Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3922&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=340

This is a thread at PoserPros. The following is a quote from Dan Farr on page 18: "DAZ does have another issue with the Poser 5 EULA that as far as we know may not apply to others to the same degree. This is the non-compete aspect of the agreement. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, products such as Mimic or Victoria 3 could be legally argued to be in competition with Poser 5. This concerns us. Also at this time, so as not to appear ulterior in having expressed our genuine concern for the above issues, and so as not to invalidate related issues raised by others, we feel that we need to be publicly forthcoming on another item. Last January, at a point in time when we had a very uncertain view of the future of Poser and our involvement in its development we decided to move in a different direction. A direction that we feel will bring us closer to this great community and help it to grow. We are currently developing a rendering/animation tool. I will not go into the specifics of this application at this time but just say that in some ways it will be viewed as a competitive application to Poser."

Get it? "We are currently developing a rendering/animation tool." Now it all makes a lot more sense, eh?

Heh heh. Too bad he didn't post that before everyone pre-ordered P5, ne? ;]

I wonder if Daz feels shunned because CuriousLabs wanted to charge 30k per figure for the face room compatibility, in light of the fact that Daz was basically the major fuel behind Poser 4 with Mike and Vicky. This is just a thought, and in no way what actually happened, I have no idea. I'm not in the loop here. However, I will look forward to what Daz has coming though. Competition is a good thing in markets. Ben

Good thing CL protected their file formats huh?

This non-competition claus has me confused. I thought "cornering a market" was illegal in the United States. If competition is forbiden by an EULA, then wouldn't that make that section of the EULA invalid? And if DAZ creates a program that is competitive with Poser, yet has models that work with it as well... what kind of can-0-wyrms does that open up?!? I wish I knew a copyright lawyer. This nonsense is making my head hurt.

Well lets hope their copy protection isn't as restrictive as CL. Thanks for the good news x2000.

There was a falling out between DAZ and CL well before the 30K per figure thing. Long time back, I posted here asking whether it was "safe" to buy Vicky and Mike, or whether I would get screwed because they'd be included with Poser 5 if there ever was a Poser 5. Somebody from DAZ replied on that thread saying, "DAZ will not be creating the figures for Poser 5. Maybe you should ask Curious Labs who is." It was subtle, but it was clear that DAZ was not happy with CL. Other posts around here have made that point more evident. I'm not sure I've seen any indication that CL feels the same, other than DAZ being completely out of the loop rather than the partners they should have been in the creation of P5. (We'd have had a better program!) DAZ and CL staff members may deny this left and right if they choose, but it's too late to cover it up, and personally I'd rather them just tell us WHY these 2 companies whose survival appears to depend on one another have split. There's clearly no love lost between them. Phoenix (Who has been wondering about this topic for ages)

...I wonder if Daz feels shunned because CuriousLabs wanted to charge 30k per figure for the face room compatibility, in light of the fact that Daz was basically the major fuel behind Poser 4 with Mike and Vicky. I am inclined to accept Dan's statement at face value. In a world without Poser DAZ does not have a business. Given that they were concerned about Poser's continued existence, not to mention their position in such an existence, they had to make sure there was an alternative if they wished to survive. I guess you could say that this is the ultimate in "software backup"...grin... It is also a good business tactic for a forward thinking company. I'll definitely be entertaining thought of such a program provided it has a copy protection system with which I can coexist. - Jack

Lets me nice and have all programs load the same file formats. Like Adobe, Corel and Macromedia. Maybe something can be worked out. Can't we just all get along?

