this was mentioned over at 3dcommune but I thought it should be mentioned here as well. http://home.hetnet.nl/~galaxym59/index5.html that's the link if anyone reconises their freebies on there sending an email to the isp would help. note to newbies : please do not download anything from the site mentioned. Rob

Thanks for the info, c1rcle. I see in the 3Dcommune forum that measures are already by sending copyright infringement complaints to their ISP. I also noted that the site in question is a member of the Renderosity Webring (member no 1401). Is there a way for Renderosity to throw them out of the webring?

Aya, he's got a lot. I see things from (what I believe to be) Sams3d... Lannie's and 3dExtra...

Attached Link: http://www.brycemania.de

I wrote him a mail to delete the direct links to the zip-files. Hope this will be help.

. <====== 'nough said. Sorry for the 'bot notification. Have a good day.

Did anyone stop and consider that just maybe English is not his native language and he doesn't even know what he's doing is wrong? I only had that thought because the site is in German, maybe he's 14

Going back into lurk mode, things haven't changed

whether he doesnt know he is wrong or not isnt exactly relevant at the point, he is still wrong. The only way to make him aware of that problem is correct him, at which I say BURN. Besides, if your savvy enough to make a sight and direct link to files, you should be smart enough to know that your not supposed to do it.

Yes, I see some of ours are also there, Markus, where did you email him, I can't seem to find his address, could you assist...thanks - Sharen

You can contact him PRIVATELY first. You don't have to embarass/humiliate someone as a first choice of action.

That is fine but how do I contact him....which I would do anyway, just want to contact him. Sharen

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12387&Form.ShowMessage=802104

@ movida: Its not german, it`s dutch. @SAMS3D: If you go the index site: http://home.hetnet.nl/~galaxym59/ you will find a gif for e-mails.

Thank you very much, I just emailed him....do you think he speaks english? Will he understand what I said, I wonder? Sharen

He gives a pic of the model, a link to the model, a link to the website that hosts the model. He is giving credit (and advertising) to the source for the model. He is doing nothing but increasing your website traffic. I honestly feel you guys are going off half cocked and will probably get his isp mad at him when he is only helping you. Jeez........ copyright infringement is if he uses your artwork and claims it to be his. If you didn't want your links advertised you shouldn't a put em on the web. I have no idea who this kid is, but I just realized how big a joik you guys can be.

sorry Markus, I'm not that familiar with languages. I just felt bad for the guy (at this point anyway). Thanks for the correction s

I don't feel at all sorry for him and I'm sure he knows it's wrong. Tired of people making excuses for thieves, next someone will pop up with "oh he was abused as a kid and can't help himself". Marque

Hey Markus....Rutger Hauer is Dutch isn't he? OMG!!!!! Maybe I was at Rugter Hauers' site....sigh....

I saw an image in the poser gallery the other day that said "The texture is Vicky, The model is so and so, the room is a download by Daz, the coffee pot is by so and so, the blah blah blah" ... nobody claimed copyright infringement because 1. the guy gave credit where it was due, 2. the guy obviously couldn't model on his own and his concept of poser art was in how all these things were put together. Nobody claimed that guy was a thief. Giving credit for sources is not stealing. Even in the case of poser 'artists' who use nothing but downloaded items and never model (if you can call that art) they are NOT stealing. And neither is this kid.

Chad100670: Links to your website aren't always a good thing. Sometimes you want the links to generate traffic, but in other cases it's just a hobby and the owner doesn't want to pay for all that bandwidth that results from "hotlinking." That increased transfer can get VERY expensive.

