DCArt posted at 9:53 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462023

Nevertrumper posted at 9:02 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462015

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 6:34 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462006

Nevertrumper posted at 8:09 PM Tue, 11 April 2023 - #4461842

So this Poser 13 splash screen is a straight render?

Which one of them?

Oh come on. Please do not pretend to be clueless.

Just put it like this:

Show me links or pictures of realist style Promotion renders, that can convince people to purchase or upgrade Poser - please.

Show me those awesome renders, like any other 3d app would use in order to bait customers.

Show me those „Must Have“ renders.

Afrodite asked a legitimate question. You made an accusation that one of the Poser 13 splash screens was "heavily photoshopped." She asked which one. You are deflecting the question by now asking to "show me these awesome renders."

What if that render that you claim is "heavily photoshopped" is one of those awesome renders you seek?  How are we to know which render you claim is heavily photoshopped unless we know which one you are talking about?

I am talking about this red and black couple promo for Poser 13 all over the place, here.

https://posercontent.com/3d-models-for-poser/poser-13-upgrade-from-poser-12

AcePyx posted at 10:04 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462024

Nevertrumper posted at 9:53 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462022

There has been a short period of time, where I actually thought, that SM is finally doing the right thing.

Introducing weight mapping, making the morph brush useful, reverse deformations on morph target creation and giving us more control over morphs with the dependencies editor.

It just feels like, they‘ve lost interest in Poser after the PP2014 release.

Absolutely correct. SM abandoned the program. When they bought it, it was the second most pirated software in the world after Photoshop according to their marketing guy. By the end, even the pirates didn't consider it worth copying.

But let's try to be positive and look to the future. Smith Micro's appalling treatment of the program bears no relationship to Bondware. I think that they genuinely have good intentions for the program, but it lost so much ground to Daz Studio and iClone, that they cannot invest the money it really needs until it starts to sell a lot more copies, but it won't sell more copies until it becomes a lot better...
In that context, I can appreciate the moves that they are making, and the speed that they are working, even though I desperately wish they would move faster.

They didn‘t even solve their low on money problem the smart way.

Instead of wasting money with half ready shaders and a ripped off render engine, they‘ could have come up with a solid Blender link and work on those things, that are directly important for an app, that deals with 3d figures. 

That is the reason for Reallusion‘s success. They have worked on their core segment.

(BTW: DAZ Studio is free and it includes a render engine, that costs about 300$, if you‘d buy it separately.

Poser costs 250$ and it includes a ripp off of a render engine that comes free with Blender.)

Am I really the only one here, who thinks, that Poser is milking his loyalists in an dishonest way?

Nevertrumper posted at 9:02 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462015

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 6:34 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462006

Nevertrumper posted at 8:09 PM Tue, 11 April 2023 - #4461842

So this Poser 13 splash screen is a straight render?

Which one of them?

Oh come on. Please do not pretend to be clueless.

Just put it like this:

Show me links or pictures of realist style Promotion renders, that can convince people to purchase or upgrade Poser - please.

Show me those awesome renders, like any other 3d app would use in order to bait customers.

Show me those „Must Have“ renders.

I'm not pretending shit. You're the one making accusations without knowing.

Go to the "show your poser 13 renders" thread. Check the FIRST post there, by myself. That's the RAW render of one of the p13 splash screens, that I made and rendered in p13. 

Or perhaps by "heavily photoshopped" you mean "added the poser 13 logo to the render in Photoshop", then sure.

Nevertrumper posted at 10:35 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462027

DCArt posted at 9:53 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462023

Nevertrumper posted at 9:02 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462015

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 6:34 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462006

Nevertrumper posted at 8:09 PM Tue, 11 April 2023 - #4461842

So this Poser 13 splash screen is a straight render?

Which one of them?

Oh come on. Please do not pretend to be clueless.

Just put it like this:

Show me links or pictures of realist style Promotion renders, that can convince people to purchase or upgrade Poser - please.

Show me those awesome renders, like any other 3d app would use in order to bait customers.

Show me those „Must Have“ renders.

Afrodite asked a legitimate question. You made an accusation that one of the Poser 13 splash screens was "heavily photoshopped." She asked which one. You are deflecting the question by now asking to "show me these awesome renders."

What if that render that you claim is "heavily photoshopped" is one of those awesome renders you seek?  How are we to know which render you claim is heavily photoshopped unless we know which one you are talking about?

I am talking about this red and black couple promo for Poser 13 all over the place, here.

https://posercontent.com/3d-models-for-poser/poser-13-upgrade-from-poser-12

How exactly do you think that's photoshopped? Poser could render like that since a bunch of versions ago. You only need to know how to set up materials to do that.

