatory fingers at one another now that the public eye is on them and is demanding answers and putting pressure on them. Sleeping dogs indeed.

Brandon Smith of PPJ Gazette;

“At the very foundation of perhaps every modern day conflict between the expansive powers of unchecked bureaucracy and the dwindling freedoms of the ordinary citizen dwells the vital issue of privacy. Privacy and the right to hold personal and political views without being singled out and scrutinized by government is absolutely essential to any society which dares to deem itself “fair and just”. Ultimately, without the presence of these two liberties, and without people to defend them, a nation is ill equipped to circumvent the growth of tyranny, and anyone claiming to be “free” in the midst of such a culture is living a delusion of the highest order……

Under tyranny, privacy is usually the first right to be trampled in the name of public safety. Its destruction is incremental and its loss a victim of attrition in the wake of more immediate crisis. Disturbingly, many people become so fixated upon the threats of the moment that they lose complete track of the long term derailment of their own free will in progress. Government, no matter how corrupt, is seen as an inevitability. Conditioned by fear, desperation, insecurity, and sometimes greed, we begin to forget what it was like to live without prying eyes constantly over our shoulders. In the past decade alone, Americans have witnessed a substantial invasion of our individual privacy as well as a destabilization of the legal protections once designed to maintain it. Not just America, but most of the modern world has undergone a quiet program of surveillance and citizen cataloging that goes far beyond any sincere desire for “safety” and into the realm of technocratic domination.”

http://ppjg.me/2011/10/06/why-criminal-governments-spy-on-citizens/

” Today the government is spying on Americans in ways the founders of our country never could have imagined. The FBI, federal intelligence agencies, the military, state and local police, private companies, and even firemen and emergency medical technicians are gathering incredible amounts of personal information about ordinary Americans that can be used to construct vast dossiers that can be widely shared through new institutions like Joint Terrorism Task Forces, fusion centers, and public-private partnerships.  And this surveillance often takes place in secret, with little or no oversight by the courts, by legislatures, or by the public.”

http://www.aclu.org/spy-files

Fortunately there has been some movement recently from the sleeping dogs in the right direction but I contend that it shouldn’t have taken the revelations of a computer analyst; one Edward Snowden to have rattled their cages by bringing some transparency to the monstrosity the Congress had created and should have been on top of all along.

“Members of Congress are considering 11 legislative measures to constrain the activities of the National Security Agency, in a major shift of political opinion in the eight weeks since the first revelations from whistleblower Edward Snowden…..

…If enacted, the laws would represent the first rollback of the NSA's powers since 9/11…

There are other lawmakers who are pushing for more profound reforms. They include Republican James Sensenbrenner, the author of the post-9/11 Patriot Act, which the NSA has used to justify some of its data collection methods…

Sensenbrenner said the Patriot Act was being interpreted to allow for forms of surveillance that were never envisaged when it was passed. He now supports an Amash-style bill that would prevent the NSA from hoovering up phone records without specific justification…

Intelligence officials have struggled to show how collecting bulk phone metadata was critical to foiling even one terrorist plot…

"It has become increasingly apparent that the balance between security and liberty has been tainted," Sensenbrenner said in a statement after he left the White House meeting. "The conversation was very productive and everyone agreed something must be done."

A good optimistic sign of this happening is that it has an abundance of bipartisan support. To see which other congressmen and senators are pursuing the issue click on the links below.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/02/congress-nsa-legislation-surveillance

Also see;

http://www.ibtimes.com/nsa-fisa-controversy-congress-looks-reform-secret-court-1348875

One very troubling issue is section 215 of the U.S. Patriot Act which seems most egregious and needs to be reformed. The ACLU on section 215;

“Section 215 vastly expands the FBI's power to spy on ordinary people living in the United States, including United States citizens and permanent residents.

• The FBI need not show probable cause, nor even reasonable grounds to believe, that the person whose records it seeks is engaged in criminal activity. 
• The FBI need not have any suspicion that the subject of the investigation is a foreign power or agent of a foreign power. 
• The FBI can investigate United States persons based in part on their exercise of First Amendment rights, and it can investigate non-United States persons based solely on their exercise of First Amendment rights.
• • For example, the FBI could spy on a person because they don't like the books she reads, or because they don't like the web sites she visits. They could spy on her because she wrote a letter to the editor that criticized government policy.
• Those served with Section 215 orders are prohibited from disclosing the fact to anyone else. Those who are the subjects of the surveillance are never notified that their privacy has been compromised.
• • If the government had been keeping track of what books a person had been reading, or what web sites she had been visiting, the person would never know.”

http://www.aclu.org/free-speech-national-security-technology-and-liberty/reform-patriot-act-section-215

So I can be sectioned 215 because I’ve exercised my freedom of expression (First Amendment) by writing this post and not know that I was a target of surveillance and therefore my privacy compromised. And if I were sectioned 215 and approached about it, I would be prohibited of ever telling anyone. How would I approach the services of a lawyer? Very spooky stuff (pun intended).

