About a week ago, I was able to download a model that was articulate, specifically for Poser 4 and Pro Pack. Now this model did not have an object file, but I was able to bring it up in Poser and pose it, saved it as a object file and able to put it in another application..... now my question, if you sell a model, that comes complete with an .obj, cr2, pz3, rsr and texture map, all files needed for Poser and say someone buys that model and makes a mat for it and it includes the cr2 but not the .obj file, can anyone create this model without the object file, can they edit this mat files cr2 and create the model in Poser without the object file, just using the mat files, that have the cr2 & rsr? Very concerned only because someone made a mat file out of one of our models, and is giving it away for free, and because of the recent model I just got and it has no obj file, obviously it can be done, I should ask him to remove this free mat if this is indeed the case, because that means people are getting the model for free....right? Sharen

PoseMAT files don't contain the model. Is that what you were worried about?

Jeff is right, if its only a matfile ,no problem.Open it with an editor and you can see whats inside. Didnt know that a cr2 file of a figure can contain all information.But same happend to me.I created a posable figure inside poser( first making an obj-file in a modelling program,imported in poser,setup the hirachie...) all the way, than created "new figure". when i later opened the cr2-file there was no reference to the obj-file ,all was in the cr2.

so Thomas what are you saying? That you have a model that you can open and it doesn't call for an object file? I heard that you can create the model from the cr2, are you saying that in the mat file with the cr2, they won't be able to create the model? I did look inside the cr2, it looks like all information is there with a little more but it is not pointing to an object file? Sharen

What happened when you loaded that cr2 and then exported the geometry is that Poser used the cr2 to get to the copy of the geometry in the geometries folder and copy it from there. If there hadn't been a copy in the geomtries folder, you wouldn't have been able to do it and you wouldn't have even been able to load the cr2 in the first place. Or possibly that particular cr2 was one that had "embedded geometry", meaning that the obj file is actually contained within the cr2 itself. If you made your model with separate geometry then you don't have to worry about that. MAT files and poses are always safe. They never carry geometry (that's not quite true but I won't get into the exceptions because only people that really know what they're doing can make those and those people know enough not to compromise your copyright). Sometimes third party cr2s can wind up containing geometry if the maker wasn't all that expert and did something like creating new groups. It's easy to check this if you understand the basics of cr2 structure. Look for obj file style code in the first part of the cr2. In most cases when people make a cr2 to go with your model there's no problem. In general, it's a good thing if people make and distribute free add-ons for your stuff. It makes it more versatile and helps advertise your product.

Sharen, I'm finding this confusing. Are we talking about MAT poses or cr2s? They're completely different things.

I made a a posable figure following your tut.first making a obj-file and the whole way through hierachie editor and so on.I can load it ,its working and so on. But when i open the cr2 there is no reference to the obj-file but there is "custom geometrie" and than all the data. Similar to a prop. when i load it and can of course export as obj again. A matposefile there are only the seperate partnames of the obj and the corresponding textures and colors,nothing else.

Hi Sharen, when you create a CR2 or a PP2 this way, the geometry is embedded in the file, and there is indeed no OBJ. But a MAT file does not contain the geometry, and so is safe. CR2Edit will convert such embedded files to standard files with external OBJ's, creating the OBJ from the embedded info. This is required for brokered sales at DAZ. regards, Dan http://www.zenwareonline.com for CR2Edit, ZenPaint, ZenTile, VueMaster and the complete line of Zenware graphics apps

Yep. That's a cr2 with embedded geometry and no one else will be able to distribute an alternative cr2 for your character because there's no way for them to do it without it containing the mesh. And yes, the MAT pose only contains material settings information - definitely no geometry.

Then tell me why was I able to open a new model, with no object file from this other place I purchased. Are you saying the the object file indeed is in there, it is just not pointing to it like on the first line of the normal cr2's that I see? Sharen

Either it used one of the existing geometries that you had prior to purchase (it would do that if it was a character for Posette for example) or it had embedded geometry (that's unusual in purchased models but it does happen). How about posting the first 20 or so lines of the file you're worried about? Then we'll have something concrete to look at instead of speculating about the various possibilities.

I opened the cr2 that i got to your haunted house and your cottage,no geos inside they both point to seperate obj-files.so no reason to care. But with the one i did, the geometrie is inside the cr2. you can delete the obj file and the cr2 is still loading. maybe its because i did not setup the hirachyfile in phibuilder but in the poser hirachywindow. I dont know how it happens, didnt even know it was possible

Sharen, I THINK what you're saying is essentially correct; however, there is no "object file" because the geometries are embedded in the CR2 itself. Going back to your original question. If someone made a mat file and included the cr2, with the embedded geometries, then that's a problem. They should only provide the mat.

