We know it's easier, but is it better to use "canned" poses or to pose your own figures? Is it ethical to buy and use poses for a figure?

How reliable are the poses?
Do they give you what you want?
Are they exaggerated? Do they go beyond natural human limitations?
Would your wardrobe comply with the poses?

My take on it, use canned poses as a starting point and modify it until you attain something you feel is unique for your scene. Especially, if you totally suck at posing. Ethical? I think it's perfectly fine to buy and use, that's what the product is for.

Creating lots of poses my self, the answer is a clear yes :D

On a more serious note, I see a lot of benefits in doing so and not really a lot against. Obviously it depends on what you are trying to achieve or make. If you just need to render an image once in awhile, it's probably not worth it.

But for me personally, I like creating comics or stories, which need a lot of frames and pages to tell them. So having to create one pose after another takes a very long time and on top of that you still have to make all the other stuff in the scene as well. So being able to save some time using premade poses save you a lot of time.

At least the way I work, and I mostly use my own poses now, since the whole library is around 600+ unique poses, so have quite a few to choose from. Funny enough though, despite having so many, I actually rarely use them directly as I created them, but will find the pose that matches what fits the best and then Ill adjust it, and even using them like that, is so much faster than having to make them from scratch.

To make a pose for me from start until I save it to the library, can take between 15-45 minutes and even longer if its couple pose. Personally I enjoy making poses, but when im in the mood for making a story, I really don't want to have spending to much time on it and just want to get the story moving along.

So to me its not really any different than buying a piece of clothing, you could spend the time making your own, but in some cases, its just nice not having to worry about it and just get things moving.

In the end for me its about saving time and having fun and the faster you can get to the end result of what you are imagining the better, I think.

Taco Girl?

I almost never used poses exactly as they are, and I won't pay a lot for them. But I do like using them as a starting point.

I particularly like hand poses. Posing hands can be a pain.

Also, some people are really good at posing. Their poses have such a natural look, without that fake Poser stiffness so many Poser renders have. Worth buying poses like that, IMO.

starting point only. The pre-posed hands are usually bad and need lots of work.

Exactly agree with Ghostship2

Not much of a debate.

How bout this for a debate topic?

"Many vendor renders that use Superfly for promos, especially for characters, look like shit. You can't see the textures through the grain. And character WIPs in general. Is there even a bump map? I can't see it. If you want to show your character use Superfly properly... Starting to think it's not practical to ask that with the latest and greatest. I'm not buying based on your crappy Superfly renders, if I want to see pictures of weird looking naked people that are taken poorly with a shitty camera I'll do screencaps of low quality porn on my phone. And they'll be "photorealistic". I would be able to tell if the character was textured poorly, that is for example, the lip texture is well past where it should be so it has clown lips ( I'm looking at you La homme and La femme character creators) but I can't see that through the grain. You're not getting my 15 bucks."

Probably not going to be a popular debate subject :)

I try to use canned poses if I can find what I need. I do story illustrations and find too many poses aren't suited for that. I don't need a teen girl standing in some sexy pose while getting scolded by her parents. I find something close and tweak it to fit

My beef with promo renders is Too Much Hair.

Unless it's hair you're selling, I don't want to see a lot of hair. In particular, there are some characters where every single render has thick bangs covering the entire forehead. I want to see the eyebrows before I decide to buy or not. Eyebrows are make or break for me. I like textures that can be used for historical or fantasy figures, or for children. Super thick, bushy brows, or very plucked or dark-lined brows don't work for that. Show me the brows, dang it.

Then there's clothing where the figure has so much hair you can't see what the top of the dress looks like.

I also wish more vendors would show their characters in profile. There's a million front views, often a back view, but no profile.

I love Ali's promos. He always shows his hair from all sides. With an untextured render, so you can see what the model looks like.

❤️ ❤️ ❤️ ❤️ to the vendors show their models untextured.

Fabiana and Ali's promos. Ditto. Love them. And also agree with having clay style occlusion renders.

hborre posted at 9:49PM Mon, 08 June 2020 - #4391224

How reliable are the poses?
Do they give you what you want?
Are they exaggerated? Do they go beyond natural human limitations?
Would your wardrobe comply with the poses?

My take on it, use canned poses as a starting point and modify it until you attain something you feel is unique for your scene. Especially, if you totally suck at posing. Ethical? I think it's perfectly fine to buy and use, that's what the product is for.

Exactly my thoughts, as I rarely find a set of poses I've purchased exactly what I want, and I too suck at creating poses from scratch.

ghostship2 posted at 9:53PM Mon, 08 June 2020 - #4391229

starting point only. The pre-posed hands are usually bad and need lots of work.

I couldn't agree more, and am glad I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Fabiana is fantastic with an airbrush in photoshop but her textures don't translate well in a photo-realistic way.