But wait it gets better still. During my research I came across articles from several years ago which generally went unnoticed which also ties in with these surveillance programs. It’s all very shady and illusive mostly because of the security nature of the whole thing but it seems some people have put some patches together.

It entails a database search engine software owned by Inslaw Ink. (William Anthony Hamilton and wife, Nancy Burke Hamilton) Written back in 1970 Called PROMIS (Prosecutor’s Management Information System) to help keep track within the legal system. The government appropriates this program and later in the 80’s it gets tied into a secret government database code name called Main Core. The existence of this database was first reported on May 2008 by Christopher Ketcham from now defunct Radar Magazine. It is claimed that eight million Americans are listed on this database as of 2008 and; “According to a senior government official who served with high-level security clearances in five administrations, “There exists a database of Americans, who, often for the slightest and most trivial reason, are considered unfriendly, and who, in a time of panic, might be incarcerated. The database can identify and locate perceived ‘enemies of the state’ almost instantaneously.” He and other sources tell Radar that the database is sometimes referred to by the code name Main Core. One knowledgeable source claims that 8 million Americans are now listed in Main Core as potentially suspect. In the event of a national emergency, these people could be subject to everything from heightened surveillance and tracking to direct questioning and possibly even detention.”

http://www.salon.com/2008/07/23/new_churchcomm/

If all this is true then, who knows…maybe I made the list.

More database links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Core

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inslaw_Inc._v._United_States_Government

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/07/salons-new-revelations-illegal-spying

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecutor%27s_Management_Information_System

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/main-core-a-list-of-millions-of-americans-that-will-be-subject-to-detention-during-martial-law_06112013

http://www.scribd.com/doc/44581072/Promis-Main-Core-Time-line-and-Documentation#fullscreen

http://www.globalresearch.ca/spying-on-americans-business-as-usual-under-obama/13249

Interested in what could be found out in metadata see;

http://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty-national-security/my-life-circles-why-metadata-incredibly-intimate

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/interactive/2013/jun/12/what-is-metadata-nsa-surveillance#meta=0000000

NSA Spying On Americans FAQ;

https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/faq

Gees, I thought I had deleted the first post after correcting some spelling errors on it. Chris, would you please delete the first of the 2 posts...thanks

P.S. I IM you about this.

Quest you know we are both under a microscope don't you?  

I hear the clicks on my phone line whenever I talk to Quest on the phone. I know they are listening. :)

hahahaha at Angie.  

LOL...and I've been screaming at Verizon because of a bad connection. Really tho, I had the conversation with Verizon and they promptly informed me that they were only doing what the law requires. But they didn't like the fact that I knew and told them about smaller companies out west that have stood up and refused the government to tap their customers. I told them they should be ashamed of themselves. The reality is that I think I've been on the list for a very long time. I can't get a clean line any where.

Have you all watched the wikil leaks your secrets movie? 

No, haven't seen it yet Rosie. I will when I get a chance.

Just a few updates concerning this post as far as the NSA and American rights are concerned and trivials from around the world that happen to be off-shoots of the same problem.

Earlier this week I read about how the FBI pressures Internet providers to install surveillance software from CNET.;

“The U.S. government is quietly pressuring telecommunications providers to install eavesdropping technology deep inside companies' internal networks to facilitate surveillance efforts.

FBI officials have been sparring with carriers, a process that has on occasion included threats of contempt of court, in a bid to deploy government-provided software capable of intercepting and analyzing entire communications streams. The FBI's legal position during these discussions is that the software's real-time interception of metadata is authorized under the Patriot Act.”

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57596791-38/fbi-pressures-internet-providers-to-install-surveillance-software/

Then I hear from the Tor Project;

This is a critical security announcement.

  An attack that exploits a Firefox vulnerability in JavaScript [1]

  has been observed in the wild. Specifically, Windows users using the

  Tor Browser Bundle (which includes Firefox plus privacy patches [2])

  appear to have been targeted….

  Tor Browser Bundle users should ensure they're running a recent enough

  bundle version, and consider taking further security precautions as

  described below…”

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57596791-38/fbi-pressures-internet-providers-to-install-surveillance-software/

The Tor anonymous system has been attacked and who are the culprits;

“Initial investigations traced the address to defense contractor SAIC, which provides a wide range of information technology and C4ISR (Command, Control, Communications, Computers, Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance) support to the Department of Defense. The geolocation of the IP address corresponds to an SAIC facility in Arlington, Virginia.

