Well all the sites except Renderosity seem to have there own mesh.
CP has Roxie and all the other Poser meshes.
Runtime has My Michelle.
DAZ has Vicky.
HiveWire3D has Dawn.
1/2 way been expecting Renderosity to release there own Characters.

Quote - Well all the sites except Renderosity seem to have there own mesh.
CP has Roxie and all the other Poser meshes.
Runtime has My Michelle.
DAZ has Vicky.
HiveWire3D has Dawn.
1/2 way been expecting Renderosity to release there own Characters.

______________________

SSSHHHHH they did. it went very bad..... Brenda, I think the name was.. huge fiasco...

my bad.. it was Renda

Quote - SSSHHHHH they did. it went very bad..... Brenda, I think the name was.. huge fiasco...

my bad.. it was Renda

lol yes. And if you do a google search for Renda and Renderosity, you can still see her. It even links back to the MP. But a search for her in the MP here directly won't produce any results. 

~Shane

To be honest, I don't remember her.

Quote - > Quote - *SSSHHHHH they did. it went very bad..... Brenda, I think the name was.. huge fiasco...*my bad.. it was Renda

lol yes. And if you do a google search for Renda and Renderosity, you can still see her. It even links back to the MP. But a search for her in the MP here directly won't produce any results. 

And Eva at RDNA, which is better off forgotten.... :rolleyes:

Hmm, never heard of Eva til just now. 

Googled some images tho, looks pretty nice from what I could see. 

So does DAZ attack any figure they view as a potential threat and try to claim copyright violations?

There seems to be a pattern here. That's at least twice now.

~Shane

actually, Daz did'nt even know on Renda until it was pointed out on the forums here, she had the same rig as V3... right down to several decimal places... wasn't till later Daz actually got involved.. the thread about it all just vanished you see.....

Hmm, never heard of Eva til just now. 

Googled some images tho, looks pretty nice from what I could see. 
So does DAZ attack any figure they view as a potential threat and try to claim copyright violations?

There seems to be a pattern here. That's at least twice now

Let's say, Renda borrowed more than just V3's rigging.

As for EVA...

Load Jessi 1 Low res. Subdivide her once. Look at the topology.

Then look at EVA's topology.

Nothing more to say.

;-p
 

Quote - Hmm, never heard of Eva til just now. 

Googled some images tho, looks pretty nice from what I could see. 

 

So does DAZ attack any figure they view as a potential threat and try to claim copyright violations?

There seems to be a pattern here. That's at least twice now.

It wasn't DAZ in the Eva case; it was SM...

If the rig was the reason for Renda's issues, that would be ironic, because the DAZ generation 2 figures included versions rigged as Posette and Dork, although they perhaps asked first...

X-Post with JP.

Attached Link: https://web.archive.org/web/19970506145700/http://www.zygote.com/catalog/catawom.htm

Posette and Dork were made by Zygote.

Digital-Art-Zone was Zygote's subdivision for Poser content. Poser licensed Posette and Dork and the animals, but DAZ still had the rights to publish content based on them.

I was aware they were by Zygote.  I didn't realize it was a licensing arrangement; I thought it was a Work for Hire, as a contribution to a collective work, in which the copyright belongs to the commissioning party...

Attached Link: https://web.archive.org/web/19961207164439/http://zygote.com/specials.htm

Posette and Dork were part of Zygote's "Perfect People" collection. They were stock figures sold to anyone needing realistic humans in their CGI app.

"Let's say, Renda borrowed more than just V3's rigging."

as someone who was talking to the person that FOUND the issue at the time, it was the rigging that was the main issue. Sorry Joe. but I do know what I'm talking about on this one.

Quote -It wasn't DAZ in the Eva case; it was SM...

