Some professional artists still laugh derisively at users of Smith Micro's Poser software (include users of DAZ Studio for the sake of this discussion). 

Main reason is that one doesn't show rendered art in one's portfolio, that contains canned content from other creators.  Sure, you can model and rig and texture your own stuff for use inside Poser. 

Many users don't, for various reasons: wish to focus on the final artwork, do not know how to model in 3D, deadline looming, etc. 

But wait. 

Let's peek at the world of music and sounds.  Sure, you can synthesize digital sounds or record analogue sounds, then assemble them in your multitracker and voila, music - much of which tends to be of the dub electronica ilk. Some of these tracks sound awful, others are huge lounge party hits. 

And there are many compilations of sounds for professional DJs and musicians to buy and use in their songs or remixes.  Just like Poser users who buy 3rd-party content for their art. 

Wake up, digital artist snobs.  Make the comparison and connection.  Re-imagine Poser users as digital art DJs. 

Of course, talent and skill levels vary, which account for the range of quality in Poser rendered art.  But show more lurve, people, show more lurve.

well, the professional artists I came in touch with where quite helpful, unbiased and polite.

people who laugh or mock about other's work or tools I wouldn't call "professional", they are just boastful.

To me, Poser is more like photography where as top of the line 3d programs are like painting.

Poser you start by collecting your models, doing the makeup, posing etc to set up the scene, then you "take the picture" by rendering.

In high end programs you start with a blank canvas and create your picture by drawing lines and shapes, just like a painter.

Either way you still end up with a digital image. It's up to you to make it good in any software.

I do love the way some of the snobs try to claim that Poser is no good because you can't model in it (like only modelers are artists) but then you look at places like Turbosquid that sell content for those modeling programs for thousands of dollars. If there wasn't a market, they wouldn't be able to do it. Tells me they use premade content too and are dumb enough to pay top dollar for it.

Ignore the naysayers. Through out history there have been those who say different art forms aren't art. Painters have said photographers aren't artists. Those who work in clay or stone say those who create sculptures with found objects aren't artists. I"m sure there are those who paint or sketch who would say those who use Maya or 3Ds Max aren't artists.

Bottom line is who do you say you are? If you say you're an artist, you are.

it just depends on what you want to be a pro artist in, and what you want to show about it.

Poser is not very helpful for your modelling skills, and for industrial animating / rigging skills it's sort of questionable. For texturing, lighting and rendering, Poser is non-standard so it won't launch you into a 3D job. It's hardly used in art-schools.

But for showing your scene-creation, posing, story-telling, illustration, post production and mastering texturing / lighting / rendering - fundamentals, Poser is as good as anything. You only need to be as good as...

...my favorites on Poser: tiff666, Paul Francis, lundqvist, RGUS

and I guess there are more.

Infinity10,

You are going to get about as far changing these attitudes as you will get debating the relative merits of DazStudio vs Poser Pro. The minds are already made up on both sides, so don't bother with the facts.

For the record, I agree with you. But for the record, I don't think it is going to change... not that it matters.

It's all about your goals.

If you want to be a CG artist, go buy the expensive tools, enroll at Full Sail, and stop using other people's content.

If you just want to have fun, stay with DS/Poser and have fun. (And there IS money to be made doing this, as well!)

My point is, don't let the snobs bother you. Do what you want to do and be happy with it!!!!!!

I only respect musicians who build their own instruments.

Rance01's comment happily concludes the thread for now !

Thanks, Everyone, for your comments.  Much appreciated.

I think Poser is like graphic design (my day job). We combine words written by someone else and photos taken by someone else. Then we set the type in a font designed by someone else and may use a color palette taken from a book of color palettes. Add in a company logo designed by someone else and some icons, doodahs and squigglies downloaded from some website and voilá.

We seldom get flak about that, go figure.

By the way, those 3d geniouses might do well not to insult their potential customers. There are a lot of people making a lot of money selling content to people who can not or will not model themselves.

One question though: If I were to learn to model using Hexagon, Blender or Carrara would the snobs still look down on me?

Quote - My point is, don't let the snobs bother you. Do what you want to do and be happy with it!!!!!!

• Quoted for truth. 

If I let every negative comment or snobbish reaction affect me, I'd find the darkest corner, curl up into a ball and cry every day for a year....and that's just the negative stuff from this community. If I'd let comments from the 3D realm at large get to me, I'd have jumped from a building by now.

Poser fills a need and believe it or not, is used professionally in the field - be it straight up or as animatic reference, so...whatever. lol. Keep on keepin' on.

I've noticed that some alleged 'cg pros' seem to assume that hobbyists should have the same skill sets and tools that they do, which is really very odd.  I've never seen electricains or plumbers expect others to have their skill sets and tools.  If a guy unplugs his own stopped up sink it doesn't mean he wants to do it full time.  And, frankly, if I had to make a choice of being a plumber or 'cg pro' full time, I would choose plumber.  Having to do cg stuff ten hours a day sounds like water torture to me.

