I asked Smithmicro Experts yesterday if they could answer my white screens problem: Windows 7 / Poser 7

It seems that the recent mega Windows updates have altered the W7 OS to such an extent that it no longer supports Poser 7.

So my seven days of attempts to solve the problem myself were in vain.

MS strikes again.

 Look for and undo the update on the flash player and see if that does it. Also, you might want to undo the update to Internet Explorer.

I've lost count of the programs and games I used to play that no longer work on Windows, compatibility settings or not... such is the price of progress (or bad coding...especially games that used the system clock speed for play!) As Rokket suggests, you can wind back the updates, but at what cost to other things?

 Look for and undo the update on the flash player and see if that does it. Also, you might want to undo the update to Internet Explorer.

Why would IE or Flash help Poser 7?

Xartis Wrote:
"Poser 7 torpedoed by Microsoft"

It's a commercial OS and it's them that have control over your installation, not you!
What did you expect?

Really, all you need to do is wipe Windows completely and install Debian, that way, the manipulative corporate shit is gone for good, problem solved.
There's really nothing that the average computer user needs Windows for these days, it can all be done having the Debian-Linux OS installed:

• Internet
• Email
• Media Players
• The best 2D programs on the planet (GIMP etc).
• The best 3D program on the planet (Blender etc).
• The best Game Engines on the planet (Unreal Engine 4 etc).

It's all available natively on the Debian OS.

• Need an alternative to Poser? - there's MakeHuman, which just gets better and better, and again, available natively on the OS.
• Into Business and need an Office Suite? - there's Open Office etc, again, available natively on the OS.
• Into making music and need a DAW? - there's Renoise and BitWig etc, again, available natively on the OS.

There is absolutely no reason for the average user to continue using monstrous commercial operating systems these days.  It's almost as if they think installing these things will shut them off from life or their online friends or something.  Fact is, it does the opposite, cause you can continue to do what you do now, but you also get interested in things you never knew about and you start to realise just how obtrusive the commercial OS's have gotten over the last decade. You use your lovely new OS and you keep thinking, damn, that's the way I always wanted it to work, and it does, cause it's actually there for your benefit - not anyone else.

All of a sudden, everything just works: you put your files in a folder and you know where all those folders are located.  You open a file and it just works, you connect a device and it just drags and drops without any intervention or manipulation at all - just as it used to be.  You get to use the internet with the most secure (publicly audited) web browsers available.   You see a shiny new program and you can have it, for free, cause all the epicly good stuff for this OS is free anyway and will eventually become the industry standards.

And every day that goes by, the programs you use just get better and better, and it's all yours, all you have to do is download it!
You start this adventure by downloading Debian, and as the saying goes ... JUST DO IT!

If windows update only recently killed your Poser7?

Do a Windows restore to a previous date, and then disable Windows automatic updating.

Lots of tutorials all over the net.

Seriously... how long do people expect a modern OS to support older legacy software from a decade ago??

My Eight year old Macbook is still running mac os 10.4"Tiger" and runs my old seat of poser 6 flawlessly.

But I seriously doubt that the latest mac OS "Yosemite" would kindly host poser 6
without " issues"

I recently made a partial Migration from OSX to a new PC with win7and upgraded to poser pro 2014.

I understand this is often dictated by ones personal finances

But it is not always an evil corporate conspiracy when a company updates it products to take advantage of emerging innovations in hardware in a highly competitive global market.

Poser 7 runs fine on my Win7 64 bit with all the recent updates except for IE11.  IE11 still wreaks havoc with the P8/Pro2010 library.  You can control updates simply by changing the settings.  You do not have to give MS free reign. 

@Xartis: I'm running windows 7 64-bit, with the latest windows update and my Poser 7 still works just fine. So perhaps it is not windows that is causing this issue for you. Do you have all of the service releases for Poser 7 installed?

The only thing is, that I don't have IE 11 installed, as I don't use IE and avoided installing it a while back after many people were having issues with Poser 9/2012 not working correctly.

But I don't think IE has an affect on Poser 7.

poser7 has the (so hate it) content tab looking for content paradise.  what browser is that?

another guess, a security patch may have done something with your permissions on your poser folders.

IE11 only seems to cause issue with P8/Pro2010. 

For the OP: how soon after the Windows update did you begin to have problems?  If it was right after, check your windows update log.  If you really feel some part of the update is the cause, uninstall all of the updates to the last date you were certain it was working.  You can reinstall the updates one at a time if necessary until you find the one that is causing the problem.  If it is a windows update issue, change your settings so that you receive notification of updates and can pick and chose those updates you want.

Another thing with P7 to try is going into the prefs folder and deleting the ini file.  Make sure Poser is closed before you do this.  When you launch Poser again, the ini file will be built.  It might take a bit longer to load as it rebuilds but it's no biggie. 

 look at graphic drivers too ~ if they was updated they maybe the cause

ps windows version of NVidia drivers is not the same as the true NVidia drivers  although that was with blender and I should know better ;-) 

Oh - yeah - I once had a situation where Windows updated my video driver. I had to undo that, not just for Poser. My games broke.