Apparently it was both DAZ and SM, according to this official statement on the issue by RDNA:

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?51569-FINAL-STATEMENT-EVA

So I'm going to assume it was some part of Possette that was used, since that was when zygote split and formed DAZ, and there was some legal controversy over the whole figure issue at the time, that made the figure open-source-but-not, or at least prevented either company from claiming complete ownership, or some such mess. I don't know. Whatever. None of it should matter now anyway. There have been a ton of figures born since then. 

And the way to avoid crap like that is to #1: NOT steal any portion of a figure's mesh or anything else, and think you can get away with it, cause someone will always figure it out eventually and then you're screwed, at least reputation-wise if not legally/financially, and #2: ALWAYS keep development records of your original work, so that in the event someone does claim you took something from someone else's work, you have the proof that you didn't. 

Over the last couple years that I've been building Lucas and Laila, I have nearly 30 gigs of development files for EACH figure. Every time I save something, I make a new save, instead of overwriting the previous, so that every change I've made is documented, just in case anyone ever gets ballsy and tries to claim this belongs to that or whatever. That is, in case I ever actually release the figures for public use. 

~Shane

Quote - > Quote -It wasn't DAZ in the Eva case; it was SM...

Apparently it was both DAZ and SM, according to this official statement on the issue by RDNA:

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?51569-FINAL-STATEMENT-EVA

So I'm going to assume it was some part of Possette that was used, since that was when zygote split and formed DAZ, and there was some legal controversy over the whole figure issue at the time, that made the figure open-source-but-not, or at least prevented either company from claiming complete ownership, or some such mess. I don't know. Whatever. None of it should matter now anyway. There have been a ton of figures born since then. 

And the way to avoid crap like that is to #1: NOT steal any portion of a figure's mesh or anything else, and think you can get away with it, cause someone will always figure it out eventually and then you're screwed, at least reputation-wise if not legally/financially, and #2: ALWAYS keep development records of your original work, so that in the event someone does claim you took something from someone else's work, you have the proof that you didn't. 

Over the last couple years that I've been building Lucas and Laila, I have nearly 30 gigs of development files for EACH figure. Every time I save something, I make a new save, instead of overwriting the previous, so that every change I've made is documented, just in case anyone ever gets ballsy and tries to claim this belongs to that or whatever. That is, in case I ever actually release the figures for public use. 

 

~Shane

might want to get legal copyrights also.

a lot of the timecompress on youtubes are Artist proving it's there's also.

216 posts, Eight pages, and still an open thread.

Quote - 216 posts, Eight pages, and still an open thread.

Even more amazing the thread has gone through the 'Genesis' phase and come out the other side. Which is stunning when Genesis appears to be compulsory on any thread with more than one page and irrespective of the title of the thread.

Quote -  

Posette and Dork were part of Zygote's "Perfect People" collection. They were stock figures sold to anyone needing realistic humans in their CGI app.

I wonder who hold the copyright of Poser 4 people

is it inherited to every new poser owner or it still remains on Zygote?

According to the Poser 5 EULA (I couldn't scrounge up a copy of Poser 4's, but I presume it's similar) the copyright on licensed content included with Poser remains with whomwver they licensed it from, so it would be DAZ in the case of the P4 people.

From the link JP posted above, to buy the Posette and Dork meshes and a few clothes in 1996 was $495.  Posette Casual was $245.  These would have been unrigged.....

DAZ? Not  Zygote? This company still exists

Poser 4's manual gives credit for the P4 models to Zygote, so my guess is that the license remained with the parent company. Also if you check the list of credits in the About Poser box on 2014, Zygote is still listed.

http://web.archive.org/web/19961025022856/http://www.acuris.com/18pp.htm

Edited image to clothe the baby a bit...

Here's some information about Acuris from its Founder Eduardo F. Llach.  He doesn't mention the Perfect People, but he had sold the company in 1995 and the Trademark date for 18 Perfect People is in 1996...

http://www.llach.com/acuris.htm

Warning: this might end up being REALLY long.

I agree with what some of the others here are saying about advertising, and I will demonstrate why I say that.

