> Announcement: > > M4~WM and K4~WM for Poser 9 and Poser Pro 2012 are now back on the agenda at PoserPlace. V4~WM has been very well received by the Poser Community. In considering the various projects on the schedule, as well as the interests of Poser users in general, we have decided to move the re-rigging and weight-mapping of M4 and K4 toward the front of the line. This will fill the need for both a weight-mapped male figure, and a weight-mapped child figure for Poser 9 and Poser Pro 2012. These figures, like V4.2, already have a large amount of support in content, poses, morphs, and textures, and so do not suffer the problems of newly introduced figures that have no established support. They will also benefit the community of vendors and content creators who already have products for M4 and K4 and are still developing for these figures. > > Please Keep in Mind: > > There are already several projects that must be finished in order to move on to M4~WM and K4~WM. At this present time, Phantom3D is finishing an update for V4~WM. I am sure that you all realize that there is no more effective beta-test than the initial release of a figure. What we cannot find in beta, the larger Poser Community will quickly discover, and report. He hopes to complete this in a few days. > > The PoserPlace Crew is completing a clothes conversion utility to apply weight-maps to clothing already available for V4.2 (and Antonia~Standard). This started as a project to make a simple utility, but has evolved into a Python application that will be able to handle most clothing and a lot of props. This does not duplicate the function of Wardrobe Wizard and Cross Dresser, and will not convert content between figures, but will inject weight-maps into non-weight-mapped clothing for V4.2 and Antonia~Standard. Along the way it has been generalized so that the utility will be able to do the same for other figures as they are weight-mapped. At the same time this project has helped improve the process used to distribute weight-maps for figures such as V4.2 and M4. In the case of legacy figures, content already created can be updated by users, and for vendors, content created for legacy figures can also (more easily) be distributed for their weight-mapped counterparts. > > There is an ongoing project to weight-map the Sidney legacy figure from a past version of Poser. This may proceed more slowly in order to accommodate the effort required to undertake the M4 and K4 project. The rigging and weight-map tutorials by Phantom3d will also take a backseat to the needs of this project. > > Considerations: > > From the beginning we asked DAZ3D to spell out their requirements on the distribution of weight-maps for their figures. Under the terms of their conditions, none of their original data can be distributed. This means that the figures must be completely re-rigged with an original rig. Even the endpoints of bones, and joint-centers must be independently developed, and weight-maps converted from the present joints cannot be used as a starting point for making distributable weight-maps. So, M4 and K4 must be completely re-rigged, and the weight-maps must be completely original. Only the new rig and weight/bulge-maps can be distributed, and these must be injected into a CR2 already installed in a Poser Runtime directory. > > As you can imagine, this takes a lot of work. But, V4~WM is a proof of concept both for distribution, and for successfully re-rigging and weight-mapping a legacy figure. With M4 and K4, a lot of the work has already been done on V4~WM. So, while the project cannot be finished overnight, it should not take nearly as long to complete. We are absolutely committed to abiding by the stipulations set out by DAZ3D. > > A further consideration complicates the task. The mesh must remain unchanged. V4.2, M4 and K4 were not created to support weight-maps. In order to make sure that existing morphs and content will still work with M4~WM and K4~WM their meshes and vertex orders must be maintained. A mesh designed for weight-maps would produce superior results as newer figures will demonstrate, but the limitation cannot be helped under the circumstances. Regardless, M4~WM and K4~WM will have the same superior performance in Poser 9 and Poser Pro 2012 that V4~WM has demonstrated. > > The Project: > > Phantom3D will do the preliminary work on the rig and weight-maps. It will take him a week or two to get this done (I hope he takes as much time as he needs). There will be some refinement work done by the PoserPlace Crew, and then they will begin initial beta-testing. To be as efficient as possible, this work will need to be carried out with some privacy. There will be ongoing information posted at PoserPlace in our general forums. I will try to make sure, as time allows, to keep information updated here as well. > > An Invitation: > > We expect this project to stimulate some interest in the Poser Community, maybe more so than the V4~WM project, because of her success. We are particularly interested in the comments, suggestions, and concerns of our friends here at Renderosity. > > Among the things that can be done to help us, we are interested in problems with the M4 and K4 figures that can be addressed through the rig, weight-maps, and bulge-maps. These figures have problems in bending, posing, and morphing that the process of updating might be able to address. The more we know, the better job we can do. Phantom3D is an accomplished artist/sculptor, and we now have in our crew professional expertise in anatomy and physiology, along with many other talents and skills. We hope to greatly improve the realism of these figures. > > It is helpful to us if as many people as possible in the world-wide Poser Community are informed about our work and progress. It is okay to spread the news, and point people to PoserPlace. When the time comes for distribution, this will be all the more important. We hope that the development of M4~WM and K4~WM will stimulate interest in renewed support and new content for the Generation 4 figures and their weight-mapped counter-parts. We also hope that when they are available that the artists here will use them in P9/PP2012 renders to demonstrate what can be done with these figures. > > At some point we might need a wider group of people for testing and other work. All the people here are welcome to sign on at PoserPlace, look around, and participate as you are able and are needed. We want to extend that invitation to everyone here at Renderosity. > > A similar invitation will be extended elsewhere. I hope you will forgive me in reusing most of this missive, so that I do not have to rewrite it for elsewhere. > > Provisos: > > We do not have many rules, but these things are important. PoserPlace is a website dedicated to developing and distributing the best possible Poser enabled figures, content, and scripts. It is our purpose to advance Poser, and make its rich set of features more accessible to the Poser Community. We are not interested in discussions and debates that distract from these objectives. Arguments over applications and businesses are not accommodated. Distractions and trolling will be transferred to the Dungeons or deleted. > > From those who want to participate, we expect civility and mutual respect. We are a diverse and eclectic gathering of people. We prize our diversity and differences, and expect tolerance, and mutual consideration. Those who cannot get along will not be allowed to stay. We could not have accomplished what we have done, in the short time we have been together, without this ethic. > > Phantom3D is the website owner, and PoserPlace is his home. He has generously welcomed us there, and contributed to the entire Poser Community with his efforts. His decisions are final. He has earned our respect, and facilitated our work. We have had very few problems under his administration of PoserPlace. > > And So: > > We would love to hear from you. Your contribution to the conversation is valued. Don’t be strangers. > > lmk > >

