I've been seeing a lot of people lately demanding credit when you use their texture/morph/idea etcetera. For some reason, this makes me sad. Creating a good looking image or animation can take long hours, and finding the right prop is a blessing, to be sure, but when you get the whole thing done, it's kind of hard to take another hour to try to back log where you got everything and who created it. Now, I see there are two schools of thought from contributors..one is extremely cool, "Use it however you want" to the the other, "Use it but take out a page in the Times to let everyone know I DID IT." I'm not trying to whine here, but I am curious how everyone really feels about this subject. I feel that the only thing in poser that is really propriety are Unique Characters and finished images/animations. There is a profound lack of useful things on the Poser discs. Many people who enter the poser world will eventually learn how to make props and clothes and texs and morph targets etc. I hope more people will take the cool route and just post it and say "Have Fun". Hats off to Allie for making the most useful item of the millenium and posting it in this spirit. (Does anyone NOT know Allie's hair when they see it???) -Darth_Logice

Um..I hate to whine but could you be sure to give credit to Jack for this forum? Thank you, PAN~ P.S. I'm JOKING! haha...see? Kidding! hehehe...(no more all nighters pan....no more..)

Everybody has the right to attach whatever useage rules to their stuff that they want. I have no problems with MiCo Games' rules as I know what kind of time they put into their excellent textures, and a simple mention of them or their site is really a fair trade. I personally don't want to be bothered by tracking people down, I would rather spend that time making more stuff :) So I don't put any restrictions on my morphs and such. Sure seeing your name in the credits of an image or post is cool, but the fact that people use my stuff is good enough for me :) This isn't an attack or anything on anyone or anything, just my own view on the matter. Tanja & Co: again nice work and well said!

I really hate politics, and I was somewhat hesitant to post this, but here goes anyway... You may very well have put plenty of time into your image(s), but one thing you seem to be forgetting is the time put into the prop you found to be a blessing. Depending on the model, hours turn into days and sometimes weeks. So the time you put into finding who helped you achieve your result is negated by the time you didn't spend building the textures/props/figures yourself. Credit is the least you can give. The thing that is saddening is the mentality that the people who don't/can't model think that the people that do/can owe them something... The creator of whatever they created has every right to put whatever restrictions/conditions on their creation as they see fit. In return the end user has every right not to use it because they can't agree to those conditions. Are you also suggesting that you would not take offense to someone basically "stealing" your image, which you spent hours building because they didn't feel it was worth it to find out who actually created it? My guess, which is probably pretty close to correct, is that even hobbyists aspire to establish a name for themselves. Not giving them due credit only hinders their efforts during your pursuit for acknowledgment for your image. Remember the price you are paying... do you really think those people who have helped you with their free stuff will continue to do half the work for you if you don't extend a simple acknowledgment? You are entitled to your opinions as am I, but perhaps you should look at it from the other side of the fence before you commit to the side your on? -Rob Trav: sorry had typos.... thank you for comment

Rob: Well said! and a damn good point! -Trav

Well, I hope I didn't come off as an anti-credit nazi. Not my intention. I guess I was just getting at what traveller said, time is better spent creating. (By the way, God Bless Traveller for wonderful Morphs and tutorials.) Personally, I post my creations exclusively to Renderosity. This place has become my new internet home. I know I have hit every sight, every link, everything that is here to see I've seen. I guess I feel that it stands to reason that everything I use, I've found here. Sorry if this is a oft-horse-corpse-beating topic, haven't seen it in here being only a month or so here. Why isn't MicroGames link posted over here----> on Web resources? -Darth_Logice

Rob-- I am trying to learn how to make models, props, clothes, etc. As money permits, I am going to Megahugebookstore to get all the advanced manuals for the programs I got. As it is, I cannot create so much as a new file in 3dsmax. But I am persistant, and when I do create stuff, even if it takes a year, it's a free-for-all. Chances are, if I create something, it's for me. I will make it for me and I will use it for what I'm doing. Then, it goes up here for everyone else too, because chances are, if I needed it, so does 85% of the rest of the Renderosity community. But you have a good point, I do wish to establish a name for myself here. In the long run, I hope to do this with my Character and her adventures. Hope I'm not coming off as argumentative, just having a philosophical discussion here...-Darth

AS I've said in the past. The only reason anyone posts things for free in the first place is to draw attention to themselves. Myself included. I do it to be helpful. Many do it for hero worship. The internet is a public place. If you don't want someone to use your creations in a certain way. DON'T POST IT!!!! I wish all of this give me credit stuff would just die already. I spent a year on my T-rex! If someone is selling it on a CD now. Then It's my fault for posting it to the web in the first place. I knew that when I posted it. As John Stossel says: "gimme a break" -ScottA

I can see what you mean Darth. You have a very valid point. Of course, I respect what MicoGames feels and would use their stuff accordingly. I think what you are trying to say is that you have every intention of mentioning everyone (something I always try to do) but there are times when we might overlook something. I, personally, keep forgetting to say that any model I make is exclusively Traveler morphed ;) It's just that when we DO forget someone, it's not intentional.

