randym77 posted at 4:00AM Wed, 19 May 2021 - #4419482

This must be a right pain for vendors, with basically three renderers to support (or at least consider). At this point, there's probably a lot more people using Firefly and Poser 11 Superfly than Poser 12, which makes it hard to get rid of one.

It is in my opinion a big issue, because which users should you make content for and which render engines? Then one could argue that we could just include materials for all of them. But I don't think people know how long it takes to make textures, PBR makes it slightly faster and allow all vendors to use the same basic method to describe the most common used materials that you will basically find in all scenes, which is really awesome.

Obviously the big issue as you also say is that both vendors and users, have different versions of Poser. Which obviously was an issue the moment Superfly was introduced, its to be expected, as its a completely new render engine. However Poser 12 have access or uses different nodes than Poser 11 does. And when Poser 13 comes out at some point I can only imagine that it will be even worse, because obviously users of Poser 12 want to make use of the benefits with their version and so does potential users of 13, but for vendors to make content for as many users as possible, it makes sense to make them for lowest possible version of Poser :D Which means that you have to use the nodes which are available in all the versions. And that is simply when we are talking Superfly, then you have to deal with Firefly as well, because a lot of people prefer using that, due to whatever reason.

So even for content creators there is probably not a huge incentive to switch to Poser 12, because as long as the majority of the community is stuck in Firefly or earlier versions of Superfly, the benefits which potentially comes with Poser 12 and above, is not really needed. I don't think that Poser 11 or 12 improves on Firefly compared to Poser 10 or maybe even 9, for instance?

And that is a huge issue, and I also think that its the wrong way for Poser to go, their strategy for Poser is wrong in my opinion. If you compare it to Daz and their method of doing it. Content creators as well as the users, will always work with the same version, some might choose not to upgrade, but 95% or more of the community will use the latest version.

I have no clue how many people are using the different versions of Poser, absolutely no clue, and I don't even think that Renderosity knows. They obviously have some sales indications. But I don't think they have any good numbers to work with when it comes to each version of Poser.

I suggested it back when they started talking about Poser 12, that they should make it free and I still think that it is the way to go. Yes, they might lose a bit of sales from Poser itself, but it will probably also boost the number of users, which will potentially buy content for it. So what Renderosity ought to do, is to boost and work on getting top of the line content. Like investing in top of line characters, animals etc. boost the relationship (not that it is bad) with content creators. Because content is what drive both Daz and Poser. Without that, these programs dies it's that simple really.

But constantly releasing new versions of Poser, which lets be honest is quite expensive, especially when you as a user also have to buy all the content. So the strategy they are using, is sort of like driving a knife deeper and deeper between content creators and users and their own business model, where the gap constantly gets wider and wider.

So if I were them, I would change the strategy for Poser completely.

1. Make Poser free.

2. Release high quality models (humans and animals like what initially drew people to Poser, yes it will have an initial cost, but it would be money well spend)

3. Make constantly small improvements to Poser, like adding new shaders and other minor improvements, that will help the average user.

4. Listen to the community about what changes they would like and slowly implement them, not in one huge release, but as above slowly over time.

5. If they want they can work on a more massive version in the background and release that when ready.

6. Work closely with the content creators and work on getting Poser out there so people are made aware that it exists and it's now free and there are lots of content for it. Basically increasing the user base. And as that happens, the sales in content should follow, which most likely will draw in more content creators as well, which again will most likely increase their revenues from content sales.

And finally everyone is working with the same version of Poser, which will make the marketplace a lot more consistent.

I personally think that if they are continuing with the strategy they have now, that they are potentially going to kill Poser, because it becomes too complicated or to messy for content creators to work between all these versions and for users also having to navigate between it, to find content that works in their version is not the right way to go.

Eronik posted at 5:28AM Wed, 19 May 2021 - #4419483

Thanks for the link Mobster! Except that all this PBR talk is really making me thirty for a cold PBR :)

To your health!

If that is a 3D render, I have to say well done. That looks freaking awesome :D

Hopefully that will help me on my holy quest for spreading PBR to the masses :D

(PS. I think I missed the name of the beer, anyway looks awesome regardless :D)

3D-Mobster posted at 6:49AM Wed, 19 May 2021 - #4419499

However Poser 12 have access or uses different nodes than Poser 11 does. And when Poser 13 comes out at some point I can only imagine that it will be even worse, because obviously users of Poser 12 want to make use of the benefits with their version and so does potential users of 13, but for vendors to make content for as many users as possible, it makes sense to make them for lowest possible version of Poser :D

I think this a major factor holding Superfly back. It's seen as not finished yet. Vendors and users are hesitant to commit, because Poser 13 (or even the next update of Poser 12) might break the shaders that used to work. You have the early adopters who are excited about a new toy, but most users don't want to learn a whole new system when it might go away with the next update.