Quote - If I let every negative comment or snobbish reaction affect me, I'd find the darkest corner, curl up into a ball and cry every day for a year....and that's just the negative stuff from this community.

It's far easier to pick someone else's work apart than to do quality work yourself. Go review the majority of the threads that accompanied the launches of the recent figures from various sources in the past couple of years. Pretty vicious stuff, and most of it to no good point. Just the public berating of someone else's efforts.

If you post something and ask for honest criticism, that is what you should get... an honest evaluation of what you have done. First, "How well did you do what you set out to do," and second, "why was it worth doing in the first place." The only time I will EVER offer criticism is when it is directly requested. To do so otherwise is me setting myself up above other Poser artists, and I don't feel like I want to even go there.

If you don't ask for criticism, then only those with axes to grind are going to criticise you. Makes me wonder why those who are critical of our hobby bother to worry about us.

But then, I guess that's why I have a job here.

My $.02

Quote - I only respect musicians who build their own instruments.

Not quite the same.  Even the snobbiest 3D modellers don't create their own software.

I honestly have seen a decrease in anti-Poser snobbery in recent years.  It's nowhere near what it used to be, in large part thanks to improvements to the software, and also the quality of art that is put out there from it.  Also, I see more modellers actually providing models to the Poser community than ever before.  The snobbery seems far less than say 5 years ago.

Quote - Some professional artists still laugh derisively at users of Smith Micro's Poser software (include users of DAZ Studio for the sake of this discussion).

I think the main reason is simply that most poser work is mediocre. I think if there was a huge body of excellent work done in poser it would start to speak for itself, the perception would change, but unfortunately very few poser users produce really good renders.

Using pre-made content isn't really the issue, lots of 'pro' users use pre-made ready-to-render stuff. Businesses like Xfrog, Evermotion, Dosch etc wouldn't exist otherwise. Software like modo has a library system a lot like poser's runtime to allow users to exchange pre-made content.

The point is that using pre-made content should take your work to a higher level - if you save a lot of time and effort by not making from scratch every last thing in the scene, you should have a lot more time to focus on lighting, composition, rendering and postwork.

Unfortunately, the majority of poser users are downloading premade everything,  figures, poses, expressions, morphs, background rooms/scenes, furniture, props, material sets, and even light sets, and still producing a lot of dreary, mediocre work, so I would say the derision is perhaps justified.

Quote - I think the main reason is simply that most poser work is mediocre. I think if there was a huge body of excellent work done in poser it would start to speak for itself, the perception would change, but unfortunately very few poser users produce really good renders.

Using pre-made content isn't really the issue, lots of 'pro' users use pre-made ready-to-render stuff. Businesses like Xfrog, Evermotion, Dosch etc wouldn't exist otherwise. Software like modo has a library system a lot like poser's runtime to allow users to exchange pre-made content.

Yep.  This hits it on the head.  I've even heard as much come from the communities at CGTalk and others as well.  It's not so much the use of prefab content (they do it themselves too), but the fact the work was done haphazardly, and without proper lighting and even posing.  I've heard so many times, if the one thing you are doing from scratch is posing figures, then that posing should be absolutely perfect.  Often it's not, and that's where the issue comes in against Poser.  At least that's what it used to be in the past.  Now that the software has improved in many aspects such as rendering, the output is much more professional looking overall.  Still, the most important factor to people critiquing Poser work, is in fact the posing.  Are the figures posed natually, and is the attention to detail there.  If the work looks like it was done in 5 minutes, it's going to get bashed.  Also, if the work was 90% painted over, then it no longer qualifies as 3D work.  Those are things they seem to pick on Poser's community for, and some of it is justified.

I think Poser renders will always have a large proportion of renders that are mediocre, the software is,  after all, aimed at the hobby portion of the 3D field.  Many users will use it to illistrate a book, if so they will often use the render to support the story so it may not be a masterpiece everytime. To them the story is the most important part. There are also those that are just learning and despite its limitations Poser is a hard program to learn.  I would not regard my renders to be of professional quality today but they are a vast improvement on what I was producing five years ago. 

They only person who can decide if a render is good enough quality is the creator, as they are the only people who knew what the intent was from the start.  Not that constructive help is not of value, I have had a few comments made on the renders I have uploaded that have been valid and helped me improve a render, but then they were comments from people with no axe to grind.

Poser is like life, if you try and arrange it to please others you will fail.  Arrange it to please youself and you have a much bigger chance of success.

Poser's super power is the collaboration of the community of artists that use it. The ability to have thousands pooling their content efforts make possible what one individual or small team could not ever possibly do on their own. Also all that which is done with Poser takes nothing away from advanced users of Studio Max, Maya, Modo, Cinema 4D, etc. It incorporates, enables them and gives an added life for their content! Let the ignorant smoulder and bluster. If they were smart they'd realize there's a place here to make a little extra dosh from the stuff they create that normally just ends up sitting on their hard drives.

