As a professional photographer and graphic artist I'm well aware of how much of a struggle it can be to stay solvent.  I latched onto a government position many years ago and have enjoyed a steady paycheck and now an indexed pension while many of my friends in the industry lamented their choice of a career in the field; and occasionally had to take other jobs to pay the rent.  It seems that making content for Poser/Daz is much the same.  This thread has been an eye opener as I've toyed with the idea of selling my clothes for a few extra bucks. After following the conversation I've decided that I'm not willing to put in the time required, I have too many other hobbies that demand my attention.  Over the years I've had the pleasure of getting to know a few content creators and this is what initially inspired me.  But between the pirate community stealing stuff (and being dammed proud of the fact) and the low return rate on the time invested, I'll keep my clothes to myself.   It's kind of a relief for me as I can now relax and just play with Poser.

Speaking of pirates, I see that KAT has just been taken down.  This was the most popular community for Poser thieves.  I remember one content artist mentioning that when launching his latest item, he had under a dozen sales over a couple of weeks with many dozens (I don't remember the numbers) of folks putting it in their wish lists.  His item then hit the sleazy Asian and Russian sites, followed by the torrent sites. Within days his sales dropped to almost nothing and the bulk of potential customers removed the item from their wish lists.  That's gotta be disheartening for an artist after investing all the time to make something your proud of.

I remember when a record was around $10.00 and a concert ticket was around $10.00.
Musicians answers to everything free internet is $100's concert tickets.

It's my understanding Aeon Soul poser path lead to working for a gaming company.

They may give your Art a way but no one not even the Gods can take away that you done that work of Art. 
So for Artist ,I think you half to follow the path no matter what and in the end even if ya never get rich at least ya die famous.

Never Surrender

Lots to respond to. 

@BadKittehCo -- "Ha ha, I thought about Steve coopers Job for a minute, but I only have about 60-70% of the qualifications they need at best...." It's funny. When I talked to a job recruiter, he was handing me a bunch of job prospects, and I'm saying, "Wait -- this one requires five years experience, this one requires knowledge of x software, etc," and he said, "Nah, they just put all that in to discourage the chumps. No one expects you to have all those qualifications." Then I read an article that claimed that on average men who apply for jobs have 50% of the stated qualifications, while on average women have more than 90%. Could be that women feel they need to overcompensate by looking better on paper; could be that, thanks to our culture's particular method of handling romantic interactions means that men get a lot more practice aiming high and getting rejected; could be something else entirely. In your case, you can't relocate (and art school is cool!). Otherwise, you might be perfect for the job. :)

@MrSparky -- I guess there are going to be different rates for 1. make whatever you want, and I'll buy all the rights, 2. make this precise thing I want (plus revisions if it doesn't meet my expectations), and I'll buy all the rights, 3. make something in this general category of things (a car of some sort), and I'll pay you an advance, plus a percent of the sales, and you keep the copyright but sell me first distribution rights (meaning that as long as I sell it, you can't, but the moment I stop selling it, you're free to sell it yourself or to someone else) -- and all sorts of other arrangements.

The things that would give a seller the advantage if there were to pay a creator up front would be that they didn't need to recoup the costs quickly, and that they weren't making models, so could spend all their time selling. The disadvantage would be that if the model just wasn't something people wanted, they'd lose money. The advantage to the creator would be that if their model didn't sell, they still got paid and that they wouldn't have to wait to get paid. The disadvantage would be that if the model turned out to be a hit, they wouldn't make as much money as otherwise. Of course, the model might not have turned out to be a hit if the seller wasn't personally invested in its success. And that's the thing about brokerages. They need a lot of products coming in in order to get and keep customers interested, but in the end, they don't care what sells, as long as something does, and if that's 10 top vendors, there's little to be gained from putting all their efforts behind anyone else. However, if you've paid up front for a model, you have a lot of incentive to sell it. Paying up front is usually how we sell physical goods., and the risk, cost, and profits are divided fairly equally among all three levels of the system (manufacturer, wholesaler, retailer). But for some reason, with intellectual products, we've latched onto a different process. At least in publishing, authors get an advance -- but they still have to pay it back if the book doesn't sell.

Seems to me like a cooperative would do better. A team, as someone already mentioned, with everyone playing to their specialty, whether that's modelling, rigging, texturing, selling, coding, or customer relations might do better. But to really do it well, it'd have to be a pretty big team. And, of course, the advantage of working entirely for oneself would no longer exist for those artists who really enjoy (and perhaps need) that kind of independence.

