I've read a few messages in one thread, and then over at another Poser site that have me greatly concerned that I may have violated copyrights or DAZ policies concerning the use of The Tailor and clothes, and maybe even some characters I've created. I'd done some research and thought I was fine. Now the concerns have caused me to withdraw several of my new Free Stuff submissions. I'm concerned that such an issue apparently is not discussed publicly to the point where it can be easily viewed by all. We need to know the exact stance on this issue, ASAP. This should be available to everyone to avoid further mistakes. Thanks.

Maybe if you tell us what those issues are ot would let us know. I haven't heard a thing about it myself.

Apparantly, DAZ has decided that none of Mike2 or Vicky2's morphs, transferred via Tailor, can be on any distributed file. Which means Marketplace products with morphs to fit Vicky2 and Mike2 have to be pulled. Same with freestuff. NOTHING can fit Mike2 or Vicky2. If you don't own The Tailor, or the appropriate Morphing Clothing Pack, you're SOL. Suck it up, dude. No chance. I ask again: Will existing products have to be pulled? Is there a list of what morphs ARE allowed (i.e., are present on Mike1 and Vicky 1), or are NONE of them allowed? How soon will we know what this situation means?

That seems a bit harsh really, and unenforcable. Let's say I make a new clothing item, now my clothing item has morphs to fit the Vicky 2 morphs. How do they know I didn't model them by hand, and if I did, they can't claim any copyright on them at all. I'd like to see thier position stand up in court, I really doubt it would. I think it is time to contact code twister about this, it might not have been his doing but rather a restriction that Daz put on it. If that is the case, then I bought it under prior restrictions and thiers don't stand anyway.

This is still unclear. It does not answer my first two questions. Will existing products have to be pulled? Is there a list of what morphs ARE allowed?

Just read it and all I see is double speak from them. From what I gather, if you sell at DAZ you can sell your item but if you sell someplace else or give the item away you are breaking the law. If I create a shirt and add all the morphs nevessary for Vicky2 to wear it by hand, they will come after me for copyright infringment. You know what I say? Screw them, let them come after me. I'll be saving every piece of my work so I can show that it was made by me. Then I will ask if the shape of the human body is copyrighted by them. Only then could I not create morphs that mimic this shape. It just seems like they are trying to corner the market on this. I think maybe Steve Cooper should hear about this also. If it keeps going no one can create clothing that fits any character because all you really would have to do is place posetts head in there and the clothing for Vicky and you will have a vicky lookalike without owning vicky. You will get the posability also because of the joints in the clothing. You would just have to pose the clothing instead of the figure and not use parenting. This gives the same effect that they are trying to stop. I think DAZ just lost my support.

Codetwister hasn't changed his stance on it. The restriction is on the use of Mike 2, Vicki 2 and the other non-distributable morph DAZ products, not on the Tailor. So it doesn't matter what the Tailor license says.

Okay, next question: What about clothing that doesn't morph, but is custom designed to fit a specific character CREATED with Mike2? Case in point is my Peytrov character. His armor includes a custom-build bodysuit (100% new geometry, NOT the Mike Bodysuit) that is designed to fit the base build of the Peytrov character. It does not morph, and doesn't quite fit the unmorphed Mike properly. Since the base body shape this armor is designed to work with is a result of Mike2 morphs, does this mean that the armor and bodysuit for this character should be completely scrapped?

Ajax, Try making a pair of pants that just come close to the shape of vicky and allow a morph in it that fits vicky2 as a muscular character. Do this all by hand and tell me if it breaks the copyright. With the way it is written the answer is yes. I just read the FAQ on it over there. The mesh doesn't have to match and the final morph doesn't even have to match. Keep in mind they also state randomizing as an illegal operation. This would result in a slightly different shape, yet still be illegal. Keep in mind that this would be a civil case and you would never be able to afford to defend your stance. All they have to do is accuse you of it and you are out of business. With this stance they will have lost my support completly. I'm waiting to hear thier reply to my post and if it is more confusing double speak or they say this would be illegal then I will no longer buy from them nor will I even recognize thier existance.