I don't think Fabiana even tries for photorealism. Her vision is romantic and idealistic, not photorealistic.

Which I like, TBH. I'm far more likely to choose perfect, flawless textures than realistic ones.

I can agree with that but it's easier to get to romantisized from realistic than the other way around.

ghostship2 posted at 10:19PM Mon, 08 June 2020 - #4391249

I can agree with that but it's easier to get to romantisized from realistic than the other way around.

I don't understand your meaning here Ghostship2

In any case none of it's "real". Its representation. Including photographs. In fact its layers of re- presentation. Photorealistic renders are a fakery of something that's already fake.

I am not sure "ethical" is the correct expression here, if poses are for sale, and you buy them, then, yes it is ethical, if you warez them, then it is not ethical. I think your question needs to be re-framed.

Canned poses are useful as a starting point. I always adjust the poses anyway... It's ethical.

It's not a question of ethics, it's just efficiency. I've learned that the canned poses never work, so I just pose manually. Most of the 'Universal' poses are weird, to put it bluntly. I never see actual people doing those things! They don't show people sitting and reading, or sitting and typing, or walking normally, or leaning over and working with tools.

Starting point. That's why I like converted poses. They are never good 'out of the box's so you need to work on them. Starting point must be good starting point though: balanced pose, feet on the ground.

Hands can be a nuisance because of the hand pose dials. If for example a parameter 'grab' is not reset in the loaded pose, it will work on and interfere with the new pose.

ockham posted at 5:02AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391259

It's not a question of ethics, it's just efficiency. I've learned that the canned poses never work, so I just pose manually. Most of the 'Universal' poses are weird, to put it bluntly. I never see actual people doing those things! They don't show people sitting and reading, or sitting and typing, or walking normally, or leaning over and working with tools.

There are some that do. 2nd_World has an "Everyday Poses" series in the RMP for various figures, with people sitting on the couch, working at a computer, handling things on a table, texting on a phone, eating, etc. A lot of his poses are also broken into top and bottom, or even by limb (right leg, left arm) so you mix and match.

randym77 posted at 6:27AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391248

I don't think Fabiana even tries for photorealism. Her vision is romantic and idealistic, not photorealistic.

Which I like, TBH. I'm far more likely to choose perfect, flawless textures than realistic ones.

Yeah, but it's also kind of deceptive. Most people buy a pose or even clothing thinking they can recreate the image they saw. They can't. I actually like partial poses. They literally only give you a starting point.

structure posted at 6:31AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391255

I am not sure "ethical" is the correct expression here, if poses are for sale, and you buy them, then, yes it is ethical, if you warez them, then it is not ethical. I think your question needs to be re-framed.

I don't. Unethical doesn't mean it's illegal or for that matter even wrong. But I do classify it as "somewhat cheating". Take, for example, The Star Spangled Banner". Now to the best of my knowledge Francis Scott Key did actually write the lyrics, but I believe the tune is an an old English ditty. Doesn't make the song or how he wrote it any less inspiring.

I'd have to agree with Structure here. By the same token "is it (artistcally?) ethical" to use pre made content? Would be kind of silly to make a claim that it isn't if you're using Poser...

EldritchCellar posted at 7:32AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391270

I'd have to agree with Structure here. By the same token "is it (artistcally?) ethical" to use pre made content? Would be kind of silly to make a claim that it isn't if you're using Poser...

Depends... are you claiming that you made it all yourself... from scratch? If you're claiming that using anything pre-made is "unethical" then where do you stop? The program you didn't write from ground up, The computer, you didn't build from parts? What the about the parts you had to go buy to build the computer. You're also saying that anyone who created any painting that didn't make their own brushes and paint were "unethical".

Nice path of logic. I agree with you totally.

EClark1894 posted at 6:44AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391268

Yeah, but it's also kind of deceptive. Most people buy a pose or even clothing thinking they can recreate the image they saw. They can't.

I think that's usually due to lighting and render settings, so I wouldn't call it deceptive. Some vendors include a light set to help buyers get closer to the promo images, but you still need the right render settings.

Unless you start to build your figure from a contour you draft in an otherwise empty scene in Blender you always use pre-made content. Pre-made is what Poser is all about. Your artistic result is what you made from it. That generally is what being an artist is about: take what is available, stay (if only just) within the limits of what is permitted, and make something new and surprising. Total freedom is plain boring.

AS has been said ... packaged poses are generally a starting point for me. Then I adjust. I do have a couple issues with them though. first is YES they are too extreme. People do NOT stick their chests and bums out the way these models do. These poses are far beyond good posture ... or even military posture. Definitely not natural. I always have to adjust for that. Second is there are some pose sets that don't understand the dynamics of the human body and don't pose from the core out. That is collar>shoulder>arm>hand or hip>buttock(when there is a joint for that)>thigh>leg>foot. AND the second half of that is wonky twists and bends that distort the figure. There are pose vendors who get that ... but there are some who do NOT. It is beyond using limits. As far as promos go .... Most of them look pretty amateurish. Bad lighting and composition. I'm not a master at these things myself, but I can tell when it is way off. This again isn't all, but enough to take notice.

