Ok well anyway, in short, all I want is a 3D lady that looks realistic for in my comics. Expressions, fat rolls, movements, clothing and genital detail is important for me. Dawn just isn't useful, unless I spend about four months doing the following:

• make lots of facial morphs / expressions
• copy Lali's laila's Julie's FBMs and face morphs and textures to Dawn
• make about 30 different bodytypes (proper ones, not that Hivewire stuff)
• a whole lot of breast morphs, I mean a LOT!
• JCMs for the thighs
• JCMs for the abdomen (fat rolls)
• relocate the thigh pivot to the anatomically correct position and redo the WM
• JCMs, symmetry JCMS for the genitals (well over 100)
• reprogram lali's Bits for Dawn
• refit all of my clothing to Dawn

... eh, no. I will only go through that torture if there's something really really compelling about the 3D figure, like integrated genitals, or V4 compatibility...

BTW#... for those who are interested...

The Karina genital (at ShareCG) works quite well with Dawn with just a few adjustments to the up/down and front/back controls. Lali it ain't, but if it's a big deal for you, the solution is about 60 seconds away.

And thats a quick solution to a problem!! Lol.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - And thats a quick solution to a problem!! Lol.

Amazing what happens when I think a minute! I ought to do it more often!

Quote - The same thing with any genitals, sooner or later they will appear.

oh definitely, they probably already have. Like dude just said there, karina's already works and Lali's will need adjusting.

All I wanted to say is that I just don't feel like making all those morphs again for Dawn. I'm really sorry, I can't! First of all, I am not impressed with Dawn she's not as great as people say she is, its not worth wasting energy on her (maybe Dawn 2 will be). Second, it is a LOT of work, a lot! The only reason I made it for V4 is because I really needed it. Now that I have it, I'm happy. that I could sell it, was a bonus.

Now what I really want, is a full woman, designed for erotic comics, designed to look very lively from the get go! I'll go through hell to do that... in fact I already started :)

And that will do until someone does one specifically for Dawn.

So, I'm just waiting for a nice MR skin to appear to play with, but I know one will apear before long. I just have to wait that little bit longer.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

The thing is, you mentioned about spending 4 months doing them.

In that time would you be paid for it? No.

In the end would you be giving them away free for a period of time? No.

Dawn's base is here, it is that, a base, a starting point.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - The thing is, you mentioned about spending 4 months doing them. In that time would you be paid for it? No.

sure, but its not about money. I will not have a life left. What about Dawn 2? Dawn 3? what about all those poor buggers over at DAZ that have been begging me for a Bits for Genesis? IMO Genesis is even better than Dawn, that would be much more worth it... the only problem is the company haha.

4 months is optimistic, btw. It took me probably a year to develop it. I made it in context of the comics, which helps with finding out what works and what doesn't. Asking me to do that with another figure, all over again, just sends shivers down my spine!

Well, just because people ask you to do something does not mean you have.

I used to tell people the hardest word in the world in "No" as people don't know how to use it.

Someone could ask me to do a set of textures for Dawn's clothing, I don't have to do it.

If I want to do something then I will, but just because someone keeps asking does not mean that they get it.

I'm sure other poeple will make gential options.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

You mentioned you were making your own character, well, you can make all the options you like for it and then release it.

In the meantime, I see a few more Dawn items have appeared in the market place.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - Well, just because people ask you to do something does not mean you have.

yeah but it does make me feel guilty somewhat, and some even get annoyed because of it. So I try to explain why, but that's hard when people seem to already have fallen in love with a character that has only just come off the shelves... :P

I've read somewhere that some think its is an unwillingness to change. Hm... Its an unwillingness to go through hell again for something that is no different from what already exists. I love change, if it is really change, that is. Re-inventing the wheel is boring.

So yeah someone else is gonna have to do it.

Guilt is not a reason to make things.

If people cannot understand that you don't want to do something then it's their problem and you don't need to take it on to yourself. Life is too short for that.

You can always put ideas to one side and do them later, if you want to.

The world is full of people always wanting things at this exact momnet and cannot wait, hell I've been one of them at times, but we all learn in the end that we have to wait.

