I've just downloaded and installed Poser 13 having had Poser 11 for a while and got fed up with it running too slowly if you had too many Keyframes in the Animation Palette. Poser 13 runs slightly faster, so that's workable now, but I opened a scene from Poser 11 and went to render it.

WHILE Firefly renders, the output between Poser 11 and 13 look identical. However, once the render finishes, there's this image "twitch" that looks like it's either compressing the picture/model or shifting it, and the end result is pretty ugly.

Is there a setting I'm missing that turns off that end "twitch?"

Strangely, this even occurs from a simple Antialias Document render.

I've seen a similar issue with Superfly renders that might be a gamma correction issue. I've posted a query with the beta test team.

I think it occurs with all renders to be honest. I mean, the issue is critical enough for me to want a refund. Hopefully there's something I'm missing settings-wise or a fix happening soon. :<

Same here I already mentioned it in the forums. Firefly is of no use in Poser 13 renders get horizontal cuts and gets squished together you can even see the lines. so not a gamma issue like in superfly it is simply a broken render engine ! 

Firefly in Poser 13 of no use you need to use a older Poser version for that feature !

Also the final render after saving in Firefly is of less quality then a firefly render in poser 11 you see this when you enlarge over 100% with same settings.

Well lets call it ... New render engine with included Hiccup! in Superfly Gamma Hiccup and in Firefly squish Hiccup, a all new experience to render :) no other 3D app can do this 

Yeah, what vopehov506 said.  :-(

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I guess the developers and the testers were so busy playing with their new Supahtoy that they didn't bother to check if any of their "new and improved" features would cause problems with the old render engine.

I'll need to run a few more tests, but as I have zero interrest in Superfly at the moment, this might be the first version of Poser I have to return for a refund.

See, I'm NOT against improvements AT ALL. If Superfly one day works as reliably and predictably as Firefly (and comes with a nice OpenGL preview), I'd be more than happy to invest 2K in a new laptop with a proper GTR card.

But as it looks now, even the slight performance gain in Firefly comes with a problem.

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BTW, the material room is hosed, too.

Whenever I change matrials, the OpenGL preview gets wonky.

A "reload texture" can usually fix this, but this is quite tiresome when you try to develop new shaders.

Using the material room also was the only time I managed to crash Poser 13 to desktop.

I see. Thank you for the responses! Would either of you or anyone happen to know if Poser 12 also has this issue? I may go for that instead.  I've never been a fan of the Superfly renderer really and though I know it's -capable- of good renders, I can only get ... grainy looks, and a huge amount of processing time just to achieve that, and so found it better to just not bother.

No, Poser 12 has other issues. :) You may have better luck with it for Firefly, albeit I heard people reporting great Firefly success with P13 as well.

I'm curious--have you reported this as a bug yet? This one, or the material room crash, or any of the issues you mention here? (I know ghostship2 already did for Superfly)

'no other 3d app can do this'--is a bit spurious.

Did some testing of firefly and I don't see what it is that you are saying.  Of course all there is a statement that it does not work with no pictures or anything else to describe the issue.  As Rhia474 says submit a bug report and include the scene that is causing the issue.  Use the Export-> Save for sharing and select those items that are needed to create the problem.

This is odd. The firefly renders I've done don't have any problems. I recommend reporting it to https://support.posersoftware.com/ so they know about it and can fix it

I did some more tests.

The problem happens shortly before the render finishes.

It is hardly noticeable with portraits, but it can be easily spotted in background figures.

There is a slight diagonal shift between an (antialiased) OpenGL preview and the final render, but that is normal. (PP-2014 and P11 do it, too)

BUT...

if you compare screenshots taken of the preview render and the finished render, the distortion becomes obvious:

Notice the enlarged forehead and the squished face on the final render at the right!

(I disabled all shadows for a better comparison.)

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Now when you EXPORT the render and look at it in IrfanView, the distortion goes away!