By now it feels to me like you want the program to have automatic buttons "make me a render like this" without learning how to use the thing.

Nevertrumper posted at 10:51 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462029

Instead of wasting money with half ready shaders and a ripped off render engine,
Poser costs 250$ and it includes a ripp off of a render engine that comes free with Blender.)

Am I really the only one here, who thinks, that Poser is milking his loyalists in an dishonest way?

You've repeatedly called Cycles engine "ripped off." It is not - it is open source, which means it's free to anyone to utilise. It was VERY intelligent way for Smith Micro to add physically based rendering to Poser, using a popular, well respected engine, to Poser. It provided Poser users with a vast resouce of tutorials, broad compatibility, and good PBR results. I really don't understand your hostility towards it.

"they‘ could have come up with a solid Blender link and work on those things, that are directly important for an app, that deals with 3d figures. "

A massive number of Poser users have no interest in learning how to use Blender. That said, I thought that Bondware/SM were unwise to cancel the Fusion plug in that enabled you to use Poser in pro 3D software.

No, I do not think Poser/Bondware is milking loyalists. Even if speed was the only improvement in Poser 12, it was worth $99. In Poser 13, the content is easily worth the asking price (although I would have liked more substantive upgrades).

We all want to see Poser thrive, and I have PLENTY of issues with Bondware, but off the top of my head, I'd say ripping off the Poser loyalists is not one of them.

I appreciate the balanced and calm approach  you have,  @AcePyx in your review and throughout this discussion.

Count me in as one who is not interested in using Blender. I have other 3D apps that I prefer instead.

nevertrumper forgets that Blender development is funded by some major corporations and donors so that Blender users can get it "free."

Cycles is open source. But it is not a "plug and play drop it in and it just works" deal. It took development time to get it integrated into Poser. 

DCArt posted at 11:15 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462035

Count me in as one who is not interested in using Blender. I have other 3D apps that I prefer instead.

nevertrumper forgets that Blender development is funded by some major corporations and donors so that Blender users can get it "free."

Cycles is open source. But it is not a "plug and play drop it in and it just works" deal. It took development time to get it integrated into Poser. 

Great Cycles is open source, but Poser users have to pay for it?

Please read the sentence just before your reply again. 

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 10:59 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462031

Nevertrumper posted at 10:35 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462027

DCArt posted at 9:53 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462023

Nevertrumper posted at 9:02 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462015

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 6:34 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462006

Nevertrumper posted at 8:09 PM Tue, 11 April 2023 - #4461842

So this Poser 13 splash screen is a straight render?

Which one of them?

Oh come on. Please do not pretend to be clueless.

Just put it like this:

Show me links or pictures of realist style Promotion renders, that can convince people to purchase or upgrade Poser - please.

Show me those awesome renders, like any other 3d app would use in order to bait customers.

Show me those „Must Have“ renders.

Afrodite asked a legitimate question. You made an accusation that one of the Poser 13 splash screens was "heavily photoshopped." She asked which one. You are deflecting the question by now asking to "show me these awesome renders."

What if that render that you claim is "heavily photoshopped" is one of those awesome renders you seek?  How are we to know which render you claim is heavily photoshopped unless we know which one you are talking about?

I am talking about this red and black couple promo for Poser 13 all over the place, here.

https://posercontent.com/3d-models-for-poser/poser-13-upgrade-from-poser-12

How exactly do you think that's photoshopped? Poser could render like that since a bunch of versions ago. You only need to know how to set up materials to do that.

By now it feels to me like you want the program to have automatic buttons "make me a render like this" without learning how to use the thing.

Alright, let‘ s talk about YOUR render.

First: Well done, without a doubt.

Second: Which is a good and a bad thing at the same time, I doubt, it could have done any better.

If I had seen this render in any other 3d art gallery, without knowing Poser, I would ask what post filter you have used.

Hard to describe.

Open an empty scene in Poser with default settings and look at the empty editor.

It looks like this collar pattern you can see there is still present with every render. Some more, some less.

It gives every Poser render this „brownish“ flatness. 

Back in the days of PP2014, I purchased the Octane render plug in to avoid that tint.

So obviously, it is not just a firefly problem, but a superfly problem as well.

Check it out yourself, if possible.

I don’t know, what other softwares you are using, but export your scene to any other app of your choice. Recreate light and camera and render again.

I bet it will be mindblowing.

Collar pattern????

And why would you use default settings in a production render???

Rhia474 posted at 11:50 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462041

Collar pattern????

And why would you use default settings in a production render???

That is not, what I said. Don’t do the Strawman here.

This is the collar pattern, that seems to overlay every Poser render as if it was a post render filter.

