Sales figures and downloads will provide numbers on sales figures and downloads, not on actually installed data.

On piracy: crack programs simply remove the phone home feature. But a phone home feature will chase away simpler workarounds of like changing one's date&time settings to trick the program on how long it has left on demo times, for instance. So it won't help against "advanced" piracy, but it will against "casual" piracy.

I still think it's not worth the trouble it gives on actual paying customers, but again - I don't have all the intel and knowledge about the entire program and market to know the pros and cons.

Azath posted at 10:47AM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378505

Guess we will see if they keep it in PP12 and stepp into SM's shoes

@ Wolf , it does not prevent Piracy it provokes Piracy . If you run your legal licence it will be affected from the call home it will even periodically send a lock to get all SM versions down even if they have Permanent licences. If you run a unregistriert versions there servers will not be able to get into your system and leave you alone , so there goes honest people!

That's hokum. Locking my door when I go out does not provoke people into wanting to break in. I believe that people who pirate things, including software, are already inclined to do so, if for no other reason than to feed their own egos by proving that they can pirate it. Same reasons some people hack and steal.

EClark1894 posted at 11:35AM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378522

Azath posted at 10:47AM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378505

Guess we will see if they keep it in PP12 and stepp into SM's shoes

@ Wolf , it does not prevent Piracy it provokes Piracy . If you run your legal licence it will be affected from the call home it will even periodically send a lock to get all SM versions down even if they have Permanent licences. If you run a unregistriert versions there servers will not be able to get into your system and leave you alone , so there goes honest people!

That's hokum. Locking my door when I go out does not provoke people into wanting to break in. I believe that people who pirate things, including software, are already inclined to do so, if for no other reason than to feed their own egos by proving that they can pirate it. Same reasons some people hack and steal.

The point is the phone home facilitates piracy. My legal copy of Windows 7 at 1 point started giving me the not legit screen. I called Microsoft and they gave me a new activation code, they also told me that my serial number (which I purchased at Newegg) had been used over 10,000 times and that all the pirates had to do (we have continuous internet connectivity now) was just locate a running instance and copy the serial number. They weren't surprised at all.

movida posted at 1:22PM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378541

EClark1894 posted at 11:35AM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378522

Azath posted at 10:47AM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378505

Guess we will see if they keep it in PP12 and stepp into SM's shoes

@ Wolf , it does not prevent Piracy it provokes Piracy . If you run your legal licence it will be affected from the call home it will even periodically send a lock to get all SM versions down even if they have Permanent licences. If you run a unregistriert versions there servers will not be able to get into your system and leave you alone , so there goes honest people!

That's hokum. Locking my door when I go out does not provoke people into wanting to break in. I believe that people who pirate things, including software, are already inclined to do so, if for no other reason than to feed their own egos by proving that they can pirate it. Same reasons some people hack and steal.

The point is the phone home facilitates piracy. My legal copy of Windows 7 at 1 point started giving me the not legit screen. I called Microsoft and they gave me a new activation code, they also told me that my serial number (which I purchased at Newegg) had been used over 10,000 times and that all the pirates had to do (we have continuous internet connectivity now) was just locate a running instance and copy the serial number. They weren't surprised at all.

Okay, then, how does it make it easier to commit piracy?

I'm guessing that "locate a running instance" means that they copied the serial number BECAUSE the software was online.

EClark1894 posted at 1:00PM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378550

movida posted at 1:22PM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378541

EClark1894 posted at 11:35AM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378522

Azath posted at 10:47AM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378505

Guess we will see if they keep it in PP12 and stepp into SM's shoes

@ Wolf , it does not prevent Piracy it provokes Piracy . If you run your legal licence it will be affected from the call home it will even periodically send a lock to get all SM versions down even if they have Permanent licences. If you run a unregistriert versions there servers will not be able to get into your system and leave you alone , so there goes honest people!

That's hokum. Locking my door when I go out does not provoke people into wanting to break in. I believe that people who pirate things, including software, are already inclined to do so, if for no other reason than to feed their own egos by proving that they can pirate it. Same reasons some people hack and steal.

The point is the phone home facilitates piracy. My legal copy of Windows 7 at 1 point started giving me the not legit screen. I called Microsoft and they gave me a new activation code, they also told me that my serial number (which I purchased at Newegg) had been used over 10,000 times and that all the pirates had to do (we have continuous internet connectivity now) was just locate a running instance and copy the serial number. They weren't surprised at all.