...Can't we just all get along? After reviewing a couple of thousand years of human history I'd have to say the answer is "no". Either that or "42". - Jack

"Good thing CL protected their file formats huh" Did they, Jeff? shrug Poser file formats are a text based macro system [looking at it from someone who designed a lot of macros once] that issues internal program commands just as a QuattroPro or Word macro issues program commands. They happen to be named "cr2, pp2, pz2, pz3, cm2" etc, but that's all they are - a set of macro strings excuting command functions. There's not much difference in syntax between a Quattro macro and an Excel macro, or a Lotus macro. They do similar things, so the syntax is similar, the command function is similar, and the names are often identical because they're describing identical system functions even though it's in three seperate and different applications. An @string function is an @string function no matter where... Any app that uses a text based macro file system to describe spatial coordinates, twist, bend, scale parameters, delta information, and assign program functions for show/hide body parts, morph values, and other character parameters is going to end up looking a lot like a cr2 no mater what the file extension is. Even if it uses slightly different command parameters... the way a Excel and a Quattro macro aren't precisely identical to the point where one works in the other program. Still.... there's only so many things you can cal a shoulder, a collarbone or a shin, and only so many ways to describe a delta parameter set within the accepted range of 3D applications.

I figured that out along time ago when they used people to make their post. The EULA hurts no one but them and in a few words only. Want to guess where? The new EULA protects the rest of the people here merchants included as well as other places. I told a few people this privately! Ron

Well I am beginning to wonder if the whole thing is not a huge ball of smoke hiding something else again underneath it.
The 30k issue for one. If you are selling a product like Victoria, say 20,000 legal units (remember there are 100,000+ users here alone) that comes to around $1,000,000 and the 20,000 sales is probably very conservative. Add all the extras that Daz create, add their brokerage fees on Victoria related items and the figures will really mount up. Then there is mike, the kids etc. and of couse upgrades.
In that context 30k is small beer considering the work of calibrating that is supposedly involved. What would the enhanced useability be worth it in terms of further sales or an upgrade costing $10? Well if they only sold 3,000 Face-Room-compartable upgrades to the Victoria owning members they would cover their costs and probaly push many more Victoria sales as a result of her full face room/P5 comapatability.

Now it just so happens I am trying at this moment to make a hi-res version of Victoria (120,000 polys+) using a variety of subdivisional tools and programs. However, there is a major problem. Victoria has over 40 Polygons with more than 4 sides. all the subdivisional systems I am using cannot handle these, the result is holes in the mesh. Now I wonder if trying to calibrate Victoria's head to work in the face room was a non-runner in the first place because of these 4-sided+ polygons.

Here are the stats for her head
The Victoria head contains 14 4-sided+ polygons.
4x5 sided on the cheeks and beside the nose,
2x10 sided at the back of the teeth,
2x16 sided at the internal terminus of the nostrils,
4x18 sided at the back of the toung and inner mouth,
2x34 sided at the back of the eye sockets.

For the record I admire both Daz and CL and the work that they do and I am saddened by this row but the issues go to the heart of the Poser community so I feel I must say something about it.

BTW the above is just speculation on the whole smouldering bonfire!

Regards
STORM

Hmm, has anyone noticed how DAZ has purchased (Mimic) or has selling agreements (Vue, Deep Paint...yadda,yadda, yadda) with major software companies that utilize or enhance poser models. Sounds like there could be a major animation software player...Or is DAZ using these forums as a ploy/tactic to influence CL (Ahh, then the soap opera music chimes in as I arch one eyebrow).

Hmm. This could get truly interesting. Competition generally makes better business (and more business) for everybody. In fact, the kvetching here in the last few days could yield a pretty good specification list for a competing application -- if DAZ is smart enough to read it with that in mind.

"Or is DAZ using these forums as a ploy/tactic to influence CL " Why not? CL uses them to further it's own commercial ends. ;] And may be doing so more extensively in the future.

I thought it was odd that Daz isn't selling Poser 5. But in regards to the Poser figures to date, aren't all the figures in Poser 4 Daz figures and what about Poser 5, did CL come up with their own or did Daz design them. They always say competition is good, perhaps an alternate human modeling program would be a great thing.

Oh Sh*t, this could end up making the DSI battle over ownership and control of this place look like chickenfeed! ;0) Hi Bear! Regards STORM

I have not bought the P5 upgrade yet. But I will buy it, after I spend some time surveying the lay of the land here in the forums.

And if DAZ comes out with its own app, then I'll probably buy that program, too.