Valander, the answer is yes. Go read thier FAQ on second stage derivatives.

Okay, where exactly is a URL to their FAQ on second-stage derivatives?

Go to thier store and click the button at the top that says FAQ. It is the third question down.

Believe me, I'm not impressed by it either, especially coming after such a long time lapse. I shudder to think how many people have put huge amounts of effort into tailorizing their products to make them M2 and V2 compatible and will probably now have to withdraw them from the market. I just wanted to point out that Codetwister hasn't been a party to this.

I understand that Ajax. I really feel for Code Twister and think that possibly he is going to get burned for this. Think about it. Napster itself never transferred music, they only gave the mechanism to do so. Now code twister gives us the mechanism to generate morphs for clothing and these morphs will break thier copyright as stated. I feel they tied his hands and locked him into a permanent deal with them. They won't have a problem as long as THEY are making money off his app, but think about it. If this pisses him off to the point that he pulls it from thier store and decides to sell elsewhere what is to stop them from going after him the way the music industry went after napster.

So from now on, any clothing done for Mike or Vicky has to fit the base Mike and Vicky (or Stephanie), and NOTHING else? With all due respect, this seems to me to be utter crap. Nothing but cookie cutter characters after this, it seems geared to do NOTHING but sell The Tailor. Mac people be d***ed, I guess. In fact, on closer inspection, it now seems that it is completely and utterly illegal according to their liscense agreement to make clothing that actually fits the DAZ models!!!!! Period, completely ignoring the whole current controversy about morphs. Quote: "Derivative works" also refers to most of the methods that may be used to create a "new" mesh around an existing model. This describes perfectly the mothod used to make any form of clothing that even remotely follows the body shape of the target figure (i.e., fits), whether it's box modelling or polygon modelling. Alright, tell me where I'm wrong?

Val & I put alot of work into Peytrov & several of our other characters/ clothings. I dont think its fair that we should have to remove our products because DAZ sat on their hands for 4 months. I think that this complaint about the morphs should of been addressed: 1) when mike 2 came out. I know for a fact Valan only has Mike 2 & Vicki 2 to work with because I purchased them for him. 2) when codetwister released the tailor program. I dont appreciate a company where I spend my hard earned money at quite often telling me Im warezing their product because we used a product they sell to enhance a product that we sell. People want clothing ect ect that fits the models they use. Since DAZ has taken their position Im taking mine. Im sorry to say I wont be purchasing another product from DAZ.

Take this one step further. How different is this from creating a CR2 for a clothing item that matches the CR2 for Vicky so that it conforms? Using this I could actually create a shirt without morphs that has the same groupings and JPs as vicky and you could chop off Posettes head and put it inside the shirt. You end up with a vicky like character without owning vicky. You just have to pose the shirt on it's own and not conform as it is a character itself. Just parent the posette neck to the shirt neck and you have it. Go a little further, I want to create my own vicky catsuit, slightly different from the current one with piping and such in various places. I fully model this from scratch so it isn't a copy of thiers. Now use this and add the Posette head the same way and you have a full vicky body. You don't need any of the morphs, just the CR2 to get vicky quality. Thier stance is that you can circumvent buying vicky2 because you can use the morphs on the clothing instead to get the same effect and not worry about morphing the underlying body. I know I might be pushing it a little, but I think it leads to something to think of.

I'd like to hear DAZ's response to this as well. Next thing they will tell us is that you are not allowed to distribute or sell custom morphs for Vicki, Mike, or Stephanie, because they are derived from the basic mesh. Then they will have completely cornered the market. What they are doing sounds anti-competitive to me.

Just my 1/2 a cent :)

Hopefully this is the case: They found that they are starting to lose sales to actual warez. They decided to take this stance due to bad info and now they are hurting their supporters and customer base instead of the guilty parties. I really want to see what happens here, if they come clean I will respect that, but with the current double speak I see so far I doubt it highly.