I'm confused. Are you having problems with the Saloon MAT file?! To my knowledge that shouldn't cause any problem. It's just a pp2 file. If you're concerned, we can yank it. Geesh, I was just trying to give back, not to cause problems. Ron

You mean a pz2 file, not a pp2 file right, Ron? If you really mean pp2 then there probably is a problem. thgeisel, You need to use a phi file (not necessarily made with PHI builder but that's the best way) to keep the geometry separate to the cr2. There are ways to do it after character setup, so you don't have to start from scatch. Basically you use a text editor to cut out the geometry from the cr2 and replace it with references to the external file.

Well, I just downloaded Ron's file and there is definitely NO PROBLEM with it, so if that's the one you were worried about Sharen you can rest easy.

I wasn't worried about Ron's file, (please Ron you did a fine job, don't take it personally) I was just wondering because of this file that I received, it confused me because there is no object file with it....these are the first few lines of the cr2 file I recieved: version { number 4.01 } actor BODY:2 { } actor Bottom:2 { geomCustom { numbVerts 11256 numbTVerts 12369 numbTSets 62874 numbElems 20585 numbSets 62874 does this help, I just want to know how they were able to give a great poseable model to me, and there was no object file to go with it....(Ron really it wasn't you) Sharen

Also, thank you all so much for much needed information, I can't say this enough, this is the greatest place and you all are wonderful to me. Sharen

OK, see that bit that looks like this: geomCustom { numbVerts 11256 numbTVerts 12369 numbTSets 62874 numbElems 20585 numbSets 62874 The "geomCustom" means the geometry is actually contained in this file instead of an external one. The next bit after that will be a whole pile of numbers that represent the vertices of the geometry. It looks very much like what you see if you open an obj file in a text editor. Basically, in this case the obj file is actually contained inside the cr2. Its a bad way to do things because anyone that distributes this cr2 or a modification of it will also be distributing the geometry (or "mesh" if you prefer that term). It happens when you creat a figure without using a PHI file and when you customise the polygon groups after figure creation.

heyas; okay, look.... there's two types of cr2 (if we want to think of it this way). one points to an external obj, and one has embedded geometry. (you can actually do both in one cr2, but let's not go there.) for people making commercial products, they SHOULD make the first type of cr2. this will keep their copyrighted mesh as a separate, non-distributable file. then people can make alternate cr2's and pz3's etc with the figure, and not worry about infringing on the model copyright. if you bought a model with no obj file, that is a new figure (it doesn't point to the p4 nude woman or whatever, for example), then the creator has embedded the geometry in the cr2. (a foolish choice, in my opinion.) someone might unwittingly release a cr2 or pz3 file with the figure embedded in it. (or not so unwittingly. :/ ) the geometry becomes embedded in the cr2 in one of two ways: either the figure was assembled in the 'new' poser-4-grouping-tool-spawn-props-build-heirarchy method, in which case the entire figre was embedded in the cr2, or somebody, somewhere, somehow, used the grouping tool. when you get into the grouping tool, whatever part(s) you touch will be replaced with custom geometry, rather than pointing to the obj. (be careful with that thing!) ....hmmm... not sure how the pro pack handles geometry embedding. okay? so now you know how geometry gets embedded in a cr2. does that help? as for mat files, they start out as cr2 files, but they're supposed to be stripped of everything but the material info. if the file creator just changed the .cr2 to a .pz2, then yes, the embedded custom geometry would be in the mat pose file. you can tell, because the mat pose file would look, well, just like a cr2. a regular pz2 file doesn't have the top section of the cr2, it only has the second section, and in each part therein, only the channels. so yes, in theory, a mat pose file could contain the geometry, and someone could extract the geometry back into a working figure, depending on how un-edited the mat pz2 is.

bloodsong how did you get so wise, thank you for mt much needed lesson. Sharen:-)

Ajax, I confess I am dyslexic, and it is hard for me to remember all those file extensions. I usually refer to them as "Pose file, etc." You checked out my file for me, and deemed it was ok. I appreciate your help. Sharen, I'm glad my file as ok. I figured it was. But you know my heart is in the right place. I don't want to violate any copyrights. But most of all, I don't want to hurt a friend! Ron

This thread may be considered dead, but one comment made by thgeisl is exactly the situation I found. My .CR2 was created, and did contain the geometry, but after editing the colour and re-saving it the .OBJ was split out and saved as a separate file by Poser. After that the .CR2 failed to work. You should create a PHI file first and put the .OBJ file in the geometries folder before using the heirachy editor as Ajax states.

Routledge: thanks for the additional info.Sometimes the whole is really driving me crazy.never knowing what really happens and why :-((

I know what you mean, knowledge is the holy grail, thankfully we have this community to help us B) Im amazed by what Ive learnt about Poser, it seems incredible sometimes how much one year at Renderosity has done for me.