I no longer let windows update without asking my permission, and I review the items and veto what I don't want.

WOW what a deluge.  Thanks to everybody.  In many cases I have already done most of the above. It is true that IE11 screws up P8, my previous visit to SmithMicro help department was about P8 and I had just allowed Windows to load IE 11.  So I wound back to IE 10 and all was well again.

Yes, I have ensured that my Poser executable and Render files are allowed by Windows Firewall, that was done two years back.

Yes, the Problem arose, slowly, a day or two after a massive 158 MB Windows update package.  I, too, have restricted Windows to ask me first and normally I do vet the crap before I allow any of it to get into my machine.  However I have to admit that this time I did not vet the package.  Dogs were barking, my wife was shrieking her car wouldn't start, we had a Twister heading in our direction and 'more important' things like that took priority, F**k it.

Regarding graphics Drivers, Shucks, I did update my Drivers as part of my solo attempt to cure the Problem.  I fired-up P8 this morning and guess what happened . . .   

Yep !  ZAP and I'm out in my desktop again.

This is getting serious.  No weekend renders ?  Shi* it's easier to quit smoking.

If an application is 10 years old, consider running it inside a VM running a legacy OS, or partitioning your drive. APIs can and will change and so will security models, and this isn't restricted to any particular OS or vendor. 

Vista introduced a more secure memory access model which broke a number of applications using the Postgres SQL backend. Unfortunately you can't just swap out a dynamically linked library with a newer one (in pretty much any OS), so the applications themselves had to be rebuilt against the Vista-compatible version of Postgres. 

OS X has progressively dropped support for a number of legacy APIs and has successively tightened application access to the filesystem with each release. 

The only reason desktop Linux users are insulated from this is because the userbase gets its software from repositories synchronized to OS/kernel releases so the updates happen automatically. Corporate users of enterprise Linux applications that don't/can't come in the form of source code or package manager installs are in the same boat as the rest of us. 

Which, Duane, is why people shouldn't use corporate products for personal things.  The only stuff that ever comes into and goes out of my Linux installation, is what I say so, and every user needs that level of control.

That last comment from Baggins was so hilarious it was almost pitiful.  For crying out loud, if Microsoft really wants to put something onto a computer running Microsoft Windows, believe me, they can, and they can do that whether or not you have the option switched on or you decide to allow it.  All they have to do is claim it was a bug that allowed it to happen, and I'm guessing when the time comes they want to sell everyones data, that's the excuse they'll use, that the data wasn't sold, it was stolen.

Perhaps it would be wise to check-over that EULA of Microsoft's and read it for what it actually is (a licence for them to do as they wish).

I doubt those poor Apple useds asked Apple to shove a complimentary copy of U2 (or whatever it was) onto their iThing, but they did.  And I very much doubt those Amazon Kindle useds thought Amazon could delete books from their devices without permission, but they did regardless of the settings imposed.  FFS, if you use a commercial OS, it means it was designed by them for their benefit and profit, not yours - you're not a user of the product - you are the product.  The only reason these corporate fucks can do this is because you have their products installed on your system, and for as long as it remains there, your system might as well be their system, they have more control over it than you do.

Removing that crap from your system and moving over to a secure, publicly audited OS, would obviously be a very wise move.  There are ample warnings out there about what is going on and what is going to happen if you continue to use that stuff, and the funny thing is, you shouldn't need others to point these things out, it should be obvious.  None of us like all this crap, but it is what it is so you have got to protect yourself from it.

Every issue you have with Adobe, Apple, and Microsoft products, exists because you're using products created by those corporate assholes :-D

That last comment from Baggins was so hilarious it was almost pitiful.  For crying out loud, if Microsoft really wants to put something onto a computer running Microsoft Windows, believe me, they can, and they can do that whether or not you have the option switched on or you decide to allow it.  

I call complete bullshit on this. I have many Microsoft operating system installed here and have set up thousands of Microsoft op systems. Microsoft can not add anything to a system if you turn it off. I am sure you will site someone that says otherwise, but I know better. You always toot the Linux horn stating how wonderful it is on a desktop system, and that is not the case or it would be used far more than it is. On a server, yes it is a great op system because everything you need server wise is available. On a desktop there are a lot of Windows programs that there are no Linux alternatives out there that can hold a candle to them. Linux dominates the server market, the supercomputer market, and the cell phone market, but has never gone much above 15% of desktops. Windows 10 for free is going to drop that percentage again, simply because it is going to be free. 

Linux on a desktop will never be popular as long as Microsoft continues to pull away from it in areas that Linux and Unix can not compete. Microsoft is the only operating system out there that can do certain things. A perfect example is using multiple GPU cores on the step prior to sending info to the RAMDAC. Linux cant do that, Unix cant do that either because they can not use DirectX. Everything graphics intensive on Linux and Unix use OpenGl, which is usually more than a few years behind DirectX. There are things that MS server op systems can do that Linux can't do as well. Unix already had a firm grip on the server market before Microsoft even wrote a server op system.

