I'm just not getting the kind of toon results I'm really looking for, so I've ordered a cheap Wacom and Manga Studio so I can, hopefully, paint in my own outlines and colors. So can I even call my work "Poser art" if the poser part is all covered up with my own paint layers?

I know realism is big with a lot of Poser fans, but, IMHO, that kind of results in every Poser render looking pretty much like every other one. I thumb through the gallery and keep thinking to myself "Yup, I've seen that one before." I really want to do something different. So does that mean I will be tarred and feathered and run of out town. I hope not. But I plan to start using a Poser render the way an artist uses an underpainting, and bury it under visible layers I paint on myself.

I tried drawing and painting with a mouse, but yikes! That just doesn't work. (Many, many years ago my daughter, a commercial artist, told me over and over "Dad, a mouse is not a drawing tool." I should have listened.)

So will this make me an outcast here? hehe.

Most professional renders are hand painted to some extent (post-worked), so why should you feel guilty for doing the same?

Ignore the purists. The only time you should be restricted to only what the render engine produces, is if you're entering some kind of render contest that doesn't allow post work, or making product renders for a content store and need to show exactly what the item will render. Otherwise, do whatever you need to do to achieve the end results you're looking for. Too much time spent on trying to get the perfect render just results in wasted time that could have been spent on the next image in the sequence, or the next project. Poser is just a tool. Some people only use it as a reference for hand drawing their poses in perspective and never bother with materials or renders.

This webinar is about an artist that used poser and photoshop to produce a graphic novel called Anomaly, using basically the exact process you describe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqDY9_dYOVY

http://bloodstonemage.deviantart.com/art/X-X-R-RorrKonn-s-Shatter-Babe-Heart-Solitude-Alone-522912634

made with Poser ,Manga Studio 5 ,Wacom intuos 5 small. not the pro Wacom.

I make what I want .don't care what any one else thinks.

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/atomic-hell/2354442/

it's a painted over 3D mesh in Gimp.

with app's like

http://www.topazlabs.com/

you can get a lot of cool effects including converting a render in to a comic/painted look.

Poser originally was just made to be a digital mannequin for artists, not as a stand alone art tool. It's all good to use Poser as you see fit. You will be pleased with Manga Studio 5, (just got it and am VERY pleased). Between that and Poser you will get what you want. PLUS the next release of Poser promises to deliver even more by way of comic work.

What they said. It's your art. You can utilize any tool or method, unless there's a specific reason otherwise (which ambientshade pointed out)... in fact in many competitions I've encountered you would be at a severe disadvantage not utilizing post. Sometimes things just don't need a lot of post though, other than some compositing and corrections.

AmbientShade posted at 7:53PM Mon, 05 October 2015 - #4232415

Most professional renders are hand painted to some extent (post-worked), so why should you feel guilty for doing the same?

Ignore the purists. The only time you should be restricted to only what the render engine produces, is if you're entering some kind of render contest that doesn't allow post work, or making product renders for a content store and need to show exactly what the item will render. Otherwise, do whatever you need to do to achieve the end results you're looking for. Too much time spent on trying to get the perfect render just results in wasted time that could have been spent on the next image in the sequence, or the next project. Poser is just a tool. Some people only use it as a reference for hand drawing their poses in perspective and never bother with materials or renders.

This webinar is about an artist that used poser and photoshop to produce a graphic novel called Anomaly, using basically the exact process you describe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqDY9_dYOVY

Thanks for that link. Some real stunning work there, but I don't understand how he did what he did. Something about inflating and reversing normals, but I can't make any sense out of it. I sure love the results though, so I'll keep trying to figure out what the heck he was talking about.

RorrKonn posted at 9:23PM Mon, 05 October 2015 - #4232436

http://bloodstonemage.deviantart.com/art/X-X-R-RorrKonn-s-Shatter-Babe-Heart-Solitude-Alone-522912634

made with Poser ,Manga Studio 5 ,Wacom intuos 5 small. not the pro Wacom.

I make what I want .don't care what any one else thinks.