Hey, guys, a bit of patience!!! Sheesh! It is Friday night, almost midnight where DAZ is, and you expect these folks to jump out of bed, pad on their little naked feet across a cold floor to the computer, solely to answer your demands RIGHT THIS MINUTE, or you'll take your models, er marbles, and go home? Nobody is going to be reasonable under that kind of pressure. The folks at DAZ have demonstrated time and time again their generosity and their willingness to work with the community to benefit everybody... and you can't wait a few hours for them to come to some arrangement? At least let them get a night's sleep and a cup of coffee before you start throwing insults and complaints... or maybe it is easier to hit a sleeping target? What a pack of spoiled children! If you don't get an instant decision or capitulation (20 messages in 2 hours) you'll whine, bitch, and moan all weekend instead of doing something productive like discussing alternative methods of building and fitting clothes so that nobody's copyrights are burned. Provoke and scream like a victim is such an old game. Carolly

IMO DAZ has gone too far. I think their definition of "derivitive" has expanded like Vicky 2's breasts. The last time I checked, you could not copyright a "concept" or an "idea". But that is what a general "shape" is in the 3D modeling world. It is the mesh that provides the copyrightable substance, not the shape. I can understand that literal CODE can be copyrighted too, but conforming morphs don't violate copyright because they are not literal copies of original code, but must be "translated" to reflect the differences between the morphed object and the target. DAZ is suggesting that anything which conforms to the SHAPE of a morphed Vicky2 or Michael2 is an infringement. I say Bah! Maybe it is time for this community to get together and develop our own copyright free meshes jointly and avoid this hassle alltogether. We certainly have the talent around to do it.

Perhaps giving away that low-res Vicki was not the wisest idea after all-- though it did mean a lot more Vicki clothes from the masters in Japan. Can you do this with the low res Vicki? Can you switch morphs from the bod over to the Low res vick-- make it tits, that's what most thieves want to copy anyway. Yeah, I'm not in a good mood. I don't like being put in the position of being a pirate. But I'm not giving up items I paid for either. Ex post facto laws dont cut any ice for me. They are anathema. Take the low res Vicki away! Take away Vicki 1. I think Daz, who has always had a cool head and an understanding relationship with it's customers, has been getting some very bad advice for quite awhile now. But I don't intend to pay for it. The rule is ridiculous since they themselves are breaking it. The morphs are no damn good unless clothing fits them. If by fitting the clothing, using Daz's own products, you can steal the morphs, then they shot themselves in the foot. Because I don't see any requirements for having Mike 2 before buying his morphable clothes. I also don't see how MAC users can fit their morphed figures into anything-- since they can't buy and use Tailor. The morphs are turning out to be not valuable at all but huge damn albatross around everybody's neck! This is not an good economic climate in which to cut consumer's throats. Emily

Since the Tailor does not tranfer morphs, but approximates them, Daz has no say in how they can be used.

No, hauksdottir, that's not the point anymore. Right now, it's not a matter of "Answer us now!", it's a matter of just how much impact this decision of theirs will have. Originally, I had hoped that since Dan had posted only a very breif time before I started responding to this thread that we would get word back, but I am willing to wait until Monday, if need be, to get the decisions from them. This is a very important subject, as it impacts not only future products, but past ones, as well. Large numbers of products would have to be removed from online stores all over the place, and aspersions cast on people who purchased them. Also, please do not accuse me of being a "spoiled brat". A problem cannot have a solution proposed for it until all the ramifications of that problem have been determined. As for the "finding alternate solutions to fit clothes", according to the DAZ statement about the morphs, there is only one option - buy their morphing clothing pack, or buy The Tailor. As for modelling clothes in the first place, the line from their own FAQ implies that making any clothing that fits the base figures, themselves, is against their EULA. It goes on to say that no method of doing such, even ones they do not yet know about, would be acceptable. Once again, until all the ramifications of a situation are known, alternatives CANNOT be proposed.