About 15 or 20 years ago, CGI started to become very prevalent in movies. I've been a computer geek for over 35 years, so I already knew what 3D graphics and CGI were. But suddeny they were "buzz" words, and friends started showing me galleries full of amateur renders and animations. A lot of very high quality animated renders of star trek ships and what not.

I had always considered 3D CG to be something that I would likely not be able to do, as I do not consider myself a talented person when it comes to art. I can barely draw a stick person. Seeing the work of these amateurs though fueled my interest and I did some reading on what it would take to start learning more about this field.

Most of what I read made it painfully obvious that getting myself set up to perform renders of the quality I was seeing in these galleries was way outside of my budget, and would take a serious investment of time. This would have been roughly 15 years ago.

I would occasionally still look around at options though, which eventually (not surprisingly) led me to Poser. Poser was something I could maybe afford, and that I could use as an entry level 3D product that would allow me to explore my creative vision without being a super talented artist or spending $40k and four years getting a degree.

At the time (maybe 10 years ago?), I did not know who made Poser. Poser, the software, is what caught my attention - not the company behind it. More impotantly, it was Vicky that caught my attention. I could not tell where Poser started and Vicky ended. Everything I searched for on Poser had information on Vicky and vice versa. For the longest time I didn't even know they were separate products from separate companies. It appeared to me that Daz, Poser, and  Vicky were all one in the same.

I do not believe that I am alone in this, and it was a bit of marketing genius on the part of Daz to make it seem like Vicky and Poser go hand-in-hand. It is part of the reason why Vicky 4 has been so successful when compared to other, newer figures.

It wasn't until about two years ago that I did finally purchase Poser. I also purchased a crap ton of Vicky 4 stuff to go with it, because even up until two years ago I still wasn't really clear on the distinction between Vicky 4, Daz, and Poser/Smith Micro. Worse yet, until I started reading this thread, I did not really understand that Poser came with its own figures. There's a Roxie? There's a Rex? They were made by Smith Micro? They aren't from Daz? Wow! That's all news to me!!

It seems clear to me now that Daz has broken away from Poser. They are producing their own software and their own content for their own business model. Poser and Smith Micro should be doing somewhat the same. They don't have to make Daz an enemy, but they need to focus on their software, content for their software, and advertising that content.

It is very sad that I've been using Poser for two years and didn't even know about Roxie.

Some of you will read this and think, "Well you must be an idiot if you didn't know that Poser came with its own library of stuff". Maybe I am, but I really don't think so. I think I am in the same position that a lot of people coming into the 3D CG hobby are in: they do not know alot and want a fairly cheap, easy to understand introduction to making their own rendered scenes.

They do not spend hours and hours reading through forums on multiple different sites. They do not understand the sheer amount of information that is out there to read on image maps, bump maps, normal maps, displacement maps, and all the multitude of other topics there are to learn about. Chances are that they will never do any of that research. They want a cost effective tool that enables them to load some people, load some clothes and props, build their scene, and render it to a reasonable level.

That vast majority of the art out there that showcases Poser is built using Vicky 4, and I believe that a good number of people are still operating under the false assumption that Vicky 4 is the only (or main) model for Poser. That will never change unless Smith Micro makes a concerted effort to educate people, through marketing, about the content that comes with Poser.

If Roxie and Rex are the poster children of Poser, then their faces need to be plastered all over everything Poser related and clearly labeled. Poser, Rex, and Roxie need to be synonymous.

That is, if you want the marriage to Vicky 4 to end. I am making no statement or suggestion as to whether it should or not. I'm just telling you as one amateur hobbyist that recently entered into the market, that I had NO clue that I didn't need Vicky 4 in order to make renders in Poser.

Reallly think about that...

P.s. Yep! That got really long. Sorry. :P

mr_phoenyxx

"Some of you will read this and think, "Well you must be an idiot if you didn't know that Poser came with its own library of stuff".

