I was gonna resurrect an old thread, but decided instead that this was a question that deserved int's own topic. I'm still trying to decide what computer to buy, but here's where I'm having a little difficulty. I'm semi-retired now and on a mostly fixed income. At best, any computer I buy will have to be at or below six or seven hundred dollars AT BEST. If I were just interested in Firefly, I probably would have already bought one, but here's the thing. I use Cycles and Superfly in both Blender and Poser. If I can afford one, I'll get a computer with a graphics card. But most of the computers I've seen that I can afford are the ones with integrated graphics or Intel HD Graphics. Honestly, I don't really play games on my computer. Aside from the early days of Spectre and Joust, it's just never really been a thing with me. But I do like Poser and Blender and I want to cut down on my graphics render times. And no, for the umpteenth time, I'm not going to be building my own computer, so let's not go that route. I just wanted something affordable, most like refurbished, good memory, (I'm trying to stay at 8 to 16 Gigs of Ram, and I'm told that solid state is the way to go for hard drives. I have to pay my property taxes, but barring any other unforseen circumstances, I plan to get that computer within the next month.

This probably won't be the computer I get, but as a baseline for what I'm seeing right now, I'd welcome your opinions.

DELL Optiplex 3020 Mini Tower PC - Intel Core i5-4570 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM, 480GB SSD, DVD, Integrated Graphics, 10/100/1000 Ethernet, Win 10 Pro 64-bit, Grade A Refurbished - PC1-4091-REF

I've had HD Graphics, and it's a make or break, hit or miss. For rendering images or high edge graphics, I don't think (my words) Intel HD Graphics would work. I tried it when I had a Dell Inspiron with said graphics card built-in, and was told by a Dell rep that for the line of art/graphics work that I do, it would be slow and taxing and that I should get an AMD/NVidia Graphics card, or just go the gusto and get a Gaming PC. That was, like, 2 years ago.

I went on and got an Acer Nitro last year for only $600 at BHPhoto and so far, I like it with the NVidia Graphics card that I have. I manage to get my rendering up to speed with 6GB of Graphics RAM.

Hope that helps.

So you think I ought to bite the bullet on the price?

Hey Earl, I used to work in a computer repair shop. From a repair and upgrade standpoint Dell's are a no go. They tend to use proprietary PSU and mobo's so you are forced to go with their parts when something goes. Also when it's time you want to upgrade you have to buy a whole new computer instead of just maybe a mobo/ram/cpu.

I agree with ghostship2. Stay away from Dell if you have any hope of upgrading parts.

I'll third staying well clear of Dell. Better to build your own if it's gonna be a desktop.

As for OP? Integrated graphics do okay if you're using the CPU to render, and nothing else. HOWEVER, render engines are increasingly moving towards utilizing the massively CG-friendly firmware and instruction sets that GPU chipsets provide. Sure they can still shift to CPU if needs be (Iray does this), but pure GPU rendering on these render engines take only a fraction of the time that a CPU takes, and the results look way, way, WAY better for anything remotely 'realistic' in nature (and even does a bang-up job on cell- and toon-shaded renders.)

Long story short - get a decent GPU-based video card. It'll future-proof things a little for you.

Okay, no to Dell. I'm trying to find some GPU that decent, but it will have to be cheap.

one thing to add to my statement. Dell also uses cases that don't take standard parts. If I want to get f***ed like that I'll go back to being a Mac user. lol

So, no to Dell. Any brand you prefer?

The folks at Cybertron PC were really helpful. I bought two computers from them over the last six years. I didn't really know what I wanted, except to say I wanted to play with 3D modeling and they put together something that wasn't overpriced but works fine just for me. The computers haven't broken yet. They were also helpful (and patient!) when I had trouble adding more RAM.

In my early days on Poser, I used a Mac. I didn't have the proper amount of RAM, but I could still use Poser thanks to something called Virtual Ram. Basically, it's just designating a portion of your harddrive to act as RAM. My renders crawled along until Poser 4 came out. I upgraded my computer and made sure I had enough RAM. Firefly seemed to fly back then. I am no longer on a Mac. Moved over to a PC. And in case you're wondering, I still love Macs, but I admit I do have a new appreciation for PCs now.

So many community created extensions to Poser were written as windows only, as a former mac poser user with an interest in morphs and figure creation I always felt left out of all those nifty toys. I see no reason whatsoever, in terms of making 3d art stuff, to go back to Mac.

Really? I didn't feel left out at all. Well, except for Crossdresser and Studio stuff.

Poser morph loader

Binary morph editor

Poser File editor

Cr2Editor

And the list goes on...

Crossdresser has a Mac version

You probably didn't feel left out because none of those tools were on your radar

One thing I will say about Mac, the hardware lasts forever. I bought a G5 used about 10 years ago and it finally just gave up the ghost. PPC. If it weren't so ancient I'd repair it.