And it's also nice to ask permission first. Marque

chad100670 - just so you know he DOES NOT give a link to our web site, he DOES NOT give a link to the model and he gives a copy of our picture, which isn't that great, because it is a copy of a gif. But just so you know we got not credit at all. So what do we do know? Sharen

I mean what do we do now? Sharen

Just to set the record straight I haven't named him just his site, & he deserves to be shamed anyway. He's linking directly to the files without permission which is wrong, it only takes a quick trip to the nearest translation site with a readme for him to be able to understand he is seriously going to get his ass kicked for doing what he's doing. Rob

Some cheese with that whine Rob? If I had a server I'd mirror his site just to ............ never mind, I'm out of this arguement. The kid aint doin nothing wrong. (sic)

A nice bit of Brie thanks chad :p

lmao! :-)

Sharen get in touch either with him or his ISP, if the latter our past experiences have shown the isp will close the site about 5 minutes after they read your email......Steve

Wouldn't it be simpler for Sharen to just rename the file on her server? His link would be dead and you wouldn't be playing 'tattle tale'

Yeh i guess it would but then again why should he get away with ripping her off.....Steve

Well... I was planning an INDEX site that listed the models available (by category or subject) and refered the user to the main page of that website. I was counting on the merchants and people who put things up for download to give me permission and a list of their inventory. This to counter-act or to complete (depends on your pt of view)the Poser Paradise idea. So that if someone is looking for ,lets say: an umbrella, he can go to the index site and search for "umbrella" and get a listing of all the models available (commercial or non-commercial) and use the link beside the listing to get to the main page of the site where the model can be found. No pictures of any of the models would be provided, and no adverts allowed. I'm going to have to rethink this.

Q it sounds good what you're suggesting, but this guy is linking direct to the files themselves. Rob

Yes, thank you Steve, if I don't here from him soon, I will go and speak with the server. And chad100670 let me ask you a question, let's say as the creator of the model we decide that the free models have become to many, and we decide to archive them and then sell them at a later date, how are we suppose to make up for the loss if someone has taken our models and put them on their site for anyone to use. You see this has already happened to us, and we would really prefer that if someone wants to host our models that are free, we decide which ones and then mark them so that those are now at a loss to us and go out to everyone, never any changes to them or updates etc. Do you see why we would prefer to have them at least ask us first? Sharen

Yup, few people will object if you link to their main page, it's the direct linking they might have a problem with.

Q just wondering how you're going to keep up to date with it all tho, just looking at the freestuff here on rosity, there's a new item every few minutes.

If I give away something, it becomes the property of the person I gave it to. period. If I sell a painting to you I don't complain about where you hang it. I don't complain about who you show it to, or sell it to, or give it to. If you want to keep something as yours, don't give it away. If you want to control who gets it, send it to that person directly, don't post it on the web. Do I complain when one of my drawings or paintings gets posted to a newsgroup or a website? only if someone erases my signature and puts their own in. (hasn't happened yet) Do you also complain about how your models are used? let's say someone uses your model in an obscene image.. in an image that you would be totally opposed to.. do you have any say so in that? no, because you gave it away. Also, why cut the guys throat because one model's owner is peeved? perhaps there are ten people whose models appear on that page who appreciate the link..... perhaps not..... but should the guys entire website be taken down when you could easily remove that one model from your end. You guys remind me of the commercially obsessed individuals who want to charge for porn that is and has been free and floating around on the net for years. If I downloaded an image 50 times from newsgroups since 1995 I certainly don't want to pay some webmaster or avs to see it again. hrrrmmmph. If it bothers you that your model is floating around the net you shouldn't have put it there to begin with. The internet is about "free exchange of information" ... and information includes 3d models. Don't publish something as a "free" item if it's not free!

jchimim is correct, I would have not problem with him linking to our site. Chad100670 to answer your question (statement) to the best of my ability, Daz gives a free model away everyweek, then the next week it is pulled and then sold, why because it belongs to them and they have that right. I am saying is those who come to our site and take a model we offer for free, of course they have the right to do what they want with it, and we never said there were any restrictions to that, but if WE choose to take some of OUR free models away at a later time, after it has been around for others to take, WE have that right, and if WE decided to then archive them and then sell them that also is OUR right, but if someone has them on their site, like ours are on his site, and he did not ask permission, then WE now have lost our rights to do with our models what we will. All he had to do was ask us before he took them, we have given other's the right to have them on their sites after we were politely asked. He has not asked. Sharen

And an artist or owner DOES have the right to determine how intelectual property is used. If you don't believe that, buy a DVD movie, copy it, then start selling the copies.

and alson, you say "Also, why cut the guys throat because one model's owner is peeved?" I don't recall cutting his throat, as a merchant I feel by contacting him directly was the right approch, I will wait till I hear from him and then him and I will discuss it privatly. Sharen What this gentleman did was incorrect, you don't do things like this without asking.