There are so many things I would like to see for Dawn, but I would only ever put them out as a request and hope that someone would take it on at their own pace.

Content makers can get burned out so easily trying to keep up with peoples expectations and some of the users who ask for things, don't realise how much work can go into things.

So, a little word to those out there wanting things, ask nicely and you may get what you want, but don't expect it to be there at that exact minute.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - Content makers can get burned out so easily trying to keep up with peoples expectations and some of the users who ask for things, don't realise how much work can go into things. So, a little word to those out there wanting things, ask nicely and you may get what you want, but don't expect it to be there at that exact minute.

hehehe thanks for that. Indeed, its not easy and it gets underestimated.

I am generally good with saying no (cuz otherwise I'd have gone crazy by now). I confess that part of the frustration on my side is that I just don't get the hype. Dawn is not bad, and its good that its supported. But she's not worth all the fuss IMO.

Fine, time to move on!

Quote - HW3D made their opinions clear in the development of Dawn, that is their right to do so as they did the work.

They said they had no objections to others making those options, so others are free to do so.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

 

The point is that we wish to move away from conforming genital props and into genitals being fully integrated part of the mesh, making all manner of things easier.

Or at least providing polygons in the right places for doing so third party.  If I try to add my own polygons I ruin compatibility, and if I add a conforming prop I make everything I ever do after that 3 times harder.

 

 

Quote - > Quote - HW3D made their opinions clear in the development of Dawn, that is their right to do so as they did the work.

They said they had no objections to others making those options, so others are free to do so.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

 

The point is that we wish to move away from conforming genital props and into genitals being fully integrated part of the mesh, making all manner of things easier.

Or at least providing polygons in the right places for doing so third party.  If I try to add my own polygons I ruin compatibility, and if I add a conforming prop I make everything I ever do after that 3 times harder.

 

 

 

oh that's what you meant!!!!

ok let me quickly delete my comment

*tiptoes away

No probs, I know what it's like making stuff, testing it etc. It takes a lot of time and energy that you don't get back.

I appreciate things that people make as I kow what has gone into it.

Sometimes the most simple things can cause the most problems and something that is complicated is done so easily.

When people start making things for themselves, then they see how much work there can be!!

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - > Quote - Well, just because people ask you to do something does not mean you have.

yeah but it does make me feel guilty somewhat, and some even get annoyed because of it. So I try to explain why, but that's hard when people seem to already have fallen in love with a character that has only just come off the shelves... :P

I've read somewhere that some think its is an unwillingness to change. Hm... Its an unwillingness to go through hell again for something that is no different from what already exists. I love change, if it is really change, that is. Re-inventing the wheel is boring.

Only if all you're doing is the old wheel over and over again. Someone had to re-invent it several times to improve it to the point where it is today, or maybe you'd prefer the first version some caveman did thousands of years ago.

But look, don't feel bad, others will step up, and maybe even do a better job than you would have done. Hey, you're better than me though. I wouldn't even know where to start or how.

Quote - > Quote - Content makers can get burned out so easily trying to keep up with peoples expectations and some of the users who ask for things, don't realise how much work can go into things. So, a little word to those out there wanting things, ask nicely and you may get what you want, but don't expect it to be there at that exact minute.

hehehe thanks for that. Indeed, its not easy and it gets underestimated.

I am generally good with saying no (cuz otherwise I'd have gone crazy by now). I confess that part of the frustration on my side is that I just don't get the hype. Dawn is not bad, and its good that its supported. But she's not worth all the fuss IMO.

Fine, time to move on!

The "fuss" is because lots of folks are simply excited to see a new figure to work with.  Some of us feel like V4 has been done to death, if you will.

And, while it's not a big deal for your purposes, it is for others. 

I don't, personally, find Dawn impressive either.  But, I sure don't belittle nor begrudge others their moment of euphoria at the sight of a new figure to work with.

But, cheap shots at her are simply unnecessary and look like nothing more than the competition trying to stifle her use.

Dawn's rig will mature.  Dawn's users will adapt or not.  I say let her stand on her own and quit beating her up for the sake of beating her up.

It looks very petty.