Okay, then, how does it make it easier to commit piracy?

They don't need to generate a serial number that will read as "legit" - they get yours. They do a little port surfing and see what machine they can get into, check what software it's running and copy away :)

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 1:02PM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378552

I'm guessing that "locate a running instance" means that they copied the serial number BECAUSE the software was online.

They don't copy the serial BECAUSE the software is online, it just gives them access while they're port surfing. If your software didn't have to phone home periodically you wouldn't be exposed.

Now consider how many phone home apps people are running on a given machine. A pattern is generated. It's easily identified.

I don't know. That's kinda like saying having a keyhole makes it easier for a crook to pick your lock.

EClark1894 posted at 4:23PM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378584

I don't know. That's kinda like saying having a keyhole makes it easier for a crook to pick your lock.

Believe what you want

EClark1894 posted at 4:27PM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378584

I don't know. That's kinda like saying having a keyhole makes it easier for a crook to pick your lock.

That's exactly what it does, therefore not having the keyhole prevents the crook from picking your lock

EClark1894 posted at 5:32PM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378522

Azath posted at 10:47AM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378505

Guess we will see if they keep it in PP12 and stepp into SM's shoes

@ Wolf , it does not prevent Piracy it provokes Piracy . If you run your legal licence it will be affected from the call home it will even periodically send a lock to get all SM versions down even if they have Permanent licences. If you run a unregistriert versions there servers will not be able to get into your system and leave you alone , so there goes honest people!

That's hokum. Locking my door when I go out does not provoke people into wanting to break in. I believe that people who pirate things, including software, are already inclined to do so, if for no other reason than to feed their own egos by proving that they can pirate it. Same reasons some people hack and steal.

That's it in a nutshell - a thief is a thief. Same thing as people who have more money than they know what to do with who go out shoplifting.

They will always try to justify it, but it's still theft.

Retrowave posted at 6:23PM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378586

EClark1894 posted at 4:27PM Sat, 01 February 2020 - #4378584

I don't know. That's kinda like saying having a keyhole makes it easier for a crook to pick your lock.

That's exactly what it does, therefore not having the keyhole prevents the crook from picking your lock

Or you, from opening your own door.

TO DRAG THIS BACK TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC...

@ Jennblake: Has there been given any thought to a stripped-down "starter" version of Poser that the thread's OP's friend could avail? It really does seem like a natural of a product.

As I said, back on page 1 of this thread. Poser comes with a 21 day free trial.

And then it's a couple of hundred dollars. So strip out some of the bells and whistles and sell it for a reduced price, like Photoshop Elements.

SeanMartin posted at 4:19PM Tue, 04 February 2020 - #4379038

And then it's a couple of hundred dollars. So strip out some of the bells and whistles and sell it for a reduced price, like Photoshop Elements.

Someone recently asked about Poser Debut, apparently it's been discontinued.

I never used Debut, but if it's stripped down, won't you have to upgrade to get full function?

EClark1894 posted at 5:19PM Tue, 04 February 2020 - #4379061

I never used Debut, but if it's stripped down, won't you have to upgrade to get full function?

And that would be the whole idea: take out things like the cloth room, the hair room, and the face room; maybe remove the advanced side of the Materials room and Superfly capabilities, so you wind up with a basic but usable version for most rendering needs for a hobbyist. Sell it for thirty bucks. At the end of, say, two or three months, give the buyer the option to upgrade to the full program (probably with an "unlock" that would turn on all these missing capabilities) or keep it as is. Let the buyer decide if it's worth sticking with the basic one or moving on to a more fully-featured version. And then market the hell out of it.

So all you want them to do in Poser is render?

EClark1894 posted at 6:18PM Tue, 04 February 2020 - #4379064

So all you want them to do in Poser is render?

Basically, yeah: position your hot-yo-mama, set your lights, hit the render button, and marvel at the art you made. C'mon, EClark, that's all a lot of people are interested in doing. They dont care about the difference between Firefly and Superfly. They probably dont even bother changing materials because most vendors have it done for them. They just want something they can use quick and dirty. A few months down the road, some of them will say, Hey, what else can this thing do? — and they'll consider upgrading to the full thing. But we're talking a basic, bare-bones version that doesnt cost two hundred bucks and can get more people trying this thing out. So why not provide a version that allows for that?

