So why is it that every product I click on is for Daz Studio? If you want Daz shit, go to Daz.com. Have Poser users become some kind of lepers?

Renderosity is a brokerage for vendors AND it also owns Poser. It creates an issue sometimes. Make sure you select New Poser Products from the Marketplace menu, and there is a filter if you do a search for something to display only Poser products.

Best I can give you from my own experience,  takes a bit to get used to.

Because it sells, and everything that sells on this site supports Poser whether it's meant to be used in that program or not. The vendors here aren't freeloaders, a hefty percentage of what you pay for each product goes to Renderosity. They feature what brings in the money. The vast majority of vendors include enough information to discern which program it's for in the product description, and some even include it in the promo thumbnail, so finding out it's for Daz *after* you click on it is easy to avoid. But like Rhia said, it's fairly easy to filter out, in multiple ways. I certainly don't think that stuff for Poser is a dead art, because a bit more than half of my "the artist you're following released a new product" emails are for Poser.

I use quite a bit of Poser stuff in DS. Just sayin' 

Back when I was using DS 3 Advanced, 95% (or better) of my Runtime was made of up Poser compatible products.

Miss B posted at 7:37 PM Sun, 25 September 2022 - #4445274

Back when I was using DS 3 Advanced, 95% (or better) of my Runtime was made of up Poser compatible products.

Maybe the Poser developers could arrange to make DS products compatible with Poser? I know. It's a pipe-dream.

It is, because it is DAZ that refuses to negotiate.

Rhia474 posted at 7:40 PM Mon, 26 September 2022 - #4445330

It is, because it is DAZ that refuses to negotiate.

Yeah, THAT!!  ~shakes head~

That's the general problem today, isn't it? Everybody is in love with the smell of their own farts.

As I said in another thread: Selling DS assets helps keep the lights on, so there's that.

Given its interest in promoting Poser, I have no doubt that Renderosity would discontinue selling DS assets if that was the most profitable course of action.

Rhia474 posted at 7:40 PM Mon, 26 September 2022 - #4445330

It is, because it is DAZ that refuses to negotiate.

Actually it originated with Poser - way before Rendo bought it.  The very reason that DAZ Studio was created was because they needed to insure that they could continue forward when Poser began charging an exorbitant amount of money for full compatibility in the software (They realized they were losing out on income generated by content - hence Content Paradise) and then the software sat stagnating for years.  Later the dson convertor was created and offered for free so that DAZ items could work in Poser.

When Poser again was stagnating and studio and DAZ products were advancing that system (dson) didn't work as well and it wasn't really feasible for them to put time and resources into conversion products.  Especially when Studio is free and Poser isn't.  With Poser stagnating or doing bad upgrades (Poser 5??) for as many years as it did, 2 separate times (before the last period when their department was being disassembled/moved and then Rendo bought it), there was no real reason to put the resources into a conversion system for what appeared to be a dying product.

There are still major difference between the products for the 2 softwares.  G9 will likely increase that gap.

If DAZ isn't working to get or allow the usability across platforms now it's likely due to a longer history of bad blood that began around Poser 5 (iirc) and has gone beyond that now to a case of how their figures work and how they intend for them to work going forward.  No one wants to have their products, particularly a flagship product like their Genesis figures, work less than as intended in order to work in another software.

I loved Poser, was a diehard Poser user and hold no grudges against it, it's really just a matter of what sells for me. Also an inability to get superfly renders that look as good as what I get in studio within a reasonable time period - most of my renders take an hour or less, many of my promos in studio take about 15 - 20 minutes but last time I tried Poser's superfly I couldn't get that look after several hours. For me it's not feasible because if I can't get a great look for my products than I can't expect others to, and I hate that because Poser was my first love.

Ultimately the fact is that Renderosity was a 3D Asset store and forum long before they bought Poser.  At one point, when DAZ Studio was new, they were actively recruiting for DAZ Studio creators, it's how I ended up moving from Poser to DAZ.  (originally I couldn't even use Studio and had to buy an upgraded system and graphics card)  If that hadn't paid the bills no one would have stayed with it.

3-DArena posted at 11:57 AM Thu, 29 September 2022 - #4445470

Rhia474 posted at 7:40 PM Mon, 26 September 2022 - #4445330

It is, because it is DAZ that refuses to negotiate.