Unix servers are counted as Linux even thou they really are not. They don't consider a Mac as Linux, even thou they are based on the same idea. So even those numbers are purposely misleading.

Linux has its pluses in certain areas, I am not going to debate that. But it has more problems than you will ever say. There is another bug in Linux that has recently been discovered. And if your running it now, your system is susceptible to it. Toot that for a bit....

For those that want to see how "secure" Debian Linux supposedly is, look at this page.

https://packetstormsecurity.com/files/os/debian/

Have a look around, then ask yourself if Windows ever had that many updates to plug holes............................

The thing I find vaguely amusing is how minimal these "updates" are. They're a lot of surface shining, but really, does the OS run any better? Is it accomplishing anything the previous one couldnt?

Granted, I'm on a Mac at home, but I use a PC at work, and I frankly do not understand these updates... on either platform. The changes seem to be so minimal as to be absurd, and yet somehow they influence all of the running software...

And it doesnt have to be "ten year old legacy software". Anyone else remember the debacle of Mac OS7 and what it did to very current Adobe products?

Oh - yeah - I once had a situation where Windows updated my video driver. I had to undo that, not just for Poser. My games broke.

I no longer let windows update without asking my permission, and I review the items and veto what I don't want.

I had the exact same problem with windows update and my video driver.  The only thing I do now in windows are the security updates.  When it comes to optional updates then I'm really picky to the point where "If it's not broke.. don't fix it."

For those that want to see how "secure" Debian Linux supposedly is, look at this page.

https://packetstormsecurity.com/files/os/debian/

Have a look around, then ask yourself if Windows ever had that many updates to plug holes............................

As both a windows and linux user (at work and at home), a Microsoft certified developer and an open source enthusiast (Microsoft actually has a lot of open source material), I can tell you that statement is one of the biggest misconception regarding security.  You don't ever read about Windows (or Mac) security holes not because they don't exists, they simply are not looked upon until something bad happens, or they have big enough security patch so release a windows update. 

If you could take a look at Windows source code, the way you can with Debian, you would end up with a list of bugs and security holes at the very least as big as that, but probably much much bigger.

David Wrote:
"I call complete bullshit on this."

Well that was rather naughty of you, considering you're siding with a proven datamining corporation, one that datamines on an epic scale.

And BTW, it's about to get much worse in Windows 10.  Fact is, you haven't a clue what that OS is doing behind your back because you cannot examine the source code.  And yes indeed, if Microsoft wants to put something an your Windows installation, it can do so without your permission.  If you think otherwise then you are incurably gullible and I hope for your own sake that you're not that gullible. 

As for comparing a corporate datamining OS like Windows to an honest and open OS like Debian, I'd like to remind you that you're free to examine every last bit of Debian because it has nothing to hide (it's there for your benefit).  Nothing is perfect, and when a bug is found, it gets sorted.  I could go on for days why you should wipe Windows off your computer, but you're confident you have things sussed so I'll leave you to it.

Hioushi just pointed out the obvious, it's clear and to the point, and you either understand why that is of VITAL importance, or you don't.

For those that want to see how "secure" Debian Linux supposedly is, look at this page.

https://packetstormsecurity.com/files/os/debian/

Have a look around, then ask yourself if Windows ever had that many updates to plug holes............................

Nice to see that someone is adding information to support their point of view, beats the 'I have no proof but the future is this'.

Hornet, seriously, don't even go there, Windows is probably the worst, most insecure and flakey OS in existence, and the web is awash with demonstrations of why the Windows OS is flawed by design.  You don't need virus protection on a Debian installation, Debian is a totally different take on an OS to Windows.

You're comparing a commercially developed OS to a publicly designed and audited one - there is no comparison.

David literally just shot himself in the foot by admitting that Linux has it's strength in security and that's why almost the entire web is based around it.  Windows servers aren't popular because the web companies that host them know which is best, and that is a Linux server, not a Microsoft one.

You cannot trust an OS developed behind closed doors no more than you can trust a server that was developed that way, and anyone who thinks that trusting a commercial OS is better than trusting a publicly audited one, has reasoning far beyond my comprehension.

Hornet, seriously, don't even go there, Windows is probably the worst, most insecure and flakey OS in existence, and the web is awash with demonstrations of why the Windows OS is flawed by design.  You don't need virus protection on a Debian installation, Debian is a totally different take on an OS to Windows.

You're comparing a commercially developed OS to a publicly designed and audited one - there is no comparison.

David literally just shot himself in the foot by admitting that Linux has it's strength in security and that's why almost the entire web is based around it.  Windows servers aren't popular because the web companies that host them know which is best, and that is a Linux server, not a Microsoft one.