That's a very nice image. :)

fiziwig2 posted at 11:08PM Mon, 05 October 2015 - #4232453

Thanks for that link. Some real stunning work there, but I don't understand how he did what he did. Something about inflating and reversing normals, but I can't make any sense out of it. I sure love the results though, so I'll keep trying to figure out what the heck he was talking about.

No prob. That was actually the wrong link. I meant to give this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heSn6iVB__M - it's an earlier webinar from before the game dev release, but it's the same artist - Brian Haberlin. He gives a few brief samples of what filters and settings he applies in photoshop - which should be relatively easy to replicate in manga studio if you know what to look for.

As for the method he's using in the most recent version, regarding normals, I think he's using a python script. That's the only thing I can figure since he doesn't actually show how he does it (of course). I can't find anything in Poser that allows you to reverse the normals. But basically from what I gather, there are two meshes present per model. The 2nd mesh is black with its normals reversed so that you only see the outer edge. With the entire model being black and with backface culling on in the render settings, you get the holding lines around the model. Then the model is scaled up and down via a master parameter depending on how thick or thin you want those lines to be. That duplicate reversed model is conformed to the first model, so that it follows posing just as any conforming clothing would. If I could figure out how to reverse normals in Poser without running a python script - or if I knew which script to run, even - then I could do a test/demonstration to see if my theory is correct.

They mentioned doing a future webinar showing the exact process, but it's been nearly a year now and Steve Cooper is no longer with SmithMicro, so who knows if that webinar will ever happen.

At any rate, here is a quick example of just using the toon shading in pp2014, without all the fancy normals work. It's not as crisp and pretty as the examples in that vid, but for line art to then paint in photoshop or manga studio, along with some clean-up work, it should still be suitable.

If you want more lines and less shadow then just adjust the intensity of your light. Also, you could do multiple renders at different light intensities and then layer them in your paint program at various levels of opacity, erase some bits here and there, add thicker lines in spots, etc., to get the desired look.

AmbientShade posted at 11:39PM Mon, 05 October 2015 - #4232472

fiziwig2 posted at 11:08PM Mon, 05 October 2015 - #4232453

Thanks for that link. Some real stunning work there, but I don't understand how he did what he did. Something about inflating and reversing normals, but I can't make any sense out of it. I sure love the results though, so I'll keep trying to figure out what the heck he was talking about.

No prob. That was actually the wrong link. I meant to give this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heSn6iVB__M - it's an earlier webinar from before the game dev release, but it's the same artist - Brian Haberlin. He gives a few brief samples of what filters and settings he applies in photoshop - which should be relatively easy to replicate in manga studio if you know what to look for.

As for the method he's using in the most recent version, regarding normals, I think he's using a python script. That's the only thing I can figure since he doesn't actually show how he does it (of course). I can't find anything in Poser that allows you to reverse the normals.

Thanks for that new link. I'll check it out. As for reversing normals, I discovered that you can export a figure as a 3ds object and then immediately import it back in and tick the "flip normals" box on the import dialog. I got that far, but I'm having trouble conforming the second, slightly bigger, figure to the original. It looks pretty good as long as I don't change the pose, because I don't have them conformed yet.

I've been watching all kinds of Manga Studio tutorials on YouTube, and I think I should be able to figure it out. I use Paintshop Pro, but I used to do some Photoshop stuff at work before I retired. Between those and the tutorials I'm pretty sure I can figure it all out. Eventually. I'm presently trying to do some cel shading in Paintshop Pro, but drawing with a mouse is a pain. My cheap (little) Wacom is supposed to arrive later this week.

That image looks good. Is that a render, or a preview? FWIW, I've experimented with copying figure textures and making a copy as a grey scale image so I can do a full render in B&W. That's looks surprisingly good too. I also discovered how to export a preview as a large hi-res image by setting the render dimension high and the creating a 1-frame "movie" in preview mode. That puts out the contents of the preview window, but at really high resolution so my lines are smoother.