Eclark;

If you have to go with with a laptop, then you want to look at a) system and video memory (if it has separate VRAM. Those that don't share sys mem), b) OpenGL implementation, c) Whether its an integrated GPU (like the AMD A series processors) or a standalone (like the Intel greaphics chip) The former can degrade the processor if you push the GPU hard enough due to heat, while the Intel will overheat the whole system if the airflow is badly designed or blocked

If you decide to go with a desktop (I remember you said you had no interest in building it), then make sure the builder uses 'white box' standard parts. Those are components built to meet the actual IEEE standards, so they are usable in any system that takes industry standard.

And add me to list of 'Avoid Dell at all costs'. They do their job, and are designed and built to force you to send it back to Mikey and Co for any maintenance or upgrading. As business machines they work, as personal units they tend to be a frigging nightmare to deal with.

In fact, I currently use a Dell Vostro 1550 laptop. It's actually served me pretty well, but I think it's reached the end of it's life. I upgraded to Windows 10 for a brief few days, but found I couldn't run Blender. I NEED Blender. I can't run 2.8, so I'm currently stuck with 2.79.

You can actually build a decent enough computer for the budget you have and if possible you can always upgrade it later.

I wouldn't go for an integrated GPU as you can get some decent ones fairly cheap.

But the first thing I would suggest is to go for AMD Ryzen rather than Intel. Ryzen is "killing" Intel when its comes to multithreading unless you are willing to pay a lot more.

AMD Ryzen 5 3600

6 Cores - 3600 MHz - 65 watts

From $ 159.99

This include a CPU Fan as well.

Intel Core i7-9700K

$374.00 - $385.00

And then you have to buy a CPU fan as well.

So you can get a Ryzen which outperform Intel for less than half the price.

For the money you save you can buy a motherboard as well.

MSI MPG B550 Gaming Edge WiFi Gaming Motherboard (AMD AM4, DDR4, PCIe 4.0, SATA 6Gb/s, M.2, USB 3.2 Gen 2, AX Wi-Fi 6, HDMI/DP, ATX) $224.88

16 GB memory around 100 $

If you already have a ATX cabinet you can use that, you might have to get a new power supply, depending on what you have.

For graphic card you can get a Nvidia 1660 super RTX with 6 GB for $270 (This you can buy later or something else.)

Throw in a SSD (Samsung 1 TB $139.99)

AMD Ryzen 5 3600

MSI MPG B550 Gaming Edge WiFi Gaming Motherboard

16 GB memory

Nvidia 1660 super RTX with 6 GB

SSD 1 TB

That would put you at 895 $

AMD Ryzen 5 3600

MSI MPG B550 Gaming Edge WiFi Gaming Motherboard

16 GB memory

Nvidia 1660 super RTX with 6 GB (Buy graphic card later)

SSD 1 TB

That is 625 $

(Depending on what power supply you have or if you need to buy an new cabinet as well, you will have to put that on top. And you probably need to buy windows 10 as well.)

(I myself have the following computer running fine with a 500 watts power supply.)

Ryzen 7 3700X

32 GB memory

SSD 256 GB

SSD 1TB

External HD 1 TB

Internal 500 GB HD

TUF Gaming x570-Plus motherboard

Nvidia Geforce 1660 super

And you can probably search a bit around the internet and find out how you can save some more money or adjust the stuff I suggested.

EldritchCellar posted at 8:43PM Tue, 30 June 2020 - #4393230

So many community created extensions to Poser were written as windows only, as a former mac poser user with an interest in morphs and figure creation I always felt left out of all those nifty toys. I see no reason whatsoever, in terms of making 3d art stuff, to go back to Mac.

I worked with Macs for 19 years of my former career as professional graphic designer for print

In the arena a 3D/CG it is not just poser... it is everything.?

Apple is a super rich smart phone company that has become a genuine luxury brand for affluent consumers and good for them ,they are an American success story.?

But for me it was a no brainer when I discovered the Windows only Reallusion character animation software when I was still using Poser 6 on an old intel mac.?

And this was before it became apparent ( to me at least),that the realtime/GPU based graphics revolution was happening on Game consoles & Desktop PC hardware...Not on Apple computers.?

But... but... Pixar... Wavefront object... Surely...

Hm. Maybe I'm thinking of ILM or something else.

EldritchCellar posted at 1:37PM Wed, 01 July 2020 - #4393230

So many community created extensions to Poser were written as windows only, as a former mac poser user with an interest in morphs and figure creation I always felt left out of all those nifty toys. I see no reason whatsoever, in terms of making 3d art stuff, to go back to Mac.

Fair call - I bumped back to 'doze mostly because when I bought this little beastie, I still traveled like mad, and since I didn't have the time/patience to Hackintosh something, and because Apple had some really crap options for GPUs on the latest (at the time) Macbook pros... yeah, I wound up buying an Acer Aspire instead, mostly for two things: its reputation for being not total crap (coughDellcough), and because it has an nVidia GTX 1060 (w/ 6GB of dedicated GPU RAM) on board.

I do miss the ol' Mac sometimes. My wife still uses it with zero issues at all, almost 8 years after I first bought the thing.. and I gave it to her in late 2018 after I beat the crap out of it on a near-daily basis. The newer macs (like my work laptop) don't quite have the same uber-high level of quality, but they still do okay.