This is probably a non-issue for most, but I find this behaviour highly annoying, as I spend most of my time looking and comparing renders INSIDE Poser.

I can't do proper figure work, if the test - renders I'm looking at are distorted.

PP-2014 and P11 don't do that.

I haven't installed P12, as I only bought that to get the better upgrade price.

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Anyway, if it can be fixed in a reasonable timespan, fine.

If not, I have to return P12 and P13 and go back to P11, speed increase or not.

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There are more problems with OpenGL in P13, btw.

I already mentioned the Material room.

But there is also some ugly self-shadowing (black polygons) with older / low rez figures. Subdivision can reduce it, but the point of using older /low res figures is to have a more responsive OpenGL.

And preview subdivision of course negates that.

Have to add:

In Poser 13, antialiasing does the "squishing", too, just like KidRolePlay mentioned.

Only the "unmolested" OpenGL (and the exported final render) aren't distorted.

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Speaking of exporting: Preview Renders can't be exported anymore using the normal "Tear off" dialog in P13.

This will result in a completely black picture.

Only if you export from the "Recent Renders" bar, will the preview picture be properly exported.

Actually it is really strange that all these testers and the programmers did not realize that issue, It is the most important part of poser having a clear render that you can compare with the slider. They seem to need a Eye check and some glasses as it seems. I'v noted that issue right on the beginning and mentioned it . It can't be overseen, well unless you probably have an old un sharp screen that is blurring out the Image :) or it is that dirty that details cant be seen anymore.

Such a thing normally does not need to be reported and probably what most users thought, it is a crystal clear issue that would be expected to be fixed quiet fast!

For the ones who do not see the issue, Look for the hiccup right at the end, in Firefly as well in superfly. until fixed I just call it the Poser hiccup-engine :)

It is like taking a picture and the object moves right at the moment when you take the shot , as if someone is shaking your screen or hitting on top of it right at the end. Hope that issue does not cause permanent Damage to the screens

asking for screenshots in such a case is a real joke! sounds a little like a excuse not wanting to fix an issue

I don't do Firefly at all these days, not since Poser 11 so I cannot comment on the situation with Firefly.  What I am sure of is I am not seeing this problem with Superfly, for the record, I already have glasses and, being a diabetic, I have my eyes tested every year, the last one just six months ago. 

On superfly you have a mayor discrepancy of light and contrast right at the end of the render. I am still trying to find a way around this Hiccup in superfly as well ! It is almost impossible making a render with hard contrast like in a dungeon as at the end it will change the contrast and lighten up your render. only way to fix it is in a photo app making some postworks on the lights. So both engines have a issue and fail right at the end not just firefly, just that firefly is way worse then superfly.

A tester is supposed to test both render options. btw programmers should also check if there renderings are working correctly, so I assume they do not have a solution for the issue ATM and are well aware of the issue. 

Here the sample for the issue

and here is the fix

So now without joking around Put your glasses on Please !

every single border is a mess, useless results! you can see the errors especially on the eyes, lips, on the chin you even get horizontal lines. Looks like an old broken tv with horizontal lines. So seriously if the preview is better then the final render with a high setting then there is clearly a big problem

I recommend reporting this to support.posersoftware.com so they can address it. 

I recommend reporting this to support.posersoftware.com so they can address it. 

It needs to be submitted by the specific person who experienced it because it may be unique to their configuration and workflow, hence all the questions

 All error reporting forms for any software follow the same method, Poser is no exception .

Speaking of exporting: Preview Renders can't be exported anymore using the normal "Tear off" dialog in P13.

This will result in a completely black picture.

Only if you export from the "Recent Renders" bar, will the preview picture be properly exported.

I can see those same horizontal lines where the image is squished together on SF renders. I will make a ticket on GIT for this. And, yes, us beta testers ARE testing firefly and everything else. Some are more experienced with one aspect or another of Poser but not all. Please be kind. This is a beta release of the software and we are doing the best we can under the circumstances.