Quote - I think Poser renders will always have a large proportion of renders that are mediocre, the software is,  after all, aimed at the hobby portion of the 3D field.  Many users will use it to illistrate a book, if so they will often use the render to support the story so it may not be a masterpiece everytime. To them the story is the most important part.

I understand this, but I don't necessarily agree with it.  What if Toy Story was put out with bad poser 3 lighting, and horrible, clunky animation?  Would it have been nearly as successful?  The visuals and the story play an equal role in any successful film, graphic novel, or illustrated story.  Otherwise, why do any illustration at all?  If the artwork is going to be mediocre, then it brings down what might be a stellar story.  I just don't get why someone wouldn't take the time to make the art as good as the story.  If it's a comic book, for example, more people would be interested in reading it, and following the story, if the panels were rendered and stunning, rather than just blah.  Poser has the tools nowadays to produce some very respectable renders right out of the box.  You don't necessarily need to export out to a much more expensive application now to get extraordinary results.  Even though Poser is still about 5 years behind the rest of the CG world in terms of render ability, it's not impossible to get things looking good.

"I hate the terms low end and high end, they're all just tools, some are better at certain tasks than others. I see all of us artists as one big community, regardless of what software we choose to use or what sort of job we have." Pixars-Neil Blevins: April, 2013

The issue of poser work not being artistic enough, not "real" is ancient. its not going to go away either from what I can see. The best thing to do, is prove them wrong when they say its not "real".

"What if Toy Story was put out with bad poser 3 lighting, and horrible, clunky animation?  Would it have been nearly as successful?"

What??  Toy Story???  If you do cg for a living then by all mean use Toy Story as a yard stick for your own work if it makes you feel good.  But for a hobbyist that's a patently ridiculous notion.

" I just don't get why someone wouldn't take the time to make the art as good as the story."

Because they're hobbyists and not doing cg for a living.  I'd much rather do several hundred "mediocre" renders than a dozen "perfect" ones because my only intent is to have fun.

GUH I went to edit my post and cant...so...

One thing I would like to point out..is that some places do change their idea about it. Look at Epilogue. I use to have rants upon rants with them. They really didnt like poser work at all. Slowly, poser work started to get in more and more.  Its not "poser work" people have an issue with...its poser work that has issues, that they have a problem with. Bad lighting, bad posing, bad joints, flat work, and we all know the "bad" poser work. No need to pussy foot around it. At one time or another we have all done it too.

Go to DA and at any time during the day you will see it. the "bad poser soft porn" as my fiance calls it. THAT stuff is what gives "poser" a bad name.

People like RGUS,elianeck(at DA) KassidiKeys(no way you can say her work isnt art)...Their work raises the bar.  I doubt they get the "its not real art". There is no denying their work is -art- and very -real-.

Quote - "What if Toy Story was put out with bad poser 3 lighting, and horrible, clunky animation?  Would it have been nearly as successful?"

What??  Toy Story???  If you do cg for a living then by all mean use Toy Story as a yard stick for your own work if it makes you feel good.  But for a hobbyist that's a patently ridiculous notion.

" I just don't get why someone wouldn't take the time to make the art as good as the story."

Because they're hobbyists and not doing cg for a living.  I'd much rather do several hundred "mediocre" renders than a dozen "perfect" ones because my only intent is to have fun.

you can have fun and raise the bar, as they say. I too, do not understand why someone wouldnt want to improve their work, to grow, to learn new skills.

you can have fun and raise the bar, as they say. I too, do not understand why someone wouldnt want to improve their work, to grow, to learn new skills.

I think many do want to improve, I know I do, but the hobbyist has to start somewhere.  If they are writing a story and wait until the illustrations/renders are the quality of Toy Story, and the like, a large proportion of them will never complete their first book.  Many may not be looking to go professional but produce something that is for thier family and friends and upload a few renders to show what they are doing.  OK some will try to make it a polished professional publication, just as many try for photorealistic renders but Poser covers a wide field.  Mediocre renders will always be part of Poser but looking at the Poser 2012/2014 galleries shows how the bar has been lifted by better software, just don't expect the snobs to change their views any time soon.

Quote - What??  Toy Story???  If you do cg for a living then by all mean use Toy Story as a yard stick for your own work if it makes you feel good.  But for a hobbyist that's a patently ridiculous notion.

Uhm.  I don't think you got my point.  I'm not suggesting Poser users make the next Toy Story.  I just meant why not try to make the visuals as interesting and good as the story, if that's the intent of your using Poser?  Why use visuals at all, if it's not there to "enhance" the story experience?  Bad visuals would only serve to ruin a good story potentially.

You can have fun and make good CG in the process.  That's a "patently ridiculous notion" in itself, to suggest the two must be separate.