You cannot trust an OS developed behind closed doors no more than you can trust a server that was developed that way, and anyone who thinks that trusting a commercial OS is better than trusting a publicly audited one, has reasoning far beyond my comprehension.

No problem, I had no intention of going there as clearly I have reasoning far beyond you comprehension :-)).

One of the biggest misconceptions about Windows, is that it can not be set up securely. Lets get something out there right off the bat, the default installation does not do this.

Scripted installs can be set up so that nothing in the base installation can be changed without knowing the passwords to do so, similar to how it is done in Linux.

Go to any Hotel that has pc's setup for the guests, those are usually perfect examples of a scripted installations that you can not change anything on unless you know the admin, or root, name and password. They have no antivirus, no malware protection, just like a Linux install. If something in memory does get changed, all you have to do is reboot the machine and it is back to the same way it is every time you reboot it. Linux on the other hand, has a number of holes that allow buffer overflows to gain root access without knowing the Admin name or password. How safe is root, if you don't need either of those to make changes? Simple answer is that it isn't..

Like I said before, I have set up thousands of systems spanning many operating systems. And if you want the most secure operating system out there, Linux and Microsoft need not even be brought up in the discussion because there is another one that is far more secure than either of them ever will be.

Since so many of you seem to know far more about that than I do, please tell me what operating system that is............ It is has backwards compatible as well, back into the 1960s.... It is also the longest running op system ever made that you probably never even heard of, or even saw a system running it....

If you want secure, you should be running that OP system because it has a track record for rock solid security...........................

@Hornet
That's fine, and at least there's something we agree on.

And anyway, due to my incomprehension of your way of thinking, why not explain why you think it is better to trust something that was developed behind closed doors by a corporation chasing profit, than one that was developed by the public, for the public, with no interest in profit.  So why do you see things that way?

I think what it boils down to is that people simply don't like the idea of giving-up what they're used to using - no matter how dangerous it is.  It's not just the security, Hornet, it's the fact that these OS datamine on an epic scale, and when you mix what is being datamined with the security factors, that's a problem.  I'll explain this using an example I just came across on that website David pointed out.

Attached is a security issue with the Apple stuff, it demonstrates perfectly why you cannot trust a fucking thing they tell you.  As long as you buy their products, they're happy, cause their EULA protects them from anything you suffer as a result of using their devices.  Now here's the difference between using Debian (which has bugs), and iOS or Windows (which has bugs).  The difference is that when Debian has a security issue, it's just that, a security issue.  When iOS or MacOS or Windows has a security issue, however, it's much more than that because of the datamining those OS do (and you'd be surprised what gets datamined).

"There's an application that can record every keystroke you've ever typed on your smartphone, even an iPhone. It's not a sinister Trojan, or an evil keylogger. It's simply the database that the phone draws on to supply AutoComplete results. You can't dig in and see the keystrokes yourself, but at the RSA Conference security vendor StrikeForce Technologies demonstrated that external software can read back that database and thus read out every text or email you've sent and, more important, every password you've typed."

That's just one of a growing amount of issues that come about by using these OS and systems that are designed to datamine you.  The spell checker isn't there to help you with your spelling, it's there to help them datamine you.  They won't tell you that, but it's obvious that it is (as far as I'm concerned it is), and why do I believe this?  It's the fact that a spellchecker database could be installed locally on the device itself (but isn't).  So take a look at that Apple issue in the image, add that to what was just quoted, and add that to every other fucking thing that they datamine from their users, and believe me, there's going to be a lot of seriously depressed and even suicidal individuals when all this data gets out.  Everything they wrote could be linked to their photo, their address, their bank account, their email, and even their fucking fingerprints.

So now, why not go and see if you can find something about datamining issues with Debian?

Good luck with that, because it doesn't datamine, that's the difference, Hornet, and how do you avoid all this crap?
Use a sensible, publicly audited OS that doesn't datamine (Debian), an OS developed by us (the public) instead of epic-scale datamining corporations.

@ **shvrdavid OS/400 or one of it's mainframe variants perhaps? (We use AS/400s)
**

@Hornet
That's fine, and at least there's something we agree on.

And anyway, due to my incomprehension of your way of thinking, why not explain why you think it is better to trust something that was developed behind closed doors by a corporation chasing profit, than one that was developed by the public, for the public, with no interest in profit.  So why do you see things that way?

I think what it boils down to is that people simply don't like the idea of giving-up what they're used to using - no matter how dangerous it is.  It's not just the security, Hornet, it's the fact that these OS datamine on an epic scale, and when you mix what is being datamined with the security factors, that's a problem.  I'll explain this using an example I just came across on that website David pointed out.

Attached is a security issue with the Apple stuff, it demonstrates perfectly why you cannot trust a fucking thing they tell you.  As long as you buy their products, they're happy, cause their EULA protects them from anything you suffer as a result of using their devices.  Now here's the difference between using Debian (which has bugs), and iOS or Windows (which has bugs).  The difference is that when Debian has a security issue, it's just that, a security issue.  When iOS or MacOS or Windows has a security issue, however, it's much more than that because of the datamining those OS do (and you'd be surprised what gets datamined).

