Hi All, I have a chance to get a PC for what seems like a good price from a computer repair place that will configure a system to my needs. It seems like a good deal, but I use MACs mostly, so this is new to me and I wonder if you guys know what is best for working with both Poser and Bryce (because of render times, which are always a concern.) There are two systems available. One is a Pentium 4 (1.2 GHZ?) with a 40 GB hard drive, CD burner (not sure of the speed), 17" monitor, sound blaster card and external speakers, and ethernet built in, for $800. The other the same set up but with an AMD K6 (1.4 GHZ?) CPU and is $900. I am very confused by the PC CPU products. I know that Pentium is supposed to be better than Celeron (something about the cache), and that AMD is faster than Pentium but there may be compatibility problems with some programs (a lot that I have seen say "requires genunie Intel processor") I know that bus speed is important, and the guy told me the AMD has a 200MHZ bus on it. I have a G4 with a 133 MHZ bus, and I thought that was the fastest (in MACs, I believe it is). Does this sound correct for a PC bus? Any advice what I should ask about to be sure the computer will give me really good perfomance with Poser and Bryce? Do these seem like good deals? Both would run Windows 98 (I know how to use that) but could have Windows 2000 or even XP on it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

Well I would not take too much notice of Intel v AMD You get what you pay for. "requires genunie Intel processor" Dont take any notice of this.It is rubish There is also a fair bit of carrying on about Software on this forumn. I would stick with 98se as XP still crashes except with Bill the Dills software. Had XP pro on my machine and nothing much had changed except Bill the Dill was trying to be even more invasive into my privacy. Went back to 98se.

Hey Clyde, gm We have a few different machines around here and thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. I run a P4-1.4 and today I'm getting a new 2.0,, also there are a couple of Durons around here, we have a Mac G4-533 and all are different in what they do. I'm from the old school so personally I prefer the Intel and a lot of people will disagree and say that the P4's are mere power and speed. (I could never figure out why that is a drawback). The one thing I have found is that when I was running Win98 I had a lot of crash problems and therefore switched to W2K which cleared up that problem. I highly suggest going with W2K for a lot of reasons among which is a smoother running machine, better networking, far less fatal crashes. You say you know how to use 98, if so then you know how to use W2K as well. When people start answering your post you will get many different views, some telling you Intel, some telling you to go AMD, some telling you to stay away from both. My suggestion is to do a lot of homework, take your time as the prices you mentioned are going to be for a while. What ever you decide it will be old by the time you get it unpacked, that's the way things are. Good Luck BL

If possible I would be thinking more towards 2 GHZ if possible and DDR (Ram)

Given the 2 models you have to choose from, I'd go with the AMD. I've NEVER had any compatability problems.

why buy a p4 at only 1.2? the standard offering for p4 is @ 1.6 for less than what you have been quoted. generic computers, the name of local shop I go to, offering intel p4 1.6 256mb ddr 40Gb hd, dvd-cdr cdrw for 595 plus 127 for 17" svga monitor. look around, and don't worry, prices on pc's aren't going up any time soon, intel keeps dropping price on p4's to draw sales.

If you just want to run some PC programs, VirtualPC would be a cheaper solution, even if you add a nice big Firewire hard drive and more memory on your old system. I use the W98 version on my G3 400MHz with 768MB of memory for testing products and it runs both Poser 4 and ProPack. W98 actually runs better than it does on my PC laptop. The only Poser-related application that won't run on VirtualPC is Mimic - it installs off the CD, but then the anti-pirating system won't recognize the CD. If you want a Windows box, you might consider if Poser 5 (whenever it is released) will be optimized for a newer operating system than 98 - Elisa/gryffnn

Attached Link: http://www.maximumpc.com/

Maybe we need to define some terms here: 1.) The P4 is an Intel CPU 2.) The latest AMD CPU's are Athlon XP's, not K6 You didn't mention how much memory you get for the price. Which SoundBlaster card do you get?! What video card?! Is it an "on-board" video chip? Or a "real" graphics card?! There are many models of SoundBlaster cards and video cards. The prices, features and values range considerably. The same goes for the CD Writer. If a shop builds computers, you should literally be able to design your own computer. They just put in the parts you want. If you want to really know about "custom-built" computers, get the Maximum PC magazine, or visit their site. These folks love hot computers with power, and they will tell you exactly why they make certain recommendations. It's a good idea to check them out even if you don't plan to spend top-dollar for the hottest computer stuff. You'll surely get a good education! Heck, they even talk about Macs sometimes!  Ron