Quote - When people start making things for themselves, then they see how much work there can be!!

definitely!

Quote - Only if all you're doing is the old wheel over and over again. Someone had to re-invent it several times to improve it to the point where it is today, or maybe you'd prefer the first version some caveman did thousands of years ago. But look, don't feel bad, others will step up, and maybe even do a better job than you would have done. Hey, you're better than me though. I wouldn't even know where to start or how.

Hehe. Its crazy! Even I struggled to get started. But who knows... I wish him / her luck!

I just think its time that we grow up and start making some proper stuff, instead of the same old formula again and again. Sexless dolly -> merchandise, and the pervs conjure up some fanny. Let's stop that now and make a proper dolly. There's a fairly sizable market for it, and enough people that would probably support it.

Quote - > Quote - HW3D made their opinions clear in the development of Dawn, that is their right to do so as they did the work.

They said they had no objections to others making those options, so others are free to do so.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

 

The point is that we wish to move away from conforming genital props and into genitals being fully integrated part of the mesh, making all manner of things easier.

Or at least providing polygons in the right places for doing so third party.  If I try to add my own polygons I ruin compatibility, and if I add a conforming prop I make everything I ever do after that 3 times harder.

 

 

And, for clothing makers, a covered up genital area introduces a lot of modeling that is simply unnecessary.

You can't make life simple for EVERYone, just for some.  So, you pick and choose your battles and move on.

Quote - But, cheap shots at her are simply unnecessary and look like nothing more than the competition trying to stifle her use. Dawn's rig will mature.  Dawn's users will adapt or not.  I say let her stand on her own and quit beating her up for the sake of beating her up.

It look very petty.

Well I am not taking cheap shots. I have a big fan base and I'm at risk of pissing some of them off, which I don't wanna do. People have entrusted a lot of confidence in me and I owe them. But after spending a year elbow deep in CR2 programming, Poser, DAZ Studio, DAZ legislation, the 3DX market, and 3D figures, I feel I know a few things about the things that make a 3D figure work. My shots at Dawn, are just pointers as to why she's just another 3D figure. That's not good or bad, is it?

I do hope Dawn's rig will mature, even though I don't want to get involved. There are issues with it. Have a look at the pivot location for her thigh bone to the hip. That is not the correct location in a human. Since it is a 3D figure, therefore not real, it might seem like a minor thing. But we are trying to simulate real humans, not so? I think it could become an issue for animators and people that will eventually make bits for her, or maybe not. Take a good look at the movement. It looks weird. that is definitely not a cheap shot. I do feel that that is a rightful and mature argument to be worried about investing time and money in Dawn, not so? Might be worth discussing at least.

Dawn's rig will mature, but unfortunately without polys in all the right places, there is a very short glass ceiling that will limit that maturation.

It isn't a new generation, it's a regression in a few key ways. 

New figures are becoming ubiquitous these days, the standout figure that will capture the attention of the entire community will be one that:

 

Has no bending issues

Has realistic expressions

Has a neutral face and neutral body shape for maximum individualization

Has all expected morphs and more

Has Genitals out-of-the-box and built in to the geometry

I can't think of anything else to add, these few things are all that is required. 

 

It is maddening that V4 came out 1000 years ago and since then nothing has been better, even though people are always pipe dreaming about how a new figure should be, key factors are always ignored.

Quote - Has no bending issues

Has realistic expressions

Has a neutral face and neutral body shape for maximum individualization

Has all expected morphs and more

Has Genitals out-of-the-box and built in to the geometry 

thanks!! I'm writing that down.

Quote - Since it is a 3D figure, therefore not real, it might seem like a minor thing. But we are trying to simulate real humans, not so?.

 

Someone is going to come along and say "Not so"

 

"Hey bro, all I ever do is anime, man!  Realism is for noobs, dude!  lolrofl"

 

So allow me to pre-mock that person so I am not individually insulting anyone.

 

Person who thinks this:  You have a problem understanding reality and though you may be a rare exception you only serve to prove the rule.

Refrain from posting "Not so" reply for your own benefit.

Wonders to self.......

If Dawn is so bad, why use her?