Judging by how people here jump down your gullet when you disagree with them, it's no surprise Poser gets a bad rap in the CG community.  You can push out dozens of bad images for fun, but once you post them online, expect someone to call you out on it.  Don't be surprised to get negative feedback and critique if you spend literally 5 minutes creating an image, and then turn around and call those people "snobs".  That's all I'm saying.  If you put nex to no effort into making an image, then post it up in public forums, you must expect someone is going to bash it.  It's clear that at least some of the percieved snobbery is actually brutal honesty, taken poorly by people who weren't expecting it, because their friends and family think what they do is great.

 would prefer they quit posting P4 nostril-glo renders here, but they don't read this forum, hence they'll never learn how to fix their renders. :crying:

Well let's think for a moment about this...... professional artists.

"A professional is a member of a profession. The term also describes the standards of education and training that prepare members of the profession with the particular knowledge and skills necessary to perform the role of that profession."

Ok..... clear. "A profession is a vocation founded upon specialized educational training, the purpose of which is to supply objective counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain."

By that definition, an artist cannot be a professional at all. You're an artist or you're not an artist. It doesn't matter is you do art for hobby or as your job, you're still an artist and going to an art school or selling art doesn't make you more of an artist as someone who does it for fun. Every artist uses tools and they are all inspired by something. They make art because of that they have experiences, seen, lived, heard, were touched by. They draw inspiration from many sources so in that respect every artist uses tools as a means to get their thought, message, inpiration and so on across to theur audience.

That doesn't take away that a lot of artists are snobs, especially those who when to an art school. They do 'grow up' in a bit of a snobbish enviroment. I was in an art store yesterday, picking up some supplies with my wife. the art college was around the corner. It was quite busy that day. The funny thing was though you could pick out the so called pro-artists and the students in no time. They talk a certain way, they behave a certain way..... they even walk a certain way. I had a great time there.... not only because of all the cool stuff you can get there, but also because just being there watching all the artists is very amusing.

I stood next to a few students, they were looking at the same items as I did. They were discussing what materials to use and they seriously had no clue what they were talking about, they just behaved like they all knew everything about it. In the end they picked the wrong material, but they were too stubborn to ask for help. I felt like a little kid in a toy store, so many goodies around..... they were behaving like snobs.... I know what I prefer :)

There's one advantages about being a snob, it's a lot cheaper ;) I spent way too much money on materials and trying to get to know what works best.... they just knew what to get (without realizing they were wrong) and didn't spent nearly as much as I did on all these cool materials to experiment with. And here I am thinking that art should be wrong, no way, you need to behave as a pro, heaven forbid you're going to have for at the art supply store picking up all kinds of cool stuff..... deliberately using it for what it wasn't intended for.

I guess that's the difference. I knew what all the materials I was getting are supposed to be used for, but I'm going to use it worngly on purpose. They got the wrong material by pretending they knew what it was supposed to be for. In the end we both will use it for a wrong purpose, but I'm not going to be the frustrated artist! I can already see the stress they're going to have while working on their assigment the night before it's due..... finding out they've got the wrong materials and it won't work. At any rate..... art should be about fun and being open minded, shame they don't teach them that anymore.

Quote -

you can have fun and raise the bar, as they say. I too, do not understand why someone wouldnt want to improve their work, to grow, to learn new skills.

I think many do want to improve, I know I do, but the hobbyist has to start somewhere.  If they are writing a story and wait until the illustrations/renders are the quality of Toy Story, and the like, a large proportion of them will never complete their first book.  Many may not be looking to go professional but produce something that is for thier family and friends and upload a few renders to show what they are doing.  OK some will try to make it a polished professional publication, just as many try for photorealistic renders but Poser covers a wide field.  Mediocre renders will always be part of Poser but looking at the Poser 2012/2014 galleries shows how the bar has been lifted by better software, just don't expect the snobs to change their views any time soon.

I was agreeing with you.o_0

We all started with "bad poser renders". A good portion started out as hobbiest and learned, improved and some moved to more.

I know when I started I barely could run a puter. I -never- thought I would be able to do something like a cloth symo. Never in a million years.NEVER thought I could make anything in a program like sculptris. I remember very vividly saying "I'll never be able to model"(do not get me wrong Now I have to learn to rig them to be able to move..but slowly I am getting there)

I just do not understand those that do not wish to move forward.

I am not meaning to pro...but just new skills, better skills

Some good fresh viewpoints, though this topic is fairly "dead horse".  

Yeah, slap-dash rendering without too much thought, and then posting it for the internet to view, well, that's just going to add more fuel to the fire.  But I can understand the excitement of Poser newbies actually making that first render, and then showing it to their friends and the internet public at large.  They had fun making that render.  That's a good thing.

I used the analogy of music multi-tracking and using samples for a remix.  Indeed, as some folk here have pointed out, the "pro" artists also resort to adding in 3rd-party content  Snobbery about building everything in a scene from ground up in order to have a great scene, is not a sustainable proposition.

