From all the locked threads over its clear the
OT forum is becoming the new C&D

what a shame :-(

Well, being an old Lewis Carroll fan I already wondered about the self-contradiction of an "off topic" forum... what exactly was supposed to be there? 1) Something "off topic" - that would be "on topic" within the forum by definition, so it needs to be moved out 2) Something "on topic" - that would be "off topic" and we are not allowed to post "off topic" anywhere, eh? Thankfully, this has been resolved by the new discovery that "OT" really stands for... - cOmplaint & debaTe !!! :-)

The way its being moderated? I thought I was being directed back to Ian and Willow's livingroom.

Who are Ian and Willow?

Actually, we can not look back in the archives but there has never had more locked forum than since the c&d was closed. it wasn't so much a jungle.. only at the end....

Ouch...

Michele is doing a great job.

Actually, the reason for all those locked threads is that some people haven't taken the time to actually READ the notice at the top of the forum regarding personal attacks. If I understand correctly, the OT forum isn't supposed to be C&D, it's supposed to be for general conversation and discussion. GO MICHELEH!! Kate (who LIKES the new forum)

I'll second that Kate. The fact that Micheleh is locking things down is making well the point that it's NOT the new C&D. Kevin (who likes it too)

Thanks Kate and Kevin, It's thoughts like yours that will make the difference. :)

yup... i agree.... hey, who took the potato chips??

i like the new forum either, and i would say GO MICHELEH!! too as i know it's certainly not an easy job.. (i just think she made a mistake on locking the thread when she talks about copyrighed images. I'm NOT criticising the idea itself, just the lock so no discussion is possible) I TOTALLY agree with kate about "the reason for all those locked threads is that some people haven't taken the time to actually READ the notice at the top of the forum regarding personal attacks" I mean, C&D was closed because of unrespected TOS as threads are locked because of Unrespected TOS. the fact that the TOS is not respected doesn't mean the forum is bad. it means people don't behave the way they should. And this can happen in any forum. What i try to say here (with my poorest english ;o) is that i don't agree with people criticizing the old C&D, what you can critisize is the behavior of some people who made it closed. If the same behavior happened in any other forum, i guess it would be closed too... (I hope someone understood me here.. ;o))

I understood you, Cecile. You explained it just fine.

It was perfectly understandable, and I agree with your point of view. I think that closing C & D was a big mistake which should be corrected as soon as possible. Trying to avoid the flame wars that happened is like trying to get rid of garbage by getting rid of wastebuckets. This is a community of 10.000s of people, and there is simply a public need for a C & D place. If there isn't one, the debates will simply use a different place - currently OT - or (even worse) spread around all forums, which is a complete mess. I understand that certain things that happened at the old C & D needed a reaction, but closing it doesn't. solve. a. single. problem. period. dot.

Martin, as I understand it, debates are allowed in OT. So are rants and ramblings and general venting BUT it's the attitude and personal behavior that is the key. Mud slinging isn't acceptable. Name calling isn't acceptable. Flame wars are not acceptable. If you want to gripe and rant about, oh, say, the plethora of blond vickies in the gallery, for instance, that's just fine as long as it's done without name calling, mud slinging or flaming. A lot of us miss the freedom we had to rant and rave and stomp our feet and throw our little hissy fits in the old C&D forum, myself included. Now if having that ability back means I have to behave in a civil and reasonably mature fashion, I'm willing to do that. Kate (who plans to throw a mini hissy fit regarding dentists and temporary crowns sometime later today once the novocaine wears off)

Speaking of locked threads. What is the point with those many locked threads in the Rhino Forum? Only yesterday I saw two new ones. ;P

MadYuri, Teyon locks the voting threads to stop the voting phase and lock the "Advanced users, please post your final challenge entry here..." and "Newer users, please post your final challenge entry here... " threads to stop anyone from posting images after the challenges has ended. This helps him control the challenges better. Because of the style of these challenges, this works best for him. But this brings up a good point. Not all threads are locked because of TOS issues, there could be other reasons, as shown here.