Thanks Jeff. I was about to chime in and point out that since DAZ doesn't own the file formats to dial settings, they might want to apologize to Curious Labs for claiming any rights whatsoever on CL copyrighted material. In fact, those files are allowed to be sold only because CL says so. If CL wanted to announce that no .pz3's etc. could ever be sold without license, they could, so whoever is feeling sensitive over at DAZ better start checking with a copyrights lawyer before treating community members to a hard line. Paul

Sad fact of life #1283: You can't "own" a dial setting. Technically speaking, Curious Labs owns every dial setting from within the Poser software, and every lighting position. Why are we allowed to sell them? Because Steve Cooper knows that it's a benefit to everyone to allow anyone who wants to make content for his product. Duh. Now, DAZ, I feel for you, and I sympathize that you need to worry about money at a time when you just purchased freeware and a home pc... but let the rest of us be, will ya? We bought Vicky, so you got our dollars already. You want more? Produce something we want. :) Paul

Note about the preceding posts: This was previously going to be the topic of a magazine article, but since it's pretty relevant to the current situation, I thought I might just go ahead and spoil the ending. Cheers.

I saw this thread earlier and only glanced over it. When I came back, I was searching for the link that USED to be here but couldn't find it thanks to the goofy TOS I imagine. That aside, I ended up finding what this all started from (read: the former link), and I see that DAZ (hereafter typed as daz because I'm lazy) has put their collective feet in their mouth (not just one foot, but two). If one looks at the various FAQs and responses, one would be led to believe it's illegal to well...do anything that even results in any sort of reflection of a daz product, i.e. a piece of clothing that fits a daz model, or some other such item. Well, that would never stand up in court, but they have money. How about a class action lawsuit? I'm no lawyer, but those seem nifty. Or what about one of those various groups that supports software folks being pushed around by big companies? Anyhow, that stuff aside, since I really think that's taking the extreme possibilities route, I believe daz will see what people are saying and realize how confusing they are on their stance and how bad an idea it is (relating to the various things they proposed for morphs). If some of this must stick, maybe we'll at least get a clear list on what's "acceptable" and what is not. (I don't see using the bodysuit as a particularly good replacement for a body, especially if you need to show some skin. Mapping a body texture onto one to "replace" the body just seems like it'd result in something ugly, making the bodysuit only useful as a full article of clothing, hopped up on morphs or not, which makes it only partially useful.) Now, I know we're still trying to figure out what's going on, but we also don't have all of the information, which also makes it difficult to understand the possible ramifications, though it doesn't mean we shouldn't try, just let's not go overboard. Let's give them some time to respond and then, and only then, will we really know what to do. In the meanwhile, who's going to start on the freeware models? ;)

I think if Daz is so concerned about people using Taylor to "rip off" their morphs for use with clothing then at the very least Daz owes it to everyone who's ever bought even a single Daz clothing item to come out with new versions of each clothing item they sell with every possible morph included to match those of Vick & Mike. They then must give those upgraded versions free to every customer they've sold to. No new clothing items should ever be released by them without all those morphs included as well. If they won't do that, then to hell with what they want. Use Tailor & let them take you to court, they'll probably lose and even if they don't it'll cost them a ton of money and time. NW316

Hehe, maybe should make a freeware figure that is Posette clothes compatible... ;)

glances up at the top of the thread... Heh, I hope Ron didn't have "Email me when someone replies" checked... 32 posts so far, counting this one... and odds are -EVERYONE- is going to chime in here.

DAZ can say whatever the f*** they like. Their position on this subject is legally unenforcebale. Tailor does not copy morphs. It creates new morphs in a totally different mesh. DAZ are getting way too paranoid, and their only way of enforcing this sort of crap is by bullying and threats. They have crossed the line a couple of times recently. I totally support the right of any artist/creator/vendor to protect their work, but this goes beyond.

jw

Heh... Stay tuned folks... DAZ is just getting revved up, I got a feeling... something in the air smells funky, and I just got outta the shower so I know it ain't me. :) Entropic

Hoo boy. My eye's twitching too. I hope its just allergies...

Why would DAZ do that? This is rather drastic. Could this have anything to do with the comming of P5? Q

I highly doubt that's the case quixote. If there were something in P5 that could make DAZ freak out about there market, Rosity would be, too. Nonetheless, I definitely smell blood...

hmmm... maybe with buying a site like poserpros?

Maybe... I think we're getting warmer...

Hell of a deal for poserpros...

Yup. For a "nonprofit" site, they sure just made bank.