One of the things the Outfitter script will also help with is NEW conforming items.  For vendors, this will be a mouse click solution to clothing you have already created - to enable a weight mapped version right alongside the standard conforming version!

I guess you can regroup the mesh, and recompute the full body morphs to reflect the regrouped mesh, if that helps anything. As you are weight mapping it, the existing JCMs anyway become obsolete.

 

:thumbupboth:

Woot!  This is great news.  Thank you!

Looking forward to it, especially the Outfitter script.

Cheerio

lululeerrific.

I'm delighted that so many talented people have devoted themselves to helping other Poserphiles fully utilize the program's capabilities.  Thank you, and bless you!

LMK

A very comphrehensive description- thanks for writing it. As al beta tester-I am constantly amazed at how much time and effort Cage puts into fixing any bugs I find. Phantom3d's efforts in making the WM work so well with the V4 mesh is nothing less than awe inspiring- this really is a community effort- I for one am happy to be able to give back to the community. I hope to see more involvement.It does not have to be a huge time investement- anything helps.

This is an exciting time!

Does V4-WM have visible elbows (olecranon) yet? Or is this something I need to wrestle with on my own?

Quote - Does V4-WM have visible elbows (olecranon) yet? Or is this something I need to wrestle with on my own?

At this present time, Phantom3D is finishing an update for V4~WM.

He is working on all reported issues.

Good to hear K4~WM is on the line! :D

Beautifully written, lmk. This perfectly describes our home at PoserPlace. It's a place for creating. Phantom3D isn't secretive about his techniques, either: he offers the information freely to all who want to learn.

Those of you who have P9/PP2012 and who have a creative side, the best way you can all help, besides what lmk and Glitterati3D already stated, is to download the figures, and start making content for them. A nude figure is nice: a clothed figure shows care and loving. Share the love of those at PoserPlace and become part of the excitement. This is a golden opportunity to make Poser the strong program we all love and to show Phantom3D (Diogenes) and Cage just how grateful we are for all their hard work to make our favourite figures the best they could possibly be.

well said lmk

Question, not knowing anything about rigging or WM, would the WM for V3 work on Laura/Luke?

(I really hate the K4 kids).  

To be honest, Niles, you'd really have to invest a bit of time into what rigging and weight-mapping figures involves and also what optimal mesh design entails to understand the question. It almost looks like you're looking for a shortcut. You might be right, but would the solution be optimal? No, for the same reasons you hate K4.

