I see more definition in the comparisons, but what am I missing?  Seems to me that DAZ is reversing a lot of their earlier hype about how Genesis' was low poly or something. So what did they do differently? And is it because they went to seperate meshes for the males and females? I mean, I can see where you can give more definition to a model  if it's supposed to be one gender or another, but not both.

As I noted elsewhere, the Genesis 2 male and female are indeed the same mesh.  Here's the Genesis 2 female with the Gen 2 Male brought in as a Morph target.  I was too lazy to fix the UVs for now...

Apples and oranges. :-) The G2 mesh is a few thousand polys denser than the G1 mesh, so it can be more detailed. (But not as detailed as the 3rd and 4th gen high res meshes are) The "gender split" between G2F and G2M allows more exact weightmapping and JCMs, and makes cloth creation easier. The "HD" morphs are a new technology that allows to actually morph the subdivided G2 mesh, so it can be as detailed as your computer allows. (And actually much more detailed than the 3rd or 4th gen meshes) So, G2 is more detailed than G1, but less detailed than V3, M3, V4. M4 etc. But G2 + HD morphs is much more detailed than V3, V4, M3, M4. etc.

The point is, G2 is only high poly when you actually need it and doesn't need displacement maps to be as detailed as you wish. But of course it all depends whether DAZ decides to keep the HD technology under wraps, so that only a few select "elite" vendors are allowed to create HD morphs, while the rest of us have to buy whatever they decide to make. Or if they release a plugin so everyone can create his own HD morphs.

If it's a selling point, why would you only allow a few vendors to create the HD morphs?

Quote - The "gender split" between G2F and G2M allows more exact weightmapping and JCMs, and makes cloth creation easier. 

As an example I did 6 body morphs for G1 and G2. The G1 version required (in order to look good when the thigh bends) 36 JCMs for all of them in the thigh area and reduce the "Exploding butt" syndrome.

The G2 required 4... and that was just because i just wanted the lower glute to look a little better in the bend of two body shapes.

And all this works in Poser with DSON? Admittedly, I haven't been keeping up ;)

Laurie

Quote - And all this works in Poser with DSON? Admittedly, I haven't been keeping up ;)

Laurie

Yes. You have to manually turn up the subdivisions before rendering.

Alrighty. Thx :)

Laurie

Does the new DSON 1.1.1.33 work well in Poser ?

So DAZ HD works like zBrush SubD's ?

I just have base V5,M5.

If V6,M6 is the same mesh topology .then how is there Male & Female version any diffrent then V5,M5 same topology pro pack boy n girl parts ?

The more you morph a figure, the more the rigging will degrade. So the closer you stay to the default shape, the better the figure will still bend. Genesis is androgynous, so it has to morph quite a bit to become either V5 or M5. G2F is female, so it only has to morph a little to become V6. Same with G2M and M6. Hence M6 and V6 bend better, because their rigging degrades less.

Do I have to buy V6 and M6 for the HD morphs to work? Cheers

Quote - Do I have to buy V6 and M6 for the HD morphs to work? Cheers

For the V6/M6 addon, yes. Creature Creator morphs for G2F, no. Long time dead G2M by Luthbel, no.

HD support will vary by product. 

Does anyone  know what the HD technology is? are they hi res scans? That would be nice. Hi res body sculpts may not be so interesting to me. Bumpmaps and how you make them seems pretty important in HD as well... 

Quote - The more you morph a figure, the more the rigging will degrade. So the closer you stay to the default shape, the better the figure will still bend. Genesis is androgynous, so it has to morph quite a bit to become either V5 or M5. G2F is female, so it only has to morph a little to become V6. Same with G2M and M6. Hence M6 and V6 bend better, because their rigging degrades less.

Then how is it that Genesis can morph in to creatures without the rigging degrading? Or does it?

"Then how is it that Genesis can morph in to creatures without the rigging degrading? Or does it?" Yes, it does. But the subdivision helps smoothing out the joints. Also, the animated joint centers help a lot to keep the rigging intact, and for really difficult morphs you can inject additional JCMs to compensate for any problems. And even "degraded" somewhat, the rigging is still better than M4/V4, or Dawn, or Rex and Roxy. The ideal case is of course a standalone figure that doesn't morph at all. That's what I do with my custom figures. One shape only each and the rigging is custom made for that exact shape. But that wouldn't work for the majority of Poser users of course. People want dial spinning versality that is easy to cloth. And here Genesis-1 is still better than the rest, and Genesis-2 even a bit better than Genesis-1. Rigging a Poser figure is always a compromise. You can either have 100% perfect rigging or easy to use versatility. But IMO Genesis-2 is the best overal "compromise" I've seen so far, that's why I would like to see it fully integrated into Poser, one way or the other.

