Hi all,

I'm planning a project which requires a full cardiovascular system for V4 and M4, something which would compliment the DAZ internal organs, skeleton and muscle maps.

The same project also requires some exceptionally highly detailed models of vehicles with all of their major mechanical components (such as engines with internal parts, gearbox with internal workings etc) and a city street with full building structures, as opposed to simply frontages, and sewer lines etc.

Basically, I need all of the elements of my scene to be 100% complete, just as my V4/M4 characters would be when using the aforementioned DAZ packages.

Although I'm grateful for any recommendations, I must stress that linking me to a car which simply has an engine is of no use to me, it must be complete, as in engine with pistons, cylinders, spark plugs etc, gearbox with gears and linkages etc, drivetrain, steering system. The street should be just as highly detailed too.

Could anyone make any recommendations, please? I realise these are very specific requirements, but I figured this was the best place to ask.

Thanks,

Glen.

Don't like to direct you to our competitor, but I believe DAZ may have what you need ... but it is very expensive.

Boni

I still see this entire place as a community, that goes for this site and others, even other software too. We all play with meshes and objects, we all render and animate. We're all in a community together. Sure, competition is a brilliant way to keep things going, but it must be friendly.

Do you have any links or a name I can search for, please?

Nope, Boni.  You misunderstood the query.  Glen is looking for an arterial/venous system fully rigged for V4/M4; no such a beast exists over at DAZ.  I haven't seen such a product in any of the popular sites, however, Turbosquid might have what you are looking for, but it might be very expensive. 

Zygote is the only one I am aware of the makes detailed medical models.  One, they are not rigged and two they are very expensive.  You can get them in obj format and attempt to rig them on your own.  As for vehicles, sorry, I don't know where you would find something that detailed.

the thing with a car is - why model the internals of the engine, gearbox etc. when they will never be seen?  I can't imagine there would be many vehicles that detailed - the polycount would be horrendous,

You could try turbosquid - or perhaps you may have to look at commissioning something

How does a full cardiovascular system, a fully detailed car model and fully detailed building structures (complete with restrooms and working toilets?) have anything in common?  What type of buildings?  What type of cars?

Frank, you're asking the wrong question. Instead, try asking "Why would you want details in your scene that normally wouldn't be seen?"
Obviously, as I'm asking for products with this level of detail, I plan on them being seen, that much should be obvious.

I've repeatedly had bad experiences with Turbosquid and Falling Pixel, so I'd rather not go back to them for these reasons. I could commission something, but my experience of requesting commissions has been somewhat uninspiring; nobody seems interested in producing 3D content for money unless it's something they are interested in producing for themselves, unfortunately.

What do they have in common? Well, take a wander onto any city street and realise that every single one of these things is present, right in front of you.

This is precisely what I'm hoping to show people; that simply because an average human being doesn't see something with their own eyes, right in front of them, doesn't mean that another, such as myself, doesn't 'see' such things.

What I'm hoping to achieve is a piece of work which, in a way, presents the viewer with the level of information which I, and others who process information as I do, process every second of my conscious life.

I'm not sure I fully comprehend why, whenever someone comes to these forums with a completely new idea, they appear to be mocked or otherwise downgraded.

This is the project I wish to undertake. These are the products I'm in need of in order to produce this work. I was under the impression that this was a place where a Poser user could ask questions and get answers. Perhaps I was mistaken.

I'm looking to create a complete city street scene with all of the elements which a typical street scene would contain and with all of those elements containing all of the most important elements which they do in real life.

I'm looking to do this in such a way as I can render the scene so that it visually depicts the information which I process when I see a scene like it in real life.

In short: You see a lamp post, I see a steel tube tapering and welded to a smaller circumference steel tube which ascends to a curve, where it is joined to a metal casing with a light fitting contained within it. This casing houses a glass bulb which has metal fittings and is filled with gas, and has an opening portion below which is transparent in order to allow light through. Atop this casing is a light sensor which is wired into circuitry within the casing to allow the light to illuminate when the atmospheric light falls below a predetermined level. The steel tubing contains wiring and transistors and is sunk into a foundation beneath the pavement. On the surface of the steel tube is a layer of paint which has been stencilled on to form a unique number which is used by the local authorities to identify that particular lamp post.

This is the level of information which I process whenever I see a lamp post (obviously, there are many different kinds of lamp post, so the details change as I see differences). I want to portray this level of information via an interactive piece of work which will allow viewers to manipulate the scene to reveal certain information.

I'm not just talking about lamp posts either; I'm talking about everything in life which can be visualised. Obviously, there are limits to what I can achieve with my software and hardware, however, I'd like to take this level of detail as far as I possibly can and, to do that, I need, at the very least, the products I've listed.

Thanks,

Glen.