For exactly those reasons.

When people do their homework, you get figures like V4-WM out of a deplorable mesh like V4's. This was an epic undertaking. Consider this a tinny (in Australia, "tinny" is commonly used as slang for a small open aluminium boat) trying to guide a tanker out to sea, and you get the idea.

Diogenes will never get the credit he deserves for this. It takes appreciation of what is involved to give that credit.

  :)  Not looking for shortcut, just a question?   Luke and Laura is from the same mesh as V3' right?

It's an interesting question.

There is no question that in order to completely take advantage of Poser weight-mapping all the Daz kludges (magnets and JCMs and that sort of rubbish) needs to be removed. And, based on experiences with V4, the figure probably needs re-rigging. Once the re-rig is done, the weight-mapping can start. And whether THOSE can be transfered to similar mesh figures is one for the experts. I'm still learning this.

Quote -   :)  Not looking for shortcut, just a question?   Luke and Laura is from the same mesh as V3' right?

No, they are from David 3.

Just keep in mind that these changes will not occur over night.  It does take quite some time to properly rig and weightmap one figure.  Sure, you can create your own version, but the purpose of this community effort is to standardize these old favorites and revive new interest in content which have been floating around for ages.  The 3D modelling game is changing either for better or worse, and we need a new direction to repurpose these investments.

The Gen3 figures were not made as morphs to be added to the basic V4 and M4 figures (as in the Gen4 figures). Each of the figures were different in significant ways. But, rigging and weight/bulge-mapping any one of these figures can provide a start to doing any of the other figures.

To get a figure that will take advantage of all the poser of P9/PP2012, requires that the figures be re-rigged from the ground up, then requires that weight-maps and bulge-maps be created without any conversion from the original joints. Unfortunately, the antiquated meshes cannot be altered or updated, because this would break all of the morphs.

As should be clear, these figures will then perform better in P9/PP2012, but will be inferior to figures that are made (mesh, rig, weight-maps, bulge-maps, UV-Maps, texture maps [including bump, displacement, and normal maps], morphs, poses, and content) to be fully Poser compliant and enabled.

The process of updating legacy figures is helping to create a new generation of Poser users with the skills needed to create the exceptional content that Poser and Poser users deserve. It is worth the effort, but the appreciation of the Poser community helps make the work worthwhile.

lmk

Quote - The Gen3 figures were not made as morphs to be added to the basic V4 and M4 figures (as in the Gen4 figures). Each of the figures were different in significant ways. But, rigging and weight/bulge-mapping any one of these figures can provide a start to doing any of the other figures.

To get a figure that will take advantage of all the poser of P9/PP2012, requires that the figures be re-rigged from the ground up, then requires that weight-maps and bulge-maps be created without any conversion from the original joints. Unfortunately, the antiquated meshes cannot be altered or updated, because this would break all of the morphs.

As should be clear, these figures will then perform better in P9/PP2012, but will be inferior to figures that are made (mesh, rig, weight-maps, bulge-maps, UV-Maps, texture maps [including bump, displacement, and normal maps], morphs, poses, and content) to be fully Poser compliant and enabled.

The process of updating legacy figures is helping to create a new generation of Poser users with the skills needed to create the exceptional content that Poser and Poser users deserve. It is worth the effort, but the appreciation of the Poser community helps make the work worthwhile.

lmk

Thanks for the answer and Big Thanks for the Team Working on the WMs.

We are clearing up some obligated projects. With the release of those projects the way will be cleared to turn to weight-maps for M4 and Kids4.

lmk

Quote - > Quote -   :)  Not looking for shortcut, just a question?   Luke and Laura is from the same mesh as V3' right?

No, they are from David 3.

I don't think that's quite an accurate statement.  All of the "unimesh" figures are, as the name states, from one mesh.  IIRC, only the Freak and M3 have different grouping, and can't share morphs with the others without some sort of hack.  Someone made one, I just forget about how it worked and all.   I think all the rest have the same mesh and grouping, including the baby, Hiro, David, and Luke and Laura.   But I could be wrong.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote -   :)  Not looking for shortcut, just a question?   Luke and Laura is from the same mesh as V3' right?

No, they are from David 3.

I don't think that's quite an accurate statement.  All of the "unimesh" figures are, as the name states, from one mesh.  IIRC, only the Freak and M3 have different grouping, and can't share morphs with the others without some sort of hack.  Someone made one, I just forget about how it worked and all.   I think all the rest have the same mesh and grouping, including the baby, Hiro, David, and Luke and Laura.   But I could be wrong.