I don't think you are an idiot at all but I am very glad you took the time and trouble to add such a long post.  I think it is all to easy for the regular posters on any forum to forget they are in fact a very small minority.  I have no way of proving it but your supposition that the majority of 3D artists are in the same boat you were in I believe is very near the truth.

I would like more people to have the knowledge to understand just what the 3D world has to offer and then to pick the parts that gives them the most pleasure.  It is a shame then that so many threads revert back to the same arguments over the G figure and all the half baked ideas of why it happened and who was to blame.  I have lost count of the number of threads that have been locked after the same people post with the same information they have been using for years now and it is no more valid (or useful) now than it was then.

New comers to the forum do not know of the hidden agendas of some of the posters and are ill equipped to understand what is fact and what is someone's very biased view.  The end result is the really good information on figures, content topology and so much more is lost amonst all personal battles.

What a shame, we do a dis-service to those who are either new to the hobby or to the forum, if only we could stick with facts or well validated/reasoned opinion and leave it for the reader to make up their own mind.

I think I need to first qualify my post as comming from someone who uses Poser, DS, and Carrara. I like all three programs, and they all have their particular (and sometimes peculiar) strenghts and weaknesses. Of the three, Carrara is my favorite because it has the greatest flexibility and richest tool set. So, my views are somewhat skewed because of that fact.

I own every version of Poser statring with version 2 all the way to PP2014 (except for P10). I first started using Carrara at version 2, and like poser have used every version since CS2. One of the main reasons for getting Carrara in the first place was to be able to render Poser figures in a better renderer. So for me, from the begining, Carrara and Poser have been sort of a software suite. With the addition of DS, I've been able to pick and chose the tool that works best (often this means the easiest) for what I want to do.

Given the fact that I use Carrara more than Poser because of it's ease of use (for me), better render engine, easier more intuitive lighting system, and much more powerful and flexible tool set (except for cloth), IMVHO SmithMicro needs to focus on improving the software. They need to include caustics in the renderer, and fix the issues with IOR. There needs to be some way to easily include landscapes and vegetation in Poser, and create realistic outdoor atmospheres (again - my opinion) without using Vue. I also think that SmithMicro needs to step up to the plate and create figures that are of equal quality to Genesis 2 (male and Female) if they don't plan on implementing better support of DAZ figures.

Yes, I do realize that these are some rather dramatic requests, maybe even seem totally rediculous to most people here. But just try to see things from my point of view, as a person who uses multiple applications designed to take advantage of what was once a unified "Poser/DS ecosystem". If Poser and DAZ software/content continues to drift apart, I will be forced to make a choice between the two - Poser or DAZ, because it will simply become too expensive to try to support content for two different systems. Dawn was/is a great idea for vendors to create content that will work well in both Poser and DS/Carrara, but there is an extra cost associated with getting both versions. For those of us that do use both Poser and DS, that can add up rather quickly.

If the Poser/DAZ rift gets wider, I will be forced to chose one over the other for purely economic reasons. I honestly don't want to be forced to make that choice, and it will be a sad day when I have to do so. If I had to do it today, based on my personal needs (which actually go beyond "Poser" content), I'm sorry to say that Poser would be that application that would get dropped from future upgrades. Unfortunately the combination of Poser/Vue wouldn't work for me, because only Vue Infinite can fit the requirements of some of the work I'm doing, and it's just too expensive, when I can meet these needs with Carrara and one inexpensive plugin. So, simply put, there would need to be a lot more functionality in Poser, and better figures, to keep my business if the Poser/DAZ rift continues to grow.

I'm guessing that I'm rather unique among the Poser user base. There may only be a handfull of us that use all three applications, but I thought it might be important for the SM rep who is checking this thread to hear the about challenges that we are facing, and what I would like/need to see in future versions of Poser, depending on the direction that SM takes. I realize I'm in the minority here, and PLEASE don't use my post as a reason to start more app/figure wars in this thread, but for me, it would be much better if SM decided to support Genesis technology better, or really really improved functionality and capabilities of Poser.