Actually it originated with Poser - way before Rendo bought it.  The very reason that DAZ Studio was created was because they needed to insure that they could continue forward when Poser began charging an exorbitant amount of money for full compatibility in the software (They realized they were losing out on income generated by content - hence Content Paradise) and then the software sat stagnating for years.  Later the dson convertor was created and offered for free so that DAZ items could work in Poser.

When Poser again was stagnating and studio and DAZ products were advancing that system (dson) didn't work as well and it wasn't really feasible for them to put time and resources into conversion products.  Especially when Studio is free and Poser isn't.  With Poser stagnating or doing bad upgrades (Poser 5??) for as many years as it did, 2 separate times (before the last period when their department was being disassembled/moved and then Rendo bought it), there was no real reason to put the resources into a conversion system for what appeared to be a dying product.

The timeline you state above is very condensed and in some cases correlates things that happened in different times. DAZ Studio 1 was released in 2005. Content Paradise didn't exist until 2009. The creation of DAZ Studio had nothing to do with Content Paradise or the cost of Poser.

Need to remember ... DAZ is primarily a CONTENT site that (at that time) was in need of Software.  Poser is a SOFTWARE company that needs content. Initially it was a perfect union.  When Poser 5 was released in 2003 I think, it was buggy and was not a well-received upgrade. That's what spurred the development of DAZ Studio. 

The future of Poser 5 and beyond was uncertain at the time.No Poser, no potential content sales. From a business standpoint, DAZ needed to create or find another alternative. I'd do the same thing in their shoes.

I didn't use Genesis 1 (didn't really like the unified male/female mesh, to be honest) ... but I don't think DSON was needed until Genesis 2, definitely Genesis 3. The DAZ Studio wikipedia page says that the Genesis 2 platform was launched in 2011.

To add to the complexity of this situation, DAZ came under new ownership in 2009 and the key people that were involved with DAZ Studio and figure development were later let go. Chris Creek and Lisa Buckalew founded Hiveware in 2013, and Dawn and Dusk were released with native support for BOTH DAZ Studio and Poser.

There are still major difference between the products for the 2 softwares.  G9 will likely increase that gap.

From a technical standpoint as relates to Poser, there doesn't seem to be much difference between G8 and G9. Rigging/skeleton between G8 and G9 is very different, which even breaks backward compatility with Genesis 8 from what I can see. But won't know more until G9 is released so this is a guess based on the G9 presentation.

If DAZ isn't working to get or allow the usability across platforms now it's likely due to a longer history of bad blood that began around Poser 5 (iirc) and has gone beyond that now to a case of how their figures work and how they intend for them to work going forward.  No one wants to have their products, particularly a flagship product like their Genesis figures, work less than as intended in order to work in another software.

Looking at this again from a business standpoint, at the time Genesis 2 was released, weight mapping wasn't supported in either Poser or DAZ Studio. That came later in 2011 with both programs (Poser 9 (released in September 2011) and DAZ Studio's Genesis platform support around the same time). I think Genesis 2 was released when DS only had TriAX weight mapping.  Genesis 3 not only used a different method of rigging, but also an entire figure SYSTEM that would not be a trivial task for Poser developers to support.

And that is why we are in the situation we are in.

From a user standpoint, Poser would be at the mercy of having to update Poser software for each Genesis figure release, so Poser support for the latest and greatest would always be behind.

From a development standpoint, the Poser developers would always be playing catch-up to incorporate newer Genesis changes. I don't see that as being a win-win for Poser. For them it would be all cost to support sales of a figure that is only sold at DAZ.

No bad blood, It's reality. Both companies need and want to stay in business. At some point, I think each company had to decide what was best for each to survive independently. 

I tried to reply to this while looking at the timelines for everything involved. There were a lot of underlying circumstances beyond "bad blood" that made this all happen. Unfortunately for all involved, Poser and DAZ Studio users are passionate and vocal. The DS/Poser wars always prove volatile, like political or religious discussions. I have no skin in the game, I have used and supported both.  But I do always try to bring the discussion back to dates and facts. 

Peace, out 8-)

Thank you very much for the facts and especially emphasizing that this is business, not wish fulfillment on both sides.