I think the main point is if you claim you did everything yourself, and you didn't, it's deceptive and unethical. Now, this is just me, and I don't mind using canned poses as most people have said, as a starting point. Why re-invent the wheel everytime, unless you're improving on it?

Unless you pose your figure in the nude, in a bodysuit, in a bathing suit, or underwear, 99.9% of the time you will need to adjust the pose to accommodate the clothing used in the scene. Another reason why renders never look right because the mesh doesn't gather and fold naturally. Given, dynamic clothing is a better option, however, if you don't make any allowances for space in the pose it would just be a failed simulation.

People do NOT stick their chests and bums out the way these models do

On Instagram they do

I rarely use a canned pose, or at least, not in the original form. Too many have impossible movements for one thing, and there are still a huge number with knees and elbows bent from side to side, not to mention my particular favourite, the woman standing on tiptoes.

I'll often start with a canned pose but after a bit of faffing around, the finished result is rarely how it started. Exceptions are quick and dirty tests or something that's good enough for the purpose.

Anyhow, I rarely make images these days and the ones that I do make aren't usually with human figures.

Unless you use the figure 'out of the box', you usually will need to adapt for posture.

I'm glad I don't use instagram!!

I use bought poses and then modify them. Always. Especially hands and shoulders.

Clothing always needs adjusting and is actually a good indicator of how well a pose is made within natural parameters. Or how well the clothing is made, for that matter.

I noticed lately that Poser promo pictures are almost always way more.. primitive looking, for lack of better words, than DAZ promos on this same site. I dont want to flame, but I would like to know why. There were products I turned down because of this that otherwise would have been in my wheelhouse.

Nothing unethical about using canned poses. Everything is premade in Poser. It is what you do with the pieces that makes art. Like a quilt.

Rhia474 posted at 4:56PM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391317

I noticed lately that Poser promo pictures are almost always way more.. primitive looking, for lack of better words, than DAZ promos on this same site. I dont want to flame, but I would like to know why. There were products I turned down because of this that otherwise would have been in my wheelhouse.

I wonder if the more experienced artists have moved to DS, and we're seeing newer vendors doing Poser stuff.

I've also noticed what someone posted upthread: a lot of vendors don't know how to use Superfly. The promo renders are noticeably grainy, and sometimes the lighting is pretty poor.

I can sympathize. Superfly is very different and has a lot of settings to adjust, and it takes so flippin' long to render compared to Firefly.

randym77 posted at 7:22PM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391266

A lot of his poses are also broken into top and bottom, or even by limb (right leg, left arm) so you mix and match.

YES! I really like "partial" poses, because I often see a starting pose where I like it from the waist up but it's, for example, a sitting pose, when I want the character standing, or vice versa.

randym77 posted at 7:44PM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391324

Rhia474 posted at 4:56PM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391317

I noticed lately that Poser promo pictures are almost always way more.. primitive looking, for lack of better words, than DAZ promos on this same site. I dont want to flame, but I would like to know why. There were products I turned down because of this that otherwise would have been in my wheelhouse.

I wonder if the more experienced artists have moved to DS, and we're seeing newer vendors doing Poser stuff.

I've also noticed what someone posted upthread: a lot of vendors don't know how to use Superfly. The promo renders are noticeably grainy, and sometimes the lighting is pretty poor.

I can sympathize. Superfly is very different and has a lot of settings to adjust, and it takes so flippin' long to render compared to Firefly.

All of the more experienced artist/vendors HAVE moved to DS. Across the board the products, hair, characters, clothes, whatever, look better. There's some exceptions, mostly in the standalone figure creation realm, Dinoraul, Nursoda... some prop and environment creators... but for your standard pin up characters, clothes, and hair it's glaringly evident. Thankfully some of them are making stuff for La Femme too. Or a token nod.

Superfly isn't done cooking and is virtually undocumented. It's just difficult to see because by and large you all hang out on the forum and have read all the threads that are basically the only documentation.

I've read the Superfly section of the manual. I purchased D3d's pdf tutorial 'Introduction to Superfly' and read it. Without scouring through the forum posts here and at SM someone trying to use Superfly, armed with the manual and that tutorial, would struggle to get decent results.

I suppose it was the same with Firefly and IDL... but there was BB.

Yes, there was also a learning curve when Firefly was first released. I remember some people, including some vendors, refusing to use it, sticking with the Poser 4 renderer. Some textures just didn't work with Firefly.