@AmbientShade:

This one. The little square symbolizing a sheet of paper with the arrow.

If you hover above it, it says "Tear Off" in the title bar.

When I use it to export a preview render (jpg 100%), the file is exported 100% black.

No picture at all.

When I export directly from the "Recent Renders" column, it exports as expected.

@ghostship2:

And here I thought Poser 12 was the beta?

;-)

But seriously, I'm asking for a refund. 

I was also made aware of several other issues regarding Poser 13 that I find unacceptable.

(But which I won't discuss in public)

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Anyway, I wish you all good luck with Poser 13, but I'll stay with Poser 11 for the foreseeable future.

I think I gave it an honest try, but there wasn't much in it for me in the first place.

AmbientShade posted at 10:42 AM Sun, 7 May 2023 - #4464549

JoePublic posted at 11:25 PM Sat, 6 May 2023 - #4464514

Speaking of exporting: Preview Renders can't be exported anymore using the normal "Tear off" dialog in P13.

This will result in a completely black picture.

Only if you export from the "Recent Renders" bar, will the preview picture be properly exported.

What do you mean by "tear off" dialog?

if you save a Preview render for example if you want to show the wireframe or especially if you use the comic styles where you absolutely need the Preview render option you get this result when saving your render.

Screenshot of the work to be rendered

And here your stunning saved Preview Render to get this comic effect  !

As you can see you get a all new experience ! a Black render ..... That render engine is totally broken !! Comic creators are going to make a happy dance for sure :) 

In the poser window you will see the render of the preview but also with broken horizontal lines ( No Optional Screenshot possible )  so for this options poser is of no more use. Hope they do not take these options away as shortcut fix !

Has anything been tested before releasing Poser 13 ? or were they just blinded by a Holy Grale ? This is a mayor hiccup blowing it right to the dark side .

It has been said on this thread multiple times that other users are *not* experiencing this issue. It's also been said ad nauseam that if you have an issue that is repeating on your system, please submit a ticket so it can be investigated properly. That is the industry accepted way of tracking down software issues by end users.

Not sure how many times that needs to be repeated.

Rhia474 posted at 12:35 PM Sun, 7 May 2023 - #4464566

It has been said on this thread multiple times that other users are *not* experiencing this issue. It's also been said ad nauseam that if you have an issue that is repeating on your system, please submit a ticket so it can be investigated properly. That is the industry accepted way of tracking down software issues by end users.

Not sure how many times that needs to be repeated.

btw in this thread already 4 users are encountering the same Issues you are the first that does not have any of them at all ! 

Dude, I'm not having any issue exporting an image with the tear off thing. So, yeah, some of these issues are with your system.

Read this thread !

https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/2979205/poser-12-colored-spots-only-show-white

you note a pretty obvious problem that was not consistent in previous poser versions but then you get told it has been fixed in the next version 13 and sorry poser 12 has had he's last update already. But it is still on sale and sorry colored lights ain't working and will not be fixed. Is this a way of handling Customers that pay in good faith ? so it seems poser 12 just has to live with only white lights .... but probably also just a unique user issue based on a system error!   

ghostship2 posted at 12:59 PM Sun, 7 May 2023 - #4464569

Dude, I'm not having any issue exporting an image with the tear off thing. So, yeah, some of these issues are with your system.

Seems I have a system that is having only issues with Poser13 LOL, but all other high end 3D programs work like a charm ! and btw older Poser versions also do not show such issues.

FYI, for those having problems with the tear-off not saving, the export image still saves properly.

