I recently purchased a product in the marketplace and discovered that the .cr2 file required the .obj to be placed in a directory named for the author in my characters folder. Now, I flat out refuse to allow the merchants or anyone else to dictate how my library folders are set up. The .obj file SHOULD have been placed in the runtime/geometries/creatorname folder instead. I actually had to edit the .cr2 file by hand to accomplish this and it really bugged me to have to do that. Could you please, from now on, require the vendors to place referenced .obj files in the runtime/Geometries folder? Thank you. Kate

Kate - They should be in the geometries folder and no where else. Would you be so kind as to shoot me an E-Mail with the product name? Thanks, Clint

Yep, I have some items of one vendor with the same problem. But because I have to hack my files anyway it was no biggie for me. ( %&$"!? german Poser version )

When developing with the Pro Pack and using the setup room, then saving, it puts the geometries in the character folder. Ron

What Ron said is exactly right... my latest obj import placed the OBJ file in the same directory as my CR2 file. If this is the way CL is changing their file system, we may very well have to get used to it... imagine the headache of going back and re-editing every single item you have because you moved them all to the Geometries folder, and a new version of Poser doesn't support that! Question: if it doesn't find the file in the geometries folder, it doesn't ask you to locate it manually, same as textures? I only ask because I've never run into that situation.

Hehe Tilandra, thats what I do right now. ;P The german version of Poser dosn't recognize a 'character' folder. Here this folder is called 'Figuren'. And yes, I'm an expert at editing CR2 files. ;)

No, it doesn't ask you to locate it manually. If it did, that would make it a lot easier. As for having the darn thing in the character folder, well, maybe the people at CL need a good stern talking to. g Otherwise, we're gonna end up with a gazillion folders with just one file in 'em. Either that or we'll spend all our time editing .cr2 files. But, since it's just a simple matter of editing two lines in the .cr2 which can be done in a couple of seconds in Wordpad or any other text editor, we might want to remind the creators that it would make their customers lives much easier if they would do that for us before they package the product. Or, I could offer to hire myself out to do it for them... hmmm...let's see... at an hourly rate of $7200 that would be.. um.. carry the 6, add the three.. $2 a second? snicker KateTheGreedy

I understand the issue here, but at the same time I have a problem with it. I'm going to use my free chansaw as an example. The PP2 file goes in the Props folder. If you don't like where it ends up you can always move it to another folder in your props library without editing the PP2. The OBJ Geometry is a different story. I currently have it saving to the Geometries/KattMan/Props folder. Now I know this forces people to use this structure to use the file, but it doesn't affect the libraries themselves. To move the OBJ file you will have to edit the PP2 file. Now for the issue. If the OBJ file is named Chainsaw.obj and someone else makes a chainsaw with the same OBJ file name what will keep these two files separate? Placing mine in a geometry folder with my name helps prevent this to a point, and as I stated earlier it does not affect the library structure at all.

KattMan, obj in the geometries folder are perfectly ok. I don't want it any other way. I couldn't care less how the directories are named in there. :) The problem are those obj in a library folder. The library folder appear on the Poser GUI. If I would allow every single download its own directory, then I'm in trouble. Without my structure I would have to search for every single item.

KattMan, the way you do it is exactly right. The .obj goes in its own folder in the Geometries. Then I can put the .pp2 file in the props library under Power Tools or Garden Tools or something similar, depending on how I have the library organized. That's how it should be. And I just wanted to remind people that it should be that way. Now, if Pro Pack puts it all in the same folder, maybe when someone is creating a new .obj file they should work from a folder in the Geometries and then just move the .cr2 or .pp2 or .hr2 files. That way they would look for the .obj in the Geometries section instead of in the libraries.

You really can't do it that way, unless someone knows something I don't. Typical workflow (for me) for creating something in poser is: Open poser, create a new category, import a mesh file (command in the file menu), go to setup, setup bones and groups, go back to pose and try it out, if it works add to library.

