I was perusing the galleries whilst waiting for Bryce to finish, and I saw someone comment on the fact that (s)he was really proud of not having done any postwork with a Poser image. And it kinda made me wonder about my own stuff, cause I very rarely use only one application when I am doing 3Dstuff, to me, it would be like only using chalk when there's a whole world of media to be discovered out there. So where would one post an image that was made with Bryce, Poser, and probably had a ton of stuff messed around with in Photoshop or PhotoPaint ? Would that depend on the focus of the image ? the content ? the amount of postwork done ? Why is there such pride in no postwork at all ? A lot of images look the worse for it, IMO. ~S

I'd say post it wherever you, personally, feel it should go. Myself, a lot of postwork and multiple 3D programs goes in Mixed Media, Poser with mild postwork goes into Poser, Poser with lots of postwork depends on what kind of mood I'm in. Don't worry, the gallery gestapo are usually too busy mistaking faeries for child porn to notice you. ::ducks bloody retribution:: For me, personally, it's kind of cool when I can get things together and looking good enough in Poser (or the renderer of choice) that I don't feel it needs postwork (except for a slight Gaussian blur I always use to take the edge off). On the other hand, it feels great when I can take an OK render image and make it look really good with post processing. What it gets down to most, in my book, is what you take joy in. If you hate post processing and want to be done once the render finishes, go for it. If you enjoy combining media to get the effect you want, great. Art without spirit is not.

If you want to get very technical... about -all- images posted to the Poser Gallery wouldn't qualify then! Every time hair gets painted in or even pasted from Cosmo, every time you paint clothes... It would be hard to draw the line here. And another, if all the old Masters had the tools we have now, I can't imagine they wouldn't use them, or only one.

I look at it this way, there are poses and props and clotthes that if one lights correct and poses just so , very little post needs done. most times those that thumb thier chest that there was no postwork, often desperatly need some to make the image look more beliveable. i look at post in the same way Little_Dragon thought "If hollywood does it, why can't I" and that seems oh so true. with all the items that are available many good quailty, the real artisit touch seems to come from how much care and effort the artist took to complete the the illusion of the image. those that do are well recived by thier peers and produse stunning work. those that toss in a few figures, whip in a canned pose or two , add a light set, hit render and post with no effort. it looks it. I'd say do some, or just a little. the applications available can only do so much. apply the effort, and make the image alive, think out the issusion and create it. and it will look better.

"Don't worry, the gallery gestapo are usually too busy mistaking faeries for child porn to notice you. ::ducks bloody retribution" You hereby win my quote of the month contest. Mot that I have one, but it's one of the better ones I have heard in a while ;-) So where/when did this "purist" movement start ? ~S

I personally can't get into doing post work because it is more difficult to do in animations, so I have to try to make it look best without. But I see no reason why someone should or shouldn't use it, to me it's up to the person doing the project. Let's face it, our own worst critic is ourself. If I am satified with it I am happy, and even happier if someone else likes it. Marque

The purist movement started when one caveman turned to his son drawing with a burnt stick and said-- that's not art, you didn't put the ocher into your mouth, chew it up and spit it on the wall! And whoever spit the ocher on the wall and outlined it with a burnt stick was doing postwork and was shunned forever more. When I'm talking to friends who know nothing about the medium and mention no post-work, their eyes glaze over. Nobody cares but us. Not even in Fractals-- well, most people still think Fractals are for Grateful Dead t-shirts, but never mind, the post-work controversy is everywhere. The only reason I care about mentioning postwork in the galleries, is, if that's a new outfit or hair object, I want to buy it! If you painted it, sigh, gone from my reach. Either the picture is a unity and works or it doesn't-- post-work is irrelevant. And I would prefer that people using Poser post in the Poser gallery, no matter how much Post work is involved. Because otherwise I might not get a chance to see their work. Emily

Post work can't be done very well with scenes made for animation. You may have hundreds or thousands of pic's to work. But, stills- hell yes post work. Postwork- or prework, whats the differance. If textures are made in PS or PSP. Thats not Poser. What is the differance weather it's added before or after you hit the button to render- Use the strengths of whatever programs you like, I say. Nothings perfect- neither poser, bryce or any other software.

I just can't help it but whenever I see a render of for example a woman with big boobs (heh, how did that come to my mind?) and notice that the boobs have jagged edges cos the creator didn't do any post work on it... I really have to wonder why anyone would feel proud to say there was no post work to the image. Why be proud if the result doesn't look good? Now, if you can produce amazing images with no post work at all - then it's a whole different thing... For me, doing the post work is the most enjoyable thing in creating an image :)

I have to agree with Eowyn, the Postwork is the most enjoyable part for me. Prolly because I am an illustration major who became interested in webdesign, who became interested in photomanipulation/texturing a year or so ago, who became interested in Poser a month ago. Whew. So for me, I'm doing the texturing the way I know best how to. Kinda random, I wonder if the ratio of heavy Postworkers to non-heavy has anything to do with how one started out? I wonder if Poser was one's first, if then one tries to get as close as possible to a finished piece in it...and if, say, Photoshop was one's first, one tends to use Poser to "set up" a piece for rendering in that program.