Granted that there is a wide range in quality of Poser rendered art.  May I also add that in several art communities around the internet, there are inconsistent standards of what is and is not a good art render.  So, another component to add to the mix of what gets shown and what doesn't.

Personally, using Poser has given me a lot of enjoyment.  I did actually learn how to do simple mesh modelling and texturing, because I wanted something in my scenes which was not to be found anywhere.  It's been a great ride; I am still learning; and I still consider myself a hobbyist.

I'm not for or against any app or Artist no matter there media.

Some of the more popular Poser Artist do post work to make it look a certain way.

a few Max users would rag on a trueSpace user untill the trueSpace user posted a character they modeled in trueSpace that the Max users could not model with any app not even Max.

Some will post a Poser render at places like CGTalk.it's just a bad idea.
From the CGTalks point of view it would be the same as bringing a
pencial drawing to a Tempera ,oil painting gallery.
and setting at the same table of Da Vinci ,Angelo.
You just haven't earned the right to set at that table.

I never see highend app users come to this forum and be a pain.
Most the time it's when DAZ,Poser users go to there highend app forums.
highend app users will say something DAZ,Poser users don't like.

If you want to hang out on highend app forums.you half to earn the right to.

I was agreeing with you.o_0

We all started with "bad poser renders". A good portion started out as hobbiest and learned, improved and some moved to more.

Hi DarkElegance

Thanks for the comments.  I got the drift that we were broadly on the same lines and I guess I was responding to the thread in general and cetainly not taking issue with your response.  Added to that the fact that, while English is my first language, it does not mean I am good at using it to get my veiws across clearly.

I think the other valid point coming from this thread is that the majority of Poser users do not use these forums.  I have leant a great deal from the threads over the years (even in lurk mode) and with the knowledge I have gained I can see how many of the renders that appear in the gallery could be improved.  I suspect then that those that do not look at the forums cannot see the same flaws or find it more difficult to improve.

I hope the new Premium tutorials here at Rendo help to raise the bar as I do feel the more you understand about Poser the more fun you can have.

While I think it will be very difficult to change peoples veiws I think any help in getting Poser users to get more enjoyment from their art to be a worthwhile aim and certainly not flogging a dead horse.  It is however a sad fact that some of the flame wars and grinding of axes here on the forum are contarary to this aim.  Thankfully there are a large number who spend a great deal of time and effort in being helpful, often with questions that have been asked so many times in the past. Not only that, but there are others doing so much to improve the Poser experience, just look at the EZmat 'sticky' thread  to see an example of that. 

Quote - Some professional artists still laugh derisively at users of Smith Micro's Poser software (include users of DAZ Studio for the sake of this discussion). 

The Quality or not of a work is proportional to the talent of the artist, any software is only a tool,and if some artist still laugh derisively , honestly, ¿Is it important for someone?

Quote - If you want to be a CG artist, go buy the expensive tools, enroll at Full Sail, and stop using other people's content.

No, don't go to Full Sail. LOL. Trust me. Unless you enjoy having insane amounts of student debt that you'll likely never be able to pay off, (and could possibly lose your property over and have your pay and social security garnished for life), or you're independently wealthy and have nothing better to do with your money. An animation degree at Full Sail is about $130K before interest and other expenses. That's if they don't find ways to screw you into paying twice for some of your classes - and they will try. The median annual salary for CG artists today is 45 to 55K. Senior artists is a bit higher. That's for years where you remain continuously employed. Most studios don't keep the bulk of a team beyond the end of a project, so the turn-over rate is huge and you're pretty much always looking for another job. And even fewer studios are seriously hiring anymore, since a lot of them have started outsourcing work to India and other places for pennies on the dollar. But you're not going to hear those details from your "student advisor" which is nothing more than a salesman that's being paid to tell you whatever you need to hear to sign the paperwork. 

There's nothing Full Sail (or any other animation school for that matter), can teach you that you can't learn by yourself with enough practice and dedication and research - which the internet is packed full of. You don't need a degree in animation to get work in the industry. Most places don't even ask for one. Just a lot of patience and hard work and the ability to demonstrate that you know what you're doing. 

There's some benefits for going to school for it, (most being industry connections for the very best students) but no school will teach you skill, that has to come from yourself. 

As for snobbery, most of it is just because people enjoy being assholes. Especially younger people these days. It's almost like a contest to see who can be a bigger dick online. Some of it is because the content used in Poser is rarely made by the Poser user who rendered it, while in the higher end apps, most of that content is created by the person who rendered it, from base model to finished textures and lighting. Weeks and months if not more, can go into one still image, from one artist using whatever high-priced app they're using (which they likely pirated anyway). The rest of it is just hot air and false ego. 

