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Resentful, aren't you?

DAZ3D are starting to piss me off, hope everything turns out alright.

what are Daz up to now??? Off to read, off to read....

Pariah, Start with the message from last Tuesday at PoserPros. Steve Kondris posted an answer to a question there. That will provide some background for the comments made here. Carolly

If you need a special cr2 of the Millenium figures to distribute because of the morphs, I don't see why people are surprised that morphs transferred with the Tailor can't be distributed. Seems like exactly the same thing to me. ::confused by the confusion and anger::

Butt it's like JeffH said, The Tailor only approximats the morphs, it doesn't apply them. There's no violation, period. That's the problem. DAZ may be trying to way overstep their boundries.

Okay, I just read all this and see if I understand, for example, I buy a model from Daz, I create something FOR that model and I am okay to sell it.....now I create something using parts of the model I bought from Daz and sell it, that is violating the copyright law....that is what this is about correct? Because I used part of the original model I am in violation....I understand, I don't see the problem. If this is the case, I agree with them. I will tell you why, when Mike and I make an original model and say we give it away for free, then someone takes that model and uses parts of it and then sells that model, they are using something that we created not them, and they have no right to redistribute that model without our permission. So, if I understand this correctly I don't see a problem...but I could be misunderstanding this, so if I am wrong please explain clearly, without malice, just the facts. Sharen

No one stating that that is a problem, Sharen, we all agree that doign that is wrong. The problem is, the way it looks, is that Daz is going to prohibit distribution of items created with The Tailor for Michael2 and Vicky 2. The Tailor only approximates morphs, it doesn't copy them, therefor Daz would be totally off base is disallowing this sort of item.

Can I ask you why are they being so specific in prohibiting items created for Michael2 and Vicky2? If they are specific with just these two models I wonder why not the rest of their models....? Sharen

Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2316

Thanks for the info, I am on my way to read it....maybe I will then understand this controversy. Thanks again for the info...Sharen

Good Luck getting the page to load. Looks like the server over there is a bit taxed since this all broke loose.

I wonder if the reason they are singling out Mike's body suit could be the fact that if you morph the body suit using Mike 2, say to simulate one of the muscular FBM's, then you put it on Mike 1, then morph the suit and, for all intents and purposes have a muscle man figure! I do this now with some clothes to save memory. (I do own Mike 1 and 2, by the way). Now, to add fuel to this fire. Since you can't distribute clothing morphs made from the Tailor... how about "hand-made" clothing morphs? Exactly what is the difference? Or does this just involve the swap of full CR2's, not specific morphs? mike

Trav I think things have been taken out of context. You should read the actuall Daz statement. Ron

Well I dont know much about the theory of how tailor works, but I think that it will not take a part of the mesh from Vicky or Mike , and attach it to the cloth. So if I load the obj of Vicky or Mike into a modeler, and make a cloth, I need to make the shape by hand. But in tailor, computer did that for me, thats it. Whats the different? If Daz said that clothes altered by tailor violate copyrights, how about cloths altered by other modeling program? OK, let everyone here only buy models from Daz, they will happy.

What I think is crazy that if you now sell the product exclusive you should let the people who buy it do what they want with it. I didn't buy the Mike Morphing Clothing Pak 2 because it looks like it cutting his "N*ts off it all the promo pictures. Also the pictures results did not look real.