Someone updating Snarly's scripts to work in Poser 12 would be a big help. Even if you know what you're doing, adjusting shaders for an entire human figure is a pain in the butt. If you don't, forget about it.

I do think they may have released Poser 12 too soon. They probably needed the money, but for most users, it's probably not worth it to upgrade, and I suspect it's kind of made a mess of the content market.

Not sure about your marketing plan, though. It sounds like that would leave them in turf war with DAZ, and I don't think they'll win.

Sorry randym & Mobster, but that beer shoot is an actual picture. And every time I scroll through this thread, I feel the urge to drink one of them beers, the PBR (short for Pabst Blue Ribbon) :}

But we could make it a fun challenge and see who can come close to that pict with SuperFly.

randym77 posted at 8:16AM Wed, 19 May 2021 - #4419506

I think this a major factor holding Superfly back. It's seen as not finished yet. Vendors and users are hesitant to commit, because Poser 13 (or even the next update of Poser 12) might break the shaders that used to work. You have the early adopters who are excited about a new toy, but most users don't want to learn a whole new system when it might go away with the next update.

Someone updating Snarly's scripts to work in Poser 12 would be a big help. Even if you know what you're doing, adjusting shaders for an entire human figure is a pain in the butt. If you don't, forget about it.

I do think they may have released Poser 12 too soon. They probably needed the money, but for most users, it's probably not worth it to upgrade, and I suspect it's kind of made a mess of the content market.

Not sure about your marketing plan, though. It sounds like that would leave them in turf war with DAZ, and I don't think they'll win.

I don't think its a huge issue that Superfly is not a 100% completed, this issue is with all renders, where you have new and improved versions being released, which might require some adjustments to shaders etc. Stuff like that can be worked around, if people have access to the same versions. The problem is, that a person might make a product using a node in Poser 12, which means that it will probably just make an error in Poser 11, so potentially all those people are removed. Which is why vendors would probably target the lowest possible version. Which again sort of ruin the idea of a new release, because in a program like Poser which is 99% content driven, you want your content creators to adapt to the new features as fast as possible, because they help "sell" your product, otherwise what would be the point of a new version in the first place?

But as it is now, since users and vendors are split all over the place, its a nightmare for everyone, including Renderosity, because obviously they would like people to buy Poser 12 and content for it. That is how they make money, but the content creators are basically stuck in an old version and a lot of users are not going to upgrade to Poser 12, because of a single piece of content. So its kind of like everyone is stuck in a deadlock. Because even for vendors buying Poser 12 is still expensive, its not like we make millions of dollars from this. I think by far the most of us do it, because we enjoy making 3D and making a bit on the side is nice. But you have to remember that pretty much all content creators have experience with other 3D programs as well, which means that if we are working on personal projects, we wouldn't go through the whole process of turning them into products, which does take a lot of time already. So further complicating the whole process for us, I simply don't think is very beneficial for anyone in the community or again Renderosity themselves.

I don't know Snarly's scripts as I rarely use any scripts at all. But if they are useful, probably Poser should include a version of them which does whatever they do, because as you say it might be something that people really want.

Whether they released it to early or not, I don't know. But I definitely think they released it with the wrong price tag :D

In regards to Daz, they are already in a tug of war with them, and I don't think its about Poser winning over Daz or the other way around. But a lot more about Poser adjusting to things and the market they are in. Because again, they need users because that's how the make money and the users want content. So Renderosity have to figure out how the please these two sides, while making profit as well. And I just don't think that the way they are doing it now, is going to work in the long run, because they don't really satisfy any sides at the moment as I see it, because they drive this knife between the user base purely due to their own releases, which divide users and ultimately affect their own business model. And at some point, someone is going to give and then it all collapses. Because as I see it, it will only get worse with Poser 13 or 14 etc.

