Well here we go, something of a solution to the problem with Morphs which can make a figure look like Mike or Vic 2 and just be version 1. I talked to Steve at DAZ, and he the PTB (Powers that Be) there. And, they think this is the solution for the time being. However I'd love for everyone to try this out/test it with Macs and different files. Down to the meat of this; how to distribute clothing that will fit M2/V2. The answer is pretty simple. ObjMover. Yup that's right. See it basically just encodes a text file using another text file as the seed. This is obvious since OBJs are nothing but text. So what can this do to help with modified CR2s you ask? Well what's a CR2.. a text file. So if you rename the CR2's file extension to OBJ for the encoding, and when decoded you'll have to change it back to CR2, PZ3 etc etc. Now, what to use as the seed? Well, V2 and M2 luckily come with objs which are unique to their version. These three respectively are: blVickiP4.obj and blP4Michael.obj or blP4MilHipNoGen.obj So, with these as seeds you have an encoded CR2 that can contain morphs similar to the ones in V2/M2 that can be distributed according DAZ Meat and Gravy tutorial. Take your CR2 of clothing with V2/M2 morphs, rename it OBJ. Use it as the figure file, and then load one of the unique V/M2 OBJs as seeds. And boom you have the PCF. When Decoding: Load PCF, Use the OBJ seed file (Again should be one of the unique OBJs for the version 2 chars) Once decoded you change the extension to CR2 (Or other file format) and use to heart's content. Please let me know if this works with Mac's version of Maz's utility? A link to Maz's site for PC users: http://www.sandylodge.demon.co.uk/ Again, this solution for V2/M2 morphs has been approved by DAZ, as of today. Tom/Depa king.thomas2@verizon.net

Sounds like a great Idea, maybe we could get OBJ Mover made to accept CR2 encoding..this interim step would be great but with so many potential new users that don't understand file structures this addition to Mover would be welcome.....Then you could simply use the M2 or V2 CR2 and the seed...Seeing as how all Objaction does is encode the difference shouldn't be too difficult to add the CR2 file option..

This sounds interesting, but hopefully it's a short-term solution because this adds a fair amount of complexity to installing purchased items. I have been thinking about making a simple setup program for PCs that would do something similar. Basically it would be a self extracting ZIP stub that would scan the V2/M2 CR2 file and validate it before extracting the archive to the appropriate location. There would be a setup wizard that would allow you to pick the files and then it would create an encrypted self-extracting ZIP. Any thoughts? Brian

I've emailed MAZ about allowing the figure file to be a CR2 (etc). The problem with using the Mike2 or Vick2 CR2 as the seed and not the OBJ is the size. Trust me on this one, tested it. Tom

I will try this on my body suit right now and let you know, but it doesn't help those with commercial products because objaction mover can't be used for them...unless Maz changes his position on that of course.

Right, I know. I emailed him about that as well. Though I was thinking, what if a CR2 for the commercial product with the morphs from M2 were given away as a freebie? You buy the base model and base CR2 for the morphs though here in freestuff you would need to own both the product and M2 for it to work. Let me know how it works for you SciFi. Tom

Um, please don't take this the wrong way, but there's been so much confusion about who said what and how, that I'd like to hear an actual DAZ official say this is OK.

so they are still claimig rights to "aproximated" morphs??

I tested it and it works great! And no FyreSpirit, I'm not taking dep's word for it ;) However, it does seem this would totally allieviate Daz' concerns over people who don't own Mike2 being able to use a tailor morphed clothing cr2 based on him. That doesn't mean there aren't questions that still need to be answered, but this is certainly a step in the right direction.

DAZ is completely in support of this latest idea. We wish we would have thought of this as a potential application of this program earlier in order to avoid this issue altogether. We have not tried this out ourselves yet, so I cannot say that this is absolutely THE sure-fire method that everyone's looking for. However, I can definitely say that DAZ is 100% behind any technology that allows users to share anything they want yet still makes sure that the end-user/recipient owns the products required so that nothing proprietary is passed around for free. This concept, as it was explained to us by depakotez, seems to fully protect any and every artist's work, and that is what we want to see maintained and protected. I'm anxious to see exactly how this new idea can be implemented, and if it can be done successfully, I think it will be a great new method to adopt. I urge everyone to do what testing of this that they can, we'll keep our fingers crossed. Thanks again for contacting me about this, depakotez, I think everyone is grateful for the time you put into brainstorming on this.

No problem, and I don't blame people for not taking my word for it right off. I wouldn't have either, considering all the stuff that's been flying around lately. Sci, awesome that it works. Anyone else try this out? Tom/Depa

Steve, I would be more than happy to provide you with my body suit encoded under this scheme if you would like to test it. Because it was always free, I do not need additional permission from Maz. In fact, the obj is already pcf encoded to accomodate the remap. If you can provide me with your email I will fire it off you asap.