And I remember a group at DAZ getting together to make Firefly MATs for popular characters as a community service of sorts. I volunteered, but I wasn't very good at it. I screwed up the first set I did and had to re-do it.

At work right now, but wanted to say I know you've been at this for a long time randym77... I think I remember posts from you going back to before Poser 7. But yeah, Superfly will iron itself out. I imagine, especially for newer Poser users, the renderers and material room must seem incredibly daunting. Just think how long it takes to get comfortable with firefly shaders and IDL, now there's superfly on top of that. And many of the principles of Firefly and IDL cross over into using Superfly. People that have been around a long time might take it for granted...

Boni posted at 4:30PM Wed, 10 June 2020 - #4391304

I'm glad I don't use instagram!!

I almost wish I did.

Here's another debate topic...

Trying to help others on the Poser forum is likely to result in an ulcer. In fact, in general, interacting on the forum is likely to result in an ulcer lol.

randym77 posted at 2:38PM Wed, 10 June 2020 - #4391324

Rhia474 posted at 4:56PM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391317

I noticed lately that Poser promo pictures are almost always way more.. primitive looking, for lack of better words, than DAZ promos on this same site. I dont want to flame, but I would like to know why. There were products I turned down because of this that otherwise would have been in my wheelhouse.

I wonder if the more experienced artists have moved to DS, and we're seeing newer vendors doing Poser stuff.

I've also noticed what someone posted upthread: a lot of vendors don't know how to use Superfly. The promo renders are noticeably grainy, and sometimes the lighting is pretty poor.

I can sympathize. Superfly is very different and has a lot of settings to adjust, and it takes so flippin' long to render compared to Firefly.

You can get rid of a lot of the grain in a render simply by running it through a denoiser, which Poser ought to really consider including with the program. Also, development on Poser's features do tend to lag so it's only so much you can do with a fiver year old renderer.

EClark1894 posted at 12:16AM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391273

EldritchCellar posted at 7:32AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391270

I'd have to agree with Structure here. By the same token "is it (artistcally?) ethical" to use pre made content? Would be kind of silly to make a claim that it isn't if you're using Poser...

Depends... are you claiming that you made it all yourself... from scratch? If you're claiming that using anything pre-made is "unethical" then where do you stop? The program you didn't write from ground up, The computer, you didn't build from parts? What the about the parts you had to go buy to build the computer. You're also saying that anyone who created any painting that didn't make their own brushes and paint were "unethical".

following this logic, you should ask if using someone elses pre-made skin / character / clothing / lighting etc is ethical, you can't single out one aspect of poser and ask about it's morality without asking about the whole poser process. ethical means - relating to moral principles or the branch of knowledge dealing with these, so yes, it does actually mean is it right / wrong on a moral level.

Not Posing your figure inside of this figure posing program called poser is kinda sacrilegious,,,,,,,,,,and Unethical

structure posted at 9:48PM Wed, 10 June 2020 - #4391441

EClark1894 posted at 12:16AM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391273

EldritchCellar posted at 7:32AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391270

I'd have to agree with Structure here. By the same token "is it (artistcally?) ethical" to use pre made content? Would be kind of silly to make a claim that it isn't if you're using Poser...

Depends... are you claiming that you made it all yourself... from scratch? If you're claiming that using anything pre-made is "unethical" then where do you stop? The program you didn't write from ground up, The computer, you didn't build from parts? What the about the parts you had to go buy to build the computer. You're also saying that anyone who created any painting that didn't make their own brushes and paint were "unethical".

following this logic, you should ask if using someone elses pre-made skin / character / clothing / lighting etc is ethical, you can't single out one aspect of poser and ask about it's morality without asking about the whole poser process. ethical means - relating to moral principles or the branch of knowledge dealing with these, so yes, it does actually mean is it right / wrong on a moral level.

So, in your mind it's perfectly okay to claim you did all the art yourself, including the posing, even if you didn't? Yeah, we have a different view of what's ethical, and what's not.

Yes, it seems we do, including what I do with the products someone released with the explicit intent to get paid for it in exchange of others using it. And yes, The artwork you do with the pieces you have is yours. As others pointed out, would you deem collage art or those artists that put together artwork from found objects nonethical as well?

You might as well ask if photography is 'ethical' since you most likely didn't create what you are photographing yourself..

DreaminGirl posted at 10:30AM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391497

You might as well ask if photography is 'ethical' since you most likely didn't create what you are photographing yourself.

Uh, not the same thing at all. Photography is the process of capturing light and reproducing it chemically, mechanically or electronically. Short of reproducing the universe everytime you wanted to take a picture, so that everything was original to you, there's no way you could do that. Even then, depending on what, where, and who you photograph or for what purpose, photography could be not only unethical, but illegal.

Also, you CAN fake a photograph by photoshopping, which some people do consider unethical and even illegal, no matter how "artistically" its done.