It's a tough thing to post about. I meant no attacks on anyone here. I just wanted to point out that there were a lot of moving parts to when and why things happened the way they did. Thanks for understanding. 8-)

I intentionally condensed the timelines because it's over 2 decades lol and I was going off memory (my original account here doesn't even exist anymore).  DAZ studio had nothing to do with CP - CP had to do with the loss of income on content. Although put in place by Curious Labs, the discussions for the storefront and regarding wanting some income off content was going on behind the scenes prior to that.

There was definite resentment over content, at least the people that I dealt with for both reviews, interviews & just chit chat vocalized it. As did the CP staff that I worked with for commissions.  As you know DAZ had produced the base figures for Poser initially (originally when they were a branch of Zygote) but no longer were due to behind the scenes drama - different situations that most definitely led to & fed bad blood at first.  Not all of the behind the scenes drama is on the wiki page LOL. (is any of it?)  Basically people bought the software and that was all the income for years from each individual, but content was selling like crazy (and back then at much higher costs than what we see now) and it was a constant source of income that they weren't getting. Lack of, and/or limited, funding caused the stagnating of software as well as the rushed and doomed Poser 5 (because they needed an influx on income).

Prior to Content Paradise and DAZ Studio the Poser developers wanted a huge amount of money to make the DAZ figures compatible for the facial animation (I didn't sleep well last night and can't recall what that was called inside Poser - face room?) it wasn't feasible. (I believe it was MetaCreations at that point) . This was as a way to get a bit of the content pie, so to speak and was the original "bad blood" that occurred that I was referencing that I specifically stated "and has gone beyond that now to a case of how their figures work and how they intend for them to work going forward." They explained it as extra work, but the price was exorbitant per figure. That exact "negotiation" changed the relationship between Poser and DAZ.  Basically they underestimated how much their software had begun to rely on content and the content needed base figures - which DAZ excels at.  It's obviously no longer what the issue is, but it was part of some initial issues in negotiating before DAZ Studio was created and why "Posette" and "Dork" were replaced by Jessi & James, then Sydney & Simon.  When looking back at how things developed that time frame of negotiation between the 2 companies, that specific demand, was the beginning of division between them that many were unaware of.  Both parties blamed the other and both had valid points.

People are always so fast to state that DAZ won't negotiate or that it's on DAZ to make their stuff work in Poser, but they did that - it's how they started out.  They didn't want to alienate their Poser users and they tried to continue to cater to them until it was no longer financially & technologically feasible to do so.  That's also not to say that DAZ is the best and blah blah blah. Just that when it all started this wasn't the path that DAZ intended.

I did not state that dson was needed off the bat - I was literally condensing it all to show that when it was needed DAZ provided it, and why they no longer do - it isn't feasible, it limited the full usability of their figures as intended. It's now completely a business decision.

DAZ was able to invest in pushing Studio forward to industry standards because they had a consistent and reliable source of income in their content, plus by pushing constantly forward it generates an always evolving source of income in regards to content, creating a financial loop. The differing corporations that owned the Poser software didn't have that.

So not only would Poser always be playing catch up (which is exactly the point here, that for so long Poser was behind in how the industry was moving forward), but DAZ would constantly be trying to keep backwards compatibility.  Which isn't financially sound for either party at this point and given the availability of DAZ Studio isn't really required from their business POV because one can just download the software to use their products.

I was at no time stating that the cost of Poser had to do with the creation of DAZ Studio, but rather that limiting their forward moving figures in a way that worked in Poser, at the time, wasn't worth having the figures perform in a way less than intended - because DAZ Studio & it's upgrades/newer versions is free, as are the Genesis figures. So there was no prohibition on using the figures as intended, if you can use Studio you can use the figures. Whereas if there was a Poser-centric figure that you wanted to use you'd have to spend a couple hundred dollars just to get the software to even start down that path so it needs to be a fabulous figure to draw in new users.  Studio made it easy & compelling for new users to take up this very addictive 3D "life" they could just download and try and of course then they were hooked on content.

None of that affects the relationship between DAZ and Renderosity as the current owners of Poser, but it did affect the momentum of the different softwares and the beginning of the initial division.