Gosh, now I feel like a potential dummy. I usually only use postwork if a bodypart is sticking out of the clothes even after it's been rendered invisible. I might resize a picture, or put a frame around it. I surely don't feel guilty about tha amount of postwork. I thought jaggies are caused because someone didn't choose anti-alias on a render? If Poser's output is that bad, then maybe Poser needs to be improved? I've been using my current methods for several months and I haven't received a flood of comments telling me that I need to stepup the postwork. Maybe I've been blissfully ignorant all this time? It's been known to happen. Ron

To me it depends on your goal - personally I don't like postwork because I think in terms of "can I animate that?" try posting 3-400 frames . . . not to mention it already takes a fly's lifetime to render. Also it is the pride of accomplishment (but that can go both ways I guess. sometimes it's neat to see what you can get by with in postwork but there's no ZEN to it.)

I think people mention that they've done no postwork because they feel the image came out well without it and are impressed that it came out of Poser without having to tinker. It's somewhat related to what happens in the Marketplace, when someone creates a texture and uses a picture with no postwork to show that the texture looks good even without altering it in a paint program. Mike

I thought jaggies are caused because someone didn't choose anti-alias on a render? If Poser's output is that bad, then maybe Poser needs to be improved? Yup....sometimes that bad. Most of my images are "post-worked" by rendering in Bryce. And, it often takes a very long time to set up lighting, materials, etc., there. I just don't like the way Poser renders. Still, I feel if I am gonna basically paint over the whole thing...well, why not just paint the darned thing in the first place. I like e-painting....but, I HATE doing postwork. Maybe, that is because I had Poser 1 for eons, and, basically, it just layed out a figure shape for me to paint over...hair, clothing, changes in figure shape, etc. I sort of feel like doing alot of post work with poser 4 defeats the all the innovations made since poser 1. Still, it doesn't render well, for me.

Poppi, I know you're good at your work! In my limited estimation, you're really creating a "picture" in two different programs: Poser and Bryce. I never figured how to import a single character into Bryce, and frankly refuse to go to all that effort. Poser should be able to handle everything for me, or I should be able to easily import an entire scene into another proram suche as Vue dEsprit. (I don't have that choice.) I do save my work in "psd" PhotoShop format, then I fiddle a tiny bit in PhotoShop (frame, etc.), and save for the web. I've heard that Poser's jpg output stinks. Maybe that makes some difference here? Or maybe my work is worse than I thought? Ron

Why thank you, Ron. I think you may have explained why my poser renders look so bad...I had been saving them as a .jpg. I still prefer to render in bryce, though. I had bryce for ages before i got poser 4. i used to put my poser 1 guys into it, or, make them elaborate backgrounds. to be honest...i had so much fun with that poser 1 for so long. importing into bryce isn't so bad....once you learn how to use leo. mostly, i put a copy of all my poser materials for a given render into their own folder. then, i open bryce...import them all at once and save. that makes texturing and transmapping poserfolk a whole lot easier.

Well, for ONE thing, all the people who are "Poser Purists" will surely be prohibited from using/doing any radical/extreme poses. Poser can't handle someone even so much as having thier legs folded up under them sitting on the floor. Knees and elbows: big problem. So, for ONE thing, postwork is needed for Poser's shortcomings. As to where to post? Suggestion/idea: If you spent 6 hours in Poser (arranging, etc.) and 4 hours in post, then it is more than 50% Poser. Personally, this is where I spend most of my time in R'City and the Poser gallery is where I'll post my work regardless of what tools I used on it so long as the basis came from Poser. (not that people are clamoring for my work, mind you, just my intentions whenever I get the boss off my back so I can quit generating Flash animations for him at home and get some time back to myself) As a closing comment...kinda makes me feel like a bi-racial child. Just as people huff their noses in the air at Poser Postwork, the 2D people thumb their noses if the root of the art came from Poser (cheating, they say).

but what if all you have is poser?

Well, echo, I guess it means no one will accuse you of bastardizing Poser...hehe. People should use what they have and what they are good at to make the best art they can. Period.

I think there are two different skill sets involved. Some people possess both. Others, like me, have trouble painting a pixel in a bitmap editor after years of playing with them. I can't see "bragging" about no postwork unless it looks particularly good, but that's the opinion of the creator. Seeing good "pure Poser" images does impress me with what can be done without necessarily being a PhotoShop wizard. It'll be interesting to see if the per-centage of postworking goes down with Poser 5's (hopefully) much superior capabilities. Of course, there are two categories of postwork, fixing flaws and adding enhancements. The latter is where the true artistry comes in.