Thank you for stopping by and letting us know DAZ's stance on this portion of the issue. But it doesn't help in regards to commercial use does it? I thought obj mover was personal use only... And dep, thanks for looking for a solution!

No probs LSM, Quoting DTHUREGRIF from 'another place' here. "Maz recently gave permission for ObjMover to be used on commercial products until he could come out with the "pro" version as long as credit is given. However, since he can't have foreseen this expanded commercial use, I think his permission should be obtained first. Diane " I'm not entirely sure where that would be posted in Maz's words, but I have emailed Maz about all this. And, if the clothing that has morphs that would simulate M2 morphs (Approximations that cover the body making M1 obsolete) it could be given away as a freebie. Someone could buy the full fledged model/figure with a base cr2, the cr2 with M2/V2 morphs could be an encoded freebie. Tom

There's another problem with using cr2's as seeds - they tend to change as each user personalizes them in some small way. You need something that will stay stable. The millenium P4 figure obj files (and the steph obj and millennium girls obj files) are perfect for the purpose. It falls down for the Millennium Boys though, since they don't have a unique obj of their own.

Agreed, that's why I suggested using the OBJs mentioned in the first post. To avoid the whole problem of size and changes that would come from using a CR2 as a seed. As for the Mil Boys.. ouch, I hadn't thought of that, but I don't recall them being an issue were they? Since the boys and girls, clothing morphed for them can't really be used by anyone else right? Tom

I guess boy clothing could be used on the girls, masking their female figures and making them look masculine. The boys are an add-on to the girls and use the girl geometry, just with some morphs to make them have more masculine bodies and faces. I think that's right anyway. I haven't looked at it too closely.

Since they are an addon, they still use a unique OBJ file as the seed, that would be blMilGirlPS.obj wouldn't it? Since that is the unique file for the boys and girls. Tom

The problem is, you get that obj with the girls, so you don't have to have the boys to get the benefit of a bodysuit with their body morphs.

Very valid Ajax, you'll have to forgive me for my lapse there. Been a long day for me due to work etc. I think that's something that would have to be asked of Daz? I don't have any kind of authority ;) Help me out here, the problems relate to M2's morphs since the EULA for him was the most restrictive? Tom

For what it's worth I tried this, resulted in a corrupt object, trashed Poser, trashed the ffobj.arp, trashed my system registry and took down Win2k. Nice effect. That's the first time I've had a major crash in a long while. Thank goodness for dat tape backups. :) I'll try it again later once I find out what went wrong.

Wow Questor, I know that you had a crash from testing it but had no clue that it would do that to you. You're the first (Of possibly several) that had an issue with it. Thank goodness for DAT Tapes, I second that. If you figure out what happened, or a combo that messed up let us know? Tom

Just one question: Does the restriction (PCF decoding) apply to items in a DAZ store too?

I don't have the milboys, so I don't know anything about them. Are there really any morphs that need to be protected in them? Aren't Mike2/Vicki2 the only restricted cr2s (maybe Steph, I'm not sure)? Even if this was the case, Daz may be willing to create a "dummy" version obj for the Milboys and provide it as an update to owners (via the "email me your purchase order" process) to faciliate this process. I can't imagine that would be very difficulte to do...delete his head or something so the file is different ;)

Or heck just a seed file, like a 500k text file with random characters even? Mad: As for the stuff in the store, I think DAZ is mostly wanting to avoid clothing and such being distributed that can 'circumvent' having to own Mike2/Vick2/Steph to get the same effect. Something I'm not saying I agree with, just this is one attempt at a work around/solution rather than confrontation. Tom

M2 was used as an example but the essence of the problem is that morphs from an add-on character could be approximated in a body covering clothing item such as a bodysuit and that clothing item could then be worn by a base version of the figure (one that doesn't come with the add-on character morphs). This would give the base version the appearance of having the body of the add-on character, though the user doesn't own the add-character. In the case of the kids, you could make a bodysuit that fits the boys and someone who only owns the girls could could put them in that bodysuit, giving them the appearance of having the boy's body. Since the boys don't come with an obj of their own, there's nothing to use as a valid seed.

Ugh, what an unnecessary annoyance. Granted, it'd only take seconds, but add that up by several items (especially in one package), and you have a pissed off user/customer. A general rule of commerce (one of many) is, don't annoy the customer. I don't jump through hoops for something that shouldn't require a hoop in the first place. Next solution, please. Perhaps reconsidering the ridiculous policy could be tried now.

