Let's talk about post work.

Important: I love looking at images that have post work done. Some of the most amazing art I have seen in a long time happens right here int he Poser forum by our post work geniuses. In fact, it was these images that have inspired my efforts in making prints available and working on a Gallery show in NY for digital artists.

This is not a rant against postwork, nor is this about galleries or anything of the type :)

But I also hold a special place in my heart for those images that say "no postwork". There is a good reason for that. See, I can't draw. Not even a little. I can't do a straight line with a rule. I suck. With Photoshop and a lot of work I can hold my own at times - but I don't have the ... whatever it is that lets the people who do postwork do it. These are people who could probably do it all with oil and canvas. Anyway, I don't have it.

That's OK... because I have some other skills that I enjoy - so I don't feel bad or anything.

That all being said - when I see something without postwork I see something >I< might be able to do. Not that it is less artistic - and maybe I need to buy the texture ... but I can DO THAT... because the machine is doing the drawing... the part I have no skill at. For similar reasons I can design passable websites... even though I am not a gifted designer. I get by.

I >love< seeing what comes from the machine "straight" - it is real to me in an odd way. No postwork images mean I can animate them, I can  easily change the pose or the clothing without having to re-draw 4 hours of Photoshop work. I can play with the lighting ... I can move the camera.

It's a real place. And I can get INSIDE it.

And that is precious to me.

Anyway, just a thought on why even though all is fair in art an I really like all that I see... I get a little smile on my face when I see the phrase "no post".

The same by me :-)) Cant draw,im not a artist, but i like my poser- and brycepics,and i love to play around with the programs.And thats what counts for me.

Hehe.
Well, I can do straight lines. But I can't do curved ones. :P
No post rules. ;)

I can draw, but I prefere not to when it comes to CG art. Sometimes Im forced to with Poser. Lot of things I dont know how to build yet...like hair and other things, but for one or another reason Im always to thinking: I wanna make this pic so it could be animated as well. Drawing things is like cheating to me, but only to me. I still enjoy seeing pics that contains postwork.

Well, I don't know. I love postworked images, but I can't draw to save my life. The only postwork I generally to in my own pics is with filters and suchlike, or fixing broken meshes. But I'm enjoying learning how far that can take me. I'd like to think there's a place for both.

i like this thread! Hope you don't mind hearing from someone who actually draws pretty well. (Straight lines are drafting, not drawing!) :^) There is certainly room for any kind of image you want to create! Time and viewer education will help people get over the notion that CG is "bad photography," or "cheating"--both of these comments hurt me, too, because i adore CG/3D Meantime, i love good 3D that makes the machine do as much of the work as possible. Then, post work just makes up for deficiencies in the render engine or the meshes--it's a little repair here and there. They even do post on the really great movie 3D animations, so that's no shame. And CG in this vein is the dreams-made-flesh kind of magic. On the other hand, some "painterly" CG takes a good render in and integrates it and the digital painting so far that you can't tell where one ends and another begins. It's a wonderful new kind of painting, and a different kind of magic. So, whether you go in one direction or the other, i guess the thing is not to make it LOOK like you did post work at all! i say, do what ever it takes to get where you're going, creatively.

Certain little things in Poser will glitch on us, such as an elbow poking through the sleeve, etc. This can't be helped, it's just a quirk of the program. In this case, postwork is necessary to cover up the flaw that Poser caused. My take is that an image is what the artist makes it. If post work is part of it, then it's OK with me. Some things can't be achieved in either Poser or Bryce and have to be added in Photoshop, simply because it doesn't exist in Poser or Bryce (or whatever program you're using). Certain special effects, for instance. I think that Photoshop is just another tool to complete an idea. It doesn't matter to me. Sure, it's amazing when someone achieves a "perfect" image with no postwork, but it doesn't happen for most of us, especially if we have a certain result in mind that Poser or Bryce doesn't do internally. Photographers use Photoshop to retouch photos. That's what the program was created for. So, there's no reason why it can't be used in artwork, as well. Just my two cents worth. Melanie

" So, there's no reason why it can't be used in artwork, as well." Of course not - it's a perfectly valid thing and an amazing set of skills in and of itself (heck just look at ToxicAngels work!). I just get a different warm jolt with the types is all.

I can draw, paint, and sculpt, but I like to use as little post work as I can. I have to do something about holes in the clothes, or when I don't like the way the top of the head looks with transparent poseable curls. Some of it is pure laziness. It takes me days to get a regular CG render I don't hate. By that time the last thing I feel like doing is another 4 days of a Photoshop concoction epic. I appreciate work by people who are good at it, like picky and others. There are still alot of things Poser does not have, like a decent gorilla model, or clothing with ruffles.