Eronik posted at 9:00AM Wed, 19 May 2021 - #4419509

Sorry randym & Mobster, but that beer shoot is an actual picture. And every time I scroll through this thread, I feel the urge to drink one of them beers, the PBR (short for Pabst Blue Ribbon) :}

But we could make it a fun challenge and see who can come close to that pict with SuperFly.

Yeah that could be a fun challenge, I really don't know how to make the foam though :D

BB's Glass of Beer (for FireFly, not SuperFly)

You might be able to get ideas from this for a SuperFly shader.

bagginsbill posted at 9:34AM Wed, 19 May 2021 - #4419518

BB's Glass of Beer (for FireFly, not SuperFly)

You might be able to get ideas from this for a SuperFly shader.

Ooh, that's nice. I like the condensation on the glass.

@3D-Mobster: Oh, Snarly's scripts are amazing. I use them a lot. Probably EZskin is the most used. It will fix the shaders of popular figures for Firefly or Superfly with one click. A lot of the older shaders look terrible in today's Poser, but EZskin fixes them. SceneFixer does something similar, but isn't specialized to specific figures; you can even use it on props.

The scripts no longer work in Poser 12, because of the Python issue. Supposedly, he's working on fixing them. But he may be waiting until Superfly is more settled, since skin shaders seem to be among things that are different, and might be changing again.

He also has fun stuff like Snow Machine. It lets you put snow (or other materials) on flat surfaces in a somewhat natural fashion.

I think for the final version of this image, I reapplied the leg textures after running Snow Machine, since as moving parts, they would not accumulate much snow.

I love those scripts. All of them, and I used them daily with P11.
I am willing to wait however long it takes to get them right in P12. Remember, these are free and worked on in free time, so it's not as simple as ' a dev cycle'. I would even be willing to pay. Heck, perhaps it should be crowdsourced.

I have absolutely no use for 'SuperFly' or any PBR shader system because I'm happy THIS side of the uncanny valley. (Not to mention that if cranked to 11, as Bagginsbills excelent example demonstrates, Firefly is quite capeable on its own.)

I'm a hobbyist and old school Poser user. I like my "easy" workflow and with PP 2014 and Poser 11 installed, I can do everything I want. I can rig, I can sculpt, I can make new figures, I can hack and slack by editing cr2's, I can build completely new stuff in Wings3D. I (more or less) have the material, cloth, setup and the hair rooms figured out (at least on a basic level).

I don't even need better figures because with all those tools to my disposal, I can do anything with all the figures I already have. Just for kicks, I recently transferred G2 Vicky's face over to Posette/NEA, just to see how "un-Posette" I can make her. :-)

So whatever I can think of, I can do in Poser. (Mostly PP 2014 as Poser 11 has some slight "hick-ups". But its subD morphbrush is very, very nice!)

So what I need from Poser is to render faster and to especially allow instancing for huge outdoor scenes! Genesis style "one click" cloth conversion/rigging would also be a very welcome feature. (Not to mention complete Genesis integration. Not just because of Genesis, but because 99% of the "cool stuff" content is now FOR Genesis, and conversion always takes extra time. (I have Studio installed on another computer, so if push comes to shove, I can still simply export the object files)

But a borrowed and incompletely integrated shader system from another app was really the last thing I would have wanted. Nor do I need for my huge library of python scripts to be broken. How big are the chances that scripts like "Mag-Cloner" will be ever updated? Or "MorphMirror". Has "Scenefixer" been already updated?

Besides, if I'd want true photorealism that badly, I'd simply pick up Blender. It's free and there is a huge community out there trying to teach.

So, here we are. No interrest in 'SuperFly" at all and no interrest in Poser 12 (so far), either.

Give me full on instancing and/or Genesis integration (or at least true one click conversion of Genesis content), and we can talk.

Otherwise, thanks, but no thanks.

Rhia474 posted at 12:35PM Wed, 19 May 2021 - #4419532

I love those scripts. All of them, and I used them daily with P11.
I am willing to wait however long it takes to get them right in P12. Remember, these are free and worked on in free time, so it's not as simple as ' a dev cycle'. I would even be willing to pay. Heck, perhaps it should be crowdsourced.

I would also be willing to pay. Though I'm not sure if money is really the issue. If it is, someone set up a Kickstarter.

For everyone asking for starter/example materials for Superfly, I just want to remind everyone that there's a folder under my name in Materials/Superfly/Afrodite-Ohki included with P11 and P12 - all of these are free for use and merchant resources, and you can include them in your creations as they come or edit them however you'd like.