I can pretty much say that every image I produce is credited to Traveller's fantastic morphs, Allie's Hair, um...whoever made the P4 Nude Woman freckle Texture, and the Hip and Thigh boots Guy (or Gal) and virtually everyone that's written a tutorial. I downloaded a Microgames male texture or two, but I hesitate to use them not because I don't want to give them credit, but because I might FORGET to give them credit, then they would hate me and I would ruin it for everyone else who does use them and credit them accordingly. Basically, these files get put into their respective directories and they typically have a text file to say who done it. The text files are numerous, and scattered, and lost. -Darth

heya; it is hard to keep track of everything while you are creating. if you are working for a month or so on a file, on and off, and you try this, try that, no that doesn't work, delete that and try the other thing, modify this... heck, by the time you get through the three things you had by some guy are now seven different things from different people... and it's all in a haze...! :) there are things you can do to make this easier. Distributors: (people who make stuff and want credit!) 1: if you are adamant about receiving credit and/or links etc, do NOT post links to your stuff here in the free stuff section (or at pfo or at props guild or at poser world, etc etc etc). post them at your site on a page that contains all the stipulations that people must read before downloading. this way, you know the people who use your stuff know your policy. actually, if it were me, i'd post thumbnails to the free stuff, but link to my main download and conditions page. 2: DON'T name your readme file readme.txt. that is the surest-fire way to get it lost. if there is a readme.txt, i usually read it, but never extract it. name it after your main file. (ie: PanWare'sBrilliantThingYouCan'tLiveWithout.txt') 3: if it's a texture map, put your info on it. there's space, and it can't become lost or separated from your file. :) 4: use some product recognition tricks. first, give your creation a striking and catchy title. (like 'the incredible tack pack'). then, make a big splash ad for it (i was inspired by rena's big ads. with those, how can you forget who made all those greek deities!???!) this will enhance people's memory of what's yours and make it easier to remember when credit-typing time rolls around.

(part II... didn't know i was being long winded!) Artists: (who want to give credit) 1: read the readme's. and, if you don't want to worry about having to give credit, and/or you don't know if you'll ever do anything commercial with the item/image, then delete anything with too-stringent restrictions. don't use 'em. 2: organize the files. if the txt has a real name, extract it alongside it's main file. (like trex.txt and trex.obj, etc.) you can create directories for especially prolific creators (ie: anton's objs usually extract to the directory 'antons_people'). i have also heard of someone who names the poser library files with the creator's name (ie: bloodsong's swan). now the creator's name is in your face every time you go to use the model! this will enhance your memory! ;) 3: keep a project log. (okay, so this is kinda like work.) you can keep a txt file, named after your pz3, that lists what you have used so far. (or what you have deleted, etc.) hey, then just copy and paste for credits.

(Stands up and Applauds Bloodsong for forty-five minutes) Very well said! This is what I had in mind but was too inarticulate to say. Bravo! (Throwing Roses) -Darth_Logice

Well, to me it is a matter of simple etiquette. If we are indeed the community we seem to be becoming, some things are simple going to have to be left in the realm of being "polite"...One cannot be enforced to always say "thank you" but it does mark one as a more well mannered beast when one remembers to. At the same time, if one DEMANDS to be thanked for everything, that verges on personality problems. If your going to sell it, sell it...if you put it out for free, be very pleased if someone thanks you but dont get your undies in a knot if they dont. Many of us are rank amateurs and may have a differient sense of proper behavior comparedd to those (such as MicoGames) who are professional and form whom being credited is very important. In other words...some of us are boistrous, noisy kids having a good time.....Lets remember to say "please" and "thank you" like our mommies taught us as much as possible....but I wont rend my hair if I forget once in a while.... Scarab <-standing on a very small soapbox Paul "...Are you suggesting that a son of the House Atreides might be an animal?" Reverend Mother "...I am suggesting he might be human...."

I agree with everyone LOL......what I mean is if folks want credit thats cool and if they don't thats cool too, you have to go by what the model maker says....one realy cool thing that the remifograph (spelled something like that) models have is there name in 3d with the model now if you could do that in poser then go deleting all the text at the last minute that would be cool :o)........though the model in qyestion was about 60mb so the text wouldn't matter too much but get a few of those in poser and it might strat affecting the app.........i'm rambling aren't i LOL...one last thing personally i'd rather get a mail with a url in so i can look at the pic than credit.........Steve PS you could resave the cr2 pp2 with the persons name in it ie. mary.cr2 would become mary by bob.cr2......just a thought

Hear hear.... Scarab

Wow... Hmmm... my stance on this? I am an old man and sometimes forget to give credit in my main post for something. Couple that to the fact that I have over 5 gigs of stuff collected for poser (YES I AM A POSER PACK RAT :o) )and sometimes I don't have the READ ME anymore to refer too. So if I pull out something I downloaded 7 months ago, chances are, I don't really remember who did it, so I hunt around on the PFO and here and try to find who did it. If I can no longer find it, I still mention at least where I got it, so that the person who did it can speak up. No in the matter of some of the characters that I make for certain things, usually none of it is really mine. It may be tweaked to my liking by me, but it still isn't Just mine. For example Anton's Textures. I love them, I change or modify them (sometimes allot!!), but they are still Anton's and I still give him credit because no matter how much I change it, it's still his as far as I am concerned. Yes, sometimes I feel like I am typing out a huge Credit list longer than one you would find in a movie. Sometimes it is a major pain in my butt and sometimes more so if I might've forgotten to add someone's work to the list and get blasted for it. But I do it out of appreciation to the people who have done the work that I am enjoying not to stroke anyone's ego. At least that is why I do it... Jack

