ok we're against warez here. today in the Poser Forum Bushi closed a request for help on a tool to extract a mesh from a game to use in Poser. Quite right. This was an incorrect use of copyrighted material. But the question is, where do you all draw the line? we have Space Marines ((c) Games Workshop), Superman ((c) DC Comics), Star Wars chars, Xfiles Actors, Game chars from FF and others... they are all copyrighted materials. so what is the definition on this?

I think the difference is that superheroes, like from 3dcc, are created from scratch, not extracted from any game itself.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=811266

umm, if you create superman from scratch, you are still stepping on intellectual copyright, ESPECIALLY if you call him "Superman" and he has the same colour scheme and costume. things are a little twisted on this site Kai with all the double standards, you'll get used to it eventually.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12395&Form.ShowMessage=792014

the reason why I asked is thus I would like to make a hi-res version of some game models, specifically the ones from Homeworld. (the Taidan fighter and scout). but, according to the judgement in the thread mentioned above, extracting the homeworld meshes to use as a reference base for a hires version would make me a warezman, and if I posted the models on here, (which I was planning todo as a poser version for free), i would be banned. Yet, ppl do this all the time to make game mods... hence my confusion.

I've contacted the admin people that handle the copyright questions on Renderosity. Either they will drop by and add some verbage or they will give the info to pass along here. Anyway, I hope to get you some definitive answers to your questions shortly.

I saw the original thread, and I read it to mean the guy wanted to extract it for his own use. I thought that was okay? Or did I miss something?

paranoia, or something much like it.

@Kaibach - I'd guess it would come down to what you did with the 'reference base'. If you're using it just as a reference and building completely new meshes without using any of the original geometry I think you'd be OK. I'd feel more comfortable though if we wait on a definitive word from the copyright admins. @leather-guy - The situation is analogous to someone asking where they could get the .obj file for Vicky2 'for their own use'. They'd still have to convert the .obj to a figure but under the TOS it would still be considered a warez request. @Slynky - Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean you don't have real enemies. ;)

Guess I did miss something, I had read it that he had the game, and was asking what software he could use that would extract a character file - guess I don't know enough about computer games :-)) (Haven't played one since '87) Sorry to confuse things...

Hrm... this is a bit odd, actually... It sort of comes down to the game developer's call. Here's how it breaks down: The game's publisher or developer owns all rights to the models, textures, etc. So, technically, it's copyright infringement to take them and redistribute them in any form, whether your making money on it or not... but... Most game's publishers don't care. In fact, it's good press for their game to have modifications for their game in circulation. When I helped with modding the Bioware games, we actually got support from Bioware and Black Isle, who would often times look over our works before we released them to fix any problems we encountered... I've heard similar stories from the teams that build mods for Quake, Half-Life, etc. So really, extracting the model from the game isn't copyright infringement ( at least not an infringement that would ever get prosecuted ). Redistributing the mesh/texture is, but the game company likely wouldn't care. Usually, the individual company's site will maintain an FAQ with how to extract these models, and what's ok. As far as I know, most don't care as long as you're not trying to reverse engineer the game engine, or make money off of their hard work. I hope that clears some of this up. Paul

Companies who create and market strong visual characters and objects, like from comic books, movies, TV-series and games and even novels might be able to stop hobbyists from "copying" thier designs, but that won't be a smart move from them: The main reason they produce theese things is to make money, either in direct way through thier product, or through secondary ways, like merchandising or licences for other products. To make money this way, there has to be a strong interest in them in the market. So they need good pr in the public, and a strong fanbase. Stopping people from creating thier own views like 3d models and images and fan stories and the like would only give bad pr and a lot of frustrated former fans. So some might even encourage fans to do thier own thing, as long as it isn't comercial. Such work might even give them new ideas, and happy fans are more willing to shell out more money for products. So most companies might be happy to see fan products, even if they don't admit it.

thanks for the clarification :) ok.. thats one Taidan Scout and Fighter to go... now.. to get the meshes out.. they will be completly new once completed, (the game meshes are far to low poly for my needs) on a related note - ILM actively allow ppl to model their stuff so long as it's not charged for.. they get really annoyed if ppl charge tho... thanks again :)

Very interesting. If you folks could come up with a list of game makers that allow user modeling and links to their policies on user modeling, I'd pass it around to the other mods. It would help a lot when questions like this one come up. You could either IM it to me or send it direct to: bushi@velocitus.net :)

Try the various Quake and Half Life sites, Bushi... they're one of the largest fan bases for user created mods, and modification of in game meshes and models. Or, actualy, Id software is located here in Dallas, and they're in the book. A call to John Carmack by one of the copyright admins could get a definitive answer on at least Id's policies [makers of Quake II, Doom, Quake II, and the owners of the liscence of the engine that a lot of other games use] Odd are pretty good that Carmack would only have a problem with it if someone was extracting the game models and skins for alteration and resale... likewise for Valve [half-life] and Sierra [Nascar and a majority of other racing games with a huge user mod base] Game modeling and game content modification was one of the main design thrusts behind Milkshape and several other similar tools. Including several off-the shelf tools such as Virtus's Quake Level maker, produced with Id liscencing. That would have been the key question on that one post: "What use are you going to make of it?" If he was extracting a model for use in personal or "fan art" imagery, a majority of gaming companies wouldn't see an issue. I'm not completely speaking out of my hat on this - i'm speaking from the perspective of someone who was heavily involved in PlanetQuake and numerous other gaming mods sites over the years, and as a former tester and developer of level mods. Also as someone who'd modded at gaming sites in the past [pre-graphics site background] where this question came up over and over and had to be addressed. Gaming sites don't tolerate warez any more than Rosity does - they can't for the same reasons Rosity can not.

There was supposed to be another "I" in the second "Quake II" to make that "Quake III". Sorry. ;]

So what happened to Hollister Man? The thread is still locked. Did he receive an official warning? Was he BANNED?!? If so, it needs to be undone. He merely asked what was apparently an innocent question, only to be slapped in the face and have his reputation damaged.

Public Apology? I've been following the Quake mod community for ages too...ever since the first Quake, and I had internet access. Actually, ID software got the idea from their previous game series, Doom, when people cracked open the .wad files and started to modify the gameplay and graphics. Ever wonder why Quake was so much easier to modify? Because that was ID's big, no, HUGE, risky idea. They released the game and made it so easy to extract models and other media, so that the community at large could modify the game. That was one gimmick behind the game. They released the code even so that people could modify the game further. All this customizability made the game much more interesting, and sparked interest. People making new models were one of the reasons Quake was a huge success, and you can bet the company was just sitting back enjoying it. Because to use all these new mods and etcetera, you had to BUY their product. (well, not really, but that was back before the warez scene was so easy to access) Point is (since I digressed alot): Most game companies support individuals messing with their games' media, because it creates interest. Some people buy games on a 'wait and see' basis, and watch to see if the mod community will pounce on the game or not. Game makers know this, and use it to their best. Side note: If you've ever done low-polygon modelling, try visitng some game sites and advertising your skills, especially in older gaming communities...they really need artists :)

Additional side note to WyldeSnakes: Show off you medium to highpoly skills and animtion talents while/in addition to the low poly modeling - even the "amateur" and user created mods and game designs often have a need for cutscene and into/closing animations and video. Might not pay anything, but if you can get a rep for doing good work on those in the user mod areas, it can open doors and get you noticed elsewhere - people assodiated with Valve, Id and other of the gaming companies do browse boards and view mods connected to their games & products. Never, ever hurts to have quality work connected to a companies products and business on your portfolio CD when you go to visit: it shows them that you were interested enough to research their needs and interests.