@Shane -- A buyer of indie content isn't going to be able to pay studio wages. But it would be nice, wouldn't it, if a creator could at least reliably make a set minimum on each of their products as long as the quality was consistent? To get paid without being completely vulnerable to the whims of the marketplace.

It's my belief that good marketing responds to the demands of the customers, and great marketing creates the demands that the company is prepared to fill. But where is the Steve Jobs of the Poser community? :D

@kljpmsd -- I guess it depends on why you want to sell content. I think (though I certainly don't know) that a lot of vendors decide to make their products available for sale, not because they expect to make a living wage from them, but because they want to release them for people to use (which is its own kind of joy) for the love of simply making them and seeing them rendered -- but at the same time, they'd like to recoup at least some of the costs. Occasionally, such folks will hit pay dirt because the quality of their work is so high and they get lucky by meeting a demand. In any case, it's not an all or nothing proposition, unless you're selling product to pay your bills. I doubt that most vendors are, or even expect to -- but I certainly don't claim to know.

@Moriador    "I guess it depends on why you want to sell content. I think (though I certainly don't know) that a lot of vendors decide to make their products available for sale, not because they expect to make a living wage from them, but because they want to release them for people to use (which is its own kind of joy) for the love of simply making them and seeing them rendered -- but at the same time, they'd like to recoup at least some of the costs."

      I certainly admire those who make art (of whatever sort) for it's own sake but admit to being a bit greedy and a lot selfish.  I like the air of exclusivity and will probably only share my clothes with a small group of like minded weirdos (don't ask). 

      It would be interesting to see sales, membership, and visit figures for the bigger sites.

@Morkonan -- I agree with much of what you say. But I don't think grammar is all that important, as long as the message is intelligible. At least, it's not important for me. But then I guess I'm used to talking to people who are not native English speakers. I also don't insist that a vendor show their ability to make good renders. Many vendors get someone else to do the promo renders. Many don't even use Poser at all. Does not make their products any less fantastic. But I agree that great renders -- in Poser -- are extremely helpful, and the more, the better. As for gratuitous boob shots -- well, I'm not sure how well they work on women, gay men, and kids.

As far as grammar, spelling and rendered promos goes, it's more a question of "Implied Quality." Implied Quality is important in a commercial environment where competition is strong. In industrial/professional environments, where quality is spelled out in the contract and in the esoteric knowledge of the users, manufacturers don't have to necessarily put fancy labels on the box. :) Their quality is in the design specs or marketing literature. But, in a commercial shelf-space situation, one needs to push that implied quality as much as possible. Two products, sitting side by side, one that has great renders and emphasizes the sort of product and quality you're looking for, while the other does not... Which one will you pick, all other things being equal?
A note on "boob shots" - Women pay attention to those just as much as men, sometimes even more. Studies actually prove this. :) (Will reference if necessary.) Past that, there are variables that differ, per person, regarding how specific sorts of content will be reacted to. But, for just about everyone, male and female, "boobs" are always an eye-catcher. That is why marketers use such tactics so often, especially with intangible products that have little or no actual physical representation. There's a reason why chewing-gum commercials have buxom babes running on the beach in bikinnis and don't show sets of teeth clacking away at barely maleable tree sap... :) My only argument is that they shouldn't be what is focused on for product promos that don't have much to do with them. Certainly, not for primary marketing promos. Incidentals and inclusions, though, are fine, so long as a basic focus on quality and communication in these sorts of images is maintained.

ok, for rigging and poser details, Nerd 3D has loads and loads of invaluable information. Most of what I learned is by sticking my head up his arse and begging!  You can see he has a lot of published info here: http://www.nerd3d.com/

Another thing I find invaluable are Dimension3D's poser tools. Poser File editor in particular. I would die without it: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/poser-file-editor-3/62322/     D3D has few other amazing tools, here at Rendo and at DAZ (for DS/Genesis content)

I'm not sure what you mean by adapting pre existing textures? For characters, if you use pre existing, make sure they are licensed as 'merchant resource', or photographs meant for texturing, like what you can get from www.3d.sk. You can't take other textured characters and tweak the images (for freebies or for store items). For your own personal use, you can of course do whatever you want.  Promo images are very important of course, spending some time learning how to make a cool catchy render is smart. Look at advertising outside poserdom, fashion, movies, games... whatever may be somewhat similar to the content you are making, That is a learning curve of it's own. Whenever you can afford, hire a promo artist. I do it about half the times, especially for the main promo. You get only a second or two for the buyer to fall in love with your product - it is only after that they most will bother to read techy details - especially until you develop a following and a name recognition. And, well, you have to make sure that the product stands up to the promos, or people will feel like they've been cheated... and poser users can be very vociferous when they don't like something.