In other words, there is no way to tell Poser to place the OBJ file in geometries... even if you placed your mesh there before importing it... Poser would simply save another OBJ file in the library folder you save the object to. The only way to set it up as you suggest is the painstaking editing of CR2 files, and I don't think everyone is comfortable doing that. I only started doing that last week, and I've been a Merchant for nearly two years. I'm not really comfortable with hacking files in general.

I think if you start insisting that merchants edit their CR2 files to place parts other than where Poser defaults them, you're going to scare away a lot of newbie merchants... and we were all newbies once. Just think, you might scare away a fledgling Mehndi, or Syyd, or other promising creator, and that would be a loss for all of us.

Tilandra

Tilandra, I understand your issue here and if you actually take a look at P4 standard you will notice something else. When you import a OBJ for either a prop or a character, the geometry is actually inside the PP2 or CR2 file. It has to be ripped out again to even use an externally referenced OBJ file. This requires you to edit the Poser file by hand. This is one of the reasons I have my next product coming out. It's going to make this hand editing process a non-existant issue.

Tilandra You are absoultely right. You can not tell the pro pack where to put the geoms. Ron

Just my two cents. If Pro Pack doesn't do it, the Developer should. If its a simple enough edit then the developer can do the moving/changing of the files. I agree that obj files should not be cluttering up my character and/or prop menu. Mine are very organised for a reason. I want them that way. When I move something and it doesn't work, I delete it, consider the developer incompetent and never buy anything from them again. Bottom line; if I'm selling something it has to work. Characters and Props get moved and obj files have to be where they are not going to get moved, and the files in the props have to point to the right folders. Don't blame Poser Pro cuz you can't finish the workflow. Part of the project has to be getting the obj files in the right folders (geometries). I don't blame Poser cuyz I have to do post-production in Photoshop, its part of the workflow. Likewise, a bit of post-production in developing is the seller's job, not the buyer.

This is where we disagree. Why should we create extra work for ourselves because you and some other individuals want to customize? There are many, many people out there who do not want to rearrange things because they don't feel they have the expertise, or are happy the way things are. If Creative Labs decided that they want the OBJ files in the same folder as the CR2, then they have a reason for it. The OBJ files are not "cluttering up your menus". Your folders perhaps, but not the menus. I'm really of a firm opinion about this issue. I don't believe CR2 files should be messed with. I spent 4 hours trying to get an object to still work correctly after I deleted one parameter dial (on purpose, it wasn't needed), and it sent all my other parameters into "wonkydom". If you want a Poser figure in a different Library than the one the creator made for it, then it should be on you to make it go where you want it. After all, it works correctly if you leave it alone. If R'osity does decide on a policy that requires all CR2 files created in the Pro Pack be edited, then you can believe prices will go up for the extra time and effort involved. Frankly, I think it would be more productive convincing Curious Labs they need to patch the PP so that it saves the OBJ in geometries. In fact, I think I'll email them now, asking why they've made this change and if it was intentional.

"When I move something and it doesn't work, I delete it, consider the developer incompetent and never buy anything from them again."

Wow. I feel for the poor first timer.

Well, this explains why I'm starting to see more geometries in the character folders. Though I don't mind editing a cr2 file, I'd like to see something in the readme that tells me I'll have to. I'm very meticulate about my folders. Regardless, thanks for the info!

So, Tilandra, we're just supposed to have to scroll through folder upon folder with names like "VendorA" and "VendorB" that contain just one .cr2 file and have no clue what the heck is in them, just because the vendors are either too lazy or too unknowledgeable to change "libraries:nameoflibrary:" to "geometries:" ? No thanks. I'll keep editing any .cr2 that needs it and refuse to buy from those vendors again. Heck, it's only two lines that need to be changed and it takes all of 5 seconds to do it.

