Yeah, that's what I thought. For a second there I was hopeful, le sigh. Content creation is so different from what people buy Poser for and requires other programs to build...definitely not why ppl get into this hobby. Content creation is an income stream, not something you get into for fun. I think, at least. It's an additional job. Probably why people don't just say 'hey, screw this, no one builds decent historical clothing, let me whip  it up', lol.

Rhia474 posted at 8:14 AM Tue, 14 March 2023 - #4458397

Yeah, that's what I thought. For a second there I was hopeful, le sigh. Content creation is so different from what people buy Poser for and requires other programs to build...definitely not why ppl get into this hobby. Content creation is an income stream, not something you get into for fun. I think, at least. It's an additional job. Probably why people don't just say 'hey, screw this, no one builds decent historical clothing, let me whip  it up', lol.

I love making historical clothing, especially medieval era clothing. But it's "niche" and doesn't sell as well as even real-world clothing does. And even real-world clothing doesn't sell as well as the skimpwear that most people gravitate toward.

Sure, I can try to create stuff for V4. But after 18 years of V4 content, you'd be hard-pressed to find anything that she doesn't already have, which means you try to create something that fills a void. And typically, filling a void also means "niche." And reduced sales as a result.

In my case it doesn't matter much, I use content sales to supplement retirement income for "rainy day" type expenses. And even to cover software upgrades now and then. But looking at this from the perspective of someone whose content income is their bread and butter, it's not practical to design content for an 18 year old figure that already has pretty much everything. I'm just trying to be objective and honest here. I don't want to cause a firestorm .. but "it is what it is". 8-(

So ... let's go back to medieval clothing as an example. Let's say you create a set of clothing that consists of 7 pieces of clothing, all which layer over each other. Vest over shirt, jacket over vest, shirt tucks and untucks from pants, boots over pants, you get the idea. Each of those clothing items has to be modeled, UV'd, and textured with at least three different material options for variety. Then you have to test each layer of clothing with various morphs and poses to make sure that pokethrough is minimized. After that you have to create all the library files so that users can use the product easily. And then there are the promo renders and marketing stuff. By the time all is said and done you are talking 2-4 weeks of work, depending on the complexity of the outfit. So let's continue with worst case.

So now, how to price it? If this is your primary source of income, 15 dollars is not an unreasonable hourly wage these days. At 4 weeks of time, 15 dollars an hour is 2400 dollars. Since most content marketplaces take 50 percent cut, that means the product would need to sell at least 4800 dollars worth to cover the time invested in making the content. If the product is priced at 20 dollars, that would mean it would have to sell 240 copies to cover that 4 weeks of development time at a reasonable wage, regardless of the figure being designed for "Niche" products don't sell anywhere near that, sorry to say.

I've tried to explain this objectively, and without attacking anyone's opinions.  I'm sure users would love a "make content" button in addition to a "make art" button. But unfortunately, there is a lot more involved to creating content than many realize. 

Oooohhh, can I play this game?

Imagine a new user.

If they were to use LF or LH (or any other post-V4 figure).

Does they have any normal clothes?

Nope - it is pretty much lingerie, fetish clothing, or casual summer wear.  Why, don't you like all your art taking place in strip clubs or bedrooms?

Do they have any characters other than early 20's Caucasians?

Yes - we have 1 old Caucasian woman, 1 old Caucasian male, and a couple of other ethnic characters - why would you need more than 1 or 2?

I see you haven't been to my store :)

And V4 has lots of those because she has lots of content, period. Most of the stuff coming out for V4 was ALSO young white women and clothing that prudes would call "slutwear" too. It's what sells easy. It's not what the creators like making - it's the other way around, it's what sells more.

And it all, still, comes down to the same thing: V4 came when Poser was in its golden era, lots of users, lots of vendors, and she reigned supreme for over ten years. Can't really compare to the market now.

My Lolita Dress sold over 200 copies when I originally made it for V4, back when I was an "unknown" vendor among huge names. Now that pretty much every current Poser user has heard of me, my Lolita Dress for La Femme (EXACTLY same dress, just updated for Superfly as well) sold around 80 copies. Why? Because not nearly as many people using Poser. And not nearly as many people using Poser means not nearly as many people creating content for Poser, which I'm turn means not nearly as many character and wardrobe options.