Fancy lettering - first, don't overdo it, learn a bit about graphics design and visual hierarchy of things so you don't assault the customer with everything at once and they run off with a visual migraine. ok, ok, i'm exaggerating a bit....   lot of little designs are a combo between layer effects, and whatever fonts you can find out there on the internet, there are tons out there free or for pay (check EULA's on everything, make sure you are allowed to use it in a way you want to use it.) You dont want to get in a hot water copyright wise, not only because of the other party, but if it happens more often, the brokerage starts being nervous about taking your product. Usually when there is a copyright violation they are the first to get the notice.

Thanks for this.

I bought the file editor in November. Haven't looked at it yet. Hope it helps.

Yes I do mean use a merchant resource. This is of course to avoid copyright issues and to speed the overall process of figure creation

 quote It would be interesting to see sales, membership, and visit figures for the bigger sites.

I've wanted all those answers for years.

for the ones that say how many members .cgtalk has around 500,000 members.

daz,runtine has around 100,000 members.I expect most of the cgtalk members have daz poser also.

most don't think of daz as a vender but daz built there empire by being a vender. 

@Shane -- A buyer of indie content isn't going to be able to pay studio wages.

They most certainly do. 

Lots to respond to. 

@BadKittehCo -- "Ha ha, I thought about Steve coopers Job for a minute, but I only have about 60-70% of the qualifications they need at best...." It's funny. When I talked to a job recruiter, he was handing me a bunch of job prospects, and I'm saying, "Wait -- this one requires five years experience, this one requires knowledge of x software, etc," and he said, "Nah, they just put all that in to discourage the chumps. No one expects you to have all those qualifications." Then I read an article that claimed that on average men who apply for jobs have 50% of the stated qualifications, while on average women have more than 90%. Could be that women feel they need to overcompensate by looking better on paper; could be that, thanks to our culture's particular method of handling romantic interactions means that men get a lot more practice aiming high and getting rejected; could be something else entirely. In your case, you can't relocate (and art school is cool!). Otherwise, you might be perfect for the job. :)

your bills. I doubt that most vendors are, or even expect to -- but I certainly don't claim to know.

I'd actually be much more interested in building a new knockout figure for Poser....  but they know that already... and I don't want to make one as a small time community effort, to have another figure die a slow painful death because of no marketing behind it.   I can certainly build something that is technically and aesthetically competitive. ;)

I've seen a lot of characters since I wondered in to town .
the one constant I have always seen is DAZ supports there character at all times year after decade.
why don't I see any other Artist or Studios version 6 character ? no one else ever supports there character.
they go, here is my unsupported character, buy I'm leaving town. you 2 are on your own.
so if Ford said here's the model A ,have fun ,I'm gone. how many here would be driving a model A ?
Would you buy a new car with out any support ? 

Poser desperately needs a state of the art knock out figure,otherwise the merchants will abandon it for Genesis / Daz Studio. Anyways I'm off to look at promo design !

@Morkonan -- I agree with much of what you say. But I don't think grammar is all that important, as long as the message is intelligible. At least, it's not important for me. But then I guess I'm used to talking to people who are not native English speakers. I also don't insist that a vendor show their ability to make good renders. Many vendors get someone else to do the promo renders. Many don't even use Poser at all. Does not make their products any less fantastic. But I agree that great renders -- in Poser -- are extremely helpful, and the more, the better. As for gratuitous boob shots -- well, I'm not sure how well they work on women, gay men, and kids.