It's worth remembering that we never got confirmation on Bondware's plans for this. For all we know, they only tucked 2014 GameDev + Poser 11 + Poser 11 Pro into one Poser 11 Pro thing because otherwise they'd need to tamper with three different programs super quickly to issue those updates in time.

So we don't know if they plan to keep it one single version or more.

People don't really grow unless they challenge themselves. Seems to me limiting the software will lead them to search elsewhere to learn. They may think well is this all there is?

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 6:40PM Tue, 04 February 2020 - #4379069

It's worth remembering that we never got confirmation on Bondware's plans for this. For all we know, they only tucked 2014 GameDev + Poser 11 + Poser 11 Pro into one Poser 11 Pro thing because otherwise they'd need to tamper with three different programs super quickly to issue those updates in time.

So we don't know if they plan to keep it one single version or more.

I don't know about game dev but P11 and 11Pro were identical. The additional features were unlocked with your serial key. This was no secret as SM made it clear in their forums multiple times.

Removing superfly and other features like the cloth room for a cheap version of the app would make a lot of the newer content unusable in that version. Pretty sure that's why Rosity consolidated everything into one version, for simplicity (and lowered the cost). No more confusion in the forums etc., for people that can't use this or that feature because they didn't buy the right version, then get frustrated and quit all together. And there's a 21 day fully functional free trial that anyone is able to download and play with. That's plenty of time to decide whether you want to buy the full version or not.

AmbientShade posted at 8:00PM Tue, 04 February 2020 - #4379072

I don't know about game dev but P11 and 11Pro were identical. The additional features were unlocked with your serial key. This was no secret as SM made it clear in their forums multiple times.

Don't quote me on this, but I have a strong feeling that they wanted to get functions like Copy Morphs From in everyone's hands. Which I very much appreciate, it makes creating stuff and making extra things functional for everyone much easier.

AmbientShade posted at 7:18PM Tue, 04 February 2020 - #4379072

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 6:40PM Tue, 04 February 2020 - #4379069

It's worth remembering that we never got confirmation on Bondware's plans for this. For all we know, they only tucked 2014 GameDev + Poser 11 + Poser 11 Pro into one Poser 11 Pro thing because otherwise they'd need to tamper with three different programs super quickly to issue those updates in time.

So we don't know if they plan to keep it one single version or more.

I don't know about game dev but P11 and 11Pro were identical. The additional features were unlocked with your serial key. This was no secret as SM made it clear in their forums multiple times.

Removing superfly and other features like the cloth room for a cheap version of the app would make a lot of the newer content unusable in that version. Pretty sure that's why Rosity consolidated everything into one version, for simplicity (and lowered the cost). No more confusion in the forums etc., for people that can't use this or that feature because they didn't buy the right version, then get frustrated and quit all together. And there's a 21 day fully functional free trial that anyone is able to download and play with. That's plenty of time to decide whether you want to buy the full version or not.

This is just me, but I would prefer a 30 day free trial.

EClark1894 posted at 7:39PM Tue, 04 February 2020 - #4379070

People don't really grow unless they challenge themselves. Seems to me limiting the software will lead them to search elsewhere to learn. They may think well is this all there is?

I daresay most users dont want to grow. They want to make some pretty pictures to show their friends or maybe to enjoy in the middle of the night when no one's looking. :-) That's all they want. They dont give a gosh darn about cloth dynamics or nodes or any of that, so why force it on them with a program more expensive than they really want?

If it's going to bring more people to this program, then I say go for it. Otherwise, the market will just shrink more and more. If that's the future you want for this thing, okay, so be it. But I say open the door and let them do what they want to do — and if it's just 43 versions of Naked LaFemme in her Secret Bedroom, fine.

A hobby is a hobby is a hobby. It's made for you to enjoy and relax. "Growing" at it isn't a requirement.

Warning: rant on, after staying away from the forums for a few weeks but following recent threads.

Well, if you really want to kill Poser, do what SeanMartin suggests. Lower end graphics programs are for more than just female in temple with sword--that is so 1990s it's not even funny. Poser is used for many things that this myopic look at the galleries here does not even start to cover. DAZ is cornering the market for 'good clean fun' images because most of the stuff they released lately as not hookerwear (and Hivewire's DAZ versions releasing support that very, very much). People come here and that other site for that.

soapbox on And I still do not see the 'this is the new home of Poser' vibe on this site when you first see it. Again, because this is primarily is still a content brokerage, most of the paid ads and featured stuff is for DAZ figures, tendered under the exact same lights, looking the exact same. soapbox off

Poser needs the 21st century render engine, the new figures and as close as possible to be able to produce clean content-filled images, and something resembling a modern game-engine capability if it wants to remain competitive

People DO want to learn when they get software. Even old farts like me.