Oh by the way, sorry for the incorrect spelling of some words, poor example. Sharen

I also have seen some of my work displayed on sites without my permission. I figured it was public domain. However when I was told that one of my photographs was being used as a background for a pornsite, I had him shut down in less than a week. You do control some aspects of how your work is displayed. There is a moral aspect to this sort of thing. Rob, Anything that is hosted on a website, not in freestuff (it after all has its own search engine)could be referenced on the Index site. The creator would need only email me with the details. I would try and update once a day. I hadn't considered the increase trafic that this might bring to a hobbyest and the possible $ question. I'm going to have to rethink this and perhaps wait and see what the Poser Paradise idea is all about. If merchants are interested in this sort of free service they can IM me. Don't expect a fancy site. This should be a quick access and on to buiseness type of thing. Anyways, we'll see. Take care. Q PS: Sharen I agree with your point of view.

Chad as far as i can see this isn't about a person giving a model away (which i disagree with you about too) its about a person linking to another site and stealing bandwidth which cost money....lets try and put this into perspective, if a person puts a model up for free on his website and he/she has a 1GB limit per month then has to pay for every MB beyond that then the more sites linking to the files the more its going to cost..Steve

It falls under internet protical. You don't direct link to people's pictures or files because everyone knows it drains their bandwidth. You link to their site. As much as people would like to think the internet is rule free... it's not.

Yup, hosting companies may charge as much as $20 per gig if you exceed, and $5-$10 is not uncommon.

Wow - what a discussion. It makes me feel that I need to comment, and I'd like to start doing so by mentioning a parallel case. A Danish News-service was successfully brought to court by the Danish Association of Newspaper Publishers. The case concerned exactly the same thing we discuss here: Deep links. The news-service operated on a subscriber basis, providing a search service, which gave the customers a direct access to those pages in the newspapers sites which had their interest. It is important to be aware that the service only linked to public pages of the newspapers, not subscriber-only. The newspapers on their side demanded that the news service be prohbibted from posting any deep links to their news sites as it potentially decreased advertising revenue. The newspapers won the case with the argument that the newsservice was making money through their deep links. If the newsservice had been free of charge, the deep linking would, by implication, have been OK. However, this was not specifically stated. At the same time, a ruling in an American court has established that, according to American copyright law, deep linking is OK. This ruling concerned two businesses, Ticketmaster and Ticket.com. The former contended that Ticket.com was doing something illegal by deep linking to Ticketmasters site, but they lost the case. These are the links to the Danish case: http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51887,00.html http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/776542.asp#BODY and to the Travelmaster case: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,35306,00.html It seems clear from these two rulings that deep links to other webpages are definitely OK if you are not making money on the venture. It might even be OK if you are running a business. Now to our Dutch webpage: What he is doing is essentially deep links. He is not claiming copyright. He clearly states the name of the provider in most cases. The only place I can see a problem is on the texture pages, where the origin can be a bit unclear. He could have asked if the linking was OK, but he is, by all indications, not doing anything illegal. There is another aspect of this deep-link discussion, which is of much more principal nature, and that concerns the very nature of free information on the internet. I have in this post used 3 deep links. If you glance through this forum, you will find almost exclusively deep links. I daresay that if I had asked for a model of a mailbox, someone would most likely have answered me with a deep link. If deep links become illegal, we can only link to the main page of any site, and information will slowly grind to a halt. Now that is a worrysome prospect in my not so very humble opinion. Those of you, who are miffed about your models appearing on the dutch site or are afraid of your bandwidth, write to the guy and ask him to remove them. Judging from the character of the site, he will most probably be happy to comply. But unless you specifically state in your pages that deep links are not acceptable, I cannot see any infringement issues in this business at all.