It even makes Poser render in the Renderosity gallery detectable.

Ah, I see. Carry on then. 

When you create an empty scene, that color you initially see in the window is the background color.

You can change that color to anything you want. For example, here it is changed to black.

The second color chip in the lower right corner sets the background color.

Rhia474 posted at 11:13 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462034

I appreciate the balanced and calm approach  you have,  @AcePyx in your review and throughout this discussion.

Thank you so much so much Rhia.

Inertia.

I'm using Poser for 23 years now, and I spent most of that time creating highly customized content which would be very time consuming to transfer to other apps.

I also thankfully don't need to worry about Superfly, as I'm perfectly happy with the results I can get with Firefly.

*

But to be frank, I think Poser is completely obsolete now, at least for new users.

Have a look at Blenders "Human Generator" plugin. It's basically a "How Poser could have been in a perfect world", but right inside Blender with full use of it's modelling capeabilities.

(And yeah, this plugin also makes Studio completely obsolete IMO. They will be able to hold on a little longer due to the sheer mass of their content, though)

So, if a newbie / hobbyist 3D artist would ask me what program to choose, I'd say BLENDER, BLENDER, BLENDER!  :-p

*

But for me, I don't really need photorealism and I'm too old and tired to loose 23 years of "muscle memory" I've built up with Poser and Wings 3D.

I was actually content with using Poser 11, but it would feel wrong bitchin' about Poser and not actually owning the latest version.  ;-)

So I shelled out the $200 (Poser 12 upgrade + Poser 13 upgrade) to "see".

Firefly is faster now and Superfly can even recognize my GFX card. (Though it's still not as fast as CPU Firefly is!)

Some new Python 3.0 scripts are available that can finally replace a few of my most beloved Python 2.0 scripts, so that's not that much of a problem, either.

As for the kill switch, well. it would be a real trust building move to ditch that, but when push comes to shove, I still have a copy of PP-2014 installed.

And as for the newer versions, well, "Ve haf vays to make you...continue renderink!"   ;-)

*

So, while I'm not exactly hopeful for its future, I still find a few things I can enjoy in Poser 13.

And while I couldn't recommend it to a novice 3D artist (GO Blender!), I'd still say that if you already own another version of Poser and don't really feel like changing programs, you should download the Poser 13 trial and see for yourself if it's worth the upgrade price for you.

JoePublic posted at 1:51 PM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462057

Some new Python 3.0 scripts are available that can finally replace a few of my most beloved Python 2.0 scripts, so that's not that much of a problem, either.

May I ask which scripts you are referring to? EZ Skin and EZ Dome have sadly both stopped working on both P12 and 13 for me.

EzSkin has a version that works perfectly in P12 and well in P13 (runs in P13 just fine, may need manual adjusting ). If you look at the thread here with Snarlygribbly announcing their return,  the link is in their sigline to the site with all the free scripts.

Oh. Here.

https://cobrablade.net/snarlygribbly/poser.html

I don't use EZ Skin or EZ Dome that much, as I usually make my own skin shaders.

(I like to optimize my shaders for both speed as well as a nice looking preview. I also use a 3.50 Gamma, as I like the darker shadows it provides)

But I use Magnet Mirror, an old Ockham's Bungalow script quite a bit.

(I know how to use the MorphBrush quite well, but sometimes using a magnet simply is the more straightforwad option)

And Ken1171_Designs "Mags Master" seems to be able to recreate that ability (Plus a ton of others)

Also his DUF scripts will probably simplify importing Studio assets for me.

Nevertrumper posted at 11:48 AM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462040

Alright, let‘ s talk about YOUR render.

First: Well done, without a doubt.

Second: Which is a good and a bad thing at the same time, I doubt, it could have done any better.

If I had seen this render in any other 3d art gallery, without knowing Poser, I would ask what post filter you have used.

Hard to describe.

Open an empty scene in Poser with default settings and look at the empty editor.

It looks like this collar pattern you can see there is still present with every render. Some more, some less.

It gives every Poser render this „brownish“ flatness. 

Back in the days of PP2014, I purchased the Octane render plug in to avoid that tint.

So obviously, it is not just a firefly problem, but a superfly problem as well.

Check it out yourself, if possible.

I don’t know, what other softwares you are using, but export your scene to any other app of your choice. Recreate light and camera and render again.

I bet it will be mindblowing.

Color space.

A while ago, Blender Guru made a video about it, how Cycles back then had such a limited color space it was worse than that of a real-life disposable camera. With that video, he also advertised a free blender plugin that allowed cycles to render in filmic color space - in other words, the range of light captured by professional cinema cameras. Soon after, they added that to base Blender.