I do believe the best chance for Poser to survive is it's connection to Renderosity, I don't believe that it's being done in any way that can compete with DAZ or DAZ Studio - for several reasons that I won't voice publicly - all are fixable, all can be addressed - but I doubt they will be  (it would not require giving up DAZ content in the store for income generation either).   Currently DAZ has the ability to attract more of a prosumer which increases their revenue and allows them to keep moving forward and unfortunately keeps Poser playing catch up.  They are almost 2 different markets and both softwares appeal to different types of users. 

I've owned every version (except 5) of Poser that came out since I started, many versions were gifted to me for review or as part of an agreement for commission work, until this last version.  I did buy Poser 2014 & La Femme, I had every intention of creating for her and for Poser (my first love).  It wasn't feasible and so I couldn't justify buying yet another upgrade.

I personally think that trying to get DAZ products into Poser isn't the issue.  Having products for Poser that are as good is the issue and it's the solution.  Don't have users craving what they see but they can't use or create, offer them fantastic things. Create visuals and products that are modern, that are showcased in the same way.  There's a reason that people look at DAZ Studio products and wish they could use those. 

I can't speak to G9 features until it's release - however, I can say that I personally love G9 and how it works/looks. I didn't see the G9 presentation so I'm not sure what was covered in that.  If I weren't planning to at least partially retire this year (I've been saying that for 3 years though...) I'd be quite excited about it. Truthfully if it's usable in Poser someone will convert it.

Ultimately though the complaints about Renderosity being a "poser site" are short sighted and overlook that the site was always a 3D, and even a 2D content site.  What sells is what will be offered because the site can't be sustained on Poser content alone, at least not for the foreseeable future. Unless Renderosity manages to attract more prosumers to Poser and their own flagship figures that will stay the case.

Frankly there is nothing wrong with that, it allows Renderosity to generate income from 2 bases and the store is easy to navigate by selecting software of choice at the top or filtering by software. Content creators can create for whichever software appeals to them and to their customer base.  The Renderosity staff and programmers have made it relatively easy to filter for one's specific software.

Dang I had a post here and went to edit it and I accidentally deleted it. LOL

Just a repost to say that I agree that Rendo's involvement of Poser puts it BACK into the hands of people that care about it. After Smith Micro made the dumb move of letting the original Poser team go in 2016, they (Smith Micro) put it into the hands of programmers that had little to no experience with the software and it showed. The updates that Rendo has done since are slowly but surely moving Poser back in the right direction.

Though it seems like forever, I think the tide is finally turning and I don't think Poser is done yet. Hell, people have been predicting Poser's demise since the Poser 5 days and it's still here. 8-)

Forum glitches lol.

I don't think Poser is dying off anytime soon.  They've been saying that since Poser 4, it may stagnate for awhile but it always rises back up.

I just think it's time to stop A) complaining about which software the products at a 3D Store are for - it's a smorgasbord at Renderosity and always was & B) stop wishing for Studio products to work in Poser and instead have Poser creators create the visuals and types of products that people are wishing for. 

Let's see more dynamic clothing, let's see dynamic lighting. Let's get reasonable render times for these things.

I've considered going back into Poser to putz with stuff, especially as retiring means that I'm not really caring about mass creation.  I don't even have it installed anymore though.  Maybe I'll open it up and mes around some day

Dang, I came back to see a gatekeeper v gatekeeper exchange and instead found actual discourse. Welp, back to facebook then. :D

My added two cents is that I shop artists more than I shop stores. Some of my favorite people here make identical content for both platforms, which I don't really see anywhere else. I don't use Poser, but I've heard about it for 20 years. Somehow it managed to go that long without going the way of megacorp buyout or douchey gimmicks like crypto (or if they have, they've kept it well compartmentalized). That said, I also think the community that Poser has built up over the years is a keener, more patient bunch (most of the time) and I deliberately come back here to actively support that with my wallet. Maybe a miracle will happen and I'll have the money to invest in both worlds, and if that day comes, I already have a backup wishlist ready to go.

Lemme buy my Genesis in peace, man.

>>>> Dang, I came back to see a gatekeeper v gatekeeper exchange and instead found actual discourse. Welp, back to facebook then. :D

There is no Dana. Only Zuul

LOL