Yep you are. ;) What I said is accurate. Luke, Laura, Matt and Mattie are derived from David 3.

This is really good news. I am looking forward to my old daz figures being weight mapped and re-rigged with scripts for clothing conversion too.  Wow!!!

The Gen3 figures come up in conversation at PoserPlace from time to time, but they are not presently on our schedule. We need to get the Gen4 line finished.

We hope in the process of doing Gen4, and Phanton3D/Diogenes' tutorials to recruit and train the talent necessary to run several projects to get legacy figures updated, while movong ahead with a new class of figures developed to be fully Poser compliant and enabled.

lmk

The V4~WM update and PoserPlace Outfitter have been released at PoserPlace, and at RDNA (other sites to follow as they are able). With this work out of the way, attention will turn next to M4 and Kids4. We will invest the time necessary to produce superior results in this project.

We hope that in the meantime, the Poser Community will take advantage of Antonia~Standard, Antonia~WM, V4~WM, and PoserPlace Outfitter. We would love to see what you can do posted in the galleries of your favorite web-sites. If it isn't too much trouble, please credit Poser 9 and Poser Pro 2012 as your rendering application, and you could also mention PoserPlace if you want.

Support for these figures will be coming from a number of different sources. So, be on the lookout for content in different web-stores. As has been mentioned, support encourages support, so we are very encouraged by those who are preparing products.

We believe that these figures, Outfitter, renders, and content will encourage people to buy or upgrade to P9/PP2012, and stimulate the Poser economy, which are two of our central objectives. And, everyone can contribute by showing what can be accomplished in the latest versions of Poser.

Thanks for trying out these figures, and utilities, and for the support and  encouragement. Poser people are really good folks.

lmk

Beta-Testing of M4~WM has resumed at PoserPlace. The project is till on track.

lmk

Nice to hear.

Excellent news :-)

My M4 is patiently awaiting his injections...

He'd just like to know if his, er, conforming package is getting weight mapped.

Or will that be a job for the Outfitter?

IIRC, another post did hint to reworking the rigging.  But, ATM, no official news.

Diogenes told me that at some point he would rig and weight-map the M4 conforming genital figure that is included with the Morphs++ package, available from DAZ3d for $29.95 (there is a PC discount). If I hear differently I will inform others.

Unfortunately, the M4 genital figure has a lot of body parts that are not named in the M4 figure, without a separate rig and set of weight-maps, the M4 setup would do little good for it. It isn't that the un-converted genitals would not work with a weight-mapped figure. One could conform it and copy the M4 joints (which works for most conforming hair figures). But, the genital figure needs a better rig, and weight-maps will most likely benefit its posing ability.

lmk

My M4 was lucky enough to get his ++ upgrades in the sale last month.

I expect the straight-forward conforming solution will be more than adequate for most situations M4 finds himself in...

It's the weight mapping of his base that he really needs... so he can keep up with the newfound flexibility of V4WM and Antonia WM ;)

recently found a D3 wm file load that produced some weird mapping glitches in poser 11 images soon

You can still use the Poser Place script to convert M4 to WM.  The bends are not perfect though.

I've been trying here is that image

O o

Something's wrong. I have that weightmapped D3, and there are no problems with the mapping.

I agree with randym77, I loaded Michael 3 textures and I had no problems.  It mapped exactly.  

Will decode another .Cr2 and check my parts files

reset the skinning to unimesh in Poser 11

Wow - you have done well!  Looks very good!

Have you tried clothes yet?

19th century suit I have a lot of that pre genesis DAZ stuff

Heavy visible seams inside of leg, hand, neck, and arm. Clearly visible even from a distance. Try setting texture filtering on textures to crisp or none. If that doesn't fix it, it's NOT a good mapping... at least by any rational standard of quality. Could be fixed via 3d painting/clone stamp though.

I was dealing with a very weird bug like mapping failure so yeah the seams are the seams from the canned DAZ images very at least it poses and doesn't turn inside out and spikey is progress there are a lot of extra poly's over that seam already I will turn off that body part before I render anymore problem did not survive a reboot and rinse reopen /relaunch open file cycle ended glitchy behavior thanks for the replies

Has the K4 version been done? Sorry I'm a little lost.

Weight mapping?  No, never done.