As long as you put evertying you've got into it, the only thing that matters is the end result, not what software you used to get there. Software only matters when you're trying to get a job in the industry. 

~Shane

Quote - The Quality or not of a work is proportional to the talent of the artist, any software is only a tool,and if some artist still laugh derisively , honestly, ¿Is it important for someone?

I don't think it should be important.  However, some creators are more sensitive than others, and their feelings get hurt more easily.  I feel it is important that the message goes out to these people, that it's OK to keep trying.  ( I certainly am still trying after so many years !! )

just think of the art world, Collage is valid form of art, the making of a new piece from various different mediums :-)

I find it quite hillarious when I see one of "elitist" art is only painting and not digital people crawl out of the woodwork. My reply is how is placing one's own keyster (usually with more colorful language in tact) in paint, and spreading their cheeks upon a canvas considered art. A few lines here with a brush, hand print there, and voila something just as equal to a Vincent Van Gough. 9 times out of 10, it is a troll or someone ticked off because they have ego beyond their artistic capacity, which craves for attention their art isn't getting. 

Same could be said some within the 3d community as well which gripe about using high end vs free to source apps to create content. As well as vendors which get all uptight when I pick their brains as to how to do something they have done with other means than they have used. 

As for other medias, music, I am quite fond of the electronica, aggrotech, industrial, symphonic black metal ect. I am a dj, and have been since I was 16. I love it when the old skool dj's which have a beef, simular to the art vs digital, about mixing with gear excluding laptops, mp3 vs programming through programs like Magix ect. As I can say from my experience with electronica bands which I befriended over the years they are more talented than some of the bands which fart on a couple snare drums, and play only 3 or 4 power chords on their guitar, with vocals that would make the sanest person reach for a sledgehammer. But oddly enough they are the ones with a record deal, where as the other band with talent does their music and are barely noticed. 

I do understand though the claim where it took a person years to learn to play an instrument, or years of school to draw that perfect line. But I also understand that with new technology comes ease of learning, and ease of applying artificial to equal in quality of that which is learned meticulously in the old ways. But I feel as it is the view that by condemning the new ways as heretic to the old is a fear responce since those which are of the newer age can easily equal up to what took years to learn in the fields infant state, become many, and possibly dethrone the pioneers which have made their mark as well as fortunes based on what they started with, tend to get ansy when their fortunes become less because of flooded markets and outdated with new fangled technology their brains can't wrap around if they live to far in the past. The new becomes old, and the old hang on to their exsistence for fear of being lost in the sea of infinity. As often many people do forget where they came from...

Which through writting this responce which started off as a Oh I know what you mean here is my experience, has given myself more validation and meaning as in the recent weeks worth of work on my geneology. So OP I thank you for opening that door to the thoughts you have inspired from this dead horse, no which lays ressurected in my minds.

These are just my opinions, though, I was never here nor there but just an observer watching, laughing in the rafters...

@mahakali - thanks for your views from the DJ's perspective.  Yeah, i felt that there was the similarity between creating with music samples and creating with 3rd-party 3D content, and also the occasional negative reaction to such work.  

Quote - > Quote - Some professional artists still laugh derisively at users of Smith Micro's Poser software (include users of DAZ Studio for the sake of this discussion). 

 

The Quality or not of a work is proportional to the talent of the artist, any software is only a tool,and if some artist still laugh derisively , honestly, ¿Is it important for someone?

This post makes me wish I could "like" the post

just for the LULZ:

try to imagine you actually WERE able to do an image from the ground up - all the modelling, rigging, texturing, compositing and lighting and whatnot.

you WOULD be a little relenting on that Poser and Studio users, would you?

be honest! :biggrin:

/moderation off

Can we PLEASE put down the whips and let this poor pony pass? This issue REALLY HAS been beaten to death over and over and over and over...

/moderation on

Quote - just for the LULZ:

try to imagine you actually WERE able to do an image from the ground up - all the modelling, rigging, texturing, compositing and lighting and whatnot.

you WOULD be a little relenting on that Poser and Studio users, would you?

be honest! :biggrin:

actually...I started to work in sculptris so that I could have that experience. To make something from a blob up, to then paint it, etc...(not able to rigg yet...YET). I thought I would find some holy grail of digital art. I ...didnt. I have appreciation for the work that goes in. I have appreciation for the technical aspect of -real- modelers...BUT I didnt find it any more pleasing or satisfying then if I opened poser and used a model. It was not the holy grail that it has been portrayed as. I am -still- working on "completely done my -me-" image...and you know what? I have to force myself to keep going back to it due to it being a drag(it was exciting at first. But 'beast' the creature I made has really been a time-eater. It can be seen in one of my portfolios in DA). While in the mean time I can put out a handful of good images.

Particularly as I know "high end artists" that use premade models. Studios use premade models...so I am unsure how it is viable to "put people down" for using pre-made ANYTHING.

I use premade paints when I paint traditional...I do not stretch my own canvas...I do not make my own brushes.