Just go back and use whatever make you happy.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - > Quote -  

"Hey bro, all I ever do is anime, man!  Realism is for noobs, dude!  lolrofl"

 

ROFLCOPTER

Quote -
If Dawn is so bad, why use her?

not bad, just another 3d figure...

I will use dawn, in fact. She's a perfect extra in a scene, like V5 and V6.

Quote - Dawn's rig will mature, but unfortunately without polys in all the right places, there is a very short glass ceiling that will limit that maturation.

It isn't a new generation, it's a regression in a few key ways. 

New figures are becoming ubiquitous these days, the standout figure that will capture the attention of the entire community will be one that:

 

Has no bending issues

Has realistic expressions

Has a neutral face and neutral body shape for maximum individualization

Has all expected morphs and more

Has Genitals out-of-the-box and built in to the geometry

I can't think of anything else to add, these few things are all that is required. 

 

It is maddening that V4 came out 1000 years ago and since then nothing has been better, even though people are always pipe dreaming about how a new figure should be, key factors are always ignored.

 

Those things and also not a lower poly figure that's designed to take advantage of the subdivision in one piece of software making it difficult to render in anything else.

No, those options you said, would appeal to a set amount of the community, not the entire community.

Nothing appeals to everyone as all people are different.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Paganeagle:

 

More flexibility benefits EVERYONE.

 

Don't be silly.

Attached Link: My Gallery to have a couple of Dawn Renders later today or tonight

> Quote - I think that many vendors are tired of cranking another V4 item. I think many customers are tired of seeing "what's new for V4". Let's try something different, and see if it helps both vendors and buyers. > > V4 won't go a way. Many people, for a variety of reasons, don't have the latest versions of Poser, and perhaps never will. > > If looks were the only factor in a figure's succes, V4 would have died an early death. We shall see what the future brings for Dawn. > > A lot of the discussions about new figures seem to be cut and paste. "New figure, kill!!!!" I suspect there is some trolling, but don't know for a fact. > > Have Dawn, like her so far. Unfortunately, this is the year of bad timing. Won't be able to buy anything until next payday. Some hard decisions coming up. > > Dawn is a new figure. Is she perfect? Of course not. No affordable figure is going to be. She seems eminently usable. Perhaps we have the figure to end the V4 curse. At least for users of the new version of Poser. > > Thank you to the Hivewire team, and best of luck.

 Quote, right on BINGO even.  Here is my brief rant as well then I will explain;

""I tried Dawn, but where are such items as Mouth open close, tongue shapes etc etc . The starter morphs list only a fraction available with V4. I have already heard disappointment after disappointment with V5 now V6 etc and now Dawn ? The posing ability seems very good, but recent add on for V4 make it still more relevant and affordable... thanks but no thanks I'll be sticking with V4 for now.""

 Now yes Dawn bends beautifully, the best yet even, better than V5

v6 Genesi Gia etc starting to get the picture ???

  but, I have noticed that while there is a lack of the crack like un smooth joint lines at the knees hips etc.  The hip area takes on an odd square shape during extreme bends.  Might just be me.  Also the majority of people using this will not be developers.  I do have ?Morphing Clothes by Sesseler, to convert V4 clothes to Dawn, and oddly enough some of the body poses I have work perfectly.  BUT there are no directions as to how to use the famous jaw of Dawn's or even just open her mouth.  Now I only have the freebee, so could someone direct me to her mouth chest bits etc etc ?  I even have a custom designed essential naughty girl bit that works great with her.  I suggest that HIVEWIRE3D get together with all the major V4 vendors and help them provide free cross over upgrades from V4 to Dawn, for such items as clothes shoes etc etc with people such as Sessler.  Now that would truely help Dawn move along nicely and roll over V5, V6 Genesis, Gia, TY etc etc etc...   I'll put up a composit render shortly

 

 

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I don't think I'm being silly when I point out that a list of your options wouldn't be the same as a list of someone elses.

I haven't got a use for gential options, others may have, but you don't speak for me when you say an entire community.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - No, those options you said, would appeal to a set amount of the community, not the entire community.