It's a preview render actually. You get it by choosing 'Antialias Document' in the Render menu in Poser, and it shows as a render in the render pallet. From there you can export the image. Unfortunately it is limited to the size of your document window. But you can then turn it into a vector in a paint program and resize it if you need a larger size. I know Illustrator does this, I'm not sure if manga studio does but it should. You can then adjust line weights as needed.

Instead of creating B&W textures you could desaturate the color image in manga or paintshop then adjust the contrast levels to get the shadows you need.

I'm still learning manga studio so I'm not much help there. I got EX4 last year off newegg for $15 but it's taken me all year to get around to messing with it. I do most of my 2D work in photoshop cs4 and some in illustrator, but I'm hearing from a lot of 2D artists that manga is better than photoshop in a lot of ways, especially when it comes to printing comics, so I'm working on figuring it out.

As for exporting and re-importing with flipped normals, you would have to re-rig the imported mesh. That's why it's not conforming to the base figure. I'm not sure if the groups would remain the same that way. If you do retain the groups then it shouldn't be too difficult to re-rig since you're just copying the original rig to the 2nd mesh but it might be a hassle getting all the morphs to work correctly. I'll have to experiment a bit and see how difficult that would be, but I was looking for a way to reverse the normals inside Poser. Doesn't seem possible without a script.

ETA: derp... It's in the grouping tool menu. But you have to reverse the normals on each group, I think....

The Official Smith Micro Manga Studio Forum

http://forum.runtimedna.com/forumdisplay.php?330-Manga-Studio-Forum

For strait up drawing n painting MS5 is killer. EX helps with pages.

MS5 does not have filters like TopazLabs.Photoshop or Gimp

fiziwig2 posted at 2:02AM Tue, 06 October 2015 - #4232463

RorrKonn posted at 9:23PM Mon, 05 October 2015 - #4232436

http://bloodstonemage.deviantart.com/art/X-X-R-RorrKonn-s-Shatter-Babe-Heart-Solitude-Alone-522912634

made with Poser ,Manga Studio 5 ,Wacom intuos 5 small. not the pro Wacom.

I make what I want .don't care what any one else thinks.

That's a very nice image. :)

Thanks :)

I've been doing what the OP described for 15 years. Confident use of a drawing tablet is essential as well as familiarity with whatever 2D program one uses. Here is a sketchy illustration I did few weeks ago. Poser and Photoshop.

And another that features a scenery.

AmbientShade posted at 1:15AM Tue, 06 October 2015 - #4232476

It's a preview render actually. You get it by choosing 'Antialias Document' in the Render menu in Poser, and it shows as a render in the render pallet. From there you can export the image. Unfortunately it is limited to the size of your document window.

It's possible to get a render in preview mode at any size you want. Set up your pose, then:

go to Render > Render Settings and on the dialog click the size button on the lower left and set your desired output render size, like 6000 x 4000 if you want really smooth lines.

Then go to Animation > Make Movie and on the movie setup dialog:

set "Time Span" to Start:1 End:1 so it will render only one frame. format: Image Files renderer: Preview tick anti-alias resolution scale: full (6000 x 4000 in the example above)

It will write 1 image file at the render size you set on the render setting dialog.

At 6000x4000 resolution it will take a while to render, even in preview mode, but it will be a very, VERY smooth preview render.

12rounds posted at 1:32AM Tue, 06 October 2015 - #4232482

I've been doing what the OP described for 15 years. Confident use of a drawing tablet is essential as well as familiarity with whatever 2D program one uses. Here is a sketchy illustration I did few weeks ago. Poser and Photoshop.

Those are super! Very nicely done. Thanks for sharing them.

Thank you. One additional thing: once you get confident in tracing lines or painting over a render, you gradually start to learn how to modify and extend the underlying render. Soon you'll find that you can draw on your clothing items, accessories, hair, beard, backgrounds etc. from scratch. As an added bonus you'll develop a style of your own that makes the end result an extension of you: I think that is the most important thing of all.

