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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Dec 02 5:01 am)
Subject: DAZ on CL promotion. Warning: long-winded, but worth the read.
Well said Dan. Thanks for posting and thanks for being a part of the Poser community. I still think to how much other things cost in comparison to the cost of Poser, Victoria, Michael and other Poser products. We are a luck community indeed to have such quality in your products and afforability of them. Again thanks. James
Well said, and I approve. However- I will moderate my current stance as wanting nothing more to do with CL when they acknowledge that their promotion was worded in a way that seemed to be giving a favorable deal to warez people, and excluding legitimate customers; and that it was a mistake to imply that it was the responsibility of us as customers to help them cover the costs of thievery, while on the other hand offering such a program. Until then, no. I need at this point to see that a company that I am dealing with is capable of ethics. They should have just started out by saying lower prices for everyone.
Your observations are dead on right Dan, and from a business standpoint, I hope your statement may help calm the troubled waters a bit. Poser, Curiouslabs, and Daz have enriched the lives of all the user base here, both hobbiests and professional developers. I believe what has so many distraught at the moment though, is the sneaking suspicion that is coming to many right now, that Meta_Mannix who has been badly verbally abusing the community members and any who have criticized this "amnesty" program, is actually Steve Cooper, whom we all hold in the highest esteem. I hope and pray it is not, for it would be a heartbreaking tradgedy to be so badly spoken to by someone we all admire and have put on a pedestal. I would encourage Steve to swiftly speak to dispell this rumour if it is just a rumour.
The first time I'd seen this yesterday it hurt so bad I wanted to screem or cry I don't know. It tore me up inside. Maybe it still does but I forced my self to wait and not just react. I can see CLs intentions are good and CLs people are some of the best. Weather or not CL made a good or bad decision I'm gonna make the best of this and try to get people I know to take advantage of the operatunity to buy Poser and join in on the fun. It's an operatunity to get a lot more people into Poser 4. Any one who has been waiting and saving to get Poser should jump in and get it now. This is a operatunity to turn a negative into a positive so even if it hurts I'm going with DAZ on this. P.S. Curious Labs, as a show of support for this community, I'm expecting a realy good upgrade price later down the road when a Poser 5 comes out. Other wise I'm gonna realy feel hung out to dry.
I like neurocyber's last comment. :o) I think that's a great idea. I've found this whole topic interesting and I've learned a lot from it. I liken it to my own much much smaller business and it's helpful to learn the not so obvious do's and don't's, those do's and don't's that tend to sneak up on you, the ones that seem like a good idea at the time and you only realize the mistake after the fact. I strive for diplomacy in my dealings with others. This whole thing has been very educational for me personally.
Well, I've been thinking about buying Poser 4, but reading about this "promotion" does not exactly make me anxious to go and spend $219 if people who stole the software can get a much better deal for their "upgrade"! If they are willing to be so generous with these people why can't they do the same for legitimate customers and give them the same price?
So I have a question, that may or may not be answered... but I'm curious now. The people I work with are well aware of what I do with Poser, they've seen my artwork, and most of them like it. A few of them have asked me if I would give them a copy of it, and I said that I couldn't, but that it wasn't that as expensive as some of the other 3D applications... Now according to some of what I've read, I could take advantage of this 'amnesty' program and use my serial number to buy more copies at a reduced price... which would be the legal/moral way to do it... but what's to stop someone who wanted Poser but couldn't afford it at the time from finding an illegal copy of it online now and taking advantage of this program? Seems to me that in a way this is almost incouraging warez activity... in a weird round about way... it would make more sense to me if CL, as some people have suggested, had just put Poser 4 on sale instead... shrug Now I'm not complaining mind you, I actually paid for my copy of Poser, back when it was still Metacreations even, and I don't feel ripped off so much by this, because, as someone else pointed out too, if someone has an illegal copy of it, then they weren't going to buy it anyway... and I don't think that most of the people with illegal copies are going to pay the cost now to get a legal version... if they were going to pay for it to begin with, they would have by now, but I could be wrong. The whole thing is interesting to say the least...