Quote - > Quote - The more you morph a figure, the more the rigging will degrade. So the closer you stay to the default shape, the better the figure will still bend. Genesis is androgynous, so it has to morph quite a bit to become either V5 or M5. G2F is female, so it only has to morph a little to become V6. Same with G2M and M6. Hence M6 and V6 bend better, because their rigging degrades less.

Then how is it that Genesis can morph in to creatures without the rigging degrading? Or does it?

That's where the JCMs come in for the bending. You would have to make correctives for the various bends for the more extreme shapes.

Quote - Does anyone  know what the HD technology is? are they hi res scans? That would be nice. Hi res body sculpts may not be so interesting to me. Bumpmaps and how you make them seems pretty important in HD as well... 

Yes and no. If I up the mesh to about a million polys I could use an alpha brush in zbrush to paint the skin texture that the bump map would have done. I can put in a mole that was visible on the texture but the bump map only slightly emulated. Skin folds on the knuckles could be done as well.

Also since this this done directly on the mesh, it would be independent of UVs and have the same detail whether I use a texture for M4, V4, M5, V5, V6, M6, etc... where a bump map would be depending on the UV unless you manually convert it to another.

Yes and no.

Yeah, just catching up at Daz forums. I've been doing this for quite a while but nice to see it done properly with G2 and 3delight which appears to handle the mega quads well.

Displacement may still be a better option for now inside of Poser (I'm speculating). If I were a Daz merchant, I'd be all over this as things like "celebrity morphs" will finally succeed. Especially with older portraits. Neck waddles,,, wrinkles, thin skin folds where dislacement fails.

Scan tech can wait I guess.

Does Genesis works as well as V4 in Poser with the new DSON 1.1.1.33 ?

So DAZ HD is same as MudBox & zBrush Vector Maps ?

Thanks, Joe Public and Male_Media. Looks like I'll be taking another stab at DSON.

Attached Link: http://www.twinkind.com/en/landing

Quote - "Scan tech can wait I guess." Speaking of 3D scanning: http://www.twinkind.com/en/landing Seems to me 3D scanning a human being gets more and more affordable.This company uses the scans to create photorealistic 3D figurines, but they can also give you .obj or .fbx data which could then be used to create a Poser figure.

3d.sk is doing full body scans now too, with royalty free licensing. Only problem is that so far the models available aren't that great. I'm sure with a bit more time they will improve tho.

ten24.info is about the best source of human scans available that I've come across so far. A commercial license for one of their models is around 100 euro. Of course it would have to be cleaned up and retopologized into an animatable mesh. The mesh would also have to be split and mirrored in order to be symmetrical so that it can be rigged without a whole lot of headache. 

But cleanup is necessary for any scan cause there's a lot of artifacting that happens no matter how precise the scanner that's being used is.

There are other sources of 3D scans, those are the two I know of off hand. 

Scanners are actually relatively affordable now, especially for a company whose purpose is animatable human models. 

And if you're adventurous there are various ways of building your own 3D scanner, with varying quality of results.

There's also XBox Kinect which is being used for body scanners on the home user level that actually produces pretty decent results depending on the software you're using to convert the data.

And then you have software that can convert a series of photos into 3D models using alphas, no need for a scanner at all. I've seen this done in Mudbox, but I'm not sure if Mudbox itself converts the images or if its a feature of another Autodesk app. Haven't looked into the details of it yet. 

~Shane

Thanks for the links, Shane. £25.00 are quite cheap. Even if one doesn't want to do the retopo work, one could simply bodybag an existing Poser mesh over one of their scans and instantly have an 100% accurate sculpt and body proportions.

If you are going to make a figure from scratch and hand sculpt all the detail,, you may want to consider scanning tech as this will steal the show when it hits. Imagine a pretty smiling pic on a Rendo marketplace thumb and a full body scan on sale inside for just 24.95$... just click it over your G2. Be sure to turn IK off... LOL  remember AnnMarie Goddard? That turkey sold a lot of product.

Pcs can handle this stuff now...

cough cough daz dynamic clothes :P

Quote - If it's a selling point, why would you only allow a few vendors to create the HD morphs?

Quote - cough cough daz dynamic clothes :P

 

Quote - If it's a selling point, why would you only allow a few vendors to create the HD morphs?

Bad example. PA's can't even get that tool... and the reasoning is nowhere close.

Quote -Bad example. PA's can't even get that tool... and the reasoning is nowhere close.[/quote]

 

So are you saying there's no way to make your own dynamic clothing in DS?