When I work with jewelry, I buy premade wire...I do not make my own. I use pre-cut stones. I do not cut my own(I know how, but SERIOUSLY? why? when its easier for me to purchase them?). I do not twist my own thread...

I do not raise my own cow for leather work, I do not slaughter it, stretch and tan the hide... I purchase it all done for me to short cut all the other steps.

WHY should digital work be any different?

EVERYONE does it for something in their life. EVERYONE. Be it for art, for cooking, for DIY....we all use pre-made materials.

Quote - /moderation off

Can we PLEASE put down the whips and let this poor pony pass? This issue REALLY HAS been beaten to death over and over and over and over...

/moderation on

I think there is a piece of hoof left that hasnt had a wack :P

ehliasys   quote

just for the LULZ:

try to imagine you actually WERE able to do an image from the ground up - all the modelling, rigging, texturing, compositing and lighting and whatnot.

you WOULD be a little relenting on that Poser and Studio users, would you?

be honest! :biggrin:

I have seen some venders make some not so good for business comments.
Must have been the music they were listen to.

My parents blamed my generations bad behaver on are music.
They alt to lissen to todays music. :lol:

DarkElegance : If you realy wanted to learn all of it & rigs ,
Think ya might want to give Blender a try.
Blender has sculpting built in to it like zBrush also.

After ya get it ,ya get a lot faster.

Quote - just for the LULZ:

try to imagine you actually WERE able to do an image from the ground up - all the modelling, rigging, texturing, compositing and lighting and whatnot.

you WOULD be a little relenting on that Poser and Studio users, would you?

be honest! :biggrin:

If I could do that I would be making so much money selling content :)

Quote - DarkElegance : If you realy wanted to learn all of it & rigs ,
Think ya might want to give Blender a try.
Blender has sculpting built in to it like zBrush also.

After ya get it ,ya get a lot faster.

 

me and blender have been doing rounds lately. I am determined to get -=something=- out of it..anything...other then a cube LOL.

With scultpris "beast" came out quickly...it was painting it that took ages. It was  HUGE and I had to keep taking the count down so I could get it into paint mode or it would crash.

I want to rig him but...I am not so sure it would work.  http://digitalartofdarkelegance.daportfolio.com/gallery/851317#2 this was beast before I started to reduce him.

I DID finally get to paint him but I lost allot of detail in the face(wrinkles around the snout, scales across his face, cracks in the bone structure of the head) I did try and salvage it with displacement maps but it wasnt as crisp and nice).

I have seen wonderful stuff come out of blender and am determined to learn it =.=

I can make my own cloths now via MD...all I have to do it now get my own wee beasties on my own! then I can RULE THE WORLD....hold on ...sorry wrong topic.

ANYWAY.

"beastie" is part of a scene I have worked on. One demon queen complete with robes and staff+horns. A throne with faces on it...the dias(really that took no skill at all stacking primitives and tweeking them out) I am just getting other bits an bobs done for me to be happy with it.

It is NOT the tool.

It is the result that matters.

Inkt on paper - Oil on canvas.

MAC - Windows

Poser - DS

Photoshop - Gimp

Blender - Zbrush

Who cares? ? ? ? ?

Only the frustrated care

.

Sculpting is not modeling.

Quote - Sculpting is not modeling.

Using sculptris/zbrush is modeling.

Quote - Using sculptris/zbrush is modeling.

Not traditionally.  It's sculpting.  Modelling is controlling edge flow, and polygon placement.  Zbrush allows for this in it's remeshing options, but Sculptris is pure sculpting.  The result would need to be retopologized in a polygon modelling app to be used in animation.

Quote - > Quote - I'm not suggesting Poser users make the next Toy Story.  I just meant why not try to make the visuals as interesting and good as the story, if that's the intent of your using Poser?

Because there's a tradeoff in quality vs quantity that has to be considered.

It's one thing if you can devote a lot of time to that one image to get it juuust right. It's quite another when you have to put out mulltiple images in a restricted timeframe and simply don't have the time to focus to make each one as perfect as you possibly can.

To use examples from other media, you don't expect an SF or fantasy weekly TV series to have the same quality of special effects as a movie in the same setting: they don't have the same budget, and more importantly they can't spend a year doing the SFX for a single episode. The cheap-ass monster Supershark vs Snotopus movies on SyFy have laughable effects, but that's what the budget and time allows (not to mention the number of people working on it and the infrastructure they have).

I know artists who do Poser/DAZ work for various webcomics and such who can do absolutely beautiful work, but you wouldn't know it from the webcomic because they can't spend the time on it. If it takes two days to set up and render one image to the quality they have the skill to do (assuming it isnt' a full-time job and they're doing it in their otherwise free time), but you need to produce 15 or so images a week, something's gotta give.