And ALL that ignores my entire point: having the OPTION to choose between new tech/ease of use or more content is good. I was just debating the whole argument that there shouldn't be new figures because we have V4. You'll always have V4. She's already there. You have the option to keep using her. The rest of us who don't like her would like the option to have something with the level of realism/quality that can be achieved with Genesis8, for example.

And god, yes, Aery Soul's shoes are too far hard to fit. They were ages ahead to everyone else. I'd drool over each of those too.

Honestly, personally I prefer going fantasy too, but LF was missing so much of the basics I ended up doing very little fantasy. Kinda went every one of my characters has a fantasy twist option in them.

@DCArt and @Afrodite-Ohki, thank you for sharing your creator experience and thoughts. I know you discussed this elsewhere a few years back and I am thankful that you're patient enough to repeat it again.

Rhia474 posted at 11:01 PM Mon, 13 March 2023 - #4458375

Really? Can you point me to a single tutorial that explains how to create a pair of pants in Poser itself? Or a shirt? A serious question.

Rhia474 posted at 8:14 AM Tue, 14 March 2023 - #4458397

Yeah, that's what I thought. For a second there I was hopeful, le sigh. Content creation is so different from what people buy Poser for and requires other programs to build...definitely not why ppl get into this hobby. Content creation is an income stream, not something you get into for fun. I think, at least. It's an additional job. Probably why people don't just say 'hey, screw this, no one builds decent historical clothing, let me whip  it up', lol.

Therein lies part of the problem. A lot of people want/need content that is somewhat "niche."

I love making historical clothing, especially medieval era clothing. But it's "niche" and doesn't sell as well as even real-world clothing does. And even real-world clothing doesn't sell as well as the skimpwear that most people gravitate toward.

Sure, I can try to create stuff for V4. But after 18 years of V4 content, you'd be hard-pressed to find anything that she doesn't already have, which means you try to create something that fills a void. And typically, filling a void also means "niche." And reduced sales as a result.

In my case it doesn't matter much, I use content sales to supplement retirement income for "rainy day" type expenses. And even to cover software upgrades now and then. But looking at this from the perspective of someone whose content income is their bread and butter, it's not practical to design content for an 18 year old figure that already has pretty much everything. I'm just trying to be objective and honest here. I don't want to cause a firestorm .. but "it is what it is". 8-(

So ... let's go back to medieval clothing as an example. Let's say you create a set of clothing that consists of 7 pieces of clothing, all which layer over each other. Vest over shirt, jacket over vest, shirt tucks and untucks from pants, boots over pants, you get the idea. Each of those clothing items has to be modeled, UV'd, and textured with at least three different material options for variety. Then you have to test each layer of clothing with various morphs and poses to make sure that pokethrough is minimized. After that you have to create all the library files so that users can use the product easily. And then there are the promo renders and marketing stuff. By the time all is said and done you are talking 2-4 weeks of work, depending on the complexity of the outfit. So let's continue with worst case.

So now, how to price it? If this is your primary source of income, 15 dollars is not an unreasonable hourly wage these days. At 4 weeks of time, 15 dollars an hour is 2400 dollars. Since most content marketplaces take 50 percent cut, that means the product would need to sell at least 4800 dollars worth to cover the time invested in making the content. If the product is priced at 20 dollars, that would mean it would have to sell 240 copies to cover that 4 weeks of development time at a reasonable wage, regardless of the figure being designed for "Niche" products don't sell anywhere near that, sorry to say.

I've tried to explain this objectively, and without attacking anyone's opinions.  I'm sure users would love a "make content" button in addition to a "make art" button. But unfortunately, there is a lot more involved to creating content than many realize. 

Rhia474 posted at 10:50 AM Tue, 14 March 2023 - #4458405

@DCArt and @Afrodite-Ohki, thank you for sharing your creator experience and thoughts. I know you discussed this elsewhere a few years back and I am thankful that you're patient enough to repeat it again.