It's too bad that CL felt the need to cook up this Microsoft XP-style of copy protection. I, for one, could do without it.

CL should take a lesson from the world of CADD applications. At one time, AutoCAD and Intergraph were about equal in the marketplace. Now, AutoCAD dominates almost everywhere. Why?

Because AutoDesk allowed people to use the AutoCAD software in ways that Intergraph would not permit. Intergraph had a policy of attempting to contractually tie clients up; Intergraph slapped all sorts of restrictions on the use of its software.

AutoDesk permitted much greater freedom.

Attempts at exclusivity only lead to unhappy clients. And, when somebody else comes along with an equal or better mouse trap, well..............

Hi there, When people ask if Michael and Vicki are included in P5 I think it only fair to answer them suggesting they ask Cl questions we don't have answers to. I don't think I phrased that response quite that way. :) As a long-time member I always posted tip, tricks and such. I hope noone thought that I was trying to use tactics. Daz is busy but I think it is important to help people where they are having trouble or in doubt. If people are feeling this way I will stop since, for the most part, I am the only Daz employee that posts here. Anton

Anton I think your posts here are always welcomed by the community and I for one hope you do not stop. Regards STORM

DAZ making its own poser-like program is like a dream come true...if it's true. Pheonix: Long ago I suspected the same falling out you did, so I finally IM'd Anton and asked him about it. I don't remember his exact words but I know he didn't seem surprised at the question. And he didn't deny a falling out had occured. But he did say things were "okay" between DAZ and CL. (Or something along those lines.) In the Poser 5 manual, DAZ is listed on the Credits page as being a Corporate Contributor. It says, "The following companies provided technology used in Poser 5." It then names Runtime DNA, DAZ and Pixels Digital, Inc.

I've posted about this in prior similar threads, so, I'll just briefly summarize it here. The tech behind the Face Room comes from a company called Singular Inversions. That company's approach to facial models and morphs is considerably different from what CL and DAZ have done in the past. Bringing in SI undoubtedly carried a cost to CL which is passed on to the consumer. Doing the work necessary to adapt a DAZ figure to the SI tech is apparently being passed onto DAZ. Dan Farr's post at PoserPros sheds further light on the friction over that cost, and on the wording of the P5 EULA. While this apparent turn of events may cause a degree of turmoil in the community, it also ought to be a relief to the third-party creators of content here and at other forums, as it is becoming increasingly clear that the more controversial aspects of the new EULA are not aimed at them.

I do not know how this figures in, but the face room is module of software that was not designed by CL. That is why only P5 figures work. This is based on the discuss Joe Grover had at the Dragon*Con workshops. Runtime DNA and other Renderosity site merchants made content. Remember CL is an EGISYS company...such subsidiary situations can determine the choices such a dynamically growing company such as CL are able to take...both due the economics and due to business support/advice pathways.

As the thread grows faster than I can write, I would add that as far as I'm concerned, Anton has been an enormous asset to the community generally, and R'osity in particular, both before and after joining DAZ. I would hate it if he felt he should lay out to avoid controversy. It's a fact of life in the tech world that companies often have relationships as complex as nations: sometimes allies, sometimes competitors. Ask anyone who develops apps for MSFT. Moreover, if folks from DAZ (and Dan Farr and others have posted here in the past) or CL involve themselves more in these forums, I will not immediately assume that the result will be poisonous. Crass attempts at manipulation would be seen as just that by the folks here, who in my experience are probably a bit more paranoid about that sort of thing than they need be. OTOH, if CL and DAZ folk involve themselves more in the community in ways that benefit the members and thereby build good will in their respective companies, more power to them.