Hehe, gotcha. ;)

Kate, the problem is that I was originally really interested in a OT forum to occasionally post "this or that" - it was a good idea. C&D is completely boring - it is necessary but boring. The coolest thing with C&D (for me) was the fact that I was able to make it invisible and to ignore it. Now with OT replacing C&D, I will just hide it as well, and that's it...

"From all the locked threads over its clear the OT forum is becoming the new C&D" Well, let's take a look, shall we? 1. Copyrighted images-please read Locked by Micheleh. This was just an announcement, not a debate topic. I don't see a problem with this being locked. And please note that this ruling is not Micheleh's decision (although she makes it sound as if it is, which WAS a mistake). I've seen other posts deleted for this reason in other forums by other mods and admins, most notably a Tavern thread called "The Child Legume's Favorite Books", which was deleted many weeks ago by TammyMC herself, I believe. I think the whole thing has gone too far, but that's not the fault of Micheleh or the OT forum. 2. Is it me or did I read this post differently to everyone else? Locked by Micheleh. This one is rather puzzling, although it appears there are posts which have been deleted. As is, though, I see no reason why this should be locked. There isn't even one single violation in sight. I have a real problem with this one. 3. When Is Ronknights Not Ronknights? Locked by Spike. I started this thread, so I may be a bit biased, but I don't see why it was locked. Everyone had their say, we weren't calling each other obscene names or anything, this was a heated discussion, yes, but not quite a flame war. It wasn't necessary to lock this. However, I have to admit that I didn't raise any objections, and in my own personal opinion there was nothing left to say anyway, so I'm almost relieved to have it put to rest. However, putting those personal feelings aside, looking at it solely from the perspective of members' rights, it shouldn't have been locked yet. 4. I would like an apology Locked by Micheleh. Garbage. This thread should never haven't even existed. Yep, this is the only real C&D style nonsense on our list. Someone demanding an apology for some imagined insult, which leads to real insults flying from both sides. This is the kind of crap we don't need. Personally, I'd have deleted the whole thread altogether, although I usually frown on that sort of thing. But this crap isn't worth the space it takes up on the server. So, 4 threads out of a current 81 are locked: 1 is an announcement; 1 is a real mystery, I must say; only 2 are really arguments, and only one of those could truly be called a flame war and honestly deserved to be locked. I'm not sure where you're seeing locked threads all over, but it's not the OT forum. And despite being a bit over-cautious, which is understandable since she's a new mod, and of the most volatile forum, no less, I agree with Spike (did I say that?;) I think Micheleh is doing pretty well under the circumstances, and I believe that as she gets more expirienced, she'll grow into this job just fine.

The problem with the "Thunderdome" idea is that most of the people who really like to fight are the first ones to cry "TOS!" when they start losing...

Oh, and one last bit: I just noticed that there are 3 locked threads on this very page of this forum, so I'm even more confused as to why anyone thinks the OT forum is so bad...??????????