Yours included. 8-)

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 10:52 AM Tue, 14 March 2023 - #4458406

Rhia474 posted at 11:01 PM Mon, 13 March 2023 - #4458375

Really? Can you point me to a single tutorial that explains how to create a pair of pants in Poser itself? Or a shirt? A serious question.

I've been talking to staff folk about tutorials lately. Thinking about making some, after I'm done with my current project that's not leaving me any time to breathe. I too feel we seriously need stuff like that.

Poser rigging and MAT creation, yeah, they would be useful. Also making existing tutorials easier to find would be helpful as well.

Rhia474 posted at 11:01 PM Mon, 13 March 2023 - #4458375

Really? Can you point me to a single tutorial that explains how to create a pair of pants in Poser itself? Or a shirt? A serious question.

Part 1 is here:

https://www.renderosity.com/premium-tutorials/141/lfdevrig1-gettingstarted

There are 7 parts in all. Covers everything from bone and weight transfers, to editing JCMs and FBMs.  Those are probably the most comprehensive tutorials I can think of that cover rigging content for LF.

AmbientShade posted at 7:45 PM Mon, 13 March 2023 - #4458359

Honest question:

Why don't more people learn how to create content?

It's not rocket science.

If you can use Poser you can create Poser content and learn how to make the items you're not finding in the store.

It's not as difficult as you might think it is. Time consuming and frustrating at times but not difficult. It's much easier to do today than it was in the days of V4 and earlier. Not just in terms of Poser's own creation tools but in the modeling software.

If you aren't happy with the content that's available you could learn to make your own and share it, either free or commercially and we could see less arguments about only seeing certain types of content in the store.

'Rosity has a bunch of tutorial videos on how to use poser as a customer but very little in terms of how to build content for poser.

We could have discussions devoted to learning how to rig a piece of clothing or texture a custom hair model properly.

2.  It is much, much easier (and cheaper, and faster) to simply run my clothing content through a conversion program and touch up with the morph brush.  For the end user, the end product doesn't have to be good enough to sell - it has to be good enough for the image at hand.

You do remember why the fitting room was added to Poser, don't you?  The Poser team was very up front about it - vendors don't support Poser figures not named V4/M4.  It is much, much easier to git gud with WW, CrossDresser, or the Fitting room than it is to reinvent the wheel.

Whenever you launch the two figures you are working on - they will have a vast collection of clothing content (sans shoes) within a day in my runtimes.  I don't depend on vendors - they only make what they are personally interested in, and I don't do pin up art anymore.

When I got the hang of WW back in the Sydney era, I predicted conversion software would kill a lot of 2nd & 3rd tier vendors in these forums - I was roundly mocked for my prediction.

And here we are.  Any clothing I buy now has to be better than what is already in my runtimes - and very little is.

Really? Can you point me to a single tutorial that explains how to create a pair of pants in Poser itself? Or a shirt? A serious question.

MNE posted at 1:18 PM Tue, 14 March 2023 - #4458426

Rhia474 posted at 11:01 PM Mon, 13 March 2023 - #4458375

Really? Can you point me to a single tutorial that explains how to create a pair of pants in Poser itself? Or a shirt? A serious question.

This is my tutorial.

Sorry for the Japanese blog.

http://mneposer.blog.2nt.com/blog-entry-383.html

ssgbryan posted at 12:30 PM Tue, 14 March 2023 - #4458416

AmbientShade posted at 7:45 PM Mon, 13 March 2023 - #4458359

Whenever you launch the two figures you are working on - they will have a vast collection of clothing content (sans shoes) within a day in my runtimes.

I'm doing my best to provide as much starter clothing as I can, within reason. Can't expect a whole closet full from day one. Especially when it's just one person doing it all.

Fitting room comes in handy in a pinch but clothing always seems to work best when it's built for the figure it's being used on. The raw model can be refitted to another figure in a modeling app with sculpting tools like zbrush or blender. Trying to refit clothing the old way point by point would be a nightmare, its no wonder a lot of older lesser used figures never had much.

But I don't think the fitting room replaces quality content or the need for more. DS is capable of refitting clothing from* previous G figures to newer ones and people still buy the refits along with newer items.