"There's an application that can record every keystroke you've ever typed on your smartphone, even an iPhone. It's not a sinister Trojan, or an evil keylogger. It's simply the database that the phone draws on to supply AutoComplete results. You can't dig in and see the keystrokes yourself, but at the RSA Conference security vendor StrikeForce Technologies demonstrated that external software can read back that database and thus read out every text or email you've sent and, more important, every password you've typed."

That's just one of a growing amount of issues that come about by using these OS and systems that are designed to datamine you.  The spell checker isn't there to help you with your spelling, it's there to help them datamine you.  They won't tell you that, but it's obvious that it is (as far as I'm concerned it is), and why do I believe this?  It's the fact that a spellchecker database could be installed locally on the device itself (but isn't).  So take a look at that Apple issue in the image, add that to what was just quoted, and add that to every other fucking thing that they datamine from their users, and believe me, there's going to be a lot of seriously depressed and even suicidal individuals when all this data gets out.  Everything they wrote could be linked to their photo, their address, their bank account, their email, and even their fucking fingerprints.

So now, why not go and see if you can find something about datamining issues with Debian?

Good luck with that, because it doesn't datamine, that's the difference, Hornet, and how do you avoid all this crap?
Use a sensible, publicly audited OS that doesn't datamine (Debian), an OS developed by us (the public) instead of epic-scale datamining corporations.

I didn't actually say I trusted any of the software you have mentioned irrespective of who created it.  As for my data mining, quite honestly, I just can't get excited about it.  I use my computer to follow my interest in photography and 3D renders, for those pictures that I cannot take for one reason or another.  I have enough cash to buy the hobby versions of software that allows me to do just that.  I enjoy either taking pictures or creating renders and as such don't really like to spend more time than I have to in learning new software so I buy what I find works for me. I take my photography seriously and so when it came to my camera I purchased it from one of those large corporations rather than use something a committee made up in a garage somewhere.  I use it a great deal for wild life photography so I need something I can use almost instinctively and easily.

Now I doubt any of that will make my way of thinking any more comprehensible for you for I know in your book that probably makes me gullible, shortsighted, stupid or a mixture of all of those and a few more attributes besides.  I also know that you will think I am heading for disaster, and you could well be right, but they, whoever 'they' may be, had better get their skates on as I am way passed middle age and not sure just how many years I have left.  In the meantime I will carry on enjoying my hobbies, varied as they are, in the same way I have done for years.  All of this with the words 'no doubt the world in unfolding as it should' ringing in my ears.

@ **shvrdavid OS/400 or one of it's mainframe variants perhaps? (We use AS/400s)
**

We sort of have a winner, AS/400 is Version 4 of the client (terminal) side. OS/390, which morphed into Zos (server side, now in version 2.1) is the longest running op system in existence and the most secure. MS and Linux cant hold a candle to is it terms of security. Even if you can get to the main console (physically, as in standing in front of it) there is nothing you can do to gain access to it without going thru layers of security if it is properly set up. You cant even read or access the directories on the disks at the main console without the proper permissions. If you want your system to be like Fort Noxx, standard installations of Windows and Linux need not apply for the position. With custom installs, Windows offers better protection than Linux does, even thou both of them have known and unknown security issues. Lots of people will argue that, but it is next to impossible to do a fully protected installation of Linux due to root access holes which can wreck havoc. It is fairly easy to do it in Windows and the tools to do so are freely available with tons of documentation, it is not the norm to do scripted installs of Windows but it is fully supported on all versions.

I have been working with MS op systems since DOS, Linux before its release to the GNU, and Unix and IBM OP systems since the middle 70's.

So take what others say about it however you want since they appear to have far more experience with it than I do. Many people don't have a clue about operating system security and believe that if it is on the internet, it must be true.

The biggest Achilles heal Linux has, is that there are to many versions of it floating around that are all basically copies of the failed Minix project.

The most successful thing that came from Linux is the server and cell phone market..........

Ironically, Debian Linux is ranked 5th in Linux server use, and the top 4 are version based off if it in one way or another.

If Debian is so great, what have 4 other versions based off of it proved to be better server options? Simple answer is companies like RedHat, which is a large corporation, are far better at it than Debian developers due to that thing called money.........

Hornet Wrote:
"Now I doubt any of that will make my way of thinking any more comprehensible for you for I know in your book that probably makes me gullible, shortsighted, stupid or a mixture of all of those and a few more attributes besides."

Well even if I agreed, Mr Shane would only get angry again.  Actually, I think you're just a little naive and that's probably the term I should have used most times in these conversations - so fair enough.  I'm man enough to admit if I'm out of line.  I certainly don't intend to offend people, it's just that some things are so obviously bad news that they should be avoided at all costs.  In less than, say, 6 years time, youngsters, teenagers and young adults especially will look upon these recent decades and wonder how the fuck they could be so naive.

