I wish there were a 'General Discussion' forum where I could post this. But since there isn't any I thought I might just as well post it here.

At issue is the exaggerated emotional bond that CG artists develop with their favorite 3D app, to the point of not tolerating any negative comment about it.

In technical terms this behavior is called Infatuation.

The infatuation for a 3D app isn't just specific to Carrara. All users of 3D apps show infatuation symptoms. Sometime the infatuation is mild and sometime it's so strong that it's alarming.

For example go to the 3DS Max forum and post a comment like: '3DSMax is an outdated behemoth that is crumbling under its own weight' and you will see the kind of hostile reactions you will get.

It's almost as if the infatuation with a 3D app gets established at the level of CG artist's DNA. It affects the artist's behavior so badly that it makes any kind of productive talk very difficult.

By comparison you don't see people develop emotional bonds with Microsoft Word to the point of not tolerating any negative comment about it.

Same thing is true for, say movie editing apps. You don't see a Sony Vegas user or an Adobe Premiere user starting a fistfight because someone made a negative comment about these apps.

Same thing for music production software like Sonar or Cubase. You don't see hostile reactions from the users of these apps, because you dared to say that they are outdated or that they need long overdue improvements.

Actually you rarely see anybody infatuated with an industrial product. You don't see someone brandishing a sword and screaming proudly that 'I am a Fordist' or 'I am a Nissanist' or 'I am a Kodakist' or 'I am a Sonyist'. And if someone behaves in this manner, he would be immediately laughed at and will be told to behave rationally.

I think CG artists should be made aware that becoming infatuated with a 3D app is not a healthy attitude. They should be taught in Art School to come to grip with themselves and not allow their emotions run wild about the 3D app they are using, even if that 3D app puts food on their table or turn them into an award-winning artist.

3D apps are just tools to get the job done. They all have their strengths and their weaknesses. Those who point-out a 3D app weaknesses are not enemies of mankind.

The next time someone talks negatively about your favorite 3D app, be it 3DS Max, Maya, XSI, C4D, Lightwave, Modo, Shade, Carrara, or whatever, don't pull-out your sword to bring him/her to justice. Just think of how you would react if the negative comment was about Black & Decker tools, or GE washing machines, or Samsung refrigerators, or Sony cameras, or Ford cars, or Boeing airplanes, or any other industrial products that you use in your daily life, and try to behave the same way, i.e. stay indifferent. What's the point of even reacting?.

From one Doc to another ... you have made some interesting observations.

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

Hehehe...come over to the DS and Poser forums sometime ;). They'll prove your point. LOL

Laurie

I think this is more of an issue for hobbiests and casual users - especially when the software is expensive.

In the pro world, it seems to be all about fluency, speed, results and workflow. 

It's never the software that's king, it's always the results. 

I agree with Mark.  When you look at the list of software used to make Kung Fu Panda, you will see that pro shops use lots packages to get the job done.  Hobbyists don't spend 100,000 budgets to make a movie and instead, invest a lot of time and personal cash and ownership into one package.

The result is very real and significant attachment, protection, and ownership which you ares. seeing.

Go to the pro forums.  You see the same reactions on CGTalk or Polycount too.  Not to the same level, and usually the reactions are well educated, but most high end software has it's fanboys too, and those guys work for studios.  I was shocked at the level of fanboyism that was in the game studio I worked at for a few months.  If you had said that about Max there, they would have come at you with pitchforks and torches, it's true.  However, they would have crushed you with VALID points and well educated retort, and that's usually the difference I see between the fanboys in the high end, vs. the hobbyists who think they know what they are talking about.

I'll defend the software I use if I see someone saying bullcrap about it which isn't true, because false statements about a package can spread like wildfire, and people BELEIVE what they read unfortunately.  If you haven't used a package for years, you simply don't know what it's capable of, especially one as deep as Maya or Max.

I see misinformation is RAMPANT in many forums regarding all software, but in particular 3D software, because there seems to be a disproportionate amount of "experts" who want to become heros in 3D, but really don't know what the hell they are talking about.  It's easy to tell.  Just look at their body of work, if they have any.

Unlike most other medium, 3D can take years and years to master a package.  Of course you will build an attachment to it.  It's no different in high end, in fact, there's even MORE attachment by folks there, who have gone to school to learn their trade, and were taught on a particular package.

It's understandable actually, if you invest big money in an application, and years of learning, to defend that package, and stick with it.

The thing I don't get are the hobbyists who complain and defend a package that is either FREE, or very low cost and EASY to learn (comparitively speaking).  That to me is the thing I will never get.