I did.

Actually a few years ago already.

Problem #1:

There is hardly a benefit, as Kids4 are rigged almost perfectly for a falloff sphere rigged figure.

Granted, the crotch area IS much better in my WM version, but it only really shows with extreme poses like a full split or bend.

(Blue: Original Kids4 - Green: Kids4 Weightmapped)

Problem #2:

Weightmapping involves a lot of smoothing.

Due to the Gen4's uneven mesh topology, smoothing the crotch area inadvertedly creates a very slight crease and a small bulge that might appear "genitial-like" in the right light.

A "decency" JCM can fix this, but it of course defeats the purpose of the weightmapping: Better posing without additional JCMs needed.

Yes, I weightmapped the Kids4 meshes like I did with V3, D3 and M4LOD, but in this day and age I definitely won't distribute what to an ill willed person might appear as an "anatomical correct" underaged figure, even if said "anatomical correctness" is the unintentional result of the limiations of Posers weightmapping tools.

Too much drama in the world for my taste already.

Still it's a shame, as this little endavour again showed me that Poser's weightmapping is just as capeable as Studio's.

We would just need a high quality mesh of our own to realize its full potential.

@ JoePublic: My apologies.  I wasn't aware of the existence of WM K4 although it was never released.  Have you ever examined the WM M4 as generated by the Poser Place program, the same program that has generated the popular WM V4?  I would be interested in your opinion on its conversion.

Hi hborre, really no apologies necessary. :-)

I don't think I never had a closer look at the Poser Place M4, but to be honest, mainly because I wasn't too impressed with the Poser Place V4WM in the first place.

(I had some good conversations with Phantom3D about weightmapping, but I had the impression that he did V4WM mainly because others pushed him to do it, not because she was near and dear to his heart like Antonia.)

Here's a comparison about my own weightmapped 17K V4LOD (back), the Poser Palace V4WM (middle) and a weightmapped V4 (front) distributed by AerySoul/AsShamin/Whatever they call thenselves now.

As you can see, both the Poser Palace as well as the AerySoul weightmaps still suffer from the dreaded "exploding butt" syndrome.  ;-)

As for M4, I did my own weightmap, again based on the lighter 17K LOD mesh.

I made all of my (released) weightmappes basically "opensource", so everyone wanting to modify and/or improve them is more than welcome to do so.

I think strictly commercially speaking, nothing but full Genesis compatibility could "save" Poser from oblivion. so I see all my work just as a "fun addition" for stubborn amateurs like me.

Still I think having our "very own" figure would be a tremendous help to make Poser attractive again.

But these figure should be based on Posers core strenghts, not rely on "latest greatest" or "professional" technology.

I'm currently fooling around with the Poser 5 DON mesh, given that "gender-fluidity" is now all the latest rage. ;-)

But seriously, Don would be a perfect candidate for "our own" Genesis mesh.

Lightweight, good built in muscle topology, easy accessible "front-back" mapping (Remember the days when anyone could create/modify their own textures without the need of complicated and expensive 3D painting programms?) that can use M2 textures by default. (As well as any DAZ texture that can be easily converted to M2)

There is also full Face-Room compatibility.

Throw in modern single-axis scaling, some better expression morphs (like Miki), a nicer and more realistic default shape (no JUDYs, please!) and of course some decent weighmapping.

Maybe I even go fancy and add a few polygons here and there for even more built in mesh detail.

Or do a Poser 11 high res morph.

Still not happy with the face, but I think I "exorcised" a lot of the Poser 5 "look" out of that mesh already.

Anyway, sorry for the "rambling". ;-)

As I said, I don't see a commercial future for Poser if it sticks with the way it has taken during the last 10 years or more.

But it's still fun to mess around with it and see how much life I can squeeze out of those vintage meshes.

3d painting software isn't complicated or expensive at all. Mudbox costs 10 bucks a month. Blender is free. It takes a couple hours to learn how to 3d paint in either for a complete noob. Skill is another thing entirely.

I for one would still use Poser even if there weren't a single prefab human figure available for it. But that's another long convoluted topic.

As far as the weightmap purist 'vilters-esque' opposition to JCM I just don't get it. I mean I do... but I don't. If it helps why not use it? We're in a Poser time frame now where people are willing to melt their graphics cards for grainy renders, what's a few mbs of morph overhead? Every weight mapped figure I've used could still use some help from JCMs from what I've seen. I won't name names.