Well, I use the Poserworld clothing for the DAZBoys all the time with the DAZGirls. I don't own the boys. If you say to me this is illegal I will go ballistic.

scifiguy, I bet they'd take exactly the same view with respect to Steph. Vic in a Steph bodysuit could look like she has all of those Steph musculature morphs. I'd say they would want to protect the boys too. That product has a few textures but it's mostly sold on morphs. There's no obj - it's essentially a morph only product. The textures are mostly there to sweeten the deal a bit I think.

***If you figure out what happened, or a combo that messed up let us know? Tom *** Yeah, sure. As I said, once I track the problem I'll have another go, but I'll be sure to let you know why it happened if it's something that I think might occur to others. My system set up is pretty odd and probably not common amongst community members so if it's system related I don't see a lot of point unless the error replicates and re-occurs.

Whoop: I didn't make the policy, just trying to figure a way around it for us user/hobbiest to share our stuff within the bounds of what DAZ is asking with the policy. I'm in the same boat as everyone else, just trying to make the waves a little less choppy. :)

This might be a silly idea, but what about using UV Mapper to create a uvs file instead of objaction mover? Anybody try that yet?

UV Mapper requires two files with UV Co-ords right? CR2s don't have UV XYs. Try it for us, if my understanding of UVS files is correct though it probably won't work. Be cool if it does :) Tom

You're right, Doug. That's a silly idea ;-)

I think people need to keep in mind that this doesn't affect every clothing item. Daz has already stated that they don't have issues with things like a pair of shorts, boots, etc. Only with things like the body suit that totally cover the figure's body. Even they haven't been able to come up with another item that would fit this bill yet! So, it appears to me that the number of items that would actually need encoding is going to be very few and the others could be distributed as normal cr2s. And as has already been stated, under Maz' current licensing pcf encoded files could not be provided in the commercial package itself. So you could provide a base "ready to go" cr2 in that, and anything that needed to be pcf encoded in your freestuff as a free addon.

scifiguy: "I think people need to keep in mind that this doesn't affect every clothing item. Daz has already stated that they don't have issues with things like a pair of shorts, boots, etc. Only with things like the body suit that totally cover the figure's body." I'll grant that, but the question has already been raised, what about a pants and shirt set? All one has to do is take some pants and a shirt and that'll cover the body. That may be more useful for emulating Vicki's breast morphs than creating super heroes, but it's STILL circumventing the V2/M2/etc purchase, isn't it? I just don't see this as an ideal solution, but as one that'll annoy customers. depakotez: I know you didn't make the policy, and believe me, I'm very appreciative that you and others are looking for alternative solutions. Heck, I hadn't thought of using objmover. However, I just think the solution is NOT to be found within adding steps or making things more difficult for the customer, but to adopt a reasonable and logical policy that doesn't presume to own things they have no right to. We're generally law-abiding folks and will do things in good faith, but there's a point where someone can overstep their boundries. A final "however" to this, I think DAZ will come up with a good solution. They've done so in the past, but this just seems a little...different. Perhaps I'll go back to lurking, but I wanted to be sure I had my say on this one.

Ok, I've been looking over this, and pretty much any other thread involving this issue, and I'm gonna throw my two cents in, then slip back into the shadows: If this goes through, and I'm required to use OBJaction Mover to decode clothing so I can use it on Mike or Vicky 2, I'm going to make the process that much easier... I'm not going to make the purchase. I purchased Mike 2, I purchased Victoria 2. I went through long periods of headache and aggravation because the majority of the new morphs were useless unless I wanted naked characters. Clothing was a waste of time. Little if anything was made specifically to fit the new morph capability. Along came Tailor...a vrekkin GODSEND program, which I praise each and every time I use it. Now I can make nearly any clothing item work with the Millenium 2's, and I can focus on my art. I already deal with numerous issues every time I download an item, free or purchased. A sampling of the list: 1. Commercial use or not? 2. Oddball file locations (MAT files as CM2, for example) made necessary by Poser's limitations. 3. Getting the files where I want them in my libraries, not necessarily where the item creator put them. Now you're telling me that this 'solution' is going to add the NECESSITY to use OBJaction Mover to decode the files before I can even assess items 2 and 3 on the list? No thanks. And as far as this not affecting every clothing item? It's either got to affect them all, or none. This isn't a buffet, it's a business policy. That policy is going to affect the time it takes for creators to get their work approved, which in turn is going to affect the cost of the items. My art is expensive enough to create as it is. I've poured thousands of dollars into the programs and add-ons I use to create my art. I support the creators of the wonderful tools I've added to my creative palette, both with my buying dollar, and with my word-of-mouth advertising to friends in the art community. As whoopdat said, One of the first rules of commerce: Don't annoy the customer. This 'solution' would annoy me out of being a customer. And as Stan Lee says: "Nuff said." CT fades back into the shadows...