While people no doubt despise me for the things I say here, they should question themselves why I spend my time pointing these things out.  I get absolutely nothing out of it, I'm not an a payroll for the stuff I write, but I write it because I hate to see innocent people being shafted by these corporate assholes.  People have totally lost the plot, they have forgotten that when they buy something, that's it, deal done, they shouldn't have to tolerate all this privacy invasion and datamining in order to use a fucking OS that they paid for.  You paid for the product and you owe them nothing - and they have absolutely no fucking right to suck-on, and use customers like that.

This is why people need to be made aware of projects like Debian, it's there to protect us from shit like this and should therefore be embraced and encouraged, not spat upon if favour of corporate assholes that are out to screw you for everything they possibly can.  My apologies to those I offend, but as I've said before, it's not that I don't like Apple gear (I'd love an iPad), and it's not that I don't like Windows (I've used it ever since I got my first PC).  It's just that I will not let those fuckers take me for a ride, and seriously, neither should anyone else if they know what's good for them.

Anyway, time for some chill I think :

David Wrote:
"If Debian is so great, what have 4 other versions based off of it proved to be better server options? Simple answer is companies like RedHat, which is a large corporation, are far better at it than Debian developers due to that thing called money........."

What's so great about Debian is that they aim for a blob-free system, unlike those commercial "money" enterprises you speak of, that's what.

The blobs found in those commercial editions of Linux you speak of mean you're technically no better off than using MacOS or Windows. Hidden binaries are no different to protected code, they can both do stuff you're not aware of.  The problem with getting a blob-free distro is that is hinders compatibility, but that's something the Debian project are working especially hard on, to create a system without blobs that is also compatible with the maximum amount of hardware out there.

Again, you're spitting in the face of efforts that are there to protect you, and favouring corporate activity in place of it, just as those people do when they finally decide to move to Linux and do something stupid like choosing Ubuntu instead of Debian.  The difference in philosophy between those two projects could not be any greater.

One of them is a rightly regarded as a disgrace to the Linux community (Ubuntu), and the other has the respect it deserves (Debian).

So why is Ubuntu the number one Linux and Debian is number 5? Both are free, both have freely available source code, etc.

Just incase you are going to say otherwise, here are the links to the source code.

Ubuntu source code is here. http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ Nothing to hide, it is all there.

Debian is here... https://sources.debian.net/ Nothing to hide, it is all there too.

RedHat/CentOs is here.... http://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/ .......

I am curious to hear what you have to say about that, especially since Ubuntu is based on the Debian kernel..............

Your paying for support, not for something you insist is hidden in a binary..........

RedHat/CentOs is on the Fedora kernel....

Even the ones you have to pay for have freely available source code.........................................................

I just explained why, it's to do with blobs and the various attitudes towards them.

No, you didn't explain anything. All the source code is available, contrary to what you eluded to in prior posts. All of them support custom installs that drop all the Blob crap you have installed with a standard Debian install.

You are spreading biased crap about something you know little about. I posted links to prove that there is nothing to hide even in paid versions that you claim have hidden blobs, which they do not.....................

Do you even understand what a protected binary-blob is?  You cannot see what is inside a blob by linking to source-code for a distro.  If they could see what was inside of them they would not need to be concerned with removing them regardless.  Blobs contain executable code hidden in the kernel (that's what I mean by hidden), and it's irrelevant whether both have the same blobs.

What's relevant is that Debian prefer and strive for a completely blob-free system, and you should strive to run one.

Wow, the source code for the Kernels is available as well.............

Do tell how things are hidden in the source code where you cant see them because of your rose colored glasses..........

You can assemble it yourself for Christ's sakes........

Your talking in circles, because you don't really know that much about it.........

Redhat is one of the leanest kernels there is, You can put the entire operating system installer one a 250 meg partition. You need a DVD for Debian Ubuntu, and many others because it is full of the Blob stuff you claim it is not full of...

That 250 meg includes all the drivers to get it to run, yes you may need special drivers for things after it boots for the first time, but that is no different that any other Linux destro either..

Redhat also runs on everything I have ever installed it on, I cant say that about Debian or Ubuntu........ They don't have drivers for everything and your delusional if you think they do. The Debian kernel wont even support some server hardware because the kernel can not even address it out.

How are you going to set up a 2 exbibyte storage rack in Debian? Simple answer is that you cant...

I wont even get into the pooled memory issues the Debian kernel has, but you probably know more about that than I do anyway......

I'm not knocking the leaness of Redhat, but no, having drivers for your hardware isn't acceptable if it involves any form of code that cannot be audited, because doing so would create a security black-spot on your system.  The only way you can know for sure that nothing nasty is hidden, is if everything is auditable, and that's all there is to it.