I've been begging Poser devs to bring that to Superfly ever since, but thing is: Poser renders in high-dynamic range, and that range is limited by the format you save out your render to. I've published a tutorial on how to grab the HDR raw render, load it in Photoshop and adjust it to similar to filmic.

Poser 13 doesn't require that anymore. The new post-render options have gamma, contrast etc sliders so you can do that color space and color correction inside Poser.

I just didn't want to apply post effects to the render. I wanted it raw for the splash image.

Anything else you want to nitpick in the attempt to save face or are you gonna accept that you were wrong to accuse everything P13 if being "heavily photoshopped" already?

JoePublic posted at 2:10 PM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462061

But I use Magnet Mirror, an old Ockham's Bungalow script quite a bit.

Oh wow - LOADS of useful scripts on that site!

Rhia474 posted at 2:06 PM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462059

EzSkin has a version that works perfectly in P12 and well in P13 (runs in P13 just fine, may need manual adjusting ). If you look at the thread here with Snarlygribbly announcing their return,  the link is in their sigline to the site with all the free scripts.

Glorious! Thank you.

JoePublic posted at 1:51 PM Thu, 13 April 2023 - #4462057

Have a look at Blenders "Human Generator" plugin. It's basically a "How Poser could have been in a perfect world", but right inside Blender with full use of it's modelling capeabilities.

(And yeah, this plugin also makes Studio completely obsolete IMO. They will be able to hold on a little longer due to the sheer mass of their content, though)

So, if a newbie / hobbyist 3D artist would ask me what program to choose, I'd say BLENDER, BLENDER, BLENDER!  :-p

I'm less persuaded by their website than you are. I see a bunch of tools for using some preexisting content. But, hey, suppose what you said was true? I don't mind, because Poser has taught me how to make Cycles shaders so I am halfway to already knowing Blender.

"I see a bunch of tools for using some preexisting content."

But isn't that exactly what Poser and Studio are about? Use pre-existing content so casual users don't have to create everything from scratch by themselves?

*

This is the closest native Blender plugin I've seen so far that is directed at hobbyist / casual users.

Yet, you still can harnish all of Blenders modelling and rendering power if you want without having to switch apps. Once they establish a decent content catalog, there is no need anymore for Poser (or Studio).

Already the models look way better than any current native Poser figure and are easily on par with Genesis 9.

The main difference is the "easy to use interface", using sliders just like Poser and Studio.

This is in stark contrast to all the other Blender items that are usually aimed at professionals / very advanced hobbyists.

*

OTOH, AI is already capeable of creating realistic human 3D meshes from a single photograph!

They are untextured, unrigged OBJ files only ATM.

But how long will it take before a fully textured, fully rigged photorealistic human can be generated with just a few mouse-clicks?

*

I love Poser, I really do. But the only market niche left I see for it are longtime Poser users who for various reasons are unwilling to switch apps.

*

Poser is the past. But that's OK with me, as I'm the past, too.

I had lots of fun with it, and I plan on continuing having fun with it as long as I can.

But the real future are Blender and AI.

IMHO.

;-)

Poser and studio come with a crap-ton of ready-made content, Poser even moreso than studio at over 20 gigs. They've added a bunch more with 13 so it may be closer to 30 by now. All of varying quality and age but most of that can be improved with updated materials.

Human generator is rather pricey and from what I've seen most of the options all look pretty much the same. And if you want to use it in anything commercial, like creating comics (a big thing in poser-verse) it will cost you $128. That's a lot more than the cost of most Poser and studio figures, and you still have to find content or build your own to populate your scenes (and none of them are anatomically accurate - the girlies don't even appear to have nipples).

And all of that is aside from the steep learning curve Blender requires. It's UI is nowhere near as newbie friendly as Posers or even studios. I use blender pretty extensively, I even went to school for 3D animation and even I have issues and frustrations with blender's UI. It is far from artist friendly and requires a lot of getting used to. So I don't put it in a class for total newbies.

Human generator is an alright product for someone who needs to create generic humans to populate power point presentations and similar projects but it's definitely not a replacement for the plethora of uses Poser has.

For that matter you might as well suggest folks to use UE's meta human. It's free, it's been around for a while, produces near life-like humans with an unlimited set of combinations and ethnic variety, yet Poser, iclone and DS are all still selling because, like Blender, UE isn't for the casual hobbyist that just wants to load, pose and render.

And the forums really are not a good way to gauge Poser's appeal. If it wasn't still selling well then they wouldn't be putting out new versions and updates. In the time Bondware has owned it there is now 2 new versions, not including all the refinement they did to 11. That's more than SM did in the same period of time.