I've been in talks with Chad at DAZ, and am now working with Depa3D to develop a utility that will be freely available to the community and will have the blessing of DAZ.

I forsee a potential technical problem with this approach. Victoria 2 Reduced Resolution is designed to wear Victoria's clothes. If clothing morphs are encrypted using a full-res Victoria mesh as the seed file, people who own Victoria 2 Reduced Resolution, but not Victoria 2, will not be able to decrypt them. You'd need two separate versions of the distributable files, one encrypted for Victoria 2 owners, the other for Victoria 2 Reduced Resolution owners.

Good point, LD. I didn't think of that one.

I didn't either. Good one... Tom

rcook: "I've been in talks with Chad at DAZ, and am now working with Depa3D to develop a utility that will be freely available to the community and will have the blessing of DAZ." Great. Can I ask what it's for? Something along these lines? I sure hope not. And Little Dragon raised another interesting point with the lo-res models. Something else I'd not thought of.... (So much for lurking. I'll try. Really, I'll try.)

With my understanding, if a piece of clothing is supposed to require Victoria to use, having Victoria 2 Reduced Resolution doesn't qualify anyway. You have to have purchased Victoria to use the piece of clothing. Am I missing something?

Just a little, the clothing that fits on V2 will fit on V2Lo and they share morphs. So an item created with morphs that would work with V2 will work with V2Lo's morphs as well. So there, unless there is a solution, would require two versions. One for lo res V2 and another for standard v2 Tom

When you pay for Vic 2 reduced resolution, you supposedly get all the advantages of Vic 2 - just at a reduced resolution. She takes the same clothes, takes the same textures, takes the same morph poses and face poses etc. There is absolutely no difference between a clothing item with morphs to fit Vic 2 and a clothing item with morphs to fit Vic 2 LoRes.

Ah, ok. I think I understand now. Yeah, seems like there would have to be two versions distributed, unless I can find a way to use multiple "key" files. Maybe by packaging both distributions into the same encoded file. Hmmm... maybe.

Why is everyone ignoring the basic issue? You're all putting the cart before the horse. The real issue is this: Tailor doesn't copy morphs, it approximates them. The end result is not the same morph as what is on the DAZ figure. I could do the same thing with magnets and be on the moral high ground. Tailor simply does this with clever code rather than magnets. It seems to me that DAZ has no business telling anyone what to do with the Results of Tailor, as per the wishes of Codetwister. And by the way, the DAZ morphs are better looking. Anyone trying to use Tailor to create false morphs to simulate Mike 2 is going to have a crappy looking model. These are not the people who were going to buy Mike/Vicky 2 anyway, no sales are lost over crappy approximation morphs. And what's final is that DAZ has no ground to stand on to make these demands. The morphs tailor creates are not there's just approximate shape which one can do in 3dsmax, Rhino, or within poser itself with magnets. This is a non-issue and DAZ are just making themselves look bad IMO. -WTB

This would be a situation where you require the ability to unlock with either key file but don't need both. I can think of other situations where it would be useful to require two keyfiles both of which must be present to unlock the encrypted file. That's more for obj distribution though.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe what you're suggesting. Let me explain. 1.) Mover is designed to ensure that someone can't use a derivitive character without owning the original character. 2.) Mover is not about morphs. It is about the obj file that goes with a cr2 file. 3.) Tailor is about morphs. Tailor won't work without the original clothing item... therefore Mover is not needed. If Tailor produced clothes that worked without the original obj file, then Mover would be appropriate. 4.) DAZ's objection to distribution of Tailored clothes is that people would be able to take the morphs from the clothes, and apply them to Mike 1. Mike 1 would either look like Mike 2 in the body suit, or maybe someone could transfer the morphs directly to Mike 1. It was a nice try, but Mover just won't solve this problem. Beyond that, tell me, do Mike 1 & Mike 2 have different geometries? How about Vicky 1 & 2? How about the low-res vs the hi-res versions? It sounds like someone neglected to check some of the more essential or basic facts before jumping on the Mover bandwagon. Mover is not the right choice here.

Ron, If you would just check the tutorial you'll see that mover does indeed encode the altered CR2 file. Please, check all the relevant and essential information before assuming I didn't :) I'm not jumping on a bandwagon here. The facts are simple, Mover will encode a text file using any text file as a seed or key file. It just has to be named "OBJ" in it's version. So if you take any text file and change it's extension to OBJ it can be encoded with any other file including real OBJs. Been tested, and RCook and I are now working on an app that will just encode without worrying about file extensions. Thus eliminating steps and making it all easier for the end user. Tom

Why is DAZ going through all this in the first place if the theoretical Poser 5 is going to make The Tailor obsolete anyway?