Boy ohh boy that is hilarious " Sorry " sure that this way it will not gonna get any better for poser LOL 15$ an hour else I will not make a model huuh .... don't get me wrong but that is not the way art is working and for sure not a way to ever get any success. Are you aware on how an artist gets success ? sure not by thinking how much he wants to earn an hour before making he's artwork .

First of all he needs to give he's best, I mean best from he's own interests as this is he's strength. NOT what the crowd wants, the artist publishes something that causes the customer to think that he was not aware that he needed this piece of art. This is how the older Vendors worked, just by presenting something that blew you away.

Sample:

I made a model and guess, it took me 4h gave it to a broker and it threw out over 8k , did I know what to expect? Did I expect it ? NO ! It was just a thing that shows my interests not the one's of crowds and they liked it, so they got it . Art is expressing your self and if you know how to express your self you will get a little reward. " Just a sample of many " 

It is not the pair of Pants it is the whole package that needs to tell a story, then customers will buy that story that you expressed in your rendered artwork, to be a part of it, this is how you will have success with your models you created. Your outfit will just be the main attraction of that presentation. 

It does not really matter what doll is wearing it , as it will not be the doll that is making it , the main reason why you are stuck in thinking that a new doll will make it better, but that is just wrong . Be an Artist, think like an Artis and not like a business man then you might start having success with your Poser art again.

Not sure if you get my point, but it is how it was working for poser  and believe me these older artists will not be forgotten like  things that are published now just for business, that customers  do not even get aware of anymore, seeing it just as a product but not as ART.

I think I could create if I put my mind to it and I have tried a few tutorials in the past but my issue is with finding the time to do such.  Even though I am retired I find it difficult to get any spare time to play with Poser and I am still blown away with what Poser can do so I would rather spend my time getting deeper in Poser than creating content.  The closest I get is to kit bash in and attempt to take an every day piece of clothing and make it look sci-fi enough to use in my renders.

And god, yes, Aery Soul's shoes are too far hard to fit. They were ages ahead to everyone else. I'd drool over each of those too.

Honestly, personally I prefer going fantasy too, but LF was missing so much of the basics I ended up doing very little fantasy. Kinda went every one of my characters has a fantasy twist option in them.

Y-Phil posted at 5:46 AM Wed, 15 March 2023 - #4458484

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 10:49 AM Tue, 14 March 2023 - #4458404

And god, yes, Aery Soul's shoes are too far hard to fit. They were ages ahead to everyone else. I'd drool over each of those too.

Honestly, personally I prefer going fantasy too, but LF was missing so much of the basics I ended up doing very little fantasy. Kinda went every one of my characters has a fantasy twist option in them.

You have a point there, concerning him Aery Souls, and not for the shoes: their hair props/characters were reassource-hungry but so good, and they're still nive-looking.

@vopehop506: that's a lot of words for "I want other people to do what I want for almost free".

>>> @vopehop506: that's a lot of words for "I want other people to do what I want for almost free".

Not my intention placing my words on how a Artist should present he's work for almost free, this probably would not be the case. I believe that 5 years ago a Poser artist was having much better earnings then today, but they did not sell a Product, they were selling there Art and Ideas. I am telling this from my own experience as I do not end up having a NON profit sale with this methods. In contrary it is rather profitable. Each time I think " What shall I create that could hit a sale " nothing happens ! When I just do what I really want " my self "  and place it out then the chance is way greater. Not always right away but later in the process * All of a sudden " like it were bread that is coming fresh out of the oven.

Not trying to say " You do wrong " I rather intend giving you an idea how your work could get a little more appreciation, so that these do not end up as No sale items. Even I could make it profitable, as if I would remain as a rare Poser creator no matter how good things are I'd get less interested customers ( One alone cant fill the hunger of collectors ) . The more Creators that are around catching the customers attentions the better it also be for me. 

Do you think Aery Soul had just success because he was alone ? nop he had success because there were allot of other great creators, what pushes an artist do do better and try to do better then others, giving there best. If you are alone here is not that pressure to do better and your products and promo renders start to get cheap with a big loss of quality. 