I read some good points about making a text file with the credit info. That's a darn good idea. But many times, a modeler honestly doesn't care, and others care alot. They want to share, but want the recognition they helped in some way. Someone else made the point of wanting to draw attention to themselves. It all boils down to the people involved, from the part creator to the puzzle assembler. (Dunno what I mean? Ok- Part creator is like, the creator of Props, textures, etc. The puzzle assembler is the person that uses all of those parts and puts them together to make one figure, pic, animation, etc.) Myself, I didn't include a readme.txt with my bat'telh prop. Why? It's just a little thing, not hard to create is why. Many others can make them too. Probably just as good if not better. So why should I yell about credit over it? That thing isn't special. On the other hand, something like MiCo's textures are special, or Travelers stuff, etc etc. Those things on a character that are plainly special- Textures, super duper props, morphs that totally change the look of a character, etc should credited to the originator. But we're back to some people that don't care abot crediting others, some people that don't care if they get credited, etc. It just depends on the person. If you see a pic or something that has your texture or prop in it, and there is no credit, then you can't really say too much because- 1. You released it for PD (Public Domain) 2. You can't remove it from that person's HD or pic. Put simply, it's nice to credit. But not everyone will do it. That's sad, but the truth.

I think crediting folks may come naturally after doing this for a certain amount of time. For the first five months that I was downloading stuff like crazy, I was just unzipping stuff then trashing the original zip files. After rapidly filling up HD, I started re-zipping and storing offline. This became a file management nightmare of duplicate files and missing parts. Since then I keep all original downloaded .zips, along with a thumbnail, offline on cd's. And, I simply add the source's name to the file as I download it. Again, I did this initially not so much to credit people, but primarily so I could relocate the original source months later. i.e. "wheelchair_newc.zip" & "wheelchair_newc.jpg" So, whether or not these are the authors, at least it tells me by whom they were posted. And now, since I know where everything came from, it's easy to give credit. Too easy huh!? - also pretty handy in assisting others looking for stuff. QIUZ TIME: for example, you've seen the venetian blinds in a hundred images but can you recall whose they were? Trimax's

Allerleirauh, where did I say simply uploading it makes it PD? I said when the person releases it PD. Sheesh.

Yeah, there's a few jerks out there, but I think that most people try to be honest. I try to give credit if I use another's prop(s). If I ever upload something and don't give credit for it, I hope that the prop creator trusts that it was an honest mistake and simply sends me a little reminder. I'll be glad to correct the omission. I think that most people who don't give credit either don't realize that they should, or can't remember who created the original. I'm also a bit of a download pack rat. (Jack beats me, though.) I keep all of the original .zip files, but some do not have readme files. Mine are organized by subject. If I organized by artist, it would be almost impossible for me to find anything as I take a bit from everywhere. If you want credit for your props, please make it easy to find/remember who you are and that you want credit. Not only will this help you get credit, but it will make it easier for us newbies to use the props with a clear conscience. Thanks!

can we please try to keep this from turning into a squable people? Thanks Jack

This your reply to my reply to your reply? Cuz I still don't see where you get that I said that.

I also would welcome seeing a few renders of 3D scenes that people have made using my models.

I always try to credit people who's stuff appears in my pictures but, like Jack, I've got things I downloaded about a year ago (only 4 gig but I'm fast catching up LOL) and the readme has simply gone poof. To my mind, it's simply good manners to give credit where it's due. Not a dig at anyone, simply my 2 pennyworth (about 3 cents) Paul

I simpley avoid the whole issue. The stuff I have mad avalible is stuff I don't mind people using in any way they want. The stuff I have made for my professional uses of Poser are not reliesed. For those people who are trying to make a living at this, I don't re-distribute. Those who have said "use as you see fit I don't post without asking (I posted a notice for folks to let me know if I could "mirror" their stuff - with due credit of course). Basically, if I made it and it's so good I want everyone to know that I did it I don't share because I know people will use it and forget. If it's something that I made that might be usefull and fun, I post it. (Just adding to the chaos)

Again and as just mentioned, this all must be regarded in the frame of manners. And yes, to some extent if something is put up for download, no questions asked, "here, take it" it does become Public Domain within limitations. We obviously must not SELL the mesh, prop, texture to someone else nor should we claim that we MADE it ourselves. But it's kind of reasonable that we can use those things to make pictures, animations, etc. And we should be able to distribute, use, or (yes, even sell) artwork or animations done using those items....a picture of an item is not the item itself. To state otherwise would be to argue that, I bought or was given a beautiful plant, that I could not subsequently paint or photograph the plant and distribute or sell my art or photos. Scarab <-needs a liedown now