You seem to have a very selective selection process there, x2000, but then you did admit you were biased. Your ronknights thread should have been locked the minute your line "what a jerk" was used to describe that member. You are obviously in a peculiar state of denial over this. Your whole thread was a personal attack on someone. It doesn't matter whether it was 'justified', you know damn well that you're not supposed to be behaving like that in the open forums now. You were completely out of line, and the moderators of the forum should have stamped on you immediately, according to their own announced standards. Why they didn't is beyond me, and causing me some concern. Although I, personally, don't like the notion of 'nice' rules, warnings, deletions and locks; I do respect the site owners' right to implement them. But I don't respect the unfair and inconsistent implementation of rules and punishment. In fact, it makes my blood boil. The other thread with ronknights as the subject was correctly locked (if you're going to do such things at all) early on. It was about the same subject matter as your thread, and headed in the same direction. It may be frustrating, but you can no longer have focus groups about members' alleged personality failings. It's personal, and you know the purpose of the OT forum is to address the issues, not the personalities. If the issue is a personality, tough shit, it's out of bounds. Announcements shouldn't even need to be locked. They should be response proof from the beginning, and 'sticky' so that they stay at the top of the first page until such time as the moderators feel the message has gotten over. Maybe some coding cleverness needed there. As to the subject of the announcement, if one of the side effects is a lack of Barney pictures all over the place, surely it at least has an upside. Anyway, the site owners have made their views clear - they don't want any personal disputes being aired on their public forums. If PJF, one of the worst 'offenders' of the old C&D style can get it, then any member can. That means if you think a member is a complete twat worthy of exposure and ridicule, you can't do it. And you shouldn't do it, not directly or hidden in obscure 'code' to worm around the TOS. But the big message is to the mods and admin. Impose your rules fairly and evenly. If you can't be bothered with sensible implementation, why expect the membership to bother following them?

all people are doing at the TO forum is bitching about Micheleh, and the horrid job she's doing. "If you didn't bitch about anything, you wouldn't say a word all day." I figure people will eventually get bored of complaining for the sake of complaining. If membership doesn't want to follow the rules incidently, they can turn their asses around and go somewhere where they can do exactly what they want. I hear geocities gives free web space. Why doesn't someone set up the "Useless Bitching and Angst Forum"?

You're entitled to your opinion PJF, but you're wrong. You are right about one thing: I should not have called Ron a jerk, and I apologize. Had anyone protested, I would have apologized in that thread and willingly deleted that message and re-posted it without the offending comment. But no one did, including Ron. As far as the rest, I make no apology. Ron's behavior has posed a major problem on this site in recent weeks, and that problem cannot be resolved if no one discusses it. When the issue IS the personality, there's no way around it. And this issue WILL come up again, I assure you. It looms large in the minds of a great many members, and it will not just go away, especially when Ron insists on perpetuating his lie about Dendras. THAT is a personal attack every time Ron repeats it, whether he mentions Dendras by name or not. And every time he does it, it makes the admins of this site look quite impotent. But I quite agree with you that they should impose their rules fairly and evenly, and Ron is living proof that they do not. As are all of the attacks on Legume that still linger in the forums and fill his gallery. And I will continue to protest that inequity until it is corrected. "It doesn't matter whether it was 'justified'" That statement disturbs me greatly. It reminds me of some others, such as "Don't get involved", "It's not your problem", and "I was just following orders". When wrong is done, good people WILL speak, despite whatever rules may be written. And that is as it should be. I care about this site, and I have no intention of standing by quietly while innocent people like Dendras are falsely accused of crimes, or while even not-so-innocent folks like Legume are lynched. It damned well does matter if it was justified, my friend, and nothing that can ever be written in the TOS will change that. "If PJF, one of the worst 'offenders' of the old C&D style can get it, then any member can." Frankly PJF, I question your sincerity and I question your motives. I find your new cheerleader outfit to be ill-fitting, to say the least.

x2000, it was'nt an imagined insult, Literata and welcomesite both refered to me and Legume as "White Trash" and as anyone, I deserved an apology and respect and have a right to get one. Don't get me started on this one again.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12418&Form.ShowMessage=615254&Reply=615695#3

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12418&Form.ShowMessage=614803&Reply=615125#9

"Now, look at the place: Virtually taken over by the likes of H8 and Legume and their
loudmouthed, white-trash sycophants.

Maybe you're another that has no problem with bigoted/racist attacks.

Allright, I'm back! Had a great day! HUGE hugs for everyone in this thread for all their support and understanding- I think I can take the pot off my head, now. ;] C'mon, lighten up! Let's not start digging up I-got-mad-a-week-ago stuff. It's bad karma. I think I'll light some incense, fire up a few candles, and put on some music... create the ambience... now everybody take a deep breath and go "Ommmmmmmmmmmmm......." 8] 8] 8] 8] 8]

Hey, no problem!!! Just trying to help keep the facts straight. How about a looped version of "Ina-Gadda-Di-Vida".

lol Sure!