It's an interesting idea, but turbosquid is about the only place you're going to find ready-made models with that level of detail, and even then it's not very common. Reason being most software - even the high end software - isn't capable of handling the amount of geometry it would require to fill an entire scene where every model is detailed to that degree, so most 3D modelers only create the details that you will see on the surface and often fill in the small details with material shaders and texture maps whenever possible. There's very little reason to model in details of an object when those details will never be seen in the finished piece so they only serve as resource hogs. Consider also, that without being an engineer or having access to detailed blueprints and references, most 3D modelers don't really know what those hidden details even look like. There are a number of other factors to consider as well, such as the complexity of trying to rig a figure with a full vascular system. It can be done but since it's a specialized kind of project that most people wouldn't see a need for, it's not very common to find. So I think your best bet would be to commission said models, but that could cost you quite a bit. Some of us will model anything a client wants for the right price, as long as it's legal. 

The total length of the human vascular system is in the order of 100,000 km; the task of modeling it in detail is left as an exercise to the reader.

Just looked up zygote's site. They have a complete male and female anatomy collection for around $21,000. $25,000 with textures. They don't appear to be rigged.

As I posted above, Zygote is the only make of detailed medical models that we have ever come across.  They are static so you would have to do any rigging yourself.  Add to that the high poly count.  I somewhat understand the desire of ultra detailing your scene of a city street but where does the the model of the circulatory system fit it?  Are you looking for detailing in skin vascularity?  Zevo has some vascular overlays both at Rendo and DAZ.  Also take a look at Corinthianscori's products at Rendo.  He has some textures that use layering to show the underlying blood vessels in the skin.

Glen, I hate when someone mocks fun of a question.  Even anything as simple as "What is a runtime".  I don't think you'll find that kind of attitude here.  If no one liked your question, or was mocking it then no one would take the time to ask questions about it.

Your's is a unique a request as I've ever seen.  I understand it and I do think it's an ambitious undertaking.  When we're on the street, we take in only what the brain needs to take in unless something unusual happens and then our brains begins to process that.  When I see sweetheart, I see her smile, mischievious eyes and other things that a male is programmed to see.  Not her cardiovascular system, tendons, dermis and epidermis.  Yet you're right.  It's all there.  I don't notice her lungs expanding but I don't notice the way she breathes unless she's working out.  I notice the outside of a 1940's muscle car but not the engine until I want to see what's under the hood, how the dash is set up.  I do think your request is ambitious but you have an idea and a dream and you want to see it realized.

Ya, those who have studied and create content do want to work on their own stuff.  Some will take on projects but only it's strikes their fancy as well.  Some have been burned.  When I was writing fiction for a defunct website, I received two requests.  Both times, I was burned severely and I'm sure that's happened to more than one artist. It's made them wary.  So if I have a request and they do agree, I am very grateful and will go out of my way for them, when they don't agree to a request, I still thank them for their time, which is their most precious resource.  Really.  I have one vendor I asked what I think is a simple question.  She has never answered back.  I don't hold any ill will toward her.  Either she's busy, which I understand, my request is beneath her genius, which it probably is or she just doesn't like me which my Mom will never understand.

However, I moved that question to the forums and I got several answers, all of which served my purpose.  Keep the communications lines open and know that any question asked about your project is probably a good one and means at least one person is interested.

I'm not mocking your question, it's perfectly valid as is my answer - I don't know of anyone who would go to that much detail unless they were doing the same thing as you are.  For 99%+ of renders that detail is irrelevant and "expensive" in time and polygons to model - you are asking for every single nut, bolt, washer etc. in an engine to be modelled

Good luck! (and I'm not being sarcastic - I genuinely do hope you find what you want but I have a feeling it will be very expensive if it exists at all)

I wasn't mocking the question just seeking a better understanding of the artist's vision and offering some other alternatives.  Zygote models are excellent models but carry large price tags and are extremely high poly.  I'm done.  Just one more reason not to even bother with this forum any longer.

'

I dont see anyone's questions being mocked or made fun of here. Am I missing something?

All I see are people offering suggestions for where such models might be found and the various issues with making such detailed models.

This is the project I wish to undertake. These are the products I'm in need of in order to produce this work. I was under the impression that this was a place where a Poser user could ask questions and get answers. Perhaps I was mistaken. I'm looking to create a complete city street scene with all of the elements which a typical street scene would contain and with all of those elements containing all of the most important elements which they do in real life.

I understand your quest. However, you must understand that what you are asking for is not a normal thing for 3D modelers to produce. At least inasmuch as the details that you are requesting be present within one model or crafted set of models suitable for the sort of rendering you wish to do.

However, you can find these sorts of things at various 3D sites, many of them for free. But, they will be of varying quality, of course.

For many of the small items you want, like fully modeled light-bulbs and such, you can find those in several places where people are uploading projects they've done for funsies or to practice their skills. For some esoteric models, like a fully modeled vehicle, you are not going to find them anywhere for free. Why? There's no practical use for such heavy geometry to be present in one model, just for general rendering. However, you could find such a model, but it would likely cost you a hefty amount of money because the labor involved is... a lot.

You can find free internal organ models, but many will be derived from CT scans and may not be at the resolution/fidelity that you want. You'll have to search hard for them and you will have file format problems with many, since they're not designed for non-professional use. However, if you can find a format that you can use and, more importantly, an object that you can actually texture in some way, you can probably adapt it to your use fairly well.