I guess the only thing that really bothers me is that when my bandwidth is stretched to it's limit, my web server shuts me down, then I can't open up again until I pay the extra amount or wait it out. So it will affect me directly, I don't think that is fair. Sharen PS: like I said I will speak with him directly and privatly and then it will be over for today.

The internet is about "free exchange of information" ... and information includes 3d models. Don't publish something as a "free" item if it's not free! The battle cry of the uneducated. The internet allows us to exchange information with the greatest of ease, but it does not allow for the FREE exchange of that information unless the copyright owner allows for it. The creator has the right to say how, when and in what for their creations may be shared, sold or transmitted. If they don't want person x offering their files for download on person x's pages that is their right. Nothing about the internet changes that, except for the greedy or immoral nature of the people RECIEVING that information. As for bandwidth theft. Two years ago it wasn't a big deal as bandwidth was essentially free. Now providers keep track of how much is used and a cost is assigned. Many ISP's are currently considering charging the user, for the bandwidth they use. For those of us who have been paying for the bandwidth on the sites we host, we have the right to control who may use the bandwidth we pay for.

I Knew the site . its one of the only in Dutch language . And I always saw it as links to other sites (yours in this case) I didnt notice the problem in the first place aswell. Maybe because here almost all webspace is free. So linking and give credit is usually enough. It would have been politer to ask first though. Regards Myske

Well, putting up a link to a site is one thing...but linking directly to files within that site is bandwidth stealing plain and simple. If he truly wanted to drive traffic to their sites, he would have just used a link, it looks like he wants the traffic to stay on his site, so he links directly to the files so no one has to visit the other sites, and doesn't have to worry about his bandwidth getting used for the downloads. Sorry, that's just plain wrong. Pendy

chad100670, there is nothing wrong with him showing the models and then giving a link to the website, but he is direct linking to the files which has always been considered bandwidth stealing unless he had permission from the owner of the site. Cannot blame them as I would be upset too. This bypasses their website and ends up being a free fileserver for him. Hope he is able to be stopped. This is the kind of thing that causes alot of good modellers who give their stuff for free to stop doing so.

Battlecry of the uneducated? I have a degree. Copyright owner? Nope. When someone gives away a work, it is considered in the public domain. It would be a different case if the model were stolen from a site, but the models are given away, i.e. placed in public domain. Giving away a model and placing it in the "Free Stuff" category of downloads is making a clear statement that it is public domain. You insist on complaining about bandwidth... would you be happier if he actually placed the model on HIS site for download? No? Then bandwidth is not your issue. You are only using that as a crutch. As for the arguement.. "what if I want to offer it for free this week and sell it next week?"... Well, you gave it away. By placing it in the public domain you can sure as heck sell it, but you can't claim exclusive rights to something you gave up exclusive rights to. Daz gives away their free models... but when they pull them off their site and offer them on CD they don't expect you to delete your copy that you downloaded for free, and then run out and ask you to erase the image of their model from all of your renderings. Do they? It's simple, if you want to sell something, sell it. If you want exclusive rights to something, don't label it "FREE STUFF!" - As far as the news example above - Fair Use laws should cover that in the United States - Newspapers regularly run stories written by other papers without permission and are basically immune from copyright laws. Newspapers also can run anyone's photograph without their permission in reporting, as long as their stories are not slander or libel. It's an extension of Freedom of the Press (First and Fourteenth amendments of the US constitution) If I do a painting or take a photograph that I don't want passed around on the net, I take the common sense approach and don't post it. I think the "Battlecry of the uneducated" is more likely some phrase originating in some pro-censorship thought legislating fiasco such as moralityinmedia or in our current republican-led Orwellian administrations proclivity to legislate free thought, free trade, and free exchange of information.