Cin - Yes, you can get additional copies for $129. The only difference between this and a regular sale or upgrade is that a regular sale is full price and we exclude "bad" serial numbers from regular upgrade pricing. And you, for example, wouldn't be able to get more copies of Poser 4 for discount pricing. Here, we don't care where the serial number comes from, you get Poser for $129, making this a limited time sale, amnesty offer, and you able to buy additional copies for less. Anthony Hernandez Curious Labs
Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=483286
Sue88, go ahead and use the serial number starlet posted in the linked thread and buy it at the lower price. CL has invited anyone who reads these forums to get the program at that price and has even provided the serial number to do it. No previous install of any kind (warez or otherwise) is needed because what you will get is the full program, not a "needs to find a previous install or it won't work" upgrade like you often get from other companies (which really sucks BTW...reinstalling MS office was a real pain when I bought a new PC). Thanks for posting Dan. I appreciate Daz' businesslike attitude toward the matter, and you taking the time to share your thoughts with us.
Thank you, scifiguy. I admit I had not noticed that thread before. They also talk about academic discounts in those messages. My husband is a univ. professor, so I guess we could get it with an academic discount but usually that means that you can't use it commercially. Do you guys know what exactly that means and is it a really serious thing? Thanks.
Sue88, Regarding academic discounts, any person with student or professor ID can get the discount. Some college book stores sell our products and we have many academic resellers. Please email sales@curiouslabs.com, and we will email you a list of academic resellers. You can also have your university book store order the product if they do not carry it. Hope this answers your question a little bit. :-) Regards, Karen Cooper Curious Labs
hey I think the idea is to allow the person who may have obtained an illegal copy to buy in and then legitamize them so they will buy more product. The more people who are addicted to and continue to buy the better even for those who purchased at full price....the name of the game is cash flow...and with the recent economic slowdown cash can flow from the moon and the businesses will accept it... Most of all everyone wants poser 5 and improvements, if we allow others to throw money in the pot so to speak they will have to buy the upcoming upgrades... Maybe the solution is as easy as giving the non-amnesty purchasers something also, gift certificates or rebates to apply toward an upgrade.....an extra license to run it on two home computers....something that is no money out of pocket...
Lorraine, that's what I was about to say. I think the idea here is to give those using illegal copies the opportunity to buy a legal copy, resulting in fewer illegal users. In this case, the end justifies the means. Maybe they've been using illegal copies because they couldn't afford to buy the full product. Maybe I'm just eternally optimistic, but I can't believe that ALL people using a bad copy are just trying to rip everyone off. That's stereotyping. I think everyone has their own reasons. I personally would rather have registered copies of my programs just to get the discounts on upgrades, technical support, etc., which is why I always buy my software from either the manufacturer or a reputable software store. And besides, not all the people who benefit from this offer are warez users. Let's remember, this is also for those who got the magazine cover CD copies where the upgrade offer was only good in the UK. Now, the folks in other countries can get a break on the newer version, too. We can't just concentrate on the illegal users solely. They aren't the only ones getting a bargain here. Curious Labs would have done themselves a favor by allowing the folks in the US and other countries who got the magazine CD cover copy the upgrade benefit, too. Those were sales lost because they only allowed the UK to participate. maybe if they had extended the offer to the US and other places, there might not be so many people using it illegal copies and it would have been more money for CL. It wasn't a smart marketing plan, if you ask me. Dan, thank you for an intelligent and mature message. I appreciate your thoughts and agree with everything you said. You and everyone at DAZ are terrific! Keep up the great work. Melanie
"Lorraine, that's what I was about to say. I think the idea here is to give those using illegal copies the opportunity to buy a legal copy, resulting in fewer illegal users." They do- it's called pay-the-full-damn-price-like-everyone-else. You BUY an older version, you get an upgrade price. You copy or warez or steal an older version, you don't Any questions? (They should have called it the "poor baby" sale.)
Has anyone considered that Steve Cooper et al have worked in the graphics software industry for some time? They've nursed their products through development, marketing, distribution. On top of that they've had to run the company, pay their employees, overhead costs, taxes, etc. They've had to satisfy their customers all the while balancing on that tightrope between their needs and ours. Unlike many small new companies they've even managed to survive their first year. But I suppose that none of that really counts for very much since so many of us are so damned sure we know their business better than they do.