It would probably be a good idea to check Blender and Sketchup forums, where enthusiasts pump out a wide range of models. You will not find many mundane inorganic models in Poser or DAZ forums. Those programs are not focused on rendering inorganics. (Though, they can, but with varying ability. (Organic models, which these programs specialize in, are objects that generally represent natural things, like humans, cloth, plants and other objects that have "organic" soft-looking surfaces, with soft curves, etc. Inorganic objects are hard-surface objects, like tables, cars, airplanes, test-tubes, lamps, buildings, etc.. )You may find some direction for some of the more esoteric models, like the fully modeled engine/car, by querying various professional-level CAD and design forums. The chances of finding free models would be low, however, as anything like that would be purpose-built.

Some of the best scene construction can be seen in Stonemason's work. He's one of the only artists that specializes almost entirely on constructing outdoor/indoor scenes and his work is beautiful. You might be able to find some of his products that you could retexture to provide you a basic starting point. There are also a few outdoor scene products available by other artists, but I do not know the resolution of detail that you expect. There are several outdoor scene objects and resources available for free on ShareCG, but they may be of varying quality and resolution, so you may have to do some retexturing and add some objects to them for them to be suitable.

Lastly, there's always the option of grabbing a 3D program and starting work on the project, yourself. Looking for "exactly" what one wants is usually what forms the foundation behind the motivation for many learning 3D modeling.

PS - Don't get discouraged or upset. The sorts of things you're asking for are the exact opposite of what most 3D artists attempt to achieve with their work. The basic idea is to focus completely on the final, rendered, product and to construct the model in such a way as to fully accomplish that focused goal in the most efficient manner possible, not the most "realistic" manner possible. The concept of "Realsim" is applied to the final rendered product, not the 3D construction of it. Because of... reasons. :)

If models that are 100% complete in every detail exist at all, they'd be so large as to be quite unusable in a large scene.That's if they exist. Generally I'd imagine that detailed models fall into 2 categories - those made by professionals with a particular purpose in mind (advertising/marketing, CAD/CAM design and manufacture etc) and those made by hobbyists just for the sake of making a cool very detailed model. Both groups tend to focus on what interests them and leave out stuff that doesn't. The hobbyist who models the inside of a gearbox including the the little spring under the lip of the oil seal (because he has one open on his workbench for reference) isn't going to bother to make a car around it at the same level of detail because life is too short. The car manufacturer who produces detailed models of every part isn't going to bother to model every crimped-on terminal on the wiring harness because they simply don't need to see those. Both types of model will have too much detail in some areas and not enough in others.

Both types are made with a particular focused intention, localised detail for its own sake for the hobbyist, particular selective details for the pro, with no consideration given to optimizing the model so that it can be used as part of a large, complex scene (such as a game asset would be made).

Something like the car would probably have been modelled using a NURBS or parametric solids modeller (like Rhino, ProEngineer, Solidworks, Inventor etc) and even in its native format it would be a monster file with a million layers and a million material definitions. Converting that to a polygon model would be just the start of your problems - the process is never straightforward, successful conversion between formats generally requires fluency in both applications and a full understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of each. Almost every nurbs part would require different export tesselation settings to achieve the right balance of enough polygons to define the shape but not so many as to overwhelm the system. Modelled detail like threads on bolts and studs would probably overwhelm anyway, so you'd have to re-work all that as bump or displacement maps in your poly model. The original application probably made extensive use of instancing, clones and proxies for repeated elements like screws and bolts to keep the file size down, you'd lose that optimization during conversion.

How would you see inside it? By means of physical cut-away booleans, or render booleans, or peeling away geometry, or changing opacity? Each of those would require a different approach and the way the model is set up would be quite different for each.

I think models for a project like this need to be made specifically for the project. Optimization is everything, keeping one eye on the bigger picture all the time, adding detail only where you need it. You simply don't need 100% detail on every part because you won't see it all, there's no way to see every detail of every part. You only need enough detail for it to look right in the scene, and that's a lot less detail than you think.

In my opinion the only people that care for 3D vehicles detailed to the last nut and bolt and with working parts are real vehicle constructors Though I doubt these models can be bought.

Glen - Think I get what you're saying here. In artistic terms you're talking about having actual "weight" rather than being a "representation". The latter being what most models are, either because of technical constraints such as polycount for 3D models, cost or time in real world models.

Which is a viewpoint that isn't unknown in the non virtual modelling world, indeed it's especially commonplace with plastic kit and trainset modellers. So much so theres a massive market for aftermarket parts - anything from ejector seats to 1/76 scale rivet heads - to cater for this.

It's also not unsual to hear such modellers express this outlook as "even though I can't see it I know it's there". Which, to a limited extent, is something I do myself sometimes in both my real and my virtual creations.

So yes the answer is it's possible if you could accept and overcome the technical limitaions, but that also comes with a question for you.

How much would you prepared to pay for something like this to be created in 3D?