You know, the actual lyrics for that song were "In the Garden of Eden, Baby!"

But the members of Iron Butterfly were too drunk to be coherent. So you got "Ina-Gadda-Di-Vida" instead.

Urban legend or the truth?

Hey! You forgot our presents, Auntie Micheleh. ;] Not quite. C&D ran by jungle law... and so long as that was the operating guideline, IT WORKED. It ceased working when it began to attract large numbers of people who were incaplable of dealing with it on that basis without crying to the staff when someone bruised their nose with a verbal smack upside de haid. ;] In this one, they're trying to set up an environment that operates by rule of law rather than by rule of he who snarls loudest and most accurately & viciously. PJF gets it, accurately. And my belief is that consistency will come over time. Micheleh doesn't have the easiest task in the world to grow into, and definately not the easiest forum for "on the job" training. I think she'll grow into it fine. And if not, THEN we can lynch her. [JOKE!] grin Oooops. I forgot for a moment that I'm one of them [staff]instead of just another forum wolf. Please ignore the entire preceeding text. It never happened. ;]

Presents??? Lesse... I've got truffle chocolates.... chips.... and a case of Tequiza. Dig in!

"Now, look at the place: Virtually taken over by the likes of H8 and Legume and their loudmouthed, white-trash sycophants." Sorry, I don't see how that's aimed at you personally, unless you're admitting to being such, in which case you can't quite demand an apology, can you. If someone says "Hairball is white trash", that's another thing. And nothing in your "I would like an apology" thread really counts because you started on the offensive, so you became a fair target. "Maybe you're another that has no problem with bigoted/racist attacks." Hahaha! That's funny! Come on, Hairball, you've been around more than long enough to know better than that. I've been accused of many things in my lifetime, but NEVER that! "Don't get me started on this one again." Dear God, I hope not to. But I'm sorry, I just don't see anyone singling you personally out for attack, thus I find your demand for an apology pointless, and the moment you started flinging insults back at your enemies, you just made it worse.

H8 = HairBall ?

I think it was the sycophant part that made it offensive...

I'm wondering: if H8 is taking over the place, how come I've never heard of him before? And if Legume is taking over the place, he's doing a piss-poor job of it, judging by the legions of trolls he endures. Make no mistake, HairBall: just because I don't think they owe you an apology doesn't mean I'm taking their side... Actually, as an avowed Legume sycophant, I think they owe ME an apology! ;)

Actually, I've taken over the place. I'm just subtle, that's all.

Hey, wait a minute. Ironbear, are you implying that sycophancy is a bad thing? sigh Now you owe me an apology, too, damn it! And Twillis, subtlety will get you nowhere around here. ;)

That's just what I want you to think. Mwahahahahahaha!

Yup. Damn straight, x2. And add it to the stack I allready owe you. ;] "I'll gladly apologise Tuesday, for a hamburger today... '

lol@twillis

Now most of the "white trash" that elgeneralisimo knows don't have computers, but, the ones that do mainly use it to look at pics of nekkid chicks on the internet, which makes elgeneralisimo wonder, would they be more sympathetic with Legume(pink pony, fluffers, etc.) or would they be more inclinded to bemoan the "violation" of the Top 20 with non-nude Vicky pics...

DISCLAIMER FOR PEOPLE WITH NO SENSE OF HUMOR
Please note the elgeneralisimo is in no way impling that Legume detractors are white trash, only that the assertion of them supporting Legume seems a bit specious.

"but, the ones that do mainly use it to look at pics of nekkid chicks on the internet, " Damn. I'm white trash....

Look at the... oh, where was I...

Oh yeah, elgeneralisimo left out pirated DSS...

Oh pleah. I'm still trying to recover from the revelation that I'm white trash. ;]