Well... I admit I hoped that CuriousLabs could do it right for once for European customers... that things could finally change for us here. No way I have to see. European users are still "B-class" Poser users for CuriousLabs. Doesn't matter that all financial surveys show that the power of purchase of European money is not even comparable to that of US$. CuriousLabs still thinks that the US users are the users to take care of, and the European users are the rich and wealthy idiots to be abused and neglected. Yes, abused. Because a price recharge from $329 (US) to $489 (Europe) is something that I would consider excessive even if it was applied by a third party reseller. Being it applied by the producing company itself, I do not consider it anything else than an insult. Yes, an insult, because there is NO reason WHATSOEVER for a price recharge of $160 on a total of 329 to be applied. There is no shipping cost excuses or VAT excuses that can justify such an huge price increase when there is no reseller implied. The only explanation is that the US user base is the A-class user base to be pleased with low prices and offers, while the European user base is the B-class user base that is good to get back some of the money that was invested in promoting Poser5 to the US users. Shame. Shame again. As an European user I feel discriminated and have lost all faith in CuriousLabs now. P.S. why here they don't even offer pre-ordering for updates?

I posted this in a similar thread and therefor copy it: Curious Labs and EGISYS jointly established the worldwide pricing system. The result was that we are selling Poser 5 to a similar price to the distribution/distributors worldwide (USA, ASIA, EUROPE, AFRICA,...). Due to currency risks we had to built in a "security zone" (you might remember the time when 1 Euro was only 86 US Cents) of around 7%. The sales prices in the European countries are established by the distribution channels finally and therefor are a matter of competition. In Germany e.g. there are already offers of far less than 489 + VAT. Under European law it is simply illegal to try to enforce similar pircing - there is no such thing like price maintenance in the software market. The distributors are more important in Europe than in the US if it comes to support, delivery and availabilty of software products. Only a small part of software sales in Europe are direct/mailorder sales. Without distributors it would be undoable for a company like us to deliver product and give support to customers that are speaking Finnish, Turkish, French, Spanish, Italian, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, ....and to leave Europe: Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Hindu, .... This problem exists not only with software products in Europe, e.g. I can buy a Mercedes in Denmark up to 30% cheaper than in Stuttgart, Germany, where the car is manufactured... and it is cheaper in the USA as well. I assure you that our commitment to Europe and the European customers is very strong and together with our partners we hope to strengthen our European community. I hope that I was able to explain some of the reasons and give some answers although Im not a native English speaker. Thanks for your ongoing support for Poser. Wolfgang EGISYS AG P.S.: Of course we will offer preordering of updates, but due to some technical hickups in the European Webshop we are 1-2 days late - and you will see prices which should comfort you more.

Orio That's a lot of utter bollocks! mac

Mac wrote: "That's a lot of utter bollocks!" Dear Mac, thanks for your fine manners. You're a gentleman. I am though more interested in the facts than I am in your manners. So let me show you a few facts: Price increase percentage from US to EU : + 48 % without VAT + 78 % incl. VAT (Italian) "Security zone" percentage applied by producers: 7% price difference without VAT after "security zone" applied: + 41 % Now let's consider this + 41% - There is no reseller share to pay, because it's the producing company which distributes through their EU web store; - There is no VAT to be considered, because the price difference of +48 is calculated without VAT So where does this +41 come from? It is equivalent to US$ 137. Do I have to assume that I as private person can get a priority expedited shipping from the US for about US$50, and CuriousLabs/Egisys as a company, can not get a better deal than US$ 137 for shipping of each copy of Poser 5? OF course not. This would be absurde. Now EVEN IF CL/Egisys payed the same price as a private user for shipping (which is ridiculously impossible), there would STILL be a +87 price increase already calculated net of security zone, non-existent shares, shipping and taxes. Dear Mac: yours are a couple of words. Those above, are facts. - Orio

Wolfgang: Thanks for replying. I have replied in that thread to your message. Also my reply above to Mac includes the "core facts". - Orio

As an additional note, I'd like to mention DAZ, who is promoting Mimic at $48 these days. They allow European users to buy from their site and ALL additional expense for an European user is the shipping charge, which can be as cheap as the $13 required for standard shipping (and customs of course). No security zone 7% addition, no mysterious $137 (for a $160 total) price increase. Now, THAT'S how to be REALLY "strongly committed" to European users - IMHO of course. It comes without saying that I am very pleased to be a faithful and returning DAZ customer, and that I'll be surely buying Mimic from them. - Orio