Blender has more fanboys that will hang you should you criticize it than any other software I know.  WHY?  You're getting it for nothing.  Try spending half your life savings into a package, then spend 10 years learning it, and using it to land jobs, etc., then you have earned the right to either complain about it, or defend it to the death.

One more thing to consider here, guys, is that no one ever brings up the fact that the software companies and studios in the CG business both facilitate the hostile competition that exists between the users of certain packages.

You don't hear many studios being called a "Photoshop" house, but high end software companies are PROUD to list all the studios that use their software, and what movies were created with the help of their product, etc.  Blur Studios were for years known as one of the BEST CG companies in the business, and they were famous for being a 3dsmax house, which was rare, because most of the companies in FX at the time were Maya.  Blur's Acadamy award winning shorts were what convinced me to decide to learn 3dsmax.

This was at the PEAK of the Maya/Max "wars", where Alias still owned Maya, and AD was going to move in for the takeover to stun all the Maya users.

You say you don't see the level of software attachment in the pro field?  I say you weren't looking in the pro forums during that time, where Maya and Max users were at each other's throats over how AD would turn Maya into another Max, or possibly combine the two into one big unstoppable force.

Things are much more calm now.  You usually see cooler heads prevail.  Most maya and max users concede that there are good points to both software, and it's good to use both for different strengths.

Then you have mid-level and lower cost products perpetuating the notion that you "don't need to be an artist" to create beautiful art with their software.  Really?  You don't have to be an artist to creat art?  That's new.  But that's the kind kind of mentality they give people.  That if you use their EASY to learn software, you can create the same kind of things you see the big studios making, at a fraction of the cost.

So now you have all these hobbyists out there thinking they are as knowledgable as the pros, and DEMANDING their software company make software with the most cutting edge features, for practically nothing.

Yeah, there's exaggerated emotional attachment.  It's perpetuated by the very nature of the 3d industry.

Thank you guys for all your informative comments and insights.

@ Maxxxmodelz:

First let me say that my comment at the beginning of this thread regarding '3DS Max being an outdated behemoth crumbling under its own weight' is a negative comment that I made-up to get my message across.

I actually think, based on the trial version of 3DSMax, that I used a couple of years ago, that it is a great package and I will use it as soon as I have a project that needs such levels of sophistication. At this time however Carrara and Shade are enough for the kind of work I am doing.

I believe that the 'infatuation' with a 3D app affects all CG artists from hobbyists to semi-pros to real pros. They all show symptoms of deep, worship-like, attachment to the 3D app they use and they become hostile if someone dare speak negatively about it.

I also agree with you that the steep learning curve of these apps, compared to a word processor or a movie editor, is one reason for this deep bond that gets established between the CG artist and his/her favorite 3D app.

I believe however that CG artists must be made aware of this fact and must be taught to handle negative comments gracefully and professionally, by proving that they know the 3D app inside-out, that they know its strengths and that they are also aware of its weaknesses.

It's a lot more productive to show the nay-sayers examples of the great achievements done with the beloved 3D app, explaining to them what can be done, or cannot be done, with it rather than going at theit necks and starting a fight where nobody wins.

I actually think that a CG artist should handle a negative comment like he/she would handle rude remarks by an interviewer during a job interview, i.e. stay calm, hold your ground, show the interviewer that you know what you are talking about, that you are on top of your subject and that you are fit for the job. Explain as rationally as possible why his remarks or expectations don't make sense. If you make the mistake of losing your temper and react angrily, the interviewer will gladly show you the door and that will be the last time you'll be heard of.

I agree with your point in general - people get very strongly attached and a bit strange about their favorite software.  But as a software professional, I do not agree with your assertion that it's especially strong in 3D software. 

Counterexamples (some more historic than current):

Excel, Quattro Pro, or Lotus 123?

Word, WordPerfect, or OpenOffice?

Photoshop, Corel Painter, or Gimp?

Illustrator or Corel Draw?

Oracle, SQL Server, or DB2?

Vi or EMACS?  ;)

And, of course, the ultimate example that makes the most heated 3D software argument seem like a playground disagreement:

Windows, MacOS, or Linux?

Quote - I agree with your point in general - people get very strongly attached and a bit strange about their favorite software.  But as a software professional, I do not agree with your assertion that it's especially strong in 3D software. 

 

Counterexamples (some more historic than current):

 

Excel, Quattro Pro, or Lotus 123?

Word, WordPerfect, or OpenOffice?

Photoshop, Corel Painter, or Gimp?

Illustrator or Corel Draw?