And for that, I thank you, Ohki.

hborre posted at 1:35PM Wed, 19 May 2021 - #4419537

And for that, I thank you, Ohki.

My pleasure! :D

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 2:13PM Wed, 19 May 2021 - #4419536

For everyone asking for starter/example materials for Superfly, I just want to remind everyone that there's a folder under my name in Materials/Superfly/Afrodite-Ohki included with P11 and P12 - all of these are free for use and merchant resources, and you can include them in your creations as they come or edit them however you'd like.

I've seen them in my Runtimes, but haven't had a chance to play with them . . . yet. I guess I'll be doing that now that you reminded me they're there.

Nice collection Ohki!

Boni also created a set which I believe can be found @ ShareCG, maybe even here in the Rendo freebee section.

bagginsbill posted at 5:23PM Wed, 19 May 2021 - #4419518

You might be able to get ideas from this for a SuperFly shader.

I tried using it and it seems to work nicely for Firefly, but as you also pointed out not so much for Superfly.

Creating foam is really not easy :D

Its extremely complex or at least well above my abilities with cycles. With all the bubbles etc. I wouldn't even know where to start :D

I was wondering, given that you are very good at all this node based texturing, have you tried Substance designer? because I would assume that it is a playground for you with all these nodes, and maybe you could make some nice PBR textures along the way, like foam :D

Substance designer

randym77 posted at 5:33PM Wed, 19 May 2021 - #4419520

@3D-Mobster: Oh, Snarly's scripts are amazing. I use them a lot. Probably EZskin is the most used. It will fix the shaders of popular figures for Firefly or Superfly with one click. A lot of the older shaders look terrible in today's Poser, but EZskin fixes them. SceneFixer does something similar, but isn't specialized to specific figures; you can even use it on props.

Ahh ok, I know EZskin, haven't really used it though. But that seems handy. Might have to look into that at some point. Thanks

randym77 posted at 7:37AM Fri, 28 May 2021 - #4419520

Oh, Snarly's scripts are amazing. I use them a lot. Probably EZskin is the most used. It will fix the shaders of popular figures for Firefly or Superfly with one click. A lot of the older shaders look terrible in today's Poser, but EZskin fixes them. SceneFixer does something similar, but isn't specialized to specific figures; you can even use it on props.

The scripts no longer work in Poser 12, because of the Python issue. Supposedly, he's working on fixing them. But he may be waiting until Superfly is more settled, since skin shaders seem to be among things that are different, and might be changing again.

I agree his scripts are great! I honestly couldn't see myself moving over to Poser 12 without EZSkin especially. So the good news is he is indeed still working on Poser 12 versions.

I have Poser 12, but still use mostly Poser 11. Because of Snarly's scripts. Glad to hear he's still working on converting them.

BTW, here's the final version of the snow machine image I posted above.

I think I ended up re-grouping the dinosaur to get a lighter amount of snow on the legs, at Snarly's suggestion. Now I'd probably just use Photoshop. ?

randym77 posted at 12:49AM Sat, 29 May 2021 - #4420066

I have Poser 12, but still use mostly Poser 11. Because of Snarly's scripts. Glad to hear he's still working on converting them.

BTW, here's the final version of the snow machine image I posted above.

I think I ended up re-grouping the dinosaur to get a lighter amount of snow on the legs, at Snarly's suggestion. Now I'd probably just use Photoshop. ?

That's without any post-work? That looks awesome!

Thanks. I might have added the falling snow in post. It was awhile back.

I do remember that Snow Machine applies to material zones, so you can have different amounts of snow on different parts, with the right material zones and a little fiddling. But mostly, it just works automatically. The only reason I had to faff with it was because I was showing snow on an animal that was supposed to be moving. It really is an amazing script.

Rhia474 posted at 10:20AM Tue, 01 June 2021 - #4419532

Heck, perhaps it should be crowdsourced.

I think that's a great idea, if that's what Snarly needs, then I'd support it.

That said, the recently released SkinEdit product might solve a fair bunch of the Poser12 SuperFly issues? (not tried it yet).

Going forward, I want to stick as pure as I can to only using PBR via the Physical Node as that's clearly the future and best for content creators imho.

SkinEdit is great. I tried it, and it works on a lot of earlier skins, but not all. You actually need some knowledge of how skin shader setups work to get all it offers out of it, while EZSkin was literally a 'click and done ' solution. I believe there is place on the market for both.