I don't understand why it working via a new way in a more advanced version of the software is an issue. Learning new ways of doing something is a way of progress. Or am I missing something?

vopehov506 posted at 1:13 PM Sun, 7 May 2023 - #4464570

Read this thread !

https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/2979205/poser-12-colored-spots-only-show-white

you note a pretty obvious problem that was not consistent in previous poser versions but then you get told it has been fixed in the next version 13 and sorry poser 12 has had he's last update already. But it is still on sale and sorry colored lights ain't working and will not be fixed. Is this a way of handling Customers that pay in good faith ? so it seems poser 12 just has to live with only white lights .... but probably also just a unique user issue based on a system error!   

The Poser development team could save themselves a wealth of time and anguish by not making Poser backwards compatible.  They could also decide to ditch Firefly and run with the new boy, but that is not what they chose to do.  By all means raise the issues but give them some credit for trying to please most people.

I personally think we need a reality check, to pay $249.95, or $99.95 on upgrade is exceptional value for what Poser does, bugs and all.  Some may well think it is unusable for what they want to do but that does not stop other users finding not only useable but great deal of fun.  

JoePublic posted at 11:37 AM Sun, 7 May 2023 - #4464556

@AmbientShade:

This one. The little square symbolizing a sheet of paper with the arrow.

If you hover above it, it says "Tear Off" in the title bar.

When I use it to export a preview render (jpg 100%), the file is exported 100% black.

No picture at all.

When I export directly from the "Recent Renders" column, it exports as expected.

I've never bothered much with that icon because all it appears to do is show what I've already rendered in its own frame. Where is the option to save it in P11?

It seems to have the same functionality in 13, but I still don't see an option to save the image and there doesn't appear to be reference to that icon in the user manual.

I save via file - export - image, or via the right arrow in the upper right corner.

ETA: The tear off icon isn't even present in P12 and I never noticed, lol.

OK now that I've realized you have to close the tear off in order to save it (durp), I can also confirm that it saves a black image in preview render, but not in SF or FF.

But on the same note, it takes the same number of mouse clicks to save a tear off as it does to export from the arrow 2 icons away from the tear off icon, and I can't find any difference in quality of the saved image otherwise. So... ?

The bug should be reported. But I feel like the priority level would be pretty low on this one considering it only affects preview renders and there are 3 other image export options (file menu, right arrow menu, recent render menu) that don't result in a black image.

Should also be noted that some bugs do only affect certain hardware configurations. That doesn't make them any less important, especially for those experiencing them.

Well sure a really old feature that rip off , was always working ! It even looked a little better a long time ago, I always use this feature especially when making promo renders and documentations for assets. And naturally it includes allot of preview renders to show the wireframes . But ok if it is so unnecessary just let them remove this feature as well Firefly guess it is the easy way to fix an issue.  

That old P4 render engine still makes pretty neat renders ! for certain things still very useful for sure .....

but anyway I have no Idea what these programmers of poser are doing or if they really know what they are doing !? Poser 13 is still full of old hyperlinks to RDNA, contentparadise, the old activation servers and the producturlsupport.com in the launch startup ! so no wonder that allot of issues occur in Poser if it tries to access all these servers that are supposed to be  dead.

I did report the bug for the preview saves. I did not report the problem with the firefly renders as I haven't experienced it so I can't answer any questions.

Anyway just for the fun here a final render of Firefly in one of the first engines without any horizontal lines, so sure not a system error, clean sharp borders, no distortions. Had it loaded so can as well post it as sample.

and here the result of poser13 same settings same light but a huge quality loss, watch the lines that should be sharp ......

Tear off seems to have been omitted in Poser 12.

Maybe in re-implementing it something got missed and the preview render was the casualty of it.

Tear off seems to have been omitted in Poser 12.

Maybe in re-implementing it something got missed and the preview render was the casualty of it.

Confirming no external links in Poser 13 on my end either. Again, as DCArt said, if content from older versions was reinstalled directly into Poser 13's runtime. Recommended method is using EXTERNAL runtimes and then link them back to Poser via the Add Library function.

You can't blame program for user error.