Tilandra: Every item with a obj in the library folder, which works for the englisch version of Poser, won't work for the german or french version. If it works for the german version, it won't work for the other versions. The cause of this problem are the different names of the folders in the library. The german version dosn't have a 'character' folder. It dosn't recognize it, everything in it is completely ignored. I can edit the CR2, this is no big deal. But I usually don't buy from this vendor again. Other people don't know anything about CR2 editing. They have a defective item, for which they want support or a refund.

This is getting way out of hand. It seems like soe of yolu aren't even sure what is the problem here. Kate, if the CR2 file is saved under a vendorA in the Characters library it is just a matter of copying that character to a new folder. No editing is necessary normally. Extremly easy to get rid of the extra directories with no CR2 editing. The only time you will have to edit the CR2 is if the OBJ is in the same directory and the reference actually lists the full directory path. If both the CR2 and OBJ are in the same location then the CR2 can have just the file name listed. This allows moving the CR2 and OBJ file together with no editing at all. MadYuri, Pay attention to what I just said about the OBJ being found in the Character library. Now if the OBJ is found in the Geometries folder, then there is a differernt story. I would agree with you that the German version does not retain the american spelling of geometries to my understanding. This should not affect any installed item as the reference should point to geometries and the install should have placed the OBJ under a folder called geometries. The spelling would match so you shouold not have an issue even there. Ankh, If you have a problem with editing CR2 files then you could always ask the developer what the issue is. IF the product works if you follow the developers install then you should not have a complaint. This should be the case with all products bought from the MP as the testers should have seen a problem before releasing it to the store. If your problem occurs only when you try to customize the install, do not hold the developer at fault. Now how do we resolve something like this? I think renderosity has given us (the developers) a method to work around this problem. All products now uploaded to the store also requires the read-me to be uploaded. This will allow all potential buyers to view this file before purchase. Now it is up to the merchants to be sure they provide what the customers want. I think this could lead to more detailed readme files, and more work for the merchant. This work is all upfront and might end up making or breaking a sale. The customer might be using the completness of the readme file as a gauge to how complete the actual product is. Think about it for a minute. Are you going to trust an item now that only says "Unzip the files into your poser directory with folders on" as opposed to an item that not only says that but also lists the files and the locations expected? A full and complete readme can also give the user an idea of just how easy or difficult it might be to use this product.

MadYuri, Pay attention to what I just said about the OBJ... Nope, I have never ever a problem with obj's in my Geometries folder. I have every time a problem with a obj in a Library folder. The german version dosen't have a 'character' folder. Period. In this version this folder is called 'Figuren'. Any reference to a 'character' folder is not valid! > If both the CR2 and OBJ are in the same location then the CR2 can have just the file name listed. Example: figureResFile donkey8.obj (or :donkey8.obj) and the donkey8.obj is in the same folder as the CR2. This dosn't work. It gives me dozens of missing obj errors. I have a german version of the Poser Pro Pack. For myself I move the obj in a folder under Geometries and edit the CR2. But others dosn't know how to do it. If they are german and don't speak english very well they are out of luck. Sometimes one of those people comes to a german 3D forum which I visit and I can help him. This way I give support for an item from some unknown vendor (or freestuff contributor). I don't mind really, but all the hassle isn't necessary, if the vendor would place the obj in the geometries folder in the first place. There are vendors which go out of their way for their customers. Others don't. I have a list of both. shrug The only people I blame are MetaCreations/CuriousLabs which released a product with incompatible directory structures between different language versions.

ahhh ok, my apologies to you then Yuri and also Kate. Yes the blame for this would lie in MC's direction as they were the original developers of the program. Partial blame would lie in CL's lap due to them not fixing it in the propack and from what I hear, making it worse. I guess it still lies in the hands of the merchants making a well written, fully descriptive readme file. But of course that is only going to solve the issue with people who speak the same language. As a mercvhant, I find it an easy task for me to move my OBJ into geometries, and actually attempt to do so for all my products. In truth, I don't do this by hand anymore, I have a little utility that extracts the geometry and moves it to the appropriate location and writes the references out properly for all my products these days. My earlier ones weren't as clean in this respect, but I have learned a few lessons by listening to problems my customers have had. It's all been a learning process and recently I haven't had a single question come back to me. Part of this I think is due to the fact that I tend to split all different file types appropriatly and try to write a readme that explains both installation and usage of the product. My free stuff is a different story, but the formats there are actually getting closer to how my comercial items are packaged. It's just becoming easier for me due to my utility programs doing some of the tedious work for me.