I'd go with the AMD, as you can see from below it will be roughly twice as fast as the Pentium in Poser (your results will vary in other apps). Both the systems you mentioned are already pretty obsolete, though, if they were using new componets I'd try for something better. Biggest disadvantage of the AMD CPUs is the noisy cooling fans they require, incidently, they run a lot hotter than the Pentiums, the newer ones are better then the 1.4 Thunderbirds, though. The results, as reported by various members of the Renderosity forum: CPU, Speed, Amount of RAM, Operating System, time AMD 2000XP 1G RAM Win 2K 024 seconds AMD 1800 Mhz 1GB Ram Win XP 035 seconds AMD 1800+ Athlon 512 Mb RAM Win XP Home 037 seconds AMD XP 1800+, 1GB DDR RAM, WinXP 044 seconds AMD 1.4 Ghz Athlon, 768 Mb RAM, Win 2000K - 044 seconds. AMD 1.4 Ghz Athlon 768 Mb RAM, Win 98 048 seconds AMD 1.3 GHz 256meg RAM Win 98 048 seconds Pentium 4 1.7Ghz 384RDRAM WinME 063 seconds Pentium 4 1.9 Ghz 1Gb RAM Win XP 057 seconds Pentium 4 1.7 GHz, 256 MB RAM, 067 seconds AMD XP 1800+ 1 GB DDR Windows 2000 Pro 068 seconds Pentium 3 1 Ghz 256Mb Ram, Win 98, 070 seconds. AMD 1700+ (Dual) 1Gb DDR Win XP Pro 073 seconds Pentium 3 850 Ghz 512 Mb RAM Win 98se 081 seconds Pentium 3 1GHz, 512 MB RAM, Windows XP Home 081 seconds. AMD 800 Mhz Athlon 768Mb Ram Win XP Pro 085 seconds Pentium 4 1.0 Ghz ? ? 090 seconds Pentium Celeron 600 Mhz 256 Mb RAM Win 2000 Pro 095 seconds Celeron 700mhz 128 MB RAM Win XP 105 seconds AMD 1.0 Ghz Athlon 768Mb RAM Win XP Pro 106 seconds AMD 1..0 Ghz Athelon 512 MB RAM Win98SE 107 seconds AMD 1Gb Athlon, 256Mb Ram, Win 98. 108 seconds Pentium 4 1.8 Ghz 512 Mb RAM 113 seconds AMD ? K6 146 Mb RAM 115 seconds Pentium 3 800MHz, 128MB RAM, Win98 134 seconds Pentium III 500Mhz, 384mb RAM, Win98SE 165 seconds Pentium 3- 525Mhz 256 Mb RAM, Win 98 178 seconds Mac G3-500 Mhz 768 Mb RAM ? 215 seconds Mac G3-400 Mhz 256 Mb RAM O.S. 9.0.4, 343 seconds Mac G4 500 Mhz 832 Mb RAM O,S. 9.2.2 476 seconds Mac 7500 / G4 300 Mhz 240M RAM ? 476 seconds iMac G3 233Mhz/ 160mb RAM OS9.2 615 seconds

Jim, In your cpu comparison chart, what are the times based on ??? Is there a benchmark scene that I can download somewhere???

clyde - the systems you mentioned are not worth the money they're asking. Shop around, definitely. Get lots of RAM (512MB is absolute minimum) Preferably 768MB or more. DDR is best at the price, 333MHz. Make sure the motherboard supports USB 2.0 and Ultra ATA 133. A fast CPU (1.4 is absolute minimum) AMD or Intel makes no diff. Preferably 1.8 or more. Harddisk 60GB minimum, preferably 80 or more. Graphics card GeForce3 absolute minimum, preferably GeForce4 - Mind you, graphics card type/speed has no significance for Poser, but as a general rule. Screen 17 inch mimimum, preferably 19 inch. Go for at least 1280x1024 res. Windows 98SE (NOT 98Gold) or Win2K (avoid XP for the time being. Avoid Win ME altogether.) If you run a maxed PC at 2.4 GHz, 1 GB RAM, 800MHz RDRAM and GeForce4, you'll blow any Mac out of the water, whatever Apple try to claim. But it isn't cheap! :] FishNose

WELL, Ask and you shall receive! Thanks so much to all of you for your quick response! Of course, I know you all love to talk tech (who doesn't!) because there's so much to to discuss (what would we do without computers?). I'm taking everything into consideration. The advice from everyone is greatly appreciated, and I will get much more detailed information about the video cards, memory, CD speeds and so on before I decide what to do. It is reassuring to know that PC pricing is currently stable so I don't need to rush this and can do some research before I make a decision. Thanks to you all for your generous sharing of thoughts and experience!