Well, since I am like a lot of the one posting to this thread, I can't work a mouse or wacom pad in a paint program worth a flip. I use to could draw some if I got really inspired, but I was never truly great at it. So I love seeing the works of artist who can do that sort of thing, because it amazes me. Like the folks who do the pencil drawings. One color, black usually, on paper. Amazing. My idea of post work is signing my name on my pic when I am done with it. I like that, cause I am done with it. Now, I don't even do that. I made up a prop signiture and now sign my stuff in Poser. I like that much better as I don't have to crack open the paint program. Paint programs scare me. You never really know what is lurching inside one, just waiting to get all over your pictures and mess em up. :o)

Talos, just remember how may years it took Michelangelo to paint the chapel ceiling. ;) Melanie

I do a lot of post work. And I had that idea in mind when I first bought poser. But I also have a great deal of respect for people who can do some really amazing work with 'no post'. Eric Westray immediately comes to mind. But I also have a lot of respect for people like picky and voodoo. I look at stuff like that, and just sit in awe. I had the mind set of a painter going in, so I try to get done with the rendering part as fast as I can. When I first started and my post skills pretty much stank, yeah... I would do as much as I could in poser to make the image 'clean'. But now I can fix bad joints, etc in just a few minutes with PS. And for the record, I've drawn since I could hold a pencil and done acrylic, watercolor, oil and airbrush painting as well as pen and ink and few other media. I really like the freedom you have with a digital media. Especially an undo button. points to the two blank keys that once said 'Ctrl' and 'Z' -Kage

Well, I came in on this thread late, but here's my 2 cents. I think all you people who say you can't draw might just be selling yourselves short. Drawing hair, for example, is not very difficult. Try one of the excellent tutorials here and elsewhere. Patching meshes, smoothing curves and so forth is a snap! Use ALL the tools available. I understand what you're saying, but try it sometime -- and keep trying. The great thing about computer art is that you can undo and save alternate version. I think you might surprise yourself. (And I can't draw a straight line either -- that's what rulers are for!)

LOL! Thanks for the encouragement Dave. Actually, I have been trying, just not succeeding too well. But I suppose I am getting a little better in Corel. At least now I know what all the buttons and icons are for. :o)

"Drawing hair, for example, is not very difficult. Try one of the excellent tutorials here and elsewhere. Patching meshes, smoothing curves and so forth is a snap! Use ALL the tools available. I understand what you're saying, but try it sometime -- and keep trying. The great thing about computer art is that you can undo and save alternate version."

I have no doubt that I could work at it and become a good - if not particularly unique - with post work. I have a good knowledge of PS and a decent design head.

But I am in this for animation - virtual characters moving in non pre-rendered ways and interacting with my and each other to create images that freeze frame a world that doesn't exist outside my machine...

The project we just signed on for needs 5 hours of lip-synched animated 3D of a Poser model rendered in Max. That's more than 216,000 frames of animation. And I needs to be VERY realistic.

Post worked hair is not an option :)

Animation would be a whole new thread. One thing I notice is that the more people are into animation, the more vanilla and generic the Poser characters being used, as if there is not time for both animation and interesting character design (likely). I mean, no interesting morphs, hair, or textures or bump maps. Do transparencies work with animation? Bump maps? Michael and Victoria? There is usually no attempt at texturing of any kind! Maybe any fancy clothing would rupture six ways from Sunday with animation. How am I wrong?

"as if there is not time for both animation and interesting character design (likely). I mean, no interesting morphs, hair, or textures or bump maps. Do transparencies work with animation? Bump maps? Michael and Victoria? There is usually no attempt at texturing of any kind! Maybe any fancy clothing would rupture six ways from Sunday with animation. How am I wrong?"

Well, I think for many hobbiests it's a matter of rendering time and machinery. If your goign to animate a file of any length the rendering time (obviously) goes way, way up so I can see where they would cut down ont he other issues.

We are trying to render the best our "prosumer" level hardware and software can give us... that means Poser figures with upgraded textures rendered in Max with finalRender as the global illumination engine. With hair and all the rest of it. Though to be fair we might go to a hair plug in for Max to get more natural hair movement.

However - there is a really serious problem with Poser clothing. So much so that we are looking into other solutions to put cloths our Poser figures for the most part.