Thieves will continue to be thieves till they are caught and dealt with. I am more of a realist, they already have a completely Hacked version of the program. They laugh at this Community and continually rip it off, not just from the "warez" of Poser, but also "warez" of DAZ products, "warez" of brokered artists, even the stuff DSI has done is out there... Those people are not challenged, they are not dealt with, they sit and laugh at the people that are honest... they steal from all of you and treat it like a joke... and I am sorry, this idea only gives them more to laugh at us, to steal from us and it pisses me off. Great, it keeps the honest people honest. Just like locks on a door, easy to get past, but it keeps the honest people honest, but the crook with find a way in if they want to hard enough. Keeping that in mind, I think it is great that HONEST users of Poser get a chance to get Poser at a discount, that's great!! Hopefully and maybe it will pull some money in to DAZ and Curious Labs, and filter it's way into the Community... I truly hope it does, this Community survives and is based mostly upon their survival. But if Curious Labs is stressed out by the amount of "Hack/Cracked" versions of Poser that are out there right now, then they are in for a BIGGER surprise once they open their Online Store... wait until those products end up all over the Warez Boards... wonder if they will offer Amnesty for that too... Jack
That's what I'm getting at. Why does everyone keep focusong ONLY on the thieves? A whole LOT of other people with legitimate copies who got them free on a magazine cover are being given this same opportunity, too. There's a lot of negativism going on here. There are two sides of the coin. Millions of people bought that magazine. I bought it for a friend. These people are NOT thieves. They get a wonderful opportunity to upgrade it when they couldn't before because they didn't live in the UK. This was my point. I'm definitely NOT advocating for thieves. It just seems that too many people are concentrating ONLY on the one group of users and not considering the entire picture. Unfortunately, warez will happen and there really isn't anything that can be done about it. People still rob banks and convenience stores, too, even with the police out there. But can't we also look at the GOOD people who DON'T use warez, who want to get their upgrades? Sheesh. I feel like Mother, here. Let's simmer down. Melanie Sorry, I'm menopausal! I get a little testy once in a while. ;)
Attached Link: http://www.wire.org.uk/richer_sounds.html
Hi, The offer from the magazine wasn't valid for very long anyway, I tried to use it and though the web page showed the box, it didn't show you that you could no longer order it, (it just didn't have a "buy now" button) when I phoned up to ask about this they told me that they didn't have any in stock, weren't planning on getting anymore and that I couldn't upgrade from the magazine because it was a limited offer designed to clear thier stocks, etc. and that *really* pissed me off I can tell you, especially after they'd harvested my details to qualify for the offer. Though I'm a little confused by Micheleh's comment: "You copy or warez or steal an older version, you don't" I thought that was the point, it's warez, you don't have to pay for it. In fact, it's warez, and a pirate would be seriously offended, (or more likely laugh, and refuse to give it to you :) if you offered to pay for it. Indeed, during my days as an Amiga pirate, cash was never an issue, many's the time I gave the stuff away on floppies that I'd bought, so it was costing me money. I also don't think it comes down to being "good" either, software piracy is a fact of life, (just like taking home stationary from work, taking sick days when you're not sick, etc.) but it's also a core part of computer culture, of the entire scene itself. I've got mates in software houses, and let me tell you, they're the biggest pirates of the lot. They've had access to CD writers long before they were available commercially to the likes of us. From a mate who worked for a part of Electronic Arts, I got playstation games that were never released commerially, (as well as ones that were) and by that I mean complete games, not half finished junk. One of my favourite games is called Einhander, it's a flawless Japanese R-Type clone, incredible, but it was surplus to requirements... I remember having a competition with a reviewer in a games magazine in the UK long ago, (I had a commodore 64 at the time) he started posting hi-scores from a game that didn't exist in the UK, called "night mission pinball" I had a copy, so I wrote in with my score, nothing was said, and my scores were published. This was in a time before the internet was available, (and before the word "warez" as coined.) Today data moves in much the same way, the names have changed, I haven't heard of "Quartex" (a semi-legenday cracking crew in my day) in years, but the Bulletin Board scene is alive as it ever was, and just as exclusive. Personally as somebody who has lived in close proximity to computers for the past twenty years, (probably logging at least 2 hours a day on average, including holidays and weekends) I tend to view this as a good thing. The torch is passed on from one generation to the next, and the wheel keeps turning. Compared to a UK bank I was once told about that was losing 50,000 UK pounds a week in toilet roll, (no joke, it was being paid