Did Elements kill Photoshop? Nope. It brought more users to the table.

If people want to learn more, they'll do it. Hell, I started with a bare bones 3D modelling program thirty years ago, and now I work with FormZ and StudioMax. But there are plenty of folks out there who simply dont want to. They want something simple and easy and provides immediate results. It's hardly myopic to say this market doesnt exist: look at any of the galleries — here or anywhere else 3D art is found — and you'll find plenty of people who took Figure A, Pose B, Lighting Set Up C, and Hit Render Button, because that's what they want to do.

And if you notice, I didnt mention NVIATWAS. :-) I doubt many of the newer users would even understand that. But NLFIHSB? Oh yeah, they'd get that.

And of course Poser is used for more than just that. I have some 5500 cartoons and countless book illustrations and a whopping cool portfolio that have come from it, and to be terribly immodest for a moment, it's damn good work. But that's just because I decided to go further than the NVIATWAS renders. A lot of people dont. They're perfectly content as is. But to expect that everyone will want to become a Master Poser User is about as silly as saying anyone who picks up Photoshop wants to be an Accredited Photoshop Genius. Like I said, I doubt most users could care about nodes or how well Poser works with other rendering engines or the intricacies of the Cloth Room. So let's not pretend that they're all out there wondering how best to set their Superfly specifications or the subtle nuance of lighting. They're not. A bare bones version is what the OP's friend wanted. She couldnt get it and didnt want to spend 250 — even with the free trial. So she dropped it and went with Studio. If that's what you guys want to see happen more and more... well, there you are. Hope it works for ya.

Off to get some illustration work done. Y'all have a nice day, eh?

From what I recall, the OP's friend made her decision before the Free Trial was even mentioned, so she never evaluated it. He can clarify.

My concern about a cut down version of Poser selling for about 30usd is two fold.

Firstly, how much do you cut it down? If you remove too many features users are going to feel disappointed with it's limitations, for example finding they can't use any dynamic clothing if the cloth room is removed. If you don't cut it down enough, you take away the motivation for people to upgrade. While Bondware/Rendo differs from SM in that they are looking at content sales as well as Poser sales this still doesn't seem a great idea.

Secondly, I don't see how trying to sell a program for 30usd that does less than its free competition is going to work, I don't see what its appeal would be.

IMHO Bondware was right to to consolidate poser down to one version.

It makes support alot easier.

In the context the OP's query I do not see how a stripped down $30 dollar version of poser is an attractive alternative to Free a full version of Daz studio with Iray.

The "Click load and render" user can just as easily ignore the advance features of his /her FREE Daz studio.

Conduct a Hoarding Raid on all of the freebie sites for starter content and click load& render from pre-sets without paying $30 USD.

And if, or when, they decide they want more than that , their only addtional cost would be curating more content ,on an as needed basis, from the Daz or Renderosity marketplace.

Not paying Daz again to unlock,Dforce,IRay the Graph editor /Dope sheet the Motion clip mixer,the transfer utility for rigging clothing with three mouse clicks or the FBX export options to send figures to other programs as those features will have been available to them for tinkering all along.

Look at what is happening in the 3D/CG software market in 2020. Features are where the competition is occuring. and the Hobby market is a tough place to try and sell software without very competitive features.?

If You do not go subscription(Like Reallusion has not) then you better have attractive,modern features and cross application export options to other High end Industry programs like RL's unreal4 live bridge/link.?

Or you need to be so far ahead of everyone else in features that the industry pros will keep buying your licenses& support contracts (Like SideFX Houdini)?

Or be a free program with foundation support (Blender 2.8x)?

Or be using a Loss leader business model like Daz where you have a profitable content store to offset your Development costs of your free program.

Tough market?

I've used trial offer software before, and frankly I don't particularly like them. Some of the reasons are rather straightforward, for me. I couldn't save something I had spent a week or more working on, there were ridiculous watermarks on any finished work and I wouldn't be able to save or remove the watermark unless I paid for the full program. I don't even remember what program that was, but no, I don't think I bought it.