If you follow the link that ronknights posted, will see an image showing a comparison of what Daz DOES NOT WANT TO HAPPEN. Using Tailor to recreated Mike2/Vicki2 morphs WITHOUT the buying of Mike2/Vicki2. I am going to distill the information into points. 1. DAZ creates Mike2/Vicki2. Which are basiclly Mike1/Vicki1 with morphs. Daz wants to protect those morphs. For exmaple, if somebody who owns Victoria 1 got their hands on the morphs from Victoria 2, they could use the morphs without paying for them. 2. John Brugioni creates Morphing Clothing Paks for Victoria and Michael. They are the clothing paks with Mike2/Vicki2 morphs. 3. Codetwister creates The Tailor. An application that can approximate morphs from one base figure into a conforming figure. 4. People where using Tailor to put Victoria 2 morphs into clothing for ease of use and to make the clothing more usable. For example, I now have downloaded two Victoria catsuits that Victoria 2 morphs in them. 5. Somebody points out that a person could use Tailor and approximate Mike2/Vicki2 morphs from clothing back to Mike1/Vicki1. Effectively getting Mike2/Vicki2 morphs WITHOUT paying for them. Point 5 shows the problem. Daz could claim Tailor reverse engineers THEIR morphs and forbid distribution of clothing with Mike2/Vicki2 morphs. To protect their morphs, Daz would also have to pull John Brugioni's Morphing Clothing paks and the3dwizard's Clothing Morph Kit 3 because they contain Mike2/Vicki2 morphs and somebody using Tailor could get the Mike2/Vicki2 morphs without paying for them. All above has been pure fact. Below is my opinion. That course of action is not fair to John Brugioni or the3dwizard. They worked very hard to re-create the morphs in the clothing. Also, Daz would have to ban all magnets that mimic Mike2/Vicki2 morphs because somebody could create morphs based on them and use Tailor to approximate them into another character. Daz can not put the genie back in the bottle. Daz does have the legal right to control what happens to thier morphs. But, From what I see. Tailor automates what John Brugioni and the3dwizard did. Daz accepted those morphs as being different. Are the ones created in Tailor different from the base morphs used? I say yes. Well, I hope I made it easier to understand the issue. But, ultimately it is up to Daz to decide.

Well first off Daz did not say many of the things people are saying they did. If you look very close at the post they made at PoserPros it simply is from their faq which has been on their site for months. However, there was an example they used where they would have a problem if the Tailor was used. It was Mikes catsuit where a person would use tailor to morph the catsuit using the Mike2 morphs. Then distribute the new catsuit with the Mike2 morphs. Thats the only example they gave. They also gave an example where it was okay to use the Tailor so I dont understand all the hoopla. Let them respond and see what they say to some of the miss information people seem to be spreading around. Ron

Here is the actual quote. No where in it did Daz say you cant use the Tailor except under limited circumstances which to me are very fair. "There is little to no creative abilities within the bounds/code of the Tailor, simply tools to manipulate/transfer/organize, etc. And though Codetwister's application does allow some pretty unique results, this is not considered original creation or design. HOWEVER, and this is the big crucial "however", because the new cr2's generated by The Tailor still require that people possess both AIko and the Victoria Clothing Pak in order to make use of the new CR2's. Whenever a new character or product requires that both the figure that the morphs were transferred from and the figure that the morphs were transferred to be owned already by the users, then this process is legal. When this guideline is adhered to, neither DAZ, nor any of the artists that work cooperatively as Brokered Artists with DAZ, or any other creator for that matter, is damaged by such new creations. This does not mean that derivative characters cannot be made or sold if they work off of limited use CR2 files. In fact, there are many ways in which this can be done, whether it be via MOR Pose files (perhaps the most preferred method by us), OBJaction mover, etc. By "Limited Use CR2" I mean those that are non-distributable. In the case of DAZ's property, any Millennium Figure CR2 (other than say Michael 1.0, Victoria 1.0, or the Millennium Baby to name a few) is considered to be "non-distributable". What I want to address here though is the concept of "circumvention". This is the simplest and most accurate way to state DAZ's position on any such characters. The only thing DAZ considers unfair, and therefore illegal, is when someone creates a character that then makes it possible for people to truly benefit from the Millennium Figures CR2 contents without having to purchase the Millennium Figure itself. For example, if someone creates a CR2 file for Michael's Bodysuit that contains the Muscular3 morph from Michael 2.0 and then begins to distribute that new CR2 publicly or commercially, suddenly people who have never purchased Michael 2.0 will benefit from items included only within Michael 2.0. We feel that this is unfair, particularly when it creates a disincentive to purchase that original product. Basically, anything that circumvents the need to purchase an original product is most likely not allowed. There is another issue that needs to be addressed: Under normal licensing standpoints, it would be damaging to the sales of The Tailor, since people could get the morphs without purchasing The Tailor. But, "Codetwister" has relinquished all such rights openly and publicly, stating specifically that such practices are allowable. I have personally communicated with CodeTwister specifically on this issue and he has reaffirmed his desire not to restrict the use of his application with such copyright rules." Ron

Ron just read what they actually said! They are not going to sue you. If they have a problem with what your doing they will tell you. Ron