Hiya STORM. ;] Howya doing? Long time, bud. ;] Anton! Don't you freaking DARE stop dropping in and posting tips, tricks and other stuff, y'hear? If nothing else, at least in Poser Technical forums etc. I don't want to have to drive up to Daz and ask why you stopped posting. ;]

Anton, The DAZ employee I was refering to was not you. :) This was long before your job at DAZ. She did phrase it exactly that way, "Why don't you ask CL who is doing the models," and it was clear that DAZ had washed its hands of CL or vice versa. Please never stop posting here. Your posts are always helpful. I hope I haven't made you feel accused. Phoenix

Daz will never do that. I have done something that will not let them. This will be a private matter between me and them. I can assure you of one thing. They will meet me in person. Actually many of them have. Now they will see my true talents. I hate when people steal from others! Ron

Oh I see...ok, seems like I am always dodging darts anyway. hehe. Just checking. I brokered for a long time so thins might help someone. Technically there is absolutely no difference bewteen Daz ans anyone else that makes content. You make clothes, we make clothes. We make figures, you make figures. We sell them, you sell them. It is true that we are a larger company with employees but not any different than a broker that makes animals in his livingroom or office. Even if the P5 EULA was written specifically for Daz, what would apply to us applies to all since there is no distinction. I am new at Daz, but brokered for several years. In my personal opinion the MilDragon represents the abolute limit to the complexity a Poser figure can achieve. We just want something new so we can expand out products without limits. :) If Daz didn't like Poser I doubt the owners would have started a company whose only purpose is to make figures for it. Everyone needs to survive. Anyone remmeber what the P2 figures where like. Load them sometime. :) Anton Ironbear, you would have a long way to Drive(mabey). I work from Boston. :) Storm, while they are our most successful iems you have a few too many zeroes up there. Np but 30K per figure is alot for anyone. Ronmolina, what did we do to you specifically for talk like that? Sounds like "Poser Celebrity Deathmatch" or something. You ok?

Of course you're welcome here! I know how difficult it must be for you sometimes because you work for Daz now - trying to balance being a Daz employee and being a individual poster - but please don't let it get to you. You're a great resource for Poser in general. You're not the only Daz person who posts, just one of the more prolific. Honestly, I think that one or two Daz people need to put a bit more thought into their posts before hitting the submit button. (No, that isn't referring to you.) There's been some real firestorms from poorly worded posts. (And a few brouhahas from well phrased posts because some people always have to pick a fight, but that's a whole different story.) Have a great night. And now back to our latest P-Files episode.

Anton you have Stolen others ideas and meshes to long and now your a Daz person? I will no longer support you and show people what I mean. Ron

Ron, Huh? Whoa, man, you sound like like you've got a secret "laser" pointed at Vicky's head. :) What the heck you talkin' 'bout? Phoenix

Yeah... actually, I used to do renn faires in Pennsylvania, and visited Boston a couple of times while doing that. I know precisely how long a drive that is from Dallas, Texas to Boston. Almost as long as the drive from Dallas across Texas. ;] Hrmmm... might almost be worth it. My lady and I enjoyed touring Boston...

No Anton I dont! It is what Daz has said publicly. That set me off. Your work is excellent! Hey iron can I get a ride? LOL Ron

Could it be religion? Or could it be money, money, money. I believe they could be both. Realizing where DAZ3d is located. Could it be DAZ3d trying to push what is religiously correct on to us as users. And maybe CL realizes, that people want realism in their characters. Maybe CL is trying to per tech themselves from DAZ3d. And there religious views. I believe you'll see someone new creating characters for CL in the future. I do not really understand what is going on, however this is my opinion. I believe this is the problem that is not been stated.

Ronmolina, Oh my that doesn't sound good at all. Why don't you just call me 1-617-522-3977. You sound upset and it sounds personal. You can yell if you want to. I don't mind. Please, this online stuff is fun but not that real. I don't think I have even ever spoken to you. Call me. "not the bulleye, not the bullseye" :) Anton

fdw, As an openly gay man hired as Daz employee it seems unlikely that religion is involved. Come'on. When I met everyone there I can assure you I was not handed a bible(not that that wouldn't have been a nice gift). They are everydat people just like us. ok mabey more sane but just like us. :) Anton

Hot damn, this is gonna get REAL INTERESTING. Bookmark.