That's what Debian is striving for, to be completely transparent, to contain nothing that cannot be audited - that's the way forward, the way to go.
It's irrelevant to me how fast other distros develop in comparison, because what they're developing isn't based on the same philosophy as Debian.

You are really missing the point.

All versions of Linux are required to have the source code for everything available to anyone that wants it. Linus Torvolds set that is stone with the GNU license. Maybe you should read about that....

99.99% of the drivers have the source code available and there are alternatives to the .01% that the source code has yet to be released. The biggest offenders of this are video card drivers. And I would bet that you have a certified driver installed for your video card that the source code is in that .01% How are you going to inspect the code in that?

Debian's philosophy is not that much different from other destros, but the campaign to slam others is.

Maybe you should be running this http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/  It is fits what you claim would be the best Linux to run..... It is based on the Debian core, and does not have any "blob" in it at all. The whole thing is about 50 megabytes and will scream on a 486 with 128 meg of memory..............

There are hundreds, thousands perhaps, of forum threads and discussions filling the internet about this subject, or I should say all of the subjects being thrown in here, ranging from technical (security, features, desktop use capacity) to philosophical (freedom, open source, ethics). 

It feels like a Windows vs Linux debate from 1999 around here...

You are really missing the point.

All versions of Linux are required to have the source code for everything available to anyone that wants it. Linus Torvolds set that is stone with the GNU license. Maybe you should read about that....

99.99% of the drivers have the source code available and there are alternatives to the .01% that the source code has yet to be released. The biggest offenders of this are video card drivers. And I would bet that you have a certified driver installed for your video card that the source code is in that .01% How are you going to inspect the code in that?

Debian's philosophy is not that much different from other destros, but the campaign to slam others is.

Maybe you should be running this http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/  It is fits what you claim would be the best Linux to run..... It is based on the Debian core, and does not have any "blob" in it at all. The whole thing is about 50 megabytes and will scream on a 486 with 128 meg of memory..............

Too much incorrect information in a single post. Not all opensource is GNU or follow the GNU license, Ubuntu doesn't, not 100% (they include closed Nvidia drives, among others https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP8CNp-vksc) Linus Torvalds (not Linus Torvolds) created the Linux Kernel, not GNU, that's Richard Stallman, he leads the GNU project and the Free Software Fundation.

Again, mixing technical points of view with philosophical points of views.

I never said Linus created the GNU, I meant he locked it in stone by using that license when he released it.

I mentioned the fact about the video drivers, but apparently you missed that. I never said they were the only ones either, just the biggest offenders.

Read this about Debian. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/06/17/debian_chromium_hubbub/

Then ask yourself how and why they allowed that to happen. They are not even sure what else might have been installed on compromised systems.

The spyware everyone rants about in Ubuntu, can be turned off by the user.

Which one do you think is worse? I think the one in Debian is far worse, because they are not even sure about the severity of it yet.

You cant turn something off that you don't even know is there...........

I'm not knocking the leaness of Redhat, but no, having drivers for your hardware isn't acceptable if it involves any form of code that cannot be audited, because doing so would create a security black-spot on your system.  The only way you can know for sure that nothing nasty is hidden, is if everything is auditable, and that's all there is to it.

That's what Debian is striving for, to be completely transparent, to contain nothing that cannot be audited - that's the way forward, the way to go.
It's irrelevant to me how fast other distros develop in comparison, because what they're developing isn't based on the same philosophy as Debian.

Debian's mission statement is to be "militantly free," not any more transparent than any other distro. Also as someone who actually uses RHEL, I've never heard our unix team describe it as "lean." People use RHEL because its team more aggressively handles security flaws (their team patched Heartbleed even though it wasn't their project) and because it has commercial technical support. Ideologically Arch, Gentoo, Damn Small Linux and Slackware are much closer to what you claim to stand for but it's doubtful you have hands-on experience using anything other than Debian and its forks. And by hands-on, I don't count "installed distro, used it for a day and replaced it with another." 

If you figured a commercial OS product's forum to be a safe haven for (inaccurately) parroting OS rhetoric unchecked because its users are presumably brainwashed capitalist slaves without day jobs using multiple OSes, you were misinformed. You're a pit preacher who doesn't actually read the Bible. Let actual nerds talk about their stuff and stop impersonating us badly.

Pumeco, as much as you will never admit. Ubuntu is Lixus's best chance of ever becoming mainstream on a desktop.

Ubuntu is flat out honest about what and why they do it, it is in the documentation and no one is hiding anything from any user that reads it.

What recently happened with Debian is exactly the reason it is not contributing to that.

Debian pulled a fast one with the latest debacle, which violated their own "sacred code" that you spew out constantly, and has many people wondering what is really going on.

You probably disagree, because now that Debian is caught with their pants down your argument about what they believe in is out the window.

The code was approved, inserted into a destro, and goes against everything Debian says they stand for. 

They got caught violating the trust of people a lot like you, and you are too blind to see that they are really doing: thinking it could never happen from Debian, after all.... 