for and delivered, but never found! I got that from an old man who turned out to be a bank examiner, on the day he retired, he just walked in the shop and bought the most expensive bottle of scotch we had... But I digress :) Compared to that kind of fraud, "scene" software piracy is small beer. It's also part of the business, certianly the games business, where it's both a mark of how good your product is, and something that is worked into the "bottom line" when working out whether a game is feasable or not. In an amusing anecdote, one software house in the UK, (who shall remain nameless) were forced to postpone a launch when the pirate back end compiler setup they were using, bared it's teeth and deleted thier code base one Sunday morning. They were able to get a fairly complete copy (of thier own game) from a competitor, as one of thier developers had shared it with his mates... :) What am I trying to say with all this, simply that piracy is part of the culture, both in business and personal life. But to a business an "amnesty" makes a lot of sense, because every cent they recieve from a pirate is profit. It's money they never expected to make and never budgeted for. It's also a way of selling more upgrades, since you can't upgrade without a legitimate serial number, which is what you're getting here. It's also a way of clearing out excess inventory when you have a new product pending, otherwise the old boxes have to be stored for a while and then (hopefully) shipped to somebody who'll distribute it to the bargain bin at a knock down price. Otherwise you'll have to pay to dispose of it. There are (possibly apocrophal) stories about Atari using a landfill in New Mexico to get rid of 6 million E.T. games after they over produced the cartidge and the game bombed! The bottom line here, is that this is a business, and you have only once choice, whether or not to buy. CL owe you nothing, it says so in the license. Which is why there are different licences for governments, (who have more teeth) than for the likes of you or me. You can bitch and wail all you want, but the reality is you knowingly paid the price for a product you wanted, at a time of your chosing. you haven't lost $70 because $129 wasn't going to buy you poser4 at the time you bought it anyway. In fact just about the only people who get stung by this are shopkeepers, since they rarely get rebates, and if it's available on the web at a lower price then they usually lose a sale. There is a chain of Hi-Fi shops in the UK called "Richer sounds" (link attached) They have a bad reputation, but only because the other shops can't sell at the price they do. They buy end of line stock and knock it out cheap, (the landfill principal all over again) which annoys almost every other retailer, who bought it at the manufacturers price, and have to sell to the public at full price to make thier margin. So they tell people that if you go to Richer sounds you'll get factory returns, etc. FUD (Fear Uncertianty & Doubt, a favoured tatctic of Microsoft) applied to the high street. My amp is a Pioneer A400, I bought it on London Bridge, (the only place it was available) for 140 pounds, anywhere else in the UK and it would have cost me 270. By that reckoning anyone who didn't get on a bus and make the trip to London was losing 130 pounds, or by the logic appiled so far, was "owed" 130 quid by Pioneer... My amp came brand new, and boxed with an unbroken seal, (and having faked a few of those I know what to look for :) I got lucky, but I was willing to wait, if you weren't then you paid 270 and were just as happy. At the end of the day, this is clearing the decks for poser 5, it's a straight business decision, over which you have no input. Like it or not CL is a business, it exists to sell product, (and if doesn't it doesn't deserve to survive, think of it from an investors point of view) Like everyone but the pirates, (who'll *never* buy a copy) I will be buying one, because I personally think it's worth the money. In demanding the CL make some token show of contrition for this "outrage" you're simply costing them money, which is money they can't be spent expanding the user base, etc. If you boycott and bicker, you lose, we all lose. I'm probably going to take a lot of flack for this, it's an unpopular opinion, voiced when feeling is high, but how many of you have kept videos recorded from TV for more than 14 days. How many of you can honestly say that you've paid for every bit of shareware you've ever used/kept, or adhered to the letter of the law regarding software licences, (especially those of Microsoft, who's $30Bn in cash is a wonderfull salve to the conscience) "flame on" ladies and gents :) later jb
I really could care less about the money, even though from the standpoint of this promotion, I did the worst possible thing- I bought Poser 4 as my first copy of Poser- full price, period. So if my main concern were the money, that would do it, but it isn't. My main concern is the hypocricy implicit in a statement of "amnesty", which, as everyone knows, is something you extend toward criminals as a means of pardon. This represents conciliation, and a loss of integrity on the part of CL, the subject of which they have danced around but still not addressed. THAT is my complaint. (Not to mention the avoidance of the question by CL- this does not encourage trust.) Someone stated above that CL does not need us- no, they don't. They may like being unemployed, who knows.