Meanwhile, most PC-based laptops tend to crap out after 1-2 years (the trackpad is already dead on this Acer, but COVID says that my passport is staying idle for awhile still, so a plugin mouse works just fine for the time being...)

I've actually stopped missing my Mac. I haven't even considered getting anther one. I feel there's two reasons for that, both my own personal opinions. First, I couldn't keep up with Mac OSs. Everytime I turned around there was a new one coming out. As a result I got further and further behind. The second reason is Tim Cook. Personally, I don't think he knows what he's doing. But mostly, he's not Steve Jobs. I had a lot more confidence in what Apple was doing and Where Apple was going when Jobs was in charge. Apple may be making money had over fist with iPhones, but it don't own one and as far as I'm concerned, short of someone just giving me one, I never will. Plus, they're just ludicrously overpriced.

EClark1894 posted at 8:32PM Wed, 01 July 2020 - #4393666

Apple may be making money had over fist with iPhones, but it don't own one and as far as I'm concerned, short of someone just giving me one, I never will. Plus, they're just ludicrously overpriced.

Yup. Funny story about iPhones, I work for a construction company. Private contractor. The owner is an Irishman, from Ireland, very old school. It's been said by former employees (foreman in fact) that guys like this are the reason unions exist. Anyway, that's the window dressing. The guy has a very lucrative contract that's been ongoing for many years. To say he's not the most erudite, or rather of philosophical bent, fellow is an understatement but he's carved out his thing and made some decent money over the years. He and his entire family only use iPhones and they only drive Ford trucks. As far as the iPhones go, it's not because of some tech preference. He literally doesn't know what an android phone is. Why only iPhone? Because it's the most expensive. I think for many people the only reason they prefer iPhones is because they're jewelry.

I agree; I've had HD graphics in the past. It is too slow for the work in my domain.

The best thing about on board graphics is it will run while you save up for your next way too expensive GC

Tangential, a custom 'desktop', but I realised I could build a complete, stand-alone, network-render 'Box' for less than cost of significantly upgrading either of my now-ageing CAD-Tower's twin graphics cards. To put it politely, GPU card prices are scary...

'Box' has an an old 1GB Radeon 'office' GPU card driving a small VGA display, yet 32 GB and a Ryzen-7, so ~16 threads. Queue Manager happily uses 15¾ of them, 95~98% of CPU resource...

Turning the issue around, could you use either your old or next PC as a network-render resource ?

Per comments above, I'd shun Intel, got for the most AMD Ryzen threads I can afford. Even slightly under-clocked for thermal stability, each extra CPU thread totally trumps a few percent of clock-speed. 'Gotcha' is that AMD uses Ryzen-series die-space for either on-board GPU support or extra CPU cores...

Due Care, please ??

I agree; I've had HD graphics in the past. It is too slow for the work in my domain. I work as a programmist, and it doesn't matter the language I work with; sometimes, I need to render high-edge graphics. At some point, my computer glitched, and I almost lost important files from my computer. I saved my files using a data recovery service, like salvagedata.com. I learned from my mistakes in the past, so I use cloud storage to store my important data, and I make sure to make some copies of them, just in case. It will save you from the stressful situation I have been through.

Tangential, a custom 'desktop', but I realised I could build a complete, stand-alone, network-render 'Box' for less than cost of significantly upgrading either of my now-ageing CAD-Tower's twin graphics cards. To put it politely, GPU card prices are scary...

'Box' has an an old 1GB Radeon 'office' GPU card driving a small VGA display, yet 32 GB and a Ryzen-7, so ~16 threads. Queue Manager happily uses 15¾ of them, 95~98% of CPU resource...

Turning the issue around, could you use either your old or next PC as a network-render resource ?

Per comments above, I'd shun Intel, got for the most AMD Ryzen threads I can afford. Even slightly under-clocked for thermal stability, each extra CPU thread totally trumps a few percent of clock-speed. 'Gotcha' is that AMD uses Ryzen-series die-space for either on-board GPU support or extra CPU cores...

Due Care, please ??

when I categorize my "workstation" as such it rates as an i5 battleship but the 1333 ram speed gets it rated as a log or turd for a game box so it all depends on which class you rate your stuff in if you a baseline I was checking if I could bitmine (ALL render time on the machine and NO creative input with some financial compensation and No pictures from the process) I "need" too many parts to make it work on my 10 year old intel chips I had an AMD once

A totally 'off the wall' option...

Had AliEx link sent to me for external chassis to take ~450 W PSU and a BIG graphics card, the latter linked to lap-top's PCIEx mini-slot where network card usually lives.

( Spin-off from crypto-mining rigs ??)

Bunch of gotchas: Laptop needs accessible mini-slot, sundry compatibility issues, you'd need a USB-to-network adapter in place of the pulled mini-card etc etc...

Upside, you could probably test with a 'basic' GPU before buying what often resembles a hover-drone...

refurbed Dell junk is just sanitized low value stuff that has almost no upgrade potential learn a hard lesson you got to pay if you want to play