It did, all of you have been duped, the cat is out of the bag..........

So much for what they believe in, that went out the window and let corporate greed install things on your machine without you knowing it, without your passwords, etc.

It is a perfect example of executing code at the root level without having, or needing, your permission to do so.

Another fine example of an operating system you thought you were in control of when you actually are not.

Back doors are in there that people obviously know about, or the code would not have been able to do what it did..

Debian went out the door, with a built in back door, the code to exploit it, with shining approval... And you will never face these facts...

Your brainwashed into thinking that they would never do that, and it is beyond obvious what they did............

I agree, Ubuntu is Linux' best chance of getting more people on board, and in a way, Ubuntu is actually helping the platform as a whole, gain users.  The good thing about it is that it's good enough to get people to drop MacOS and Windows, and that means people are getting into the Linux way of doing things.  This indirectly benefits the non-commercial Linux distro's, because after using Ubuntu, people are no longer afraid of Linux.  This makes it easier for people to move from Ubuntu to a more trustworthy Linux-based distro.

As for Debian, I'll look (very carefully) into what you said because it's clear to me there's a lot of well-funded back-stabbing goes on, and it could be that Debian is being attacked for it's policy.  You need to remember that with monsters such as Microsoft etc out there, anything is possible.  As far as I'm concerned, the only reason Microsoft are developing Windows 10 for the Raspberry Pi is to try and push Raspbian (The official Debian OS for the Raspberry Pi), off the platform because they know it's the ideal web machine, and it's gathered such a following they can no longer ignore it.  They know that when people use it as the ideal web-browsing machine, they're protected from getting datamined by Microsoft.  This is a clear indication at just how desperate those corporate fuckers are to protect their datamining venture.  Again, this is a red light that for some reason, the public in general, just cannot see

Anyone who installs Windows 10 on a Raspberry Pi, should be shot out of sheer immoral activity.  The only consolation is that those dumb enough to install Windows 10 on their Raspberry Pi, will give-up the benefits of having open hardware as soon as they do so - and they'll pay the price for doing so.  People are neive though, and people will install it en masse.

"You're a pit preacher who doesn't actually read the Bible. Let actual nerds talk about their stuff and stop impersonating us badly."

LOL!!........ Duanemoody wins!!! 

Wrong, Duane wins nothing, there is nothing to win but plenty to lose, I know more about this stuff than Duane could even comprehend.  The only difference being, I haven't turned-up trying to prop-up my favourite OS just because it's not the one someone else happens to be pointing out.  If anyone needs to be quiet, it's him, until which time he can manage a sentence that actually makes sense.  Both Duane and David have spoken so much shit that it's almost impossible to believe they even work with this stuff at all.  Then again, working for companies tend to brainwash people.  I've taken a look into what David said about Debian, and sure enough, the reason should be obvious to anyone who understands the mechanisms, and as I already said, nothing got installed on my Debian installation that I haven't installed myself.  The only reason you think it has is because you really don't understand this stuff as much as you think you do.

Debian has the good reputation it has, for good reason, and it's not about to throw that away through the stupidity of unwarranted moves, that's reasonably obvious, and after looking into it, I've confirmed it enough to be happy with what I read.  Enough to tell you that Debian is staying put on my system.  We're not all gullible misinformed suckers.  And I'm not discussing this further, either, [edited for derogatory content against staff]

And I do mean figuratively of course - so don't get excited.

Right, that's it, you've edited my post with bullshit one too many times.

Maybe your destro is old enough not to have the offending code in it, so that would explain why nothing was installed on your system. But what worries me is how the root access was gained in the first place. That may very well be in your destro as well. There is obviously a back door, or it never could install anything without prompting for a password first. You can deny that all you want, but you know I am right about it.

Stealing root access requires a backdoor, which is obviously there in more than one destro. Thinking it isn't in another one is ludicrous, because whoever came up with the code to exploit it, found that in an earlier version. You cant write an exploit for a hole that is not there, that is not possible.

As far as my favorite op system goes, I don't really have one. Customers tell me what they want on their systems, and I put it on there for them. I have Windows, Linux and Unix, (some run inside VMWare) systems in my house, and all of them have a purpose that dictated what op system I put on them. Some of them don't even have a GUI installed.

The Windows 10 thing you brought up concerning the Raspberry is just odd. Windows 10 is designed to run on anything for the most part, and a Raspberry just happens to be one of the things it will run on. Windows 10 will be one of the first commercial OP systems to have that much device coverage, and that is something they have not done to this level before. Windows 10 also takes other Microsoft things and incorporates it into 10, Xbox being a prime example, but that is not going to be in the initial release. Being able to play an Xbox game on Windows will massively expand that market. Microsoft already has the market saturation to push whatever they want, no matter what anyone thinks about it.

Pumeco, I am glad that you think I don't understand any of this..........

Now explain to everyone how you would write code for an exploit that is not there...............