When I started to use Poser 5 around 2003 I did not know that there were other figures to use.  I found Poser in a store and drawn to the trapeze figures shown on the box front.  I have been using computers for years and have been interested in CG since Cyber Paint came out for the Atari ST computers.  I have also upgraded to each new version of Poser as it came out, however it has always been a physical copy since until recently my internet has been dialup or capped.  Around version 8 I clicked on the Content Tab and was taken to Content Paradise where I saw some items that said for V4.  No clue what a V4 was and it took a lot of looking to find out that it came from DAZ.

I picked up a copy of V4 since it was free and some of the items that made me look to see what a V4 was.  In my experience V4 has the same problems with poke-through and bending that all Poser figures had.  And since I mainly do animations it is nothing special and in fact in some ways harder to work with then the native Poser figures.

With the last versions of Poser a lot issues with animation have been reduced, not in how to make them but in how the figures move and bend.  But it seems it comes down to a lack of content?  We are now at point where there seems to be two choices in which direction to head.  On the one side you have a group that wants a single set of vertices that can be made into anything and have cloths made to fit that set of vertices.  On the other side you have a group that is trying to allow whatever cloths fit whatever figure.

For the first group programming wise it is somewhat simple to keep one set of polygons away from another set (cloths from figure).  This is especially true when it is the same set of vertices used over and over.  This is basically what Wardrobe Wizard does is looks at a set of polygons (vertices) calculates out where they are in relationship to the donor figure and where they need to be moved to fit the target figure.

For the second group it more a matter of going to the local mass market clothing store and picking up a shirt and pants in roughly the proper size.  As has been demonstrated by several people in the past (Vilters in particular) the basic shape of most Poser figures is the same they are just scaled differently.  Which is the way it is in real life and why we can go to the store and pick up a shirt off the rack and have it fit fairly well.

Again as Vilters has shown it is fairly easy to take an clothing items obj file and run it through the cloth room and setup room (or Fitting room) and make something that was made for one figure fit another.  This makes it so that any figure can wear something and give people the chance to make a figure that is not bound by a set of rules that need to be followed in order to ensure cloths fit.  This method makes it so the end user has to have a little bit of skill in order to make it happen.  Not really a difficult skill to learn either.

The first group wishes to make it as easy to use as possible, mostly because in the past it has been hard to get things to work.  The big issue for the first group is that in order to pose anything it has to be rigged and that has been a hard part in the past.  Also a clothing items has to have all morphs built in or it will break if the underlying figure is changed into something the cloths do not support. This is still the case as this product talks about http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/sickle-super-clip-fixer-genesis/93993/   It is stiil recommended that the cloths be made as close the the final figure as possible to minimize issues.

Now it comes down to what the vendors wish to do.  On the one hand they can try to remain a custom tailor making cloths fit a single figure and in some cases that is what is needed, especially with fantasy armor that covers maybe 3% of the skin, and that no one in real life would/could wear without being arrested.  Or they can build cloths based on standard shapes and sizes and sell them so that the users can put them on any figure they wish. 

The problem is no matter which route they take the improvements in software will make the custom tailor or even mass market redundant.  So the only hope they have is making brand new totally different fashions and not recycling items from the last generation to the new.  The users now have the tools to take a pair of jeans and t-shirt and fit it to the figure themselves.  So if all you make is t-shirts and jeans how long can that last?  The people who rely on content for a living are going to have to keep making small changes to the figures to make user have to have a reason to upgrade to the newest version of the t-shirt and jeans, or the users use the tools to make last year’s jeans fit this year’s model.

So the real question isn’t that there is lack of content it is more a matter of how is that content being packaged and how hard is it to get too?  Using Poser most of the files are easy to open and are readable by humans, exceptions being picture files.  Not sure about Studio files, but the fact you need DSON to be able to use them suggests that they are not as simple to use.  So if vendors package the files in the old format then most people will be able to use them.  If not then we need to start jumping trough hoops.