Ron, please reconsider. While I agree that you and all poser folks are well within their rights to react as they feel best - I do wish folks would wait till at least Monday, being this whole thing will likely not be picked up by DAZ till then.. and it's possible that this will actually all pan out to the benefit of everyone. Looking forward to seeing your work back on display for the community - Suede

Here's the issue: you do NOT need to have Vicki 2 if you have a dress with morphs for Vicki 2 if you get creative. (And only slightly creative at that.) If I have Vicki 1 but clothe her with a dress with Vicki 2 morphs, I can spin the breast dials and it will look like Vicki 1 has the breast morphs as well, as the clothing covers the affected areas. That circumvents the need to have Vicki 2. By current definition and examples, that dress is now off-limits. Many of the body morphs that make the clothing larger (such as pear-body, most breast morphs, heavy, muscular, etc.) cover the underlying mesh so you CAN use Vicki 1 or Mike 1 without much effort. All of those morphs are now off-limits. You can also hide body parts, so many version 2 clothing morphs that make body parts smaller or substantially move them can still be used by those who only own version 1 models. Then there's post production. Hell, without much effort I can have Posette wearing Vicki clothing, version 1 or version 2. All version 2 morphs are now off-limits. I don't feel that I'm overreacting. I am going by what Daz has written. It's one thing to say that you can not redistribute morphs from Vicki 1 to Vicki 2. It's something entirely different to say that you can not create morphs (by Tailor, Rhino, Zbrush, etc.) to make clothes fit version 2 characters because someone may get creative and find a way to work the version 2 clothing on version 1 figures.

They STILL aren't saying you can't CREATE morphs. They're saying you can't DISTRIBUTE them. This is and has always been a DISTRIBUTION issue. Even the original question was in regards to distribution by someone who was considering making an item for SALE. Kate

Well, the technicalities of it confuse me, but what's new about that!? I had 2 cents laying around so I thought I'd drop it here since Ron has been an early friend since I came to R'City. Gleened from above: The post at PoserPros is just a quote that has been posted at DAZ for months. So, this is not new, it's just something that has come to light. I don't understand how the Tailor can "give" DAZ's morphs away, but I assume if they are concerned about it, it can be done. DAZ has never given me the impression they are "Microsoft-ish" I would not expect them to sue anyone. They pop out of nowhere and give stuff away that was unexpected. They have provided the perfect place to buy cheap yet incredible products that allow us to delve into something ordinarily very costly. They know the "Poser" community is a partnership. I would just expect them to say, "Pull the item." and leave it at that. They "cruise" this place ALL the time and I figure they know what's going on. So, I wouldn't worry about being sued. Ron, if I were in your shoes...sorry...I'd just send them an email and tell them you are taking said products off the list...or even ask them for clarification if you wish. I'm sure you'd meet a considerate answer. To make it simpler, do as they "suggested"...if somehow their copyrights are being circumvented, though it appears to be legal, then, it is illegal. I know Ron to be a person completely against warez and I don't think for a moment he had that intent in mind. I don't think DAZ would, either. As a side note, I find it weird that the author of Tailor would take the stance he has since it would cut into his sales. I mean people could let others make mods for clothing and pass it on to those who didn't even own Tailor. Personally, I think the Tailor should be for personal use. And...hehe, I need to buy it. My 2 cents is up.... Please don't get upset with this revelation from DAZ. As I said, if the Tailor can somehow give away thier product, then it should not be allowed. I want thier profits to remain healthy and their prices to remain where they are right now.

That's the problem, Chuck. Tailor can't "somehow give away their product". All it can do is the very same thing you could do in a modeling program - create a morph that approximates the shape of another morph.

Like its been said before it'd be best to wait see what DAZ says....if your why i say that and add to the long thread its coz i want an ebot ;o)......Steve

I don't own "the Tailor", Vicky 2 or Mike 2. With all this confusion, I may not even bother with them altogether. As a rule I have found DAZ to be fair and responsive. Maybe the best route is to contact them directly for some help or clarification. Just a suggestion. Does DAZ really want to cause all this confusion to the Poser community? I would hope not, and perhaps the policy might be better explained in a way that is understandable to everyone. We aren't all legal experts, just artists trying to create. I read the Poser Pros info. It's still confusing. We need explicit and clear guidelines, so artists like Ronknights and others, don't have to go thru this uncertainty.