As for AI art: there are several lawsuits working their way through the court systems right now, with more to follow, regarding copyright infringements as none of the AI generators could produce the "art" they're producing without the use of existing work, most of which is unauthorized. So depending how any of those cases turn out the ai art craze may disappear or change pretty significantly in the near future.

As I said, unlike other Blender plugins, Human Generator has a simplified UI, very similar to Poser and Studio, so it is targeted right to Poser / Studios former core audience.

*

Myself, I have no interrest in it, as I still have enough fun using Poser.

But I stopped "believing" into Poser's continuing success the moment DAZ issued a figure with Studio only features (V4), but my fears were summarily dismissed.

And while the community was busy playing with V4, actually nurturing their own downfall, none of the past and current owners Of Poser were willing to put any significant resources into developing their own high quality figures.

*

There was "some" continuing improvement, yes, but hadn't I started to develop my own figures, basically doing what the owners of Posers had been paid to do for me, I would have stopped using Poser by the time Poser 7 or 8 was issued.

Sorry, but I find the native Poser figures since Poser 6 COMPLETELY unuseable. Some of them I made "beareable" with a lot of work (I've even managed to "un-ugly" Alyson), but for the most part they aren't worth my time.

Yet this all could have been avoided, as Poser is perfectly capeable to support high quality meshes with it's rigging system.

*

So, unless I see a really professionally made native Poser figure, I continue to just "use" Poser because of, well, yes "inertia".

But I don't "believe", or better said, "trust" in it anymore. Sorry.

Really, I don't regret upgrading to Poser 13.

If you are Poser users and have the $$$ lying around, download the trial and give it a try.

*

But neither the program itself nor the included content make me "exited" in any way, shape or form.

It's a "point upgrade", as others said.

Hopefully a few more bugs will be squashed.

(I had it crash to desktop while playing in the Material Room. Something I remember Poser 11 would do, too, in the beginning)

But that's really all I'm expecting.

AmbientShade posted at 12:42 AM Fri, 14 April 2023 - #4462123

Poser and studio come with a crap-ton of ready-made content

And all of that is aside from the steep learning curve Blender requires. It's UI is nowhere near as newbie friendly as Posers or even studios. I use blender pretty extensively, I even went to school for 3D animation and even I have issues and frustrations with blender's UI. I

This is the story in its totality.  I pay for 3D studio Max each year, and I STILL use Poser. There are tens of thousands of users, just like me, who want to get from idea to scene as quickly as possible, without having to go through weeks or months of additional, unrewarding effort. I consider modelling (and worse so, UV mapping, rigging, lighting and developing clothes), to be the equivalent of a pianist spending long boring hours practicing scales - a tedious means to an end, with the real goal being to make music/art.
I get so bored with people constantly raising their nose at Poser/DS and saying ""Just" learn Blender!" I can make a great outdoors scene in Poser right now. To do the same in Blender would entail at least a year; maybe even several, to attain the competence to do so. My art is mediocre at absolute best, but I consider Poser scenes to be a sketchbook of my ideas, not a perfect reproduction of life. Yes, that would be great, and Bondware can DEFINITELY do better, but I want to go from idea to reality quickly, and in the background, I can plug away at learning other software.
And while we're at it, why are all the Blender people wasting time with that program? "Just" learn 3D Studio, and those 3D Studio people - wasters - learn Maya, and why aren't the Maya people writing bespoke 3D programs! I'm being facetious - Blender is a wonderful program that has democratised 3D but you can always use that elitist argument upwards can't you?

JoePublic posted at 1:43 AM Fri, 14 April 2023 - #4462129

But I stopped "believing" into Poser's continuing success the moment DAZ issued a figure with Studio only features (V4), but my fears were summarily dismissed.

Sorry, but I find the native Poser figures since Poser 6 COMPLETELY unuseable. Some of them I made "beareable" with a lot of work (I've even managed to "un-ugly" Alyson), but for the most part they aren't worth my time.

So, unless I see a really professionally made native Poser figure, I continue to just "use" Poser because of, well, yes "inertia".

But I don't "believe", or better said, "trust" in it anymore. Sorry.