 

~Shane

Quote - > Quote -Bad example. PA's can't even get that tool... and the reasoning is nowhere close.[/quote]

 

So are you saying there's no way to make your own dynamic clothing in DS?

 

~Shane

I'm saying the reasoning is not even close. Anyone can get the HD tool if they plan on selling the product at DAZ.

Sounds as if you're contradicting yourself.  PAs can't get the tool, but Anyone can get the tool if they sell it at DAZ. That's not making sense.

"Anyone can get the HD tool if they plan on selling the product at DAZ." Well, if thats the actual plan, good luck with that. Especially now that the "Displacement maps are just as good as real geometry" excuse has been thoroughly busted. If "keeping it exclusive" didn't work with dynamic clothing or selling Studio's rigging tools, there's no reason it shouldn't work with HD tech, right ? Right ! Lol. DAZ marketing: The only thing you need to be capeable of is to hold a gun, aim at your own feet and pull the trigger. And then repeat until you run out of ammo or toes, whatever happens first.

Ok, I think I'm officially confused over dynamic clothing and the hd tech in DS. I haven't seen anything their dynamic clothing can do that Poser's dynamics can't. Spent a couple hours hunting demo vids on youtube for it too and pretty much all the settings they use are the same as Poser's settings, the menus just look a bit different. But I couldn't figure out where they were getting the clothing model from.

Are they trying to promote an elitist mentality among an already divided user/vendor base?

Regardless, I've yet to see anything that the HD morphs do that impresses me. Their promo renders of M6 and V6 HD are alright, until you look at certain areas, like navels, that just look even more fake next to the high res details. Did they forget about those areas? 

I can do the same thing with ZB and displacement, and the navels look as real as everything else. 

But asside from all that, what good are HD morphs next to a giant plastic big rig truck? This causes a huge gap in style consistency with other models from the same source. 

~Shane

"But asside from all that, what good are HD morphs next to a giant plastic big rig truck? This causes a huge gap in style consistency with other models from the same source." Welcome to my world, Shane ! That's why I make my own props or "borrow" them from games, and that's why I can't even mix DAZ figures with "off-brand" figures in the same render. The problem is, 99% of the customers don't care (Or just don't know better), so 99% of the merchants don't bother. No wonder the real gems can usually be found only in freestuff or on ShareCG, because they were done by "nerds" who are still passionate and don't care about return of investment. Realism is hard work because it is based on relentless accuracy, and as long it doesn't pay off more than quick eyeballing does, people will just cut corners and do things the easy way.

Eh, I'm not so concerned about realism as I am good detail. If I want or need that much realism I have a pretty decent camera I can go take photos with.

Realism has its place but it gets boring pretty quick. I prefer stylized figures that are done well. For me a character's shape should tell something about that character, beyond whether he's a lazy slob or a gym rat, but an actual part of his story. There's a million ways to do that. It can still have HD detail and that character can still look and feel real if done properly.

But more importantly, the environment needs to look and feel like a place that character lives in, whether the goal is 100% realism or a page from a comic book. Consistency is the key. So when you add all that HD to the figure, the HD has to also be in the clothing and the rest of the scene, or it's going to start looking like those bad movies from the 80s where they did animated toons in live action. Notice no one does that anymore.  

~Shane

As for DAZ clothing, only Optitex can actually create new cloth. All DAZ will sell you is a plug-in to actually "use" them. Optitex promised a creator plug-in, but never followed through. Also Optitex clothing files are HUGE compared to Poser's dynamic clothing, which basically is just a welded object. And they look pretty crappy with no real depth. But of course both systems pale in comparison to Marvelous Designer. Again a huge problem with style consistency, as the majority of Poser/Studio clothing looks like it was cut from styrofoam instead of sewn out of actual fabric.

I can tolerate "stylized" and "idealized reality" in comic books, but not in 3D. It's the same as photoshopped magazine covers made by pretentious "art directors" that try to trick people into believing the model on the cover would actually look that way in real life. Either do outright toons, or do realism, but don't mix the two. It's different in comic books because there the "2D" adds a layer of stylization even if the item is depicted in a "photorealistic" manner with accurate details, proportions and dimensions. Love the old "Belgian school" where characters are decidedly "toonish" but the background is very realistic. But it is too easy to lie in 3D. People are already manipulated and lied to by advertising. I don't want Poser or 3D in general to add to that by promoting just another instance of an "unobtainable reality". That doesn't mean I don't want (some, most) of my figures to be "perfect specimens", so to say. I just can't stand any attempt of manipulation.