Orio: You are welcome. I think I missed to explain one point: The main distribution channel in Europe are distributors. They are covering over 90% of our current sales and covering regions and market segments we could never reach with a direct sales channel. Therefor we are not competing pricewise with them in our webshop - most of the time the distribution prices are lower than ours. Please wait for the pricing on the upgrades (it is only 2 days away): here we are offering your suggested "direct channel" because we wanted to support our existing userbase. And if you apply your "fact sheet" to the upgrade prices I hope you will get a completely different picture. If not, you are free to hammer on us again. We think that the best way to develop the European market is together with distributors - and we think there is a lot of potential here in Europe - but if we are wrong - there is no way that we can miss it thanks to the community. Wolfgang

Attached Link: Reiss Studio

Well Oreo, since you're reposting all your information here in a new thread, we'd better post all the responses as well. By the way, I think you're way off base here. Wolfgang has already stated that they sell to all the distributers (USA, EUROPE, AFRICA, etc...) at basically the same price! if there is price gouging, it is most likely by your distributer. the US proce is $549!!! far more than the price of EUR 489 which you are repeatedly bringing up. The us distributers are all selling for < $400 because that is what the competition dictates, and the street price are supposed to be. here's my original reply to you from the other thread: Attached Link: Reiss Studio Orio, you say: "One thing, is to have an announced price and a street price that is more or less determined by the same company (i.e. the producers) in the same country of origin. A whole different matter alltogether is to have an announced price and a street price determined by third party distributors." If you look at Wolfgang's e-mail, I think he's saying that it's ILLEGAL in europe to enforce a suggested street price. You can also read from wolfgang's post that ALL basically the distributers in USA and EUROPE are getting basically the SAME price! in the US the main program's price is $549!!! as you point out, even with the translation rates this is MORE than the european price of EUR 489. He also says that just like USA distributers, European distributers are starting to promote the lower prices. It also sounds like the upgrade you'll be able to get won't go through the distributer that you don't like (Pico) and it seems like he's hinting that it will be at a reasonable price

Wolfgang said: 1)"it would be undoable for a company like us to deliver product and give support to customers that are speaking Finnish, Turkish, French, Spanish, Italian, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish". Well, I can't speak for the other languages but working in the IT sector myself I still have yet to meet a Norwegian, Swedish or Dane that was computer literate but couldn't read, write and speak English fluently. Also I know of only one distributor of Poser in this country(where's the competition?) and I'd say probablly 99 percent of the people posting in this forum is more knowledgeable in Poser matters than they are. 2)"Only a small part of software sales in Europe are direct/mailorder sales." I've got CL boxed version of Poser 4 and when I bought it there was no direct/mailorder sales to Europe, and it wasn't available for a long time. So please don't play with statistics. Wolfgang I don't want to sound too harsh but the impression I got from your post is that the distributors are more important than your customers. Though I do live in Norway I will not be buying my upgrade through my local distributor or any other European distributor. I will simply go through certain channels to get it from the US, and if any of my other Scandinavian friends want it I will help them get it from there to. The end result is the distributor here is not going to make 1 kroner off of me because of the over 100% markup that is typical for software in this country. Buying the upgrade here would simply be foolish.

Orio: Since DAZ is charging you in USD, they don't have to compensate for currecny exchange rates - you do. Imagine two months from now an exchange rate of 1 USD = 2 EUR (pure fiction, I hope), Mimic will suddenly cost twice as much for you, where the Poser price will remain the same.