Yep...and the more memory the better. I currently have 512meg of ram, PC2100, and it isn't enough to run Poser adequately.... The hard drive is screaming most of the time with the high res graphics. I moved from Win98SE to XP because I could NEVER get Poser to render a high res character. Since I upgraded to Win XP Home, I have never had a problem with rendering..I've had 8 Vic2 and Mike 2 characters, fully decked out and was still able to get it rendered---the hard drive is doing a lot of the work...therefore i would get a minimum of 1024meg ram.... Poser is CPU and memory hog---faster the better. All the bs of how AMD cpu have problems and compatibility issues are hogwash. I've run both and now run an AMD XP1800+ with absolutely NO PROBLEMS. There were some issues with the early AMD chips, but that was several years ago. Its an ongoing myth to fuel the Intel/AMD debate. Be very careful when selecting components. The post that talked about all the different versions of hardware...video cards, hard drives, memory, sound, etc is right on....plus the performance can vary by manufacturer as well....do plenty of homework. I've contacted numerous repair/home brew stores around here, and a lot of these guys try to sell uninformed buyers whatever they happen to have on their shelves just to get rid of it...much of this stuff is out of date, and they sell it and talk about it like its the greatest and fastest...be careful. Check out the following: http://www.anandtech.com/ http://www.tomshardware.com/ and of course the previously mentioned Maximum PC. Check the prices of components here: http://www.newegg.com These will probably be lower than your store, but it will give you an idea of what you should be paying.... Also...www.pricewatch.com Checking these prices will save you from getting ripped off. Oh...AMD processors are considerably cheaper than Intel...usually by $100 or more dollars, depending on speed, etc.... the K6 is old news...you should be able to get the XP for pretty much same price...faster then Intel P4

You should also ask about the mother board and type of RAM (also ask about costs for upgrading each machines RAM, since different setups require different RAM for Intel....some of which can be much more expensive than others.) I will always choose AMD over Intel, if there is no other reason to do otherwise. AMD generally can do more work per cycle, except in rare cases, and is generally less expensive. That said, however, if those were my only two choices, and the Intel system used a better motherboard, I would go with the Intel. Cheap motherboards can be a source for heartache, and could adversly affect performance much more than you would expect. As for the K6 business, as far as I know, K6 stopped at around 450Mhz, so I doubt that the AMD is actually a K6. If your sales people are calling it that, they either don't know what they sell, or something fishy is going on (either way, you probably should stay away from it). Good luck! Eric

Ask them if then can build something along these lines http://www.falcon-nw.com/

I'd go for Win 2000 too, I moved to it from 98 and so far had only two crashes (blues screens) since it was released..(is it 2 years now) i've found it to be much much more stable than 98 and better suited to 3d work....As for ME i get mad thinking about it LOL my lap top has it on and its crash city so thats getting win2k on it too when i get a chance ;o)....Steve

Hi Dave-so! I think the bench mark test is still in Freestuff (It is mine), it uses regular Poser 4 stuff. I also agree, incidently, Win 2000 is pretty solid.

I've had a P4 2.0Ghz with 1Gb DDR Ram 80Gb hard drive running XP for 2 months and Poser just purrs along nicely no matter what I throw at it, in the time I've had XP I've only had 1 serious system crash and that was my fault, the rest of the time it's been fine even with all the tinkering I do ;) Rob

Thanks everyone, not even my Post but, You all have given me ideas for next year when my extended warrenty runs out of this Gateway. I upped my Memory to 512MG from the 120 it came with. When I bought this I told the sales person, what I wanted a computer for-3-D art Programs, and I wanted to be able to up-date as needed. Well windows982nd addition only uses 512MG of memory, and the Performance computer won't take XP unless I buy a new motherbroad-on & ON. I've learned the hard way, don't trust the sales man. Above someone said 512 isn't enough memory for Poser. 100% right, it's not. I can use that up with one Vicky-Fairy, let alone put two in. :O) You all are the greatess!