So this could be an exclusive market place for everything morphed (the new poserpros, I mean), with daz getting a cut on every sale. Quite a coup, if that's it.

So, I slip back to this and find not just brats, but vicious brats sharpening their pointy fangs and looking for something to bite. It also looks like 2-3 posts above mine have been deleted, that was the 23rd or 24th message. Valander, at least you are willing to wait until DAZ answers before skewering them. My comments about spoiled children are a general blanket condemnation of this group, of which very few reasonable people may get excepted. The initial post was provocative and demanding, and the tone since then has been relentless and increasingly strident. I need to clear my head, and grocery shopping ought to do it. If I don't come back with cat food, I may find pointy fangs closer to home anyway. Carolly

like said by several here already, cant tell me that I cant make a morph or character myself that resembles something..dont care who you are. cant tell me I cant use industry standards to create something either (modeling around a figure or image IS standard..if it weren't, why do almost all apps have this ability?) this is unenforcable..but, when daz see's it they'll respond...and ya'll should be patient until then :) but the real reason Im posting is that this looks like its gonna get good and I wanted an email when someone posts..lol BT

As long as you don't use a copyrighted name you can not stop someone from making clothing that fits to a certain dimension. If tailor uses copyright code belonging to DAZ then DAZ may have a case. However this seems unlikely. It will cost DAZ a fortune to prove that the do have a copyright to the sizes of their models, and the may be unsuccessful eventually. DAZ has to find the person involved and that may be impossible from a net name. DAZ has to be sure its not suing a 13 year old boy or someone with no assets. So does DAZ have the money, the time , the ability to find the owner of tailor? If it does will it want to spend the money on a dubious case? This barking dog has no teeth, it does not matter what DAZ's position is if its not leagaly enforcable matter

If you think the talk is rough here, you see the anger over at PoserPros. There's no conspiracy here, we are all bailing in the same damn sinking boat. I do not want to have to go to one only place to buy clothes for mil figures that fit. That looks like the issue. And it sucks. It doesn't stop at Tailor. Not in the fine print. It really doesn't stop anywhere. I just hate RobberBaron mentality! And I don't see that being a patient little doormat helps anyone at this point. Emily Well, I wanted to learn Vue anyway.

Geez! And I just bought Micheal 2 three hours ago! Alex

quixote: Well,I doubt they can get away with an exclusive market, even if they want to... hauksdottir: DAZ has increasingly caused problems for the community. I wasn't going to go into this here, but they've been acting pretty damn shady for awhile now. As for their acquisition of PoserPros, I said I wish them the best, andI mean it. Don't get me wrong though, I think it was an example of chasing bad beer with bad whiskey, and expecting it to improve things. Am I sharpening my fangs? Nope! I'm content to sit back and be entertained by the ensuing chaos... It makes for a good laugh. Beyond that, this bullshit that they're pretending is their "right" is really just a load. If they had taken any time or consideration to consult any legal counsel, they'd know that. Even pretending to have the right to revoke a person's implied license on what, in effect, is an aspect of the P4 software is offensive, and I have no intention of letting good merchants and members get beat up on. This attempt by DAZ to restrict the community is an effort to defend their market's mediocrity. This would be like Ford saying that only they can build a radiator hose to a 1977 Pinto, because they built the Pinto. Welcome to a free market economy, brothers and sisters, and let the best developer win. Paul

Usually this sort of decision is taken either out of greed or has a reaction to something comming down the line. I can't fault anyone for jumping to the greed conclusion with Enron, Worldcom and Xerox so prominently in the news. But it may be best to wait and see on this one. Perhaps I'm less cynical than usual right now, but I have a feeling that it's "something comming down the line" with this one. Too many changes comming. Very difficult to speculate. Stay cool, Q

quixote: I agree that change is in the wind, quixote. I think it's gonna be pretty tough to divine what reactions are being made to which changes, though, because there's a whole lot of turbulence. If we just look at a few of the issues of the day we can easily find 5 or 10 different upheavals in the market and in the community. Personally, I think the end result will be a stronger community, but I'm sure there will be a bit of chaos between now and then. Paul