A set, but sizable, judging from what I've seen on my Lali's Bits stats. It should be easy for them to provide an adjusted mesh for that set. But that just never happens. Why is this part of the community always neglected, by everyone. Why so shy?

Again, you can only speak for a set amount, not an entire community.

I'm not shy, but I don't use genitals.

I render what I like and because it isn't the same as what you do, then, as I say, you can only speak for that amount of people.

People will use what they want to use, no one can force them to use something they don't want to use.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - I don't think I'm being silly when I point out that a list of your options wouldn't be the same as a list of someone elses.

I haven't got a use for gential options, others may have, but you don't speak for me when you say an entire community.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

 

If I ask the community "Would you like increased flexibility and a wider range of options?" I would consider 99% "Yes" a good enough chunk of the community to even include you, whether you'd like to be or not.

If that answer even went only so far as to include 80%, I'd still feel pretty safe.

 

I think you're arguing with blinders on.  You love Dawn?  All the power to ya, Sir, but the critiques are valid and the counterpoints not so tough on grease.

Quote - > Quote - so anyway, I was just wondering what everyone thinks about her shoulders. I'm sure someone can make a morph to change this shape, but do you find the shape of her shoulders a bit like the old weight mapped elbow problem of other  figures? ie too round or something?

When I look at her shoulders I think 3rd Generation Daz figure.  Though to be fair,  I think the same thing when I look at her topology. 

Until the moment the figure actually released, I quite frankly thought it was a practical joke meant to prove that the anti-daz crowd would fawn over anything, even if it was a blatant step backwards, just because it wasn't made by daz.

 

For a large, HUGE part of tbe community that uses Poser and cant take advantage of Genesis, Dawn is a step forward. Too bad Daz thougt they were to important and didnt make genesis more poser friendly. If they did, they could have been enjoying all this excitement.  Its something many of us have been telling them is important, but they didn't listen.

I was super excited about genesis way back..,, till it became clear it  would not work for poser. Bad business move on daz's part. Good figure, bad business move killed it.

If I ask the community "Would you like increased flexibility and a wider range of options?"

That one I would agree.

If you asked, do you want genitals.

Then I would say no.

I'm sure others will either agree or disagree, but that's my point. I'm speaking for myself as that is all I can do. I cannot speak for someone else.

You want genital options, I don't. I'm not shy about nudity, people have seen my V4 Pixie enough to know that.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - Again, you can only speak for a set amount, not an entire community.

I'm not shy, but I don't use genitals.

no dude I'm not saying you're shy, I'm saying they're shy! But they seem to never speak for our community. It seems like the 'sexless' community is the only community that these guys wanna cater for directly. Why? 

Proper genitals has always come out if the community from vendors that bother. What I am saying is, doesn't this community deserve a little respect? I mean, we invest a LOT of money into all of their stuff, why not a little integrated joy from their side? It just never happens, and now Dawn comes out with even lesser polys in the area, and not even a hint of pubes in her texture map. Even V4 had one!

HW3D mentioned about non genital skin maps at the beginning.

I've invested a lot of money in things, but the onl ygenitals I have ever had is the ones for M4 that came with the pro version and I have never used them.

Perhaps X amount of people are not into making images that you do? I'm not saying they are right or wrong.

Just because people don't say something does not mean that they either want or don't want something.

It's just that they haven't said it.

Out of a 145 pages in the free thread, not a lot of mentioning about genitals. The quetions were asked, as I expected them, and quickly people understood why HW3D didn't want to do them.

The thread was there for people to contribute to Dawn's development.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

erogenesis:

 

I believe this problem originates well outside of the Poser Art community.  A huge amount of people are still sexually repressed and this repression usually takes itself out on the female form or on female sexuality in general.

If  female has genitals, then they are potentially sexual.  If no genitals, they are "pure" and therefore no sexual shame in enjoying their form.

Not so true on a Male, because can have genitals yet be portrayed as "flacid" and asexual so there is no shame in a flacid penis.

Even a Ken Doll has a noticable bump where a penis should be, but Barbie has nothing.

 

What I find fascinating is that somehow everyone that creates a brand new human female figure has the same mindset, that genitals don't belong.  I think the more talent an artist has, the more they are afraid to tarnish their reputation with the idea of sexual perversion for taking time and effort to sculpt Vag. 