Oracle, SQL Server, or DB2?

Vi or EMACS?  ;)

 

And, of course, the ultimate example that makes the most heated 3D software argument seem like a playground disagreement:

 

Windows, MacOS, or Linux?

 

Hey! What are you trying to do, start a riot? Are you some kind of crazy?

:)

I think that people that use this software invest a lot of time and money into it, sort of like they do their relationships or their children. Most use it every day. It's no wonder then that they develop a sort of affinity for it. As for most pro end software (and you pros will have to forgive me, but I've seen it time and again) is more a snobbery than a rabid devotion. Poser users, Daz users, Blender users are more or less pond scum to some of the people that were lucky enough to have the funds, the talent and the time to have one of the big boys ;) Didn't go to school for 3D? Tsk, tsk. Go crawl back under your rock ;).

Me? I don't give a rat's petutie what you use as long as it gets the job done or the amount of schooling thereof ;).

Laurie

Quote - I think that people that use this software invest a lot of time and money into it, sort of like they do their relationships or their children. Most use it every day. It's no wonder then that they develop a sort of affinity for it. As for most pro end software (and you pros will have to forgive me, but I've seen it time and again) is more a snobbery than a rabid devotion. Poser users, Daz users, Blender users are more or less pond scum to some of the people that were lucky enough to have the funds, the talent and the time to have one of the big boys ;) Didn't go to school for 3D? Tsk, tsk. Go crawl back under your rock ;).

Me? I don't give a rat's petutie what you use as long as it gets the job done or the amount of schooling thereof ;).

Laurie

I have to say, I don't see much snobbery going on these days, maybe BECAUSE of blender, and the great works coming out of there, the cost of the software is clearly not indicative of the quality that is produced.  Perhaps it depends on what forums you visit, but the true professionals don't display much snobbery, althought they will display devotion to whatever their studio is using at times.

I see that a lot of what can be percieved as snobbery, actually, coming from youngsters who more than likely got their copy of Maya from the pirate sites, and think they are suddenly studio professionals.  The times, when I have seen that snobbery occur, were often times when hobbyists posted their work in pro forums, fully expecting the same reactions they get from all their friends at the hobbyist sites, and then getting all jacked out of shape when they get their work blasted with criticism.

I'll tell you, the reason I deserted my profile and portfolio over at DA last year, was because of Blender fanboys, and how they were constantly trying to bash anyone who had anything to say about Blender, if it wasn't purely high praise.  This was especially true if you were a 3dsmax user.  There were a group of about 4 or 5 users over there who were unbelievably devoted to Blender, and weren't very nice to anyone posting in certain groups there, who used 3dsmax, and posted technical commentary about the creation of their work.

There's a very good article on CGCookie, in fact, which addresses the Blender fanboy issue, so it's not just my observations and experiences...

http://cgcookie.com/blender/2012/08/18/how-to-be-a-positive-member-of-the-blender-community/

Quote: "In short, the Blender community has a lot to be proud of. However, the community has one big downfall, it’s users. The majority of Blender users are friendly, responsible, and contribute to the community and the software in positive ways. There is, however, a small minority of users that do more harm to the community and Blender’s reputation than good. This group of users are generally referred to as the “Blender Fans.” They are the users that refuse to hear anything bad about Blender and will standup in blind support of it, regardless of what the issue at hand might be. As is common with these small minority groups, they also speak the loudest and often give a false impression of Blender and its community."

My first question is to what extent does Fanboyism, which I call Infatuation, contributes to a 3D app's acceptance. Does it help attract new users, does it scare them away, or it has no impact either way?

My second question is how many fanboys of, say Blender, are actually award-winning artists? How many of them made it to the cover of 3D World magazine? How many of them can justify their worship of 'The greatest 3D app ever' with their mind-blowing artistic creations? All of them, only a few of them, or none of them?

The title of the thread and the first post are comparative.  Exaggerated bonds?  Exaggerated compared to what?  The first post gives the example of fordists.  Car companies have had joint ventures in which every other car coming off the assembly line was labeled the other car company, yet customers often treat the cars differently.  I agree with Fenric.  Computer software companies and their customers are rife with this effect.  In my own field, I've seen statisticians have similar attitudes and debates about SAS vs various other packages.   

as that above point implies, I agree that there can be exaggerated emotional bonds between a cg artist and a software package.  But emotional bonds are not always positive.  There is a thin line between love and hate, as the saying goes.  So, as this thread demonstrates, there can be an exaggerated negative emotional bond between a cg artist and Daz/Carrara.  Also, there can be an exaggerated positive bond.