Can't stand purists myself. I figure that if it's legal, it's legitimate. As long as you aren't stealing someone else's work, you should do whatever you want. Also, I agree with AS. I don't think any professional will show off a straight render, unless he/she is displaying a 3d model. Photographers are the same. Not doing postwork for digital photography is like letting Wal-Mart develop your film instead of learning how to use the darkroom.

I've been practicing a new technique for painting over renders. A few contrast adjustments or HDR processing to my renders usually satisfies me, as far as renders go. But lately I've been wanting a look that is painted, with visible brush strokes. There are plenty of filters to add such strokes to an image, but they always look fake to me, like no human would ever paint that way. So now I just actually paint over renders. I've become very picky about what kind of photoshop brushes I use. :D

For a large image of about 9000 x 5000 pixels, it takes FOREVER if it's detailed. But I find it almost like meditating, and painting like this is positively addictive, so I don't mind. Also, I can render an image with very low render settings at a preview size (takes about a minute, with IDL, usually) and then just enlarge to whatever size before painting. May need to sharpen up the image a bit first, and lots of details may be lost. But I've discovered that if you try to paint in all those details over a full sized high quality render, the end result looks exactly like a render unless you look at it very close-up. So, for me, upsizing works just fine.

Here's a small cut-out of one I've been working on. The actual image includes a lot more scenery and is much larger. Still need to work on the details -- her hair looks stringy and needs to be painted over again, for instance, and the shadows under her nose are too intense and so on. But I kinda like the overall effect.

Oh, and I actually decided to come out of lurk mode to note that you can reverse normals with Poser Pro's grouping tool. :)

moriador posted at 11:50AM Tue, 06 October 2015 - #4232489

... and painting like this is positively addictive,

Well said.

moriador posted at 12:18PM Tue, 06 October 2015 - #4232489

I've been practicing a new technique for painting over renders. A few contrast adjustments or HDR processing to my renders usually satisfies me, as far as renders go. But lately I've been wanting a look that is painted, with visible brush strokes. There are plenty of filters to add such strokes to an image, but they always look fake to me, like no human would ever paint that way. So now I just actually paint over renders. I've become very picky about what kind of photoshop brushes I use. :D

For a large image of about 9000 x 5000 pixels, it takes FOREVER if it's detailed. But I find it almost like meditating, and painting like this is positively addictive, so I don't mind. Also, I can render an image with very low render settings at a preview size (takes about a minute, with IDL, usually) and then just enlarge to whatever size before painting. May need to sharpen up the image a bit first, and lots of details may be lost. But I've discovered that if you try to paint in all those details over a full sized high quality render, the end result looks exactly like a render unless you look at it very close-up. So, for me, upsizing works just fine.

I've never had the patience to wait for long renders like some do, just for a render to finish. If it takes more than half an hour I get rather frustrated and even that is pushing it. Some spend all day or more while a render cooks. And then just to find that something didn't turn out right so you have to try to correct it and re-render. Another day or more. Where is the art in that? The art of waiting I suppose. I'd be happier just painting it myself. Even if it takes the same amount of time or longer, at least I'm doing something, and getting in the experience points in the process. I once waited nearly 20 hours for a poser 5 render, just to find the book my character was holding looked more like a bag of popcorn.

Nice to see you posting again Moriador. :)

fiziwig2 posted at 12:34PM Tue, 06 October 2015 - #4232483

AmbientShade posted at 1:15AM Tue, 06 October 2015 - #4232476

It's a preview render actually. You get it by choosing 'Antialias Document' in the Render menu in Poser, and it shows as a render in the render pallet. From there you can export the image. Unfortunately it is limited to the size of your document window.

It's possible to get a render in preview mode at any size you want. Set up your pose, then:

go to Render > Render Settings and on the dialog click the size button on the lower left and set your desired output render size, like 6000 x 4000 if you want really smooth lines.

Then go to Animation > Make Movie and on the movie setup dialog:

set "Time Span" to Start:1 End:1 so it will render only one frame. format: Image Files renderer: Preview tick anti-alias resolution scale: full (6000 x 4000 in the example above)

It will write 1 image file at the render size you set on the render setting dialog.