Quote -But of course both systems pale in comparison to Marvelous Designer.

Yes, it'd be great if SM could partner with MD to put MD style clothing in Poser. But I'm thinkin it would drive Poser's price tag considerably higher. 

If it did happen I wonder how many would finally toss conformers for it. 

Still, dynamics in Poser can be made to look good if the artist wants it to. It's not that difficult.

~Shane

Quote - > Quote -But of course both systems pale in comparison to Marvelous Designer.

Yes, it'd be great if SM could partner with MD to put MD style clothing in Poser. But I'm thinkin it would drive Poser's price tag considerably higher. 

If it did happen I wonder how many would finally toss conformers for it. 

Still, dynamics in Poser can be made to look good if the artist wants it to. It's not that difficult.

~Shane

Don't Marvelous Designer clothes work in the Cloth Room?

Quote - Sounds as if you're contradicting yourself.  PAs can't get the tool, but Anyone can get the tool if they sell it at DAZ. That's not making sense.

He's refering to the Optitex dynamic tools in the first part of his post, not even DAZ can get those tools. The HD tools are DAZ own brand, so if you ask nicely enough you can get them,  but only if you sell the resulting products at DAZ.

Quote - > Quote - Sounds as if you're contradicting yourself.  PAs can't get the tool, but Anyone can get the tool if they sell it at DAZ. That's not making sense.

He's refering to the Optitex dynamic tools in the first part of his post, not even DAZ can get those tools. The HD tools are DAZ own brand, so if you ask nicely enough you can get them,  but only if you sell the resulting products at DAZ.

Thank you. Two different situations.

And I know people like to throw the whole dynamic thing around, but the reality is if dynamics actually made money, then Optitex would have been gone a long time ago and replaced by something else. Since they don't (hence why the Optitex dev tool never showed up), the plugin is around for those that want to use it, but the majority still want conforming content.. which drives EVERY store. Dynamic  items drape well, however, the items are not really detailed (comes from the texture) and not as user friendly as conforming... and Optitex items don't scale... which doesn't really make it a fit for Genesis; just specific shapes.

Quote - I can tolerate "stylized" and "idealized reality" in comic books, but not in 3D.

It's the same as photoshopped magazine covers made by pretentious "art directors" that try to trick people into believing the model on the cover would actually look that way in real life.

Either do outright toons, or do realism, but don't mix the two.
It's different in comic books because there the "2D" adds a layer of stylization even if the item is depicted in a "photorealistic" manner with accurate details, proportions and dimensions.

Love the old "Belgian school" where characters are decidedly "toonish" but the background is very realistic.

But it is too easy to lie in 3D. 
People are already manipulated and lied to by advertising. I don't want Poser or 3D in general to add to that by promoting just another instance of an "unobtainable reality".

That doesn't mean I don't want (some, most) of my figures to be "perfect specimens", so to say.
I just can't stand any attempt of manipulation.

I disagree. 3D is just another art form like painting or drawing, and most of the consumer 3D world exists in video games which are virtual reality worlds. They exist as places to escape reality for most people. 

The ability to scan a real person into a machine and be able to manipulate it is great for scientific or medical purposes and other means - replacing actors in a film for certain scenarios that might be either too dangerous, too expensive, or just impossible for real people to pull off, etc, - but that will never replace the artistic side of 3D which has always been its driving force. If it was going to, then it already would have in areas where it counts the most, which are video games and film. But those industries are still hiring artists to build their human models even though 3D scanning has been available for some time now, and is definitely affordable even on the low end of the budgeting scale. Those studios that use it for their projects still use artists to manipulate the scanned models into something that suits the style their project is aiming for - that thin line between realism and stylization that drives sales. But the great thing is technology has made it so that we can have the best of both worlds to suite all the different tastes and artists can blend and bend them to their liking. 

Quote -Don't Marvelous Designer clothes work in the Cloth Room?

yes but MD style clothing would remove the need for the cloth room cause the clothing drapes in real time. No waiting for dynamics to calculate, just load the clothes, click Drape, and they behave like actual fabric while you adjust the clothing or pose the figure. It is pretty damned spiffy. Of course it would require a complete redesign to implement that level of dynamics. 

Quote -He's refering to the Optitex dynamic tools in the first part of his post, not even DAZ can get those tools.

That's the part that's confusing me. There are dynamic clothes for sale at DAZ so how are those vendors making those clothes if no one can get the tools?

~Shane

As far as I can tell, all of the dynamics are a partnership between the PA who designs the clothing and Martin (formerly) from OptiTex who has a copy of the $10,000 design tool. I don't know that it's others can't get the OptiTex to DS converter, it's that the cost of the design system is prohibitive for those not already in the industry.