I also tried the outfit on low-res Vicki. It's useable. This armor is not a cat-suit. The chainmail part of the armor is actual a texture on the base model. However, you can still use some of the morphs (especially the breast morphs) on the armor to simulate the morphs on Vicki 2. I'm in violation because I've released morphs that circumvent the need to own Vicki 2.

I suppose I could go through and weed out every morph that could be used without owning Vicki 2, Stephanie, or Aiko, (those that enlarge) but then I'd be throwing out every breast morph, every morph that enlarges part of the body, and every morph that reduces part of the body as someone could turn the dials to a negative number, increasing the size of the clothing to cover over the base model and eliminate the need to have the upgraded version. Um, what morphs are left?

As I said, IronBear, I certainly don't understand it or how it can be done or what they are afraid of, but I don't think DAZ would "screw" their "partners/customers". Perhaps, as mentioned above, a clarification is in order. Heck, I'm an idiot anyway...LOL.

I agree with you on that. A clarification would be nice. ;] However... I'm cynical enough to think that the clarification resolves around some marketing guru getting his shorts in a knot at the thought that they're losing tons of bucks to Tailor items... I have a generally jaundiced view of my fellow man. Sue me. ;]

Did you ever wonder about DAZ's statement suggesting they'd agree to an arrangement where the person doing the Tailored clothes has an exclusive selling/brokered arrangement to sell their stuff at DAZ?! It's ok to sell something that might "steal" Mike or Vicky's morphs as long as DAZ gets part of the profits?!

I'm confused how an app that "approximates" a morph is actually violating copyright laws? I know if you take part of model and use it in another that is copyright violation, but the Tailor DOESN'T do that, does it? It only makes a morph that is similar right? I guess what I'm looking for is an explanation on how, approximates and similar is the same as the object itself and thus a violattion of copyright. Or am I totally clueless? :)

On one hand I can kinda see Daz's point of view about the bodysuits. They worked hard to create all those morphs, and they should reap the rewards. But on the other hand they have left us with no way to share (or sell) things we make on our own. For example I create a Mimi character (Drew Carey Show) that is heavily morphed using Vicky 2. I then morph and outfit for her by hand (I don't have Tailor yet) I can distribute the pose file for vicky but there is no way to share the clothing, even with those people who own all the things I do. So what all this boils down to is there needs to be a way to encode .cr2 files the same way we can encode .obj files. *sidenote, for me the selling point for the 2nd editions of mike & vicky were the head morphs and the P4 versions. I really didn't care about the body morphs.

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Like steveshanks...I too want ebots on this subject. But on the same note I have a bit of a question myself. Since this all revolves around the bodysuit basicly. If all the morphed bodysuits that were Tailor made go away why still should I or anyone buy Mike 2(even though I did way back)since now DAZ themselves sell a Tailor made bodysuit? People could just buy that and use it on Mike 1 without buying Mike2. GeorgeD

Having read all the furore about DAZ and their CR2 claims etc... 1. They are selling the Tailor... 2. If u create clothing (that fits) from the tailor, and you would like to sell it on DAZ that would be ok... Q. Why the heck would anyone buy the tailor now, if they cannot use it to produce (near approximations) of the morphs to make 3rd party clothing fit DAZ's models?? Please disregard if that seem's like a ludicrous question resulting from a ludicrous situation ;)

You know, you really clarified something for me. I've been reading this, rereading this, looking over the FAQ and other things at DAZ and even though something seemed obviously wrong on a deeper level, it wasn't until you said: "If all the morphed bodysuits that were Tailor made go away why still should I or anyone buy Mike 2(even though I did way back)since now DAZ themselves sell a Tailor made bodysuit? People could just buy that and use it on Mike 1 without buying Mike2." That made the little light inside the head go on for me. It seems ludicrous to complain about a $30.00 item being used to approximate the look of Michael 2's morphs when for only $12.97 you could buy the dial settings for ALL of Michaels clothing and never, ever need to purchase Michael 2. I keep thinking of cliches my grandmother used...things like "The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing" and "cutting off their nose to spite their face". I tried not to get mad, I really did.