Good post. The downfall of Poser actually happened sooner. It all came down to arrogance. Poser was on the second iteration of Face Room. At the time, it only supported native figures but they wanted to support DAZ figures. They offered DAZ the opportunity, but they wanted a ridiculous fee to do so. DAZ declined, and that was the cause of a terminal rift between the two companies. DAZ was already uncertain about Poser's future because they saw that the company was being run by morons (Smith Micro), so they had already started working on DAZ Studio as a vehicle for their multi, multi-million dollar yearly figure sales. Unlike Bondware, they had the wisdom to recognise the program for what it was - an engine to drive sales.
Smith Micro overvalued inclusion in Faceroom, and while it was perhaps fair to request a reasonable contribution towards their costs with the now defunct Faceroom, the amount they wanted was enough to fund development on the whole program for a year. Even then, as now with Bondware, they also overvalued the quality of their own figures. As you say, "Unusable," and now they're also playing technology catchup with Genesis' clothing and hair fitting multi-compatibility system. Even back then, when it was Michael and Victoria 2, maybe 3, without DAZ, Poser would quickly have faded into obscurity.

I certainly don't trust that Bondware has the business nous and especially not the marketing savvy, to guide Poser, although the tech guys seem to be in a pretty good head space. Sadly the devs are financially constrained in what they can do.

I am so with you on the marketing, especially since it's so visible on this site that they would have to market against their own biggest asset sakes and it is super obvious they aren't doing that.

Buying Poser was a double edged sword. I am happy with what they ate doing on the technical side but frustrated by the constant bugs, cheering for the dev team but appalled by the utter lack of basic promotion anywhere but on their own site. And even there, why can't someone use a basic algorithm so I don't get 90 percent promo offers for studio assets I never bought? Why is Poser segregated to the very last tab of their top page ribbon like a literal redheaded stepchild? Why isn't QA enforced for asset promo pictures compared to Studio? The list goes on.

AcePyx posted at 6:04 AM Fri, 14 April 2023 - #4462139

The downfall of Poser actually happened sooner. It all came down to arrogance. Poser was on the second iteration of Face Room. At the time, it only supported native figures but they wanted to support DAZ figures... but they wanted a ridiculous fee to do so.

Smith Micro overvalued inclusion in Faceroom, and while it was perhaps fair to request a reasonable contribution towards their costs with the now defunct Faceroom, the amount they wanted was enough to fund development on the whole program for a year.

Face room existed long before SM acquired curious labs/e-frontier. Iirc it was licensed from a 3rd party (like most everything else in Poser), and that's where most of the fees to add additional figure support came from. Also don't forget that Apollo Maximus had faceroom support, one of the only 3rd party figures to do so, and I highly doubt his creator paid such an exorbitant fee for it, just to later turn around and give the figure away. I'm more inclined to believe Daz declined the faceroom support because it would have (potentially) impacted sales of their morph sets.

I certainly don't trust that Bondware has the business nous and especially not the marketing savvy, to guide Poser, although the tech guys seem to be in a pretty good head space. Sadly the devs are financially constrained in what they can do.

Bondware is in the best position to know what Poser needs to move forward, probably more than any of its previous owners. They've been selling content for it for over 20 years so they know what the customers want. I think the biggest issue at this point is budget to make it happen.

Guess there is not a very high risk with that Investments Bondware made. Calculating a low support of 1000 + buyers would already be a 2'000'000 $ gain if the average sale is 200$ that already would be a good budget for updates. 

Most if not all content provided is either old or sponoring by artists, so at no cost, support like they tell on Posersoftware 7/7 24h is directed to these forums also no cost. As far as I seen there were no additional assets from Poser 12 to 13 they remained the same, materials probably updated by the original owner that sponsored the assets. again very low cost.

Poser is mainly supported at no cost for the owner with the exception of the updates, allot is offered free by community members and users. This lowers the risk highly that Bondware ever could make a loss with Poser. Allot of users in here offer full free support, test the poser for free, make suggestions for free, some in here even spend more time then they would on a 8h job for free. Even publicity is made for free. Allot of sites place a link to renderosity for free to point at the program that is needed, a thing that renderosity never would allow to be dome for free.  So Poser probably throws more cash then we ever could imagine as small artists ... all at a amazing low cost. A artist has a good heart and is no businessman so he will never be the one who will drive the Ferrari.

AmbientShade posted at 10:48 AM Fri, 14 April 2023 - #4462155

AcePyx posted at 6:04 AM Fri, 14 April 2023 - #4462139

Face room existed long before SM acquired curious labs/e-frontier. Iirc it was licensed from a 3rd party (like most everything else in Poser), and that's where most of the fees to add additional figure support came from. Also don't forget that Apollo Maximus had faceroom support, one of the only 3rd party figures to do so, and I highly doubt his creator paid such an exorbitant fee for it, just to later turn around and give the figure away. I'm more inclined to believe Daz declined the faceroom support because it would have (potentially) impacted sales of their morph sets.

I certainly don't trust that Bondware has the business nous and especially not the marketing savvy, to guide Poser, although the tech guys seem to be in a pretty good head space. Sadly the devs are financially constrained in what they can do.