I know that this will throw a stick in the spokes but Poser can do live dynamic clothes, just as well as many other programs can.

It takes some work, and you will have to make a collision rig for the character entirely out of convex hulls. You can do it with a conforming rig, or just parent the hulls to the character. Doing it with a rig makes it easier to save it, and easier to use it on other character of the same skeletal setup.

It is no different than doing it for many other programs.

These rigs have to be planned out accordingly as well. Since any morph the character can do may require a new collision rig or different hulls.

Lots of programs use convex hulls for collision with an engine like Bullet. Some can use concave ones as well.

MD (which I have never used) probably uses a similar setup, or uses the characters obj as a complex hull. Complex hulls simulations work fine by themselves, but if you have to do other sims at the same time you are going to need a very powerful workstation to calculate all of it at once.

Complex hull creation simulations require some rather interesting code if you want them to be on the fly. There is no one set way to create these.

Convex hull setups are a different story, and there are some extrememly well thought out algorythms for doing these. Here is one example that is about 3000 lines of code. https://code.google.com/p/hacd/ (Knowledge of C++ required to make any use of it.)

Poser can create hulls as well, but they are not always the best choice depending on how the character is grouped.

One thing I would like to add to the discussion....The HD technology is not part of the genesis2 figures, it is part of DS, and as such any figure (made in a way that it can actually sub-divide nicely) can have HD morphs made for it.

I made a couple HD sets for g2m, and am now making one for Genesis1.

(here is a g2m character I made http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/33595/  )

I am looking forward to trying to use it on various daz creatures as well.......imagine a dragon with HD morphs?....the idea has me drooling ;)

But I have to say....making HD morphs really slows down production time. You can go back and keep adding more and more details...it is hard to know when to stop. But hopefully the coolness of the HD will make them worthwhile.

Rawn

I believe that Blender does a nice job with dynamic cloth and has it's own ability to drape in real time. Damned if I can figure out how to make it collide yet though. It just drops out of sight. I'll figure it out though. Still, once I do I think I'll be able to take my dynamic cloth modeling up a level.

After reading the thread (because the subject really interests me) I remain a question.

What would be the advantage of HD morph, if it's more difficult to create, slower rendering and is not available to everyone over the displace / bump / normal maps

ps. really nice char Rawnrr  remember me to "ARMY OF DARKNESS"

Quote - After reading the thread (because the subject really interests me) I remain a question.

What would be the advantage of HD morph, if it's more difficult to create, slower rendering and is not available to everyone over the displace / bump / normal maps

ps. really nice char Rawnrr  remember me to "ARMY OF DARKNESS"

"ARMY OF DARKNESS"   one of my all time favorite movies ;)

But as to why HD morphs?

With HD morphs you can make much more detailed and extreme characters. Since it is a morph and not displacment, you can adjust the joints to help it bend and move better.

With displacment maps you have to worry about displacments poking through clothes, with HD morphs the clothes will follow along naturally because it is actual mesh and not a render trick.

But for me...it really is all about the detail. You can do so much more than you ever could before. It opens up whole new possibilities of what I can create that could never be done before.

I am really excited by this technology.

Rawn

This was a character set I started some time ago for genesis...but dropped the project because it was boring....now with HD it really lets me bring it to places i could not before  (hoped the picture would be at the bottom of the post LOL)

This is all nice and well, but it sadly relegates Genesis-2 back to second tier "background filler" use for me, as I neither plan to sell stuff over at DAZ, (or anywhere else, for that matter), nor do I want to have my artwork influenced by someone else's personal "style".

I can do my own sculpting, thankyouverymuch.

Not that the existing HD sculpts aren't very nice, but I need the HD tech for "normal, average people", not fantasy monsters or idealized humans.

And as long as noone bothers to spend the same time and energy on sculpting ordinary people than they do for fantasy and cheesecake/beefcake stuff, I have to do my own morphs.

Which, at least for LOW RES figures like Genesis 1 and 2, is pretty much impossible to do properly without the HD tech.

I SO WISH I could JUST BUY realistic looking women, men and children instead of having to spend all that time and energy making them myself, but there is nothing out there unspoiled by the "Reality can't be pretty" zeitgeist.

(Closely related to the "It's only relevant if it's gritty" meme)

:-(

I am sure people will use the HD tech for normal people too.....It's just me...I like my creatures...it's my thing ;)

Rawnrr : Wicked Mesh.

Not for sell ,just for my personal use.I have zBrush & D/S .

Do I need any thing else to make my own personal use HD'S ?