My main concern is the hypocricy implicit in a statement of "amnesty"... I'm not sure why this is hypocrisy. As far as I know CL never promised to prosecute or kill the pirates. In fact, they've publicly acknowledged they cannot eliminate piracy but only attempt to reduce it. A temporary amnesty such as this may convert some pirates into legitimate users and hence would be a potential reduction. It is one method of many. It might not be an attempt you like but it is a possible partial solution. >This represents conciliation, and a loss of integrity... Conciliation is often a compromise but does not inherently have anything to do with loss of integrity. Life is a series of compromises but I have no intention of committing "honourable" harakari because of this. >...on the part of CL, the subject of which they have danced around but still not addressed. Just what is it that they have "danced around"? Via the original message and subsequent further explanations they expressed their actions and reasons quite clearly. An example quotation is "Here, we don't care where the serial number comes from, you get Poser for $129, making this a limited time sale, amnesty offer, and you able to buy additional copies for less." How can you possibly call this "dancing around" the question? How much clearer does it have to be? Again, you may not agree with them but they certainly are not avoiding the issue. You might also consider that the very fact they reply to our questions is itself a sign of their respect for us. After all, it is not as if they "owe" us an explanation- we are not stockholders in their company. I'm not saying you have to like CL's attempt in this instance. Indeed, you have the right to absolutely loath it and the right to say so. But if you are going accuse them of things let the accusations be ones of fact, not emotion. It is the rare and fortunate person who at some time in life has not found it necessary to do something s/he may have personally found disagreeable. Personally I am not unduly bothered by this episode which does not imply that I am in complete agreement with it. We cannot demand respect without also being willing to offer it. I give CL the respect of not trying to run their company for them, especially as I cannot possibly have the entire picture before me. Only time will determine CL's ultimate future, not the vocal mutterings of we few. I wish them well if for no other reason than I would like to see future versions of improved Poser.
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Realizing that I may get caught in the cross-fire of this whole thing, I thought it may be beneficial to share a few thoughts regardless. Many community members have been asking DAZs opinion regarding this issue. First let me admit that we have certainly made a blunder or two. :) But overall those of you who know us know that our heart in the right place and that we realize we are nothing without "you" the community. From my experience with Curious Labs, I believe that they are extremely interested in serving the Poser community. Just a side note: We have had a business relationship with Curious Labs/ Metacreations for many years now, with its inherent ups and downs. Currently the DAZ/Curious relationship is somewhat strained, due to unrelated issues. I mention this simply to avoid the misperception that this message is motivated by some good ol boys network.
Judging from the response of the community, Curious Labs new Amnesty program has struck a nerve with many people. I can empathize with those of you who feel frustrated with price-drops in products. (I have a laptop computer, need I say more?) I also recognize the vigilance of those of you who have fought so hard against warez activities and feel that this is condoning piracy. DAZ would not have made it through our first year of business without you, the honest customers who legitimately purchase our products and support our business, and those who have helped us to fight software piracy. I am sure that Curious Labs feels the same. With this being said, I would like to point out some of the potential benefits that I see in this new program and a few related ideas.
In my opinion, the Poser community is the best 3D community on the web. It is very strong and is a lot of fun to be a part of. This is especially impressive since the installed Poser base is relatively small compared to Photo Shop and other graphics programs. It is this strength of the community that supports the continual growth of products (available commercially and for free), techniques, education and friendships. If we can grow our existing community by getting more established users of Poser we will all benefit. By the same token, if Curious Labs can sell more product, they will have more resources to put into Poser development. More specifically, if we can get a lot of people to buy Poser 4 through this special offer (or in other ways) it may encourage Curious Labs to permanently change their prices for Poser 4 and future versions of Poser. A recent special promotion encouraged us at DAZ to cut the prices of Michael and Victoria 1 in half.
With the current situation as it is, lets all use this opportunity to help get others to purchase Poser. Even though DAZ currently has thousands of dollars-worth of Poser in our inventory that we may not be able to sell due to this promotion, we are still going to do our best to help promote this new opportunity. We are going to change our website Poser product page to link over to Curious Labs. We will also be mentioning the offer in our weekly email messages. While DAZ neither condemns nor endorses the implementation of the Amnesty promotion, we do feel that our collective reaction to it will have a real impact on the success of this community as a whole. If we redirect the focus of this promotion to the potential non-warez users that can take advantage of this offer (family, friends, multiple copies, etc.) then it could be turned into something very beneficial for all of us. Likewise, if we react negatively, we risk damaging our community.
Although the packaging of this promotion by Curious Labs may not have been the best approach, I hope it will turn out to be a good thing for every one. I believe that this is possible and that we can all work together to help grow the community.
Sincerely,
Dan Farr
President, DAZ Productions
P.S. We sincerely thank all of you who have worked to fight against warez. It is not only appreciated but effective. (We have seen a tremendous drop in piracy, due in large part to the communitys efforts.) Naturally this is an ongoing battle, so please dont give up the fight.