Anton: Just to clarify my earlier point, I don't know that some of the language in the P5 EULA was directed at DAZ, but it is starting to look that way. Reading the EULA, I was struck by the seeming gap between the broadly written anti-compete language (Section H of the Content Distribution secion, if I recall) and the almost equally broad list of permitted commercial uses for P5's content Section J of the Content Distribution secion, if I recall). Concern about a direct competitor to P5 would be one explanation for that gap. And while the EULA is equally applicable to everyone, I think it must be conceded that a company like DAZ is more capable of producing a competing product than someone who merely brokers a prop or a character, or even a helper app in the MP. Having said that, I am currently completely agnostic about the consequences if DAZ develops a competing product. Personally, I have had very good experiences with both companies, and would not like to see either diminished by acrimonious competition. But as I wrote earlier, a competitive relationship need not be acrimonious, and can also be complimentary at times. Should DAZ move into a more competitve relationship, my hope is that everyone involved, both at the companies and in the community, will behave like grown-ups and remember that it's not personal, it's business;-)

Texas - a country unto itself ;). It's some 800 miles across and some 800 miles tall... I grew up in Va. and if I drove 800 miles south I'd cross NC, SC and end up somewhere in Georgia ;). (yeah, ok, so I had nothing useful to add to the topic, but I now have a bookmark, so nyaaah! ;).

Yeah.. it's amost as long a drive from Dallas to Brownsville in hours as it is form Big D to DC. I've made both in one day, but it's wearying....

.

Hi Anton I have no problem with you Anton. However at one time I asked a question, about female geometry, why don't they show the female private parts. They show the man's private parts. I received a very lame answer. Basically I wasted my money, and time calling, for a ridiculous answer. Realizing later that the company, is owned by LDS members. Maybe that as changed. I do not know. However I believe in equal rights, if you do one you should do for the other. I guess that is my biggest problem with DAZ3d.

.

It should be noted that court precedence has ruled that if PART of a EULA is declared unenforceable the ENTIRE EULA can be ruled unenforceable until such time as a legally enforceable EULA is in place. I posted this in another thread many, many eons ago when the Daz EULA was being debated. I have had an attorney who specializes in copyright, patent and trademark law on retainer for nearly 20 years. I have never seen anyone, let alone an attorney, laugh so hard as when I have shown him some of the EULAs, Licensing Agreements and Readmes floating around here. Simply, copyright law is there to PROTECT the creator... not to corner or monopolize a market. Those who believe and behave otherwise stand ready to learn a very costly lesson. Declaratory judgements can be very, very expensive. Just a whimsical thought while I daydrream back to how smoothly that registration went. Anyone up for some Chez-Its? I've got those little goldfish, too. Help yourself. casamerica

fdw The company is not owned by LDS members. It is owned by a guy named Cris and a guy named Dan. Come'on...enough. I worked for a company in Boston...that doesn't mean it was owned by the catholic church. :) Please don't assume that a lack of a vagina means discrimination or religous fanaticism. :) My grandfather was a baptist minister. They get alot of flack too. Plus if all that was true would we really be selling so many underwear and swinsuit textures. :) Look for my Michael textures. They asked I not show genitalia in the ad renders. No foul. Anton

Anton, the place would not be the same without you. I have learned more from your little discoveries postings than from any tutorial. I wish you well, sir. Regards, Q

..

casamerica: Hope that lawyer didn't say: EU LA pay for it.... Or is that really what it stands for. Q

Anton, I disagree with homosexuality because of my religious beliefs, but I think you are perhaps the most talented figure creator out there, outside of Chris Creek, who made Mike and Vicky. I'm personally very glad that Daz doesn't delve into the adult realm with their figures, although some brokered products lean that way. I don't buy from folks who create adult products or create adult images. I do respect you and think your work is awesome, and your skillz are a good fit with Daz. Can't wait to see y'alls' "Poser Competitor" software perhaps we could nickname it for a while, perhaps call it "Eclipse" or something, while it is still under wraps. Competing with CL will be a huge challenge, but it will be fun to watch, and sit back and spend money! I wonder how this will effect the current Poser community, and compatibility of Daz products for Poser. God bless, Ben