As far as grammar, spelling and rendered promos goes, it's more a question of "Implied Quality." Implied Quality is important in a commercial environment where competition is strong. In industrial/professional environments, where quality is spelled out in the contract and in the esoteric knowledge of the users, manufacturers don't have to necessarily put fancy labels on the box. :) Their quality is in the design specs or marketing literature. But, in a commercial shelf-space situation, one needs to push that implied quality as much as possible. Two products, sitting side by side, one that has great renders and emphasizes the sort of product and quality you're looking for, while the other does not... Which one will you pick, all other things being equal?
A note on "boob shots" - Women pay attention to those just as much as men, sometimes even more. Studies actually prove this. :) (Will reference if necessary.) Past that, there are variables that differ, per person, regarding how specific sorts of content will be reacted to. But, for just about everyone, male and female, "boobs" are always an eye-catcher. That is why marketers use such tactics so often, especially with intangible products that have little or no actual physical representation. There's a reason why chewing-gum commercials have buxom babes running on the beach in bikinnis and don't show sets of teeth clacking away at barely maleable tree sap... :) My only argument is that they shouldn't be what is focused on for product promos that don't have much to do with them. Certainly, not for primary marketing promos. Incidentals and inclusions, though, are fine, so long as a basic focus on quality and communication in these sorts of images is maintained.

Certainly boobs are an eye catcher. Certainly all sorts of people pay attention to them. But an enormously fat and hairy man's butt crack would also be an eyecatcher. Probably far more so in the midst of all the boobage on sites like Renderosity.

But being an eye catcher does not necessarily translate into sales. :D And in some instances, will have a negative impact on sales.

If all you needed to do to make money was get people's attention, a good number of us would just get up in the morning, drink our first cup of the day, travel to downtown, and stand on the street screaming our heads off.

--

For women, babies are a far more potent driver of sales than breasts -- unless the breasts in question are supposed to be a representation of her own, as in clothing sales, where the idea is that wearing the clothes makes one like the person in the ad. This doesn't work in car sales with a sexy chic draped over the hood. To appeal to women, she needs to be the one driving it. Some advertisers understand this basic concept. But a great many seem to think the context is irrelevant. They seem unable to get beyond "BOOBS!!!!"

In TV advertising, nothing seems to be more effective than the sound of a baby laughing. This works on both men and women.

Ah, found it. I've been looking for this link for a long time.

Anyway, BadKittehCo mentioned something about "getting a following". I think she's really on to something.

http://kk.org/thetechnium/2008/03/1000-true-fans/

To be sure, to get 1000 such fans in a milieu the size of Poserdom is quite a feat. However, if you succeed, you'll make a living.

Interesting article Moriador.

Curious, is there a particular benefit anyone participating here can site for restricting oneself to only creating Poser/DS content? 

For that matter, is there a particular benefit to only being a content creator? For someone interested in making a living from their work as a freelance artist, is it not more beneficial to take advantage of all the avenues of revenue that an artist has available to them? Focusing the majority of ones time on one or two areas of course has its advantages, but should it be exclusive? If there's a market for rendered images, or animation sequences, or 2D illustrations, if the skills are there, why not incorporate those aspects as well to increase the revenue, and along the way maybe learn new skills? I always try to think outside the box with whatever I'm pursuing. And I think mindset plays a very important part in whether you'll be successful, whatever it is you're trying to do. You basically have to convince yourself that failure is not an option.  

Ah, found it. I've been looking for this link for a long time.

Anyway, BadKittehCo mentioned something about "getting a following". I think she's really on to something.

http://kk.org/thetechnium/2008/03/1000-true-fans/

To be sure, to get 1000 such fans in a milieu the size of Poserdom is quite a feat. However, if you succeed, you'll make a living.

I always try to take a critical look at my own buying habits. There are three content creators whose stuff I will by, almost no matter what it is, because I know it will be great, and in part I want to encourage them to make more, when I buy things that I'm a little iffy about. It almost becomes a 'collect them all' game. Those three happen to be three of the most well known and successful content makers in this market. 

I spent a lot of time pondering and analyzing this, trying to figure out what made them so successful, and how to take advantage of that in my own work.  Why shoot for the best.... well, if you don't shoot for the best you've already reduced your chances of success. Even if it takes more than one lifetime to get there, still shoot for the best.
Best in aesthetics, best in marketing, best in presentation, blah blah... identify components that are needed, and see what makes them great.