Ron- You shouldn't have to remove your free stuff. As the poster above said- until DAZ actually starts issuing "cease and desist" orders (or can prove that you are violating copyrights), you should leave your stuff up. And not to worry- they won't sue you. Because (no offense) if they did, you would raise such a "stink" that everybody-and-their-brother would know what DAZ did to you. And, in the process, DAZ would have so much bad publicity that no one would shop there any more. So, in the interest of "protecting" their sales, if they sued you, they would effectively kill their sales. And if DAZ did actually sue you, then they would have to sue every other person who has made free stuff like you have... and, again, this would kill their own market. --John

John, and others, thanks for the support. I have to say that even the possibility of a lawsuit brings a potential threat into my household. A responsible man doesn't do things that bring threats into his household. I've already received heat from my wife when one of my more bitter struggles with some Renderosity members resulted in the descration of my web site and my wife's. My wife doesn't understand my "need" to continually get myself into trouble, and really resented the fact that the dispute involved her web site as well. I managed to outlive that "sin" in my wife's eye, but she still worries that I might somehow bring other threats our way. Fortunately Dodi is out of town for the weekend. But when she returns I'll need to tell her why I removed some of my Poser characters, including the one I named after her. I'll leave those characters out for now while I figure just what I can safely do.

I want to follow this thread too ;-)

His wife doesn't understand his "need" to continually get himself into trouble? Did I just read that? Hmmm.... Ok, John, It looks like Ron wants to be sued. First and Foremost. He is doing everything possible to single himself out as an aggrieved victim. How many posts? With pictures? Oooooh! I'd expect the evidence to appear in court as glossy 8 X 10s with circles and arrows and a paragragh on the back of each one. ;^) [I do hope that other people remember the song, and the way it goes round and round.] Carolly

And you can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant... Sing along now. ;]

Oh Carolly, you have such a way of making manure out of everything don't you? I wanted to be sure of two things: 1.) That people knew why many of my Free Stuff Items were removed. 2.) That people knew of this situation regarding the distribution of clothes altered by The Tailor. I'm sorry if that aggrieves you so. You do have the option of just avoiding this thread, or you can just stop reading any messages I write. But I think that would deprive you of some perverse pleasure. By the way, I've been assured that I don't need to be concerned about legal problems in this manner. Now maybe you could do us both a favor and find someone else to bother with your gadfly tactics? I'm going to find the fly swatter now.

ron

bshafer, The cat needs to be smiling a lot more! Can you give her that ear-to-ear grin of sheer exuberant playfulness? Perhaps the mouse disagrees with the exact definition of "fun", but it should be clear that the cat doesn't have a malicious bone in her body. A nice grin. :)= Thank you. Carolly

Ron as cat, now that is funny.

Actually, I'm a "dog man," always have been. The only reason there is a cat in the house, along with a dog, is because my wife assembled our motley crew of animals before we got together.

I talk to a lawyer every friday. A couple weeks ago we talked about copyright and trademark that was obviously not related to this case. There were a couple things I took away from that conversation. Just because a contract exists does not make it binding. Most contracts even say that if part of the contract is found non binding, the rest of the contract remains in place and is enforceable. Why? Everyone has their own opinion, and that includes judges and juries. A contract may say you can not do something with a product you bought, but it is non binding, as the intended use of the product would logically lead one to assume that certain things would be done with the product. If you were to use the actual physical coded properties of any file, which would nearly require reverse engineering of the original products code, then that would be copyright violation. If, however, you use the knowledge of certain physical characteristics, and independently duplicate an original product without using any code of the original, this is a derivitive work and is normally allowed by the courts. The best defensive question is : How legal is it for a company to put restrictions on its products. I have downloaded lights and poses where the author put a restriction on the use of the files. I could simply read his attributes and duplicate the same myself. There is no copyright violation. The DAZ issue is like Microsoft saying we have to purchase electronic stamps to send email. I thought about the purchase of some of the DAZ products in the past and was turned off by the restrictions. I didn't want to think if it is okay to one thing, but not if I use another character. The best way for all of us to solve this problem is to vote with your money. Don't buy DAZ products. They will give up their restrictions or go out of business. That means DON'T download their FREE stuff either. I haven't, and won't, for the same reasons we all are talking about this. Just had to put in my two cents worth!