Further analysis using a DNS record tool from Robotex found that the address was actually part of several blocks of IP addresses permanently assigned to the NSA. This immediately spooked the researchers. “

The NSA…those same people who can’t stand a free and opened Internet that government can’t tax and control (yet) and want to subjugate their people with, now becomes open target.

Under the scurrilous threat and guise of terrorism, child pornography or any other arguments from the government that the general public can’t stand, It gives them “reason” under the name of protecting “American rights” to follow through on falsified and aggrandized accusations.

Eric  Eoin Marques who owns his own server amongst all those servers that favored the Tor project but in the end of itself it garnered scrupulous sites is not what the Tor project is at all about. These are but stepping stones through a better garden. There will be some bad apples.

The Tor project continues to offer unrestricted open uncensored, communication among people, cultures and societies, internationally. It has learned the NSA infiltration as a javascript weakness in FireFox 17 and now continues from lessons learned. Please open your minds and seek answers to a deeper world.

More updates:

*"Newly uncovered documents directly challenge statements made by President Obama and other officials who insisted that the National Security Agency was not abusing its authority or knowingly violating Americans' privacy. *

The Washington Post reported on an audit and other secret documents that allegedly show the NSA broke privacy rules and overstepped its authority thousands of times since it was granted new powers in 2008."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/16/nsa-documents-challenge-obama-claim-that-surveillance-programs-not-abused/#ixzz2c8ypqnxA

I say my point of view is strengthened by pointing out that the abuses made public coincide with elected officials (newly elected president and a new Democratic controlled congress) putting their self serving, dirty hands into what has always been a dirty international endeavor dealing with national security.  I'm not so naive to believe "new powers" did not come with political favors owed.  It is the current presidency that has denied any abuses by NSA right up to this new revelation.   If I tell Quest to clandestinely shoot his neighbor and he does but later gets caught, I can stand before witnesses and state "Quest did not abuse his power."  I am being truthful to the neighborhood because I secretly know I gave him the authority, mandate and the means to do it.  I say fingers should be pointed not towards NSA but to elected politicians.  

I’ve been away on a little vacation and haven’t received an ebot in regards to this thread and only came in to see what’s new in the forum.

I’m seeing the obvious in your last post, that we’re now desperately trying to turn this NSA issue into a political football and looking to tie this whole NSA affair around the neck of an opposing political party and the incumbent President in order to satisfy some politically motivated itch and agenda. I’m sorry that you feel the need to do that but I (being a registered Independent) need to bring the issue back into focus and say that the NSA issue didn’t start with the current administration, it has been evolving over the years.

I’m in no way saying that elected politicians haven’t tried to capitalize on the existing legal conditions under which the NSA thrives on but we need to remember that the “ghost court” FISC anointed the N.S.A. with those constitutionally questionable amendments. Need we be reminded that the majority of judges that constitutes FISC are republicans and that the first politician that tried to turn the NSA loose on international American phone calls without a warrant (2001) was President G. W. Bush, also a republican? Who, buy the way, went without condemnation. Furthermore, the FISA Act of 2008 was passed on July 9, 2008…Obama was elected November 4, 2008 and took office as President of the United States on January 20, 2009 least we forget.

It is interesting to note that Obama voted to expand the FISA Act in 2008 when he was still Senator. This only shows that Obama was for the expansion of the Act back in 2008 as much as he was for the expansion of the 2012 FISA Act also. If anything, he’s shown that he’s for NSA’s profusion and proliferation even more than the people who feel that their constitutionally given fourth amendment rights and privacy means nothing when it comes to the illusive “security” they may imagine they will bask in.

It behooves me to wonder why it was that Edward Snowden thought before he decided to release the NSA documents that Obama would be the newly elected President that would make it all alright. Perhaps he thought that once Obama became President and got the lowdown on the NSA and the unabashed, in-your-face domestic public snooping that was going on, that he would put an end to it, but that unfortunately was not to be the case…so much for a misguided optimism.

In fact in many circles it is often said that Obama has escalated the Bush-era policies. It is cited that;

1. The military-industrial complex is stronger than ever.

2. The police state is also stronger than ever.

3. Habeas Corpus has been tossed into the trash bin.

4. Obama is killing more people in drone strikes than Bush ever did.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-shammas/obamas-second-term_b_3720893.html

And if you want to read more about the abuses;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/espionage-act

The thread focuses on the abuses that the NSA has brought upon our citizens and the FISC court which allows them to. And the fact remains that it’s the FISC and NSA which needs to be revamped by congress. Obama like Bush and all elected Presidents will come and go every one or two terms of office but the laws and amendments passed by FISC which allows the NSA to continue down the path of compromising our rights and privacy will continue to perpetuate down the long run. It is paramount that this scourge be halted inasmuch as is needed to keep the probing eye of an intrusive government out of the lives of its innocent citizens.