Guess I'm late, but what's new!? I'm not a genius when it comes to PCs. But I work in the IT section for my region and handle just about every kind of work you would expect. Installation, repair, upgrade, LAN, cabling, configuration and testing. And as I do, I suspect everyone here even has a bit of bias in their opinions. I'm saying that upfront. My bias is toward Dells...never the fastest but always dependable. Having said that, I'll comment on the above. (1) Tho I am an Intel guy, everyone is right in the AMD vs Intel compare. The remark about requiring the genuine Intel processor is place there due to pressure from Intel. Who also threatens re-sellars to only sell Intel. I even own Intel stock, but they ride rough over their customers. (2) AMD machines generally outperform Intel machines tho the Intel processor is rated several hundred Mhz higher. As to the benchmark posted, AMD usually squashes Intel in the Terragen BM, too. (3) Someone said don't buy the machines you are looking at. I would agree, but none of us know your monetary situation. Before you plop $800 for the 1.2 you list, I just priced a 1.9 @ Dell with just about what you listed above for $1,058. Remember, it's new and that includes 1yr warranty. So think about that extra $250. It has only 256MB RAM...which brings me to next remark... (4) Memory, memory, MEMORY! My current systems has 256MB or RAM and by the time I load V2, hi-res eyes, texture, and hmann's hair, my poor hard drive cries as it makes room for memory swapping. I have downloaded an incredible freebie (Antares class ship) and I won't even load it and its textures and any figures because I know it would be too much (ohh, the agony!). So, as someone said...512 RAM minimum! (5) OS? I have used them all except XP (I feel like the other poster above...too much privacy invasion). I have seen Win 95, Win 98, and Win2K on our 200 PCs in my time. Win2K is most stable of all. Not sure how it does with Poser (I've thought about sneaking a copy from work, but I don't believe in "stealing" software...so I still use Win98 here). (6) I have been pricing one of the new hi-end Dells lately (current config costing about $2100). The processor is 2.4 GB, the bus speed is 533 Mhz, and 1 GB of 800 Mhz RDRAM. I plan to move my other 40GB HD to it for dual 40 spindles. I think it can equal or outdo and "stock" AMD machine right now, but AMD will best it soon (if it can't already). (7) One other bit of advice not mentioned above. A point I may be a bit biased on, so I admit it freely. A point me and my LAN manager debate routinely. DON'T load a bunch of crap in the system tray! DON'T test Microslop's ability to be as stable as a Mac. Don't load a bunch of accessories down there...when you start getting lockups, it's hell trying to figure out where the problem is coming from. Load what you need. I've seen people whose system tray runs from the right of the screen over halfway across to the left. UGH! Oh well, that's enough. Hehe. Good luck.

My opinion don't be afraid of XP, I got the home version when it first came out and it has been rock solid! never once a blue screen of death, I wish I could have said that about 98se. as for privacy issues even if microsoft could decode the system ID (which they say they can't) who cares? does it realy matter weather microsoft knows what video card you have? or how much RAM? the system ID is only to keep people from pirating their software. as for hardware for Brice and Poser, three words RAM,RAM,RAM. I run a 900 T-Bird with 1 gig of SD ram at home and have smoked render times of newer machines at work with less DDR ram

Windows XP has worked wonderfully for me ever since I installed it. XP has worked better than any other version of Windows, including Windows 2000 Professional. I was somewhat concerned about the Activation/Protection scheme, but it has turned out to be a non-issue for me. I recently reinstalled Windows XP on my computer, totally wiping the hard drives. I reinstalled maybe a dozen times, and never had to deal with the Activation. I never needed to call Microsoft, etc. My only gripe is that I can't install Windows XP on my wife's computer and mine. Hey, I don't consider that piracy. I just consider it simple economics. I have a job, and barely manage to have a few bucks spending money. It's damned near impossible to cough up the price of two copies of Windows XP. Microsoft has dealt a blow to its honest customers only. Pirates continue to crack anything that comes their way. Ron

I've never actually used XP so I can't say much, but I have seen a couple tests were 2000 was a tiny bit faster, less overhead perhaps. But I'd guess they would be equally solid. In the benchmarks above, mine is the 1.4 AMD, so I can say on identical machines 2000 is about 10% faster than 98, anyway. Right now my 200 partition is sick, so I'm running Max (and Poser) in 98, it does crash more, Max is much, much slower, too, a lot more than 10%, more like 50%. However, all the old non-NT utilities (Like John Stalling's CR2 Editor) crash a heck of a lot less in 98 then 2000, there is no free ride! XP and 2000 are more-or less NT6 and NT5 (some of the 2000 files even call it that), they don't have DOS underneith like 95/98/ME.