Having a following means people will buy your stuff before thinking.. then it will end up on a 'top sellers' list and it may be just enough to tip the scales of the skeptics, or those still thinking about it. you start having some popularity and visibility, it starts to feed on itself, people see other people buying it, and it adds polish to that 'ooog shiny' factor people in poserdom like. Everyone is playing with it, I better get it too, i want to be one if the in crowd.... ir 'it must be special'   

Sometimes people say, the leaders are important, you know who else is super important, the first few followers, they are the ones that make other people think the leader is worth following... out there on his/her own, the leader may just end up looking like a lone fool. Followers validate them.  (We dissected that concept in one of my sociology classes too, one that analyzes group dynamics. lot of marketing has to do with group dynamics - people do have some influence on each other, we don't exist in a vacuum - even though a lot of us would like to think we are independent thinkers....  eh, only to a degree. We all live in the same society and our brains are made of same human genetic crap - so there is a degree of predictability)

Interesting article Moriador.

Curious, is there a particular benefit anyone participating here can site for restricting oneself to only creating Poser/DS content? 

For that matter, is there a particular benefit to only being a content creator? For someone interested in making a living from their work as a freelance artist, is it not more beneficial to take advantage of all the avenues of revenue that an artist has available to them? Focusing the majority of ones time on one or two areas of course has its advantages, but should it be exclusive? If there's a market for rendered images, or animation sequences, or 2D illustrations, if the skills are there, why not incorporate those aspects as well to increase the revenue, and along the way maybe learn new skills? I always try to think outside the box with whatever I'm pursuing. And I think mindset plays a very important part in whether you'll be successful, whatever it is you're trying to do. You basically have to convince yourself that failure is not an option.  

Once you find a groove there is very little reason to branch out a lot. Being a content creator is like any other business, you find a sweet spot that works... and like any market, you have to follow changes and developments to adjust. Customers in poserdom like frequent releases - coincidentally, there are a few other businesses where customers like a degree of predictability. For example what they are teaching us in art school, for people who want to be gallery artists, and freelance illustrators, and concept artists - having product consistency works, in gallery artists it is expected. Too many different pieces, and it becomes hard for your gallery to market them, and you end up with fewer sales. If you develop a following they will like a degree of predictability... like if stonemason made a character, my first reaction would be huh? Then I would be, it better be really good, now that he is changing things. Other makers who have done characters and clothing and small environments, I'd likely be little more open to a variety.
Same goes for picking up work as a freelancer... it is harder to get work from a first time client then from a repeat client who already likes your work. It is entirely possible to have more than one successful focus of work, but not too many that you spread yourself too thin. Every market takes some time and effort to break into, then when you break in, you start making more money with equal or lesser time investment.... and get to really professional pay rates (like $80 to $100 per hour base for freelance work).

Also what I noticed as you get older, you really need to have that base, as your energy levels are lesser to constantly look at and experiment with a significant amount of new things. You sort of build yourself in the early years of your career, and in later years reap the benefits of that investment. Learning new things need not fall by the wayside in the process. Computer related stuff has enough new stuff even if you stick to just a few choice disciplines.  I've always made more money when I focused on achieving a good level of expertise to stand out from the crowd at least a little bit. At the same time, I did retain a hefty dose of versatility....  Finding the balance of the two (and few other things in the mix) is the key. Also people can have a variety of interests and strengths they may want to cater to.

 lol after reading these threads poor MLP MUSt be getting dizzy

but the underlying thought is that skill/consistently  and a willingness to help buyers that have problems is the way to get results, 1 complaint is stronger then 99 sales with no feedback

pretty much everything these days is SPECAILized find what your special at then do it as well as you can  

its YOU that makes success not what you do !! 

ps theres limits fat peeps don't make jockeys BUT they can own a racehorse ;-) 

 I want to encourage them to make more,

Glad I'm not the only one doing this.  I also email them and let them know how much I enjoy the product and thank them for their work.  I'm surprised at how often I'll receive a return message thanking me for the kind comments and sometimes expressing disappointment at how few people take the time to give them feedback.  Customers should be taking a little time to bolster the egos of their favourite content creators.

how important are the product titles really?

something basic like "some stuff you might need"  

 In all the years I've spent with Poser, I've only created one freebie (for Antonia at ShareCG). Making the product was a blast! Providing follow-up tech support for an issue that both I and my beta testers missed was very disheartening. NO ONE that downloaded it said anything to me directly! It was by sheer luck that I came across the problem in a random forum post. Without that post, my product would still have the bad issue today. Any new downloaders would probably see it and go "what IS this crap!?!"

This made me realize that being a vendor takes a lot of hard work, valuable time and dedication. Even with that, you're still at the mercy of demographics and a customer base that doesn't always tell you if you're doing something wrong. Honestly, I don't know how all of you vendors do it!