It's something a lot of people doing professional 3D portfolios often miss. Sure, that's a beautiful piece of modelling and texturing and lighting and rendering that took you a month to do. Show me what you can get done in three days, because for a lot (most?) professional work, that's a more realistic type of thing you're going to face.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I'm not suggesting Poser users make the next Toy Story.  I just meant why not try to make the visuals as interesting and good as the story, if that's the intent of your using Poser?

Because there's a tradeoff in quality vs quantity that has to be considered.

It's one thing if you can devote a lot of time to that one image to get it juuust right. It's quite another when you have to put out mulltiple images in a restricted timeframe and simply don't have the time to focus to make each one as perfect as you possibly can.

To use examples from other media, you don't expect an SF or fantasy weekly TV series to have the same quality of special effects as a movie in the same setting: they don't have the same budget, and more importantly they can't spend a year doing the SFX for a single episode. The cheap-ass monster Supershark vs Snotopus movies on SyFy have laughable effects, but that's what the budget and time allows (not to mention the number of people working on it and the infrastructure they have).

I know artists who do Poser/DAZ work for various webcomics and such who can do absolutely beautiful work, but you wouldn't know it from the webcomic because they can't spend the time on it. If it takes two days to set up and render one image to the quality they have the skill to do (assuming it isnt' a full-time job and they're doing it in their otherwise free time), but you need to produce 15 or so images a week, something's gotta give.

It's something a lot of people doing professional 3D portfolios often miss. Sure, that's a beautiful piece of modelling and texturing and lighting and rendering that took you a month to do. Show me what you can get done in three days, because for a lot (most?) professional work, that's a more realistic type of thing you're going to face.

AND that is where the premade models come in.

TIME constraints.

Also I find it abit ironic, in this thread the snitch about "modeling" to "sculpting"....I do not do animations.  My work is purely for stills.

That being said, zbrush/(smaller brother) sculptris is modeling.  But even in that aspect the snobbering shows up.

And it is snobbery. When one side is looking down on the other for which ever reason(be it a pedantic need to point out edges etc) or whether someone has "made an image from the ground up"..its snobbery.

It also works against the community as it (tries) to make others feel bad about what they do. It attempts to make people go "well what is the use"...it works to some extent. Which is sad.

Ill put out there again...

"I hate the terms low end and high end, they're all just tools, some are better at certain tasks than others. I see all of us artists as one big community, regardless of what software we choose to use or what sort of job we have." Pixars-Neil Blevins: April, 2013

If a PROFESSIONAL like Neil Blevins can see it...why cant all those other people looking down their nose cant?******

---

Quote - > Quote - Because there's a tradeoff in quality vs quantity that has to be considered.

It's one thing if you can devote a lot of time to that one image to get it juuust right. It's quite another when you have to put out mulltiple images in a restricted timeframe and simply don't have the time to focus to make each one as perfect as you possibly can.

To use examples from other media, you don't expect an SF or fantasy weekly TV series to have the same quality of special effects as a movie in the same setting: they don't have the same budget, and more importantly they can't spend a year doing the SFX for a single episode. The cheap-ass monster Supershark vs Snotopus movies on SyFy have laughable effects, but that's what the budget and time allows (not to mention the number of people working on it and the infrastructure they have).

I know artists who do Poser/DAZ work for various webcomics and such who can do absolutely beautiful work, but you wouldn't know it from the webcomic because they can't spend the time on it. If it takes two days to set up and render one image to the quality they have the skill to do (assuming it isnt' a full-time job and they're doing it in their otherwise free time), but you need to produce 15 or so images a week, something's gotta give.

It's something a lot of people doing professional 3D portfolios often miss. Sure, that's a beautiful piece of modelling and texturing and lighting and rendering that took you a month to do. Show me what you can get done in three days, because for a lot (most?) professional work, that's a more realistic type of thing you're going to face.

I'll give you ALL this as a valid retort.  You make good points.  Then I ask, is nostril glow or inner-mouth glow so hard to fix?  Is it asking too much to render WITH shadows turned on, or learn how to render with AO, at the very least, to make the render look a little more polished?  These are the kinds of things I see very often when I come across a Poser comic, or illustrated story, or animation short.  If you have a great story, why not find someone to illustrate it for you, if you don't have the time to learn or care enough to create halfway decent graphics to go along with it?

I also know of several "pro" artists who can create decent looking rendered scenes in just a few hours, from scratch.  They may use stock objects, but usually they are stock they they themselves created, for that purpose.  It's a misnomer that all pro stuff created from scratch takes months to do.  No the case, except for when you're creating perfectionist pieces for your demo reel, or for CGTalk galleries.

We recently had a modelling challenge here on Rosity in the Max forum, in which we were to model one object per day, for 7 days.  The objects weren't simple for the most part.  We didn't have to uv unwrap, or any of that, but most of us got them done in just a couple hours, so just saying it's possible to do halfway decent work in short amount of time, have fun, and learn in the process.