At 6000x4000 resolution it will take a while to render, even in preview mode, but it will be a very, VERY smooth preview render.

Hah! 10+ years in Poser I never thought of going through the animation menu to render a preview. Thanks for the tip.

moriador posted at 11:51AM Tue, 06 October 2015 - #4232489

Can't stand purists myself. I figure that if it's legal, it's legitimate. As long as you aren't stealing someone else's work, you should do whatever you want. Also, I agree with AS. I don't think any professional will show off a straight render, unless he/she is displaying a 3d model. Photographers are the same. Not doing postwork for digital photography is like letting Wal-Mart develop your film instead of learning how to use the darkroom. ---snip---

Very nice result! That completely eliminates that plastic look of a render and makes it feel more organic and natural. Excellent work!

AmbientShade posted at 11:54AM Tue, 06 October 2015 - #4232550

Hah! 10+ years in Poser I never thought of going through the animation menu to render a preview. Thanks for the tip.

You're welcome. I saw it in a YouTube Poser tutorial, but I don't remember which one. I've watched so many of them!!!

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/?uid=257620

The majority of my stuff is just a render of a nekkid vicky . The rest is done in photoshop and painter

Im all for painting and being creative :0) I originally picked it up because I was too cheap to keep buying 3d stuff that I may or may not find fitting for a particular idea. I find it very relaxing..I can seriously sit here for hours just painting.. dont worry about what others think.. do what makes you happy!

Thanks, Fiziwig2!

Shane, letting renders cook for several hours is probably the main reason I used to post in forums as much as I did. :D But after extensive testing, I found that, even if I never intended to paint over them, I didn't need insanely high quality settings because I honestly could see very little difference. That cut the five hour renders down to about an hour or so. Now they're at less than 15 minutes (even with 72 leafy trees and IDL). But the painting doesn't take 20 hours. More like 20 days.

The great thing about digital painting is that you don't have to finish a painting before you start another. It's also perhaps the worst thing about it. I have something like 150 half painted renders. I keep thinking that maybe in a couple of years, if I chip away at them every day, I'll have them done. Only problem with that is that the more I do it, the better I get at certain things, which makes me want to redo all the earlier ones. :D Ah! Such first world problems, eh?

chevybabe25, I can sit and paint for hours -- and often do, without even realizing how much time has passed. I'm only stopped by the fact that my hand cramps after about three hours. edit: Oh, and nice gallery! Great hair on those girls!

chevybabe25 posted at 9:32PM Tue, 06 October 2015 - #4232623

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/?uid=257620

The majority of my stuff is just a render of a nekkid vicky . The rest is done in photoshop and painter

Im all for painting and being creative :0) I originally picked it up because I was too cheap to keep buying 3d stuff that I may or may not find fitting for a particular idea. I find it very relaxing..I can seriously sit here for hours just painting.. dont worry about what others think.. do what makes you happy!

Awesome painting! I was starting to think along the same lines, but I haven't been brave enough to try it yet. I still need "training wheels" in the form of clothing and props.

Thanks fiziwig and moriador!

Be brave and make the plunge - I bet you will enjoy it! I have written several tutorials over the years on how I paint stuff ..so heres where i stick a shameless plug for my store.. https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/?uid=257620 Sadly some of my tutorials have gone into clearance and disappeared over the years - but there are several that are still here- after almost ten years

fiziwig2 posted at 12:05AM Wed, 07 October 2015 - #4232643

Awesome painting! I was starting to think along the same lines, but I haven't been brave enough to try it yet. I still need "training wheels" in the form of clothing and props.

This is where reference pics are your best friends. And, lucky us, we live in the time of reference pic availability paradise. If you Google for something like .... reference pics clothing .... and look at the image results, you'll get hundreds of examples from the very simple to the very complex.

Edit: Mind you, I still render content myself, rather than paint it all, probably because I never intended to paint over renders, and just started doing so recently. I need a lot of practice in that regard.