I AM glad that you do though! As for me, I may make more freebies at some point but, only when I know that I will have the follow-up time to support it. 

 Vendor selling for 1.000

That is 500 for the site
500 for the vendor.

Vendor has to declare income.
Vendor pays taxes.

Vendors net income 250. (from the 1.000 his buyers paid)
IF he /she is lucky !

Vendor wanna survive?
He/she needs to sell for 10.000 EACH Month to get 2.500 net each month.

so much work.  eeks.  havn't played FF 3 weekends in a row.   

  maybe, eventually, i could cut my dayjob hours. set the alarm for work at home.

Tell me about it. This is a steep learning curve ! I hope my second product takes less time than this !

yeah, making content can be very time consuming. Any tools you can get hold of to speed things up are big necessity.
DAZ studio has done a pretty decent job at making built-in tools that help content makers.  Poser - not so much. You heavily depend on third party stuff to speed up your production... and there are so many third party things out there, it can take time to find a good one too.
It is super easy to spend more time making things then you will get paid for them.
You don't get paid for learning curves.

But... most of this is true in any production environment. 3D or non 3D, you have to work efficiently, and strive for competence (competence and efficiency often go hand in hand)

 Vendor selling for 1.000

That is 500 for the site
500 for the vendor.

Vendor has to declare income.
Vendor pays taxes.

Vendors net income 250. (from the 1.000 his buyers paid)
IF he /she is lucky !

Vendor wanna survive?
He/she needs to sell for 10.000 EACH Month to get 2.500 net each month.

 

yeah, that's pretty close to how it works.  Taxes vary, and vendor percentages can vary, but also sales numbers can vary.... each product is a bit if a gamble too. You think people will like it and they don't, or the other way around.

 Yeah, I know.
There is a huge gap between what the buyer has to pay and what the creator/vendor gets out of it.

From "3 to 1" to "4 to 1" seems about right.

Would I become a vendor? That would be my second income. And taxes on a second income are HUGE in some countries.

Certainly percentages vary, and populartiy of an item is guesswork.

Didn't think I'd be spending as long as this on the textures :(  Not going to get my time back on this one for sure, but I wasn't expecting the first one to do too well.

how important is hype?

i've seen how the big boys do it, what bout the leetl dude just starting out?

 Vendor selling for 1.000

That is 500 for the site
500 for the vendor.

Vendor has to declare income.
Vendor pays taxes.

Vendors net income 250. (from the 1.000 his buyers paid)
IF he /she is lucky !

Vendor wanna survive?
He/she needs to sell for 10.000 EACH Month to get 2.500 net each month.

 

yeah, that's pretty close to how it works.  Taxes vary, and vendor percentages can vary, but also sales numbers can vary.... each product is a bit if a gamble too. You think people will like it and they don't, or the other way around.

You know what really sucks about that, don't you? The government, not the brokerage, is the one getting half the profit for the work YOU did. Because both you AND the brokerage have to pay taxes.

You know what really sucks about that, don't you? The government, not the brokerage, is the one getting half the profit for the work YOU did. Because both you AND the brokerage have to pay taxes.

Now THAT'S funny.  You really believe that the brokerages OR the vendors are paying 50% in taxes on their income?  Bwahaahahahahahahahahahaha! You might want to do some research into how much in taxes corporate America pays.

Like this quote "The company's pre-tax earnings from U.S. operations were $5.1 billion but it got a stunning $3.2 billion tax refund, according to the report."

And, this one..."which earned $198 million in pre-tax profits from U.S. operations and got a $249 million refund"

You know what really sucks about that, don't you? The government, not the brokerage, is the one getting half the profit for the work YOU did. Because both you AND the brokerage have to pay taxes.

Now THAT'S funny.  You really believe that the brokerages OR the vendors are paying 50% in taxes on their income?  Bwahaahahahahahahahahahaha! You might want to do some research into how much in taxes corporate America pays.

Like this quote "The company's pre-tax earnings from U.S. operations were $5.1 billion but it got a stunning $3.2 billion tax refund, according to the report."

And, this one..."which earned $198 million in pre-tax profits from U.S. operations and got a $249 million refund"

Trust me, I'm well aware of how much people pay in taxes. I was commenting on Vilters' example. Which, of course, is why I quoted it.

Watch the police and the tax man miss me

I'm mobile

Oooooh, yeah, hee!

(woww, it let me paste text)