 

A few new figures over the past had included genitals, but the figures were useless.

Ero, take this idea and run with it if you like:

 

I've always thought that the xxx Poser users could benefit from a highly articulate Torso for close-up action shots.

 

Hip, Thigh, abdomen, chest, upper arms and neck.  The focus of course being on the genitals and all that they could do with a LOT of polys.

 

So normal figure for wide shots with head and everything and an articulated torso for closeups. 

 

 

Too low poly??? Allow me to disagree.

I still have to see the very , and I mean the very - very first character, that actually USES 10.000 of all the available polygons in ANY figure.

Polycount HAS to be justified by muscle definition.

If extra polycount is NOT justified by muscle definition, it is pollution.

Untill now?
All of what I have seen till now,; from ANY mesh?
And I do this since Poser 1?

ALL could be done with 7.500 polygons.

Dawn, "as she is right now" gives the impression of being too low poly because there is absolutekly NO muscle definition in the mesh.

You need to have the polys there for muscle and even bone definition by way of morphs that come stock or later as an expansion.

 

You shouldn't see all that stuff in the default figure.

 

Polys are potential, lack of polys are a glass ceiling.

Quote - HW3D mentioned about non genital skin maps at the beginning.

Perhaps X amount of people are not into making images that you do? I'm not saying they are right or wrong.

But I don't understand. I make plenty of sexless art, that's not a problem for me.

My query is about the people that do make the sexy images like I do, and there's a few very talented and respectable artists in this field. It's maybe a small community, but still a sizable one, enough to add a few zeros to anyone's profits. And still nothing gets sorted for us. I wanna know why?

That HW3D mentioned all sorts of stuff at the beginning is, I know, but that still doesn't answer the question about why they didn't make anything in that area (like all the other 3D figures).

Its starting to become a bit disrespectful, and in a way, arrogant. But that's just how I feel about it.

I added this while you where typing.

Dawn, "as she is right now" gives the impression of being too low poly because there is absolutekly NO muscle definition in the mesh.

There are more then enough polygons, but they are not used in any way.

Thank you for your honest, if disappointing, assessment, erogenesis. Hopefully, someone will take up the challenge. After all, almost everyone has genitals.

There are very loud people in the community that feel they are "above" sexuality in Poser art.  If one enlarges a breast, they are vocal about it and usually kind of snide and condescending...much the way Max users used to be about poser users back in the day where poser renders were puke awful.

They rule on high from their Ivory Towers and for the weaker people amongst us they become afraid to even share their work and raise awareness.

So it seems that the pruder, puritanical set is larger in number and it is imagined that the market should cater to that.

 

Quote - erogenesis:  I believe this problem originates well outside of the Poser Art community.  A huge amount of people are still sexually repressed and this repression usually takes itself out on the female form or on female sexuality in general.

oh I have become well aware of that phenomenon...

Quote - Ero, take this idea and run with it if you like:  I've always thought that the xxx Poser users could benefit from a highly articulate Torso for close-up action shots. 

Hip, Thigh, abdomen, chest, upper arms and neck.  The focus of course being on the genitals and all that they could do with a LOT of polys. 

That is Project E! :) fully integrated, V4 compatible lady.

but even with project E, I am going to provide a genital-less version for non-sexual scenes to leave out the poly processing. Its very easy! In fact i need it to speed up scene rendering.

if some poor bugger in African can provide those options, why can't they?

A figure is so much more than just a set of genitals. Dawn does not have them, HW3D is not going to do them, a solution has been given.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Talk about assuming what people are!!! LOL.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - A figure is so much more than just a set of genitals. Dawn does not have them, HW3D is not going to do them, a solution has been given.

So therefore ignore the genitals alltogether, even though sexiness pretty much dominates the media and most of DAZ's and Hivewire's advertizing...?

Outside of genitals, I'm afraid Dawn also lacks in that area too, ok to be fair, off course that will grow, with time... sure, its not all sex... but for crying out loud, sex is quite a big thing in the history of mankind. We've killed each other over it! Why not just a little representation? its just daft.