Rhia474 posted at 7:01 PM Sun, 7 May 2023 - #4464613

Confirming no external links in Poser 13 on my end either. Again, as DCArt said, if content from older versions was reinstalled directly into Poser 13's runtime. Recommended method is using EXTERNAL runtimes and then link them back to Poser via the Add Library function.

You can't blame program for user error.

Nah it's always someone else that doesn't know what they are doing, right?

AmbientShade posted at 6:30 PM Sun, 7 May 2023 - #4464607

Tear off seems to have been omitted in Poser 12.

Maybe in re-implementing it something got missed and the preview render was the casualty of it.

Well do not have Poser 12 skipped that one as it was predicted never to come out of the pre-launch, just a waist of money. Remove what you have broken so you do not need to fix it. I guess poser 13 will end up with just superfly render engine. The rest is just old stuff that ain't working right, and who uses Firefly anyway ! users will forget that it ever existed. No wonder that the Poser installer is getting smaller LOL

this thread is about Firefly render issues. Please stay on topic.

The tear-off not getting preview render is already being worked on. That will be fixed on a service release. Probably not the next one as it's "eminent" and I don't want to accidentally break something by sneaking something in after it's in testing.

The pixel shift from FireFly renders is ... squirmy. I may need some detailed input here. I've taken a screen grab from just before the render completes overlaid it on the saved image from the same render. They're pixel perfect except for the render dialog ...

This leads me to believe the pixel shift is just that the final image isn't displaying correctly in the Poser. I need to be sure I'm chasing the right bug here. I'd appreciate if those of you seeing this could try the same thing and see if it's just the image display in Poser. I don't want to send the coders on a snipe hunt.

On superfly you have a mayor discrepancy of light and contrast right at the end of the render. I am still trying to find a way around this Hiccup in superfly as well ! It is almost impossible making a render with hard contrast like in a dungeon as at the end it will change the contrast and lighten up your render. only way to fix it is in a photo app making some postworks on the lights. So both engines have a issue and fail right at the end not just firefly, just that firefly is way worse then superfly.

nerd posted at 8:59 PM Sun, 7 May 2023 - #4464635

The tear-off not getting preview render is already being worked on. That will be fixed on a service release. Probably not the next one as it's "eminent" and I don't want to accidentally break something by sneaking something in after it's in testing.

The pixel shift from FireFly renders is ... squirmy. I may need some detailed input here. I've taken a screen grab from just before the render completes overlaid it on the saved image from the same render. They're pixel perfect except for the render dialog ...

This leads me to believe the pixel shift is just that the final image isn't displaying correctly in the Poser. I need to be sure I'm chasing the right bug here. I'd appreciate if those of you seeing this could try the same thing and see if it's just the image display in Poser. I don't want to send the coders on a snipe hunt.

Superfly Image display is changing the contrast and light this remains when saving the Image to Jpg and Png .

Rendered the same scene FireFly in P11 and P13. The saved images are identical. If you're seeing a difference in JPG. Well that's JPG. It's just lossy format.

Not so much in the 3D world, I think Poser a DS users and the like, are more informed but in my dealings with people in photographic circles I was amazed just how many used JPG and kept making changes saving and reloading, making more changes and saving again not realising they were throwing away detail on every subsequent save.

It would be a shame to spend so much time setting up a scene for a beautiful render only to lose so much with JPG.  I understand why it is done but to that degree we rarely see renders at their best in these threads as JPG is a must for uploading.

hornet3d posted at 3:50 AM Tue, 9 May 2023 - #4464764

Not so much in the 3D world, I think Poser a DS users and the like, are more informed but in my dealings with people in photographic circles I was amazed just how many used JPG and kept making changes saving and reloading, making more changes and saving again not realising they were throwing away detail on every subsequent save.

It would be a shame to spend so much time setting up a scene for a beautiful render only to lose so much with JPG.  I understand why it is done but to that degree we rarely see renders at their best in these threads as JPG is a must for uploading.