Attached Link: http://www.gamasutra.com/gdc2002/features/newell/newell_01.htm

OK, I'm game :) It's getting loud in here... :) Run a search on my name, and besides the usual invective, you will eventually come upon a similar thread to this one, where "Starlet" the US Curious Labs employee organising the US upgrade, says explicitly that thier pricing in Europe will be at a level so as *NOT* to compete with thier European distributors. Which I took to mean that I'll get it cheaper by *NOT* buying direct from them, (or Egi.sys) Where this leaves you for upgrade pricing I have no idea, but (idealy, you'd buy it retail, a get a mail-in rebate) I'm expecting to pay 260-270 Euro's, (or perhaps that should be, "they are expecting me to pay...") Now, depending on strength of feeling, if you really wanted to "hurt" CL/Egi.sys (financially) the best thing to do would be to wait a while and then buy from a discount club or shop. Why? I used to work in a computer shop, (in the UK) and generally speaking the shop has a 45% markup (retail) on the distributor price, and they too, have thier markup (<10%) on the price they buy wholesale from the manufacturer. The distributors make their money on volume. The shops bear the risk, as, generally speaking, they don't buy it on "Sale or Return" grounds, (unlike newspapers). Which is why there are such things as "bargain bins" because otherwise the shop bears the loss. Not the manufacturer. Not the distributor. So if you buy direct from the manufacturer, then they're getting around 50% more than they would if they sold to a distributor. This is especially true at the launch of the product when the demand is greatest. After the initial 2-3 weeks they make more selling in bulk, this is the classic "retail distribution model" the link will take you to a realted atricle on gamasutra.com, (free registration required) it's a games software developers website, or simply throw the phrase into google. Incidentally, it's why Dell make so much cash, they're big enough to do thier own distribution, and offer "value added" customisation, etc. and untill recently they *only* sold direct. I'm going to wait until Friday, see what the pricing is, and then do the math, chances are it'll work out cheaper to wait a couple of months, and I've got 2 new games on my cube, one on the PS2 and 5 on the PC (went home recently :) to keep me occupied until then :P later jb

Attached Link: Reiss Studio

Wolfgang said: "Please wait for the pricing on the upgrades (it is only 2 days away): here we are offering your suggested "direct channel" because we wanted to support our existing userbase. And if you apply your "fact sheet" to the upgrade prices I hope you will get a completely different picture." I know Wolfgang's apologized for his english, but doesn't this sound like he's saying that they will have a DIRECT channel for upgrade sales so you they can offere you a good price? and it seems like he's also saying that the rates will be comparable to the US version!

Wolfgang, sorry, but your weak excuses don't get any any better if you repost them. I don't need a distributor, i don't need a translation, i don't need any other or more support than any user in the USA. I buy products online at DAZ and pay the US-price with my creditcard in US $ - so noone needs a security zone of 7%. When there are any taxes or VAT i have to pay them myself anyway. I don't want any gifts or presents. The only thing i want is: When i buy a product online in the USA i want to pay the same price any US citizen would pay + shipping. There is no real cause for setting higher prices for Europeans. As a customer who bought Poser 3, Poser 4 and Poser ProPack I really hope that the upgrade will be available for Europeans at a fair price. We'll see. THX for listening.

I've got a question. there's all this talk of 'shipping boxes' why? companies like M$ etc ship one master and a set of plates / files for making the product here in the UK europe etc...

Mac wrote: "That's a lot of utter bollocks!" Orio wrote 'European users are still "B-class" Poser users for CuriousLabs' and 'CuriousLabs still thinks that the US users are the users to take care of, and the European users are the rich and wealthy idiots to be abused and neglected' and 'The only explanation is that the US user base is the A-class user base to be pleased with low prices and offers, while the European user base is the B-class user base that is good to get back some of the money that was invested in promoting Poser5 to the US users' Mac writes again "That's still a lot of utter bollocks!!" mac PS How do you get 48% + 20% = 78%? You're an amazing mathematician!

I have never seen a copy of Poser 4 for sale in Britain. Please direct me to the appropriate bargain bin because I'm still on Poser 3!

There's a shop in Kensington town, at the "poor" end of Church street, (can't remember the street name :) It sells second hand software and kit, I've seen Poser in there from time to time. I know that's a bit of a long shot, If you don't live in London, but it's the best I've got. later jb

Attached Link: https://www.curiouslabsshop.com/catalog.asp?ccode=gbr&type=PS4

If you have poser 3, you can upgrade to poser 4 at a really good price. The link is to the Curious Labs UK website. You'll find details there of all the different upgrades. I think if you have the free poser 3 magazine version, there's a special price for that too. Do it...poser 4 is SO much better! mac

The price for P5 is better, (relatively speaking :)