You might agree, there are not that many " Eye Catchers " in the poser store anymore " The art is missing " got lost somewhere . Half a decade back the release presentations were looking way better then they do now. This rat tail causes a loss of interested customers for poser, It even hurts my own quotes, even if you place a great presentation in-between it might just get lost, customers will get tired trying to find this Needle in a haystack. They walk off trying to find art that suits them in a better way.

I love Aery Soul's stuff, and have bought it, but TBH I don't use it much. It's just too eye-catching and unique. I feel it's not my art, I only rendered it.

I guess I prefer more generic stuff. I rarely use products out of the box. I like to mix and match. Morphs from one character, textures from another. I often layer clothing (dynamic is good for this), so my characters don't look like they're running around in their underwear.

I like to mix and match. Morphs from one character, textures from another. 

I do this often with my characters

vopehov506 posted at 3:13 PM Wed, 15 March 2023 - #4458541

Not my intention placing my words on how a Artist should present he's work for almost free, this probably would not be the case. I believe that 5 years ago a Poser artist was having much better earnings then today, but they did not sell a Product, they were selling there Art and Ideas. I am telling this from my own experience as I do not end up having a NON profit sale with this methods. In contrary it is rather profitable. Each time I think " What shall I create that could hit a sale " nothing happens ! When I just do what I really want " my self "  and place it out then the chance is way greater. Not always right away but later in the process * All of a sudden " like it were bread that is coming fresh out of the oven.

Not trying to say " You do wrong " I rather intend giving you an idea how your work could get a little more appreciation, so that these do not end up as No sale items. Even I could make it profitable, as if I would remain as a rare Poser creator no matter how good things are I'd get less interested customers ( One alone cant fill the hunger of collectors ) . The more Creators that are around catching the customers attentions the better it also be for me. 

Do you think Aery Soul had just success because he was alone ? nop he had success because there were allot of other great creators, what pushes an artist do do better and try to do better then others, giving there best. If you are alone here is not that pressure to do better and your products and promo renders start to get cheap with a big loss of quality. 

I've been creating content for 25 years. Most of my older stuff is retired. The rest of the items in my store are about to be retired , because I am completely retiring from content creation for a while. 

Whether or not you consider some of this as "eye catching" is up to you. But here are some things I did for La Femme, because I enjoyed working on them.

I could also show you a whole pile of Genesis content that I wanted to convert to La Femme and L'Homme, but they had to be completely reshaped and rerigged. Here's one example.. Is this eye catching enough for you?

Perhaps it would be wise to not make assumptions about a person's experience and abilities. Every set I made, I made because I enjoyed making it. 

DCArt

It was not an attempt criticizing your work or your presentations in any way, you seem of gotten me wrong there. Your presentations are of great value. The ones who have there years of experiences for publications do it quiet well. I am not targeting any of you personally with my words, I try to express my self globally, not pointing a finger on any of you " Personally ". It is a Rhetorik way of communication.

Would I of done so then I would of mentioned the personal concerned in my text. I mean that good poser presentations are getting really rare, they are getting lost. It has nothing to do with your work or Oki's works or any others in here that are capable of good presentations. So there is no need of personal concern. I guess you see it your self when opening the Poser store what I mean.

Concurrence is right next door, If poser can't keep up with good Art promotions they will fade away. If Artists of DS offer better presentations of there art, where do you think the customers will be ending up, fallowed by the few left good poser creators ? Poser/DS presentations are right next to each other, so the one who makes the better presentation will win the attention. No matter witch application is the better one, no matter what doll is the better doll. 

So to make things clear, I was not quoting you! either your Art! I am not sure why you feel concerned about my words.

You are correct that content sells nowhere near what it did 5 years ago. And DEFINITELY not what it was ten or 15 years ago. I've been mulling around retiring for a couple of years now. It's time for me to make this a hobby again, as much as I enjoyed to make content. 

The only software I had any success with was Anim8or.

There's a name you don't see often, and when I'm working in 3D I use it on almost every single project.  Is it a top  notch program with  all the latest features? Nope,  not even close.  In fact it hasn't evolved much in 20+ years, but it's quick, simple, and efficient. 