Bondware is in the best position to know what Poser needs to move forward, probably more than any of its previous owners. They've been selling content for it for over 20 years so they know what the customers want. I think the biggest issue at this point is budget to make it happen.

Smith Micro bought Poser in 2008 and released Poser Pro and Poser 8. Faceroom was introduced in 2010 - Poser Pro 2010.

I don't recall Apollo Maximum support, but if that is correct, it only confirms what I am saying - that SM was trying to price gouge DAZ. At the time, I was on professional friendly first name talking terms with both companies, so I am familiar with the way that each of them presented their side to me.

Respectfully, I think your faith in Bondware is not justified, nor supported by the facts. The fact that they have made constant major marketing missteps since owning Poser, convinces me that that part of the company has room for improvement. As for their tactical decisions, it took them what, 10, 15 years to design a web site that wasn't awful, and they STILL got hacked. To my mind, it is still far from pleasant to shop in, and total crap to sell through. I have no idea how much Bondware makes each year, but if it does not run into the millions, I'd be quite surprised, but they have shown a consistent pattern of poor decision making, not least charging $250 for Poser. There is certainly an equation between how much they invest in Poser, and how much value it returns, but assessing that value, as they appear to, in terms of how many copies of the software they sell, rather than the less tangible increase in software sales and loyalty, IMO, is short term thinking in the extreme.

Rhia474 posted at 8:08 AM Fri, 14 April 2023 - #4462143

Buying Poser was a double edged sword.

I completely share your ambivalence. I am actually very fond of DAZ 3D, and not so much on Bondware, but I LOVE Poser far more than Studio, which I find almost wilfully inscrutable.
I'm glad/sad that I am not the only one experiencing a multitude of bugs. Plenty of hard crashes, loads of weird program states, etc. I feel that Bondware pushed this software out of the door with indequate testing. If just I alone, can catalogue perhaps a dozen or more program breaking bugs in a week, I can't help but wonder how thoroughly it was beta tested.

vopehov506 posted at 12:05 PM Fri, 14 April 2023 - #4462159

Guess there is not a very high risk with that Investments Bondware made.

I didn't think of it like that, but lots of good points.

@Acepyx:

>>> Smith Micro bought Poser in 2008 and released Poser Pro and Poser 8. Faceroom was introduced in 2010 - Poser Pro 2010.

Correction here.

Ambient Shade is correct. Face room, Hair room, and Cloth Room were introduced to Poser in Poser 5.

vopehov506 posted at 12:05 PM Fri, 14 April 2023 - #4462159

Most if not all content provided is either old or sponoring by artists, so at no cost, support like they tell on Posersoftware 7/7 24h is directed to these forums also no cost.

There are many reminders on this forum asking people to submit questions to Poser's technical support and not just discuss them in the forums.

Poser is mainly supported at no cost for the owner with the exception of the updates, allot is offered free by community members and users. This lowers the risk highly that Bondware ever could make a loss with Poser. Allot of users in here offer full free support, test the poser for free, make suggestions for free, some in here even spend more time then they would on a 8h job for free.

That's a funny way of saying "Poser has a helpful and supportive community of users." But I guess you can spin anything to make it sound bad.

I remember using Face Room and Hair Room in Poser 7 ( and being utterly frustrated by both, hehe), so it definitely wasn't P10, indeed.

"California Dreaming" (or: The Halcyon Days of Poser)

https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/769814/california-dreaming?page=1

*

I miss that exitement...  

(And many of the people, too)  :-(

vopehov506 posted at 12:05 PM Fri, 14 April 2023 - #4462159

As far as I seen there were no additional assets from Poser 12 to 13 they remained the same, materials probably updated by the original owner that sponsored the assets. again very low cost.

There are several prop/scenery assets that come with P13 that didn't come with P12, at least as far as I'm aware. Pretty sure I've downloaded all of P12's content and I don't recall seeing any of these sets. They're mostly from the RPublishing catalog from what I can tell. I haven't downloaded it all but I did a brief survey of what I have downloaded and found the sets in the store. Just 4 or 5 of them if bought from the store would cost more than an upgrade. That doesn't count the additional content for LF/LH that didn't come with 12.

There is also a bunch of new cycles materials that weren't included in 12.

JoePublic posted at 1:10 PM Fri, 14 April 2023 - #4462169

"California Dreaming" (or: The Halcyon Days of Poser)

https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/769814/california-dreaming?page=1

*

I miss that exitement...  

(And many of the people, too)  :-(

Fun find!

And yeah, I miss it too 8-(

ChromeStar posted at 1:03 PM Fri, 14 April 2023 - #4462166

vopehov506 posted at 12:05 PM Fri, 14 April 2023 - #4462159

Most if not all content provided is either old or sponoring by artists, so at no cost, support like they tell on Posersoftware 7/7 24h is directed to these forums also no cost.