Well now....

How long is it going to take for this utility to come out? (You said previously it was pending)

Heh heh, and how much is it going to cost me? :)

I wouldn't mind going to the effort of a universally acceptable CR2 file, as long as there is a fool-proof, simple and FAST way to do it. None of this headache-inducing jumble of gibberish in Notepad for me. Even the simplicity of the CR2Editor is not completely straight forward, as the keys CL has set up for some things are not straight-forward. (what the hell is Bone9_twistZ? I named all my bones, but it's still referring to this as Bone9. Arrgh!)

I like to model objects... I consider myself a digital sculptor. I am NOT a programmer, and I shouldn't have to be to create something for Poser. I paid what amounts to twice the price of Poser by buying the Pro Pack, and now not only is it not simplifying creation as I expected, I'm being told it's creating a product that will not work for everyone! Simply because they changed how it saves files.

Hurry up with the utility KattMan... and do you need a beta tester? {g}

Hmmmm. First, a disclaimer: I don't own Poser, know squat about it, and have no vested interest in this discussion. But perhaps that gives me a different perspective. I do know a little something about marketing, though. It seems to me that what y'all are talking about are marketing and development issues, which usually go hand in hand. Granted, Poser obviously seems to make these more difficult, but I think if merchants really want to sell their wares, then they have to figure out the best way to work around Poser's inherent problems (while also complaining to Poser - you're their customers, after all). If you're just a casual merchant, then you probably don't care about putting a lot of effort into the issues you're discussing here. But if selling is an important part of your income, then I think it would behoove you to study up on marketing, the largest element of which is satisfying your customers, not just dazzling them with hype, hoopla, and pretty pictures. It's probably pretty easy to sell to newbies. But once they gain experience with their apps and start becoming more discerning about what does and doesn't work for them, they'll move on to other merchants if what you're selling doesn't meet their needs. KattMan has the right idea: "I have learned a few lessons by listening to problems my customers have had." Re freebies: if you're not a merchant and just giving stuff away out of altruism, then it probably doesn't matter how things work. But if you're planning to become a merchant or already are and are using the freebies as a way to introduce your products and attract customers, then the same principles would apply to your free items as to your most expensive ones. Just my unasked-for opinions.

Sipapu, I'm going to make this short by just saying I agree with you. Tilandra, The utility I am talking about is my Poser Wizard. It has already gone thorugh full development and beta testing and is currently in the testers hands here at the marketplace. The release I believe is going to be delayed a short time but not due to a program error. I told the tester that even if he has a problem with following the help file to fail it and give me suggestions. This was an area that I felt might have been lacking due to my beta testers having some familiarity with the application already. The MP tester has stated that the help file may need more and I am awaiting his suggestions to implement them. I don't want to use this forum as a way to advertise this product so if you really want to know more just write me or check out my member page here and read the article.

That's all I needed to know KattMan, thanks :) As for the rest of it, I wish to apologize. I was a store manager for a large home-electronics store in Chicago, and some issues just seem to push my buttons. I've had customers standing in my store, screaming at me because I won't take their check that doesn't have their name on it and no photo ID. Some of these types of experiences spill over into other areas of my life, and I have knee-jerk reactions. This seems to be one of them. If I've come across as harsh, or nasty, that was not the intent. Adamant and stubborn, maybe :) I'll still be bugging Curious Labs about the file issue, and when KattMan's utility comes out I'll be one of the first to purchase it if it's as good as it sounds so far. Until then I guess I will be stock-piling my models. Tilandra

KattMan, having someone agree with me is a rare and welcome change - LOL!