With that said, making clothes in Blender is a breeze. Literally follow an actual clothing pattern(like you grandmas used to use),  tie everything together non filled edges(that will  become the thread),  and apply cloth with sewing and shrinking, adjust a few settings and run it.  It will  sew your clothing together and shrink it right down to fit your model. 

I can  make clothing items all day long and use them in the cloth room, I have the hardest time rigging them though.  

For some reason, Anim8or made sense to me, in a way none of the others did.

I have tried Blender, but I couldn't even figure out how to rotate an object. I basically use it to convert Sketchup stuff to OBJ for use in Poser. I do plan to try some actual tutorials soon. That rocket tutorial looks interesting.

And what do you mean, my grandmas? Get off my lawn! I know how to sew with patterns (and even had a class in making my own patterns, because my mom made me).

One thing I would like to figure out: how to make dynamic clothing with thickness. Some people do it, but most don't. Conforming clothes may not drape as well, but its edges have thickness, and so look better.

randym77 posted at 12:06 AM Thu, 16 March 2023 - #4458635

For some reason, Anim8or made sense to me, in a way none of the others did.

I have tried Blender, but I couldn't even figure out how to rotate an object. I basically use it to convert Sketchup stuff to OBJ for use in Poser. I do plan to try some actual tutorials soon. That rocket tutorial looks interesting.

And what do you mean, my grandmas? Get off my lawn! I know how to sew with patterns (and even had a class in making my own patterns, because my mom made me).

One thing I would like to figure out: how to make dynamic clothing with thickness. Some people do it, but most don't. Conforming clothes may not drape as well, but its edges have thickness, and so look better.

Art IS a profession, mind you. Making something with a mind for the market doesn't make it any less art. Even Michelangelo had sponsors with requests.

Feel free to go "I miss the fantasy and sci fi we had so much of for Poser in the past", but trying to define that something is art and something isn't will only make someone feel like it was a jab at their work.

In any case, I think we might wanna get back to the topic at hand 🤣

....but if you're familiar with  following a pattern and sewing up  some clothes(I'm an old fart too),  then that's very much analogous,  to making clothes in Blender.  Once you get used to  the using keyboard shortcuts to  accomplish everything it really is pretty simple to  get around,  and if you haven't used it since 2.8, you might be very surprised to  find out they've totally changed the interface. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdbXSPN_VUc

 

Oh, wow. The Blender I have installed is 2.83. Good thing I know nothing, I'd probably be annoyed if I had to learn a whole new interface. :-D

The latest version is 3.4.1.

From what I've seen, keeping some older Blender version could prove useful because of FBX version, I rarely use blender but once I remember I was happy to have one old version.
Totally unexperienced Blender user, so I may be wrong, but that was my feeling.

Bforartists (Blender for artists) is a free Blender fork that has a more "normal" interface.  Buttons instead of just keyboard shortcuts.  I haven't messed with it much as I'm not doing much modeling right now, and when I do I use Lightwave 2018 or Rhino2.

i want this to be the standard of poser13 new figure to be.

bikini nudity

these are all HD morphs

this must be the standard of renderosity new figure ,the quality of appearance structure ,and textural features i want in poser13

i want this to be the standard of poser13 new figure to be.

bikini nudity

these are all HD morphs

this must be the standard of renderosity new figure ,the quality of appearance structure ,and textural features i want in poser13

i have seen some of sculpte character exercises wips of Dawn 2.0 by MEC4D that looking  amazing it will be around the corner in the future i hope.

What you've shown depends entirely on having a lot more content creators and some time for  them to deliver so much stuff.

i have seen some of sculpte character exercises wips of Dawn 2.0 by MEC4D that looking  amazing it will be around the corner in the future i hope.

Nevertrumper posted at 8:17 AM Fri, 24 March 2023 - #4459444

722 posted at 2:25 PM Thu, 23 March 2023 - #4459347

i have seen some of sculpte character exercises wips of Dawn 2.0 by MEC4D that looking  amazing it will be around the corner in the future i hope.

I couldn't stand Dawn (1)
Absolutely terrible, but what I've seen from Dawn 2 looks actually really promising.