There are many reminders on this forum asking people to submit questions to Poser's technical support and not just discuss them in the forums.

Poser is mainly supported at no cost for the owner with the exception of the updates, allot is offered free by community members and users. This lowers the risk highly that Bondware ever could make a loss with Poser. Allot of users in here offer full free support, test the poser for free, make suggestions for free, some in here even spend more time then they would on a 8h job for free.

That's a funny way of saying "Poser has a helpful and supportive community of users." But I guess you can spin anything to make it sound bad.

Actually not meant to be something to sound bad, rather positive, as without all this free support, poser could not stand and we would not have these discussions. So sure a positive aspect all this sponsoring.

 

" Our largest Platform for selling electronics had a fantastic idea after catching over a million negative comments about the products they were selling, at trust pilot they fell right to the ground, They were beating all the records of negative comments and unhappy customers ! So what did they do to use all this support from clients that sure were not positive ? They simply published the really bad comments on tv making clips out of the situations the customers had with the experiences of the purchased products. This system sure did not cause customers running away and stop buying there stuff NOOO exactly the opposite, People even more started to buy there stuff and so they grew to be the largest in the country . All this with the unhappy comments of there customers about crappy stuff they were selling making short movie clips for tv on how unhappy Customers reactions were. "

So see there is always an advantage on any situation, no matter if positive or negative, but what sells most is for sure real Drama ! The how cute how nice or beautiful is skipped as there is nothing that needs to be changed. You just say How Boring, so action sure sells better then a fat ass on a chair.

DCArt posted at 12:29 PM Fri, 14 April 2023 - #4462164

@Acepyx:

Correction here.

Ambient Shade is correct. Face room, Hair room, and Cloth Room were introduced to Poser in Poser 5.

I stand corrected. I was going by the wikipedia entry.

No problem, AcePyx, I wondered where you got that from. Yeah Wikipedia appears to be incorrect there.

For the record, 200 times 1000 is 200,000, not 2 million.

blackbonner posted at 2:43 AM Tue, 11 April 2023 - #4461667

Just as a reminder, AcePyx is the only one on YouTube who's promotion Poser. He does something Bondware should do in the first place. At least to my knowledge he does it in his spare time and for free. He's putting out content on a regular basis. That's more anyone else here does and I think he deserves a bit more respect for what he does for the Poser community.

Sure, he has his own view on things and I don't agree with everything he says but in general he's trying to make his points by having good and reasonable arguments. He's definitely not a cheerleader but that's why I think his content is valuable. I would love to see more people like him creating tutorials and software reviews especially for Poser on YouTube and similar platforms. 

Re: the above quoted, BOLDED text

Hmm. There a Renderosity YouTube channel.

As of me typing this the last content dropped was 3 hours ago.

Whatchu talkin' 'bout Willis?

Bondware could actually publish " a sort of counter " on how many copies are sold of Poser, usually it is a pretty profitable system and propaganda for a product. This could also attract new creators, naturally depending on the amount of sold copies. For creators it sure is more motivating to see 1000, 10'000, 100'000, 1'000'000 sold letting them estimate if it is worth supporting the app. Ok if it is just 100 then they might not even bother to make new assets.

From my side I noticed almost a 95% drop down of poser support since the beginning of 2023 might be even more, this brings it to a point to think that already spending time to publish a Item even if it was made is not profitable in any way. Sure still creating but then all the work to publish, packing, making good promos ending up not to be very motivating if the creations just lays there as a Dust-catcher in the net.

It all might be due the actual financial situation that happen globally, but when I see how much interest there is for DS then I rather doubt that this would be the main reason. This brings a creator to a point changing the application as with the knowledge for 3D is normally good enough for other programs, considering that these other Programs need to be used to create poser assets, poser is mainly just the presentation tool for the finished Item.   

The trouble with quoting facts and figures about a software program is that, in a lot of cases, no source is given for that information.  Information drawn from forums is rarely valid as most users do not visit forums and included in those are many that remain in lurk mode.  Other sources may have an agenda of their own to promote so working out how accurate information may be is difficult if not impossible.  Comparisons are often invalid because they are compering apples with pears in many cases.  Information from 'those in the know' is highly suspect as most people who are really in the know would not be allowed to share the information (unless you are a 21 year old working to intelligence apparently). 

Then there are those how can see into the future, such as all those that have seen the death of Poser for every one of the 22 years I have been using it.   Like the hypochondriac who had 'Told you I was ill' written on their grave stone, the soothsayers will be right at some point.