Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5434

One thing to remember, they are only being banned from the merchants forum, not the entire site from what I understand. Still a shame.

Well let me see if I understand this, the Merchant Forum is for those merchants that sell their work here, correct? If this is the case, I really see no problem. I would assume that this forum was created so that merchants that do their business here would have a place to gather to discuss their work and other information, also if this is the case, why would anyone else want to be involved in this forum that really has no business with it? Sharen PS: if I am incorrect with my assumtion, please let me understand what the problem is....I read your post link above and just don't see the problem.

They aren't banned from selling (making money) here. They just can't access the merchants forum. Not an issue at all. The merchants forum is not an important place to go anyway unless you want to discuss the MP design. Competing brokers have no business in there in the first place. And should consider themselves lucky they can host items here at all. It's like McDonalds selling Whoppers for Burger King. But Burger King being upset because they aren't allowed into staff meetings. Sure I still make money here. But I wanna also be in charge and speak my mind WHILE I'm also a competitor. I WANT A GOLDEN GOOSE NOW DADDY! NOW! You people get upset over the dumbest things. When are you going to grow up? ScottA

I have spent $1157.67 at Rosity since February 2002. The buck stops here. Ciao and good luck. JDexter

Scott, why would someone be upset about this? I just don't understand why this was posted at all? Sharen

yes i agree i have spenjt money here not alot mind but i as a merchant cannot beleive they would do this as its petty and very childish its ok when they are getting money from us merchants and aslso i wont be sellign here any more as they have to many merchants and yer stuff gets push so far back in time it is unreal any way cheers dolly

I'm going to try and explain just a bit without stepping on any toes. Keep in mind that I do not work for renderosity, I'm just a merchant here. The merchants forum was more than just a place to talk about improvments to the Marketplace. If there was an issue with a product or an overall question that the answer could benefit all merchants this was the place to post it. If there were problems with the store such as an items going missing, renderosity uses this forum to contact the artist or artists in a general fashion. It was also a place to look for another merchant to assist and team up with in order to put out a package. This could be considered not a renderosity forum, but rather a mervchants forum. One for merchants to discuss developments behind the scenes. This forum was given under the merchants agreement that every merchant has to sign. It has now been retroactivly taken away. Many of the merchants now banned from this forum were some of the ones that had the most to contribute. This not only removes thier voice but also hamrs the rest of the merchant community here at renderosity. Granted we can go elsewhere for this same info, but where does that leave the merchant forum here? I can only post this message and can't really post the rules given as that could be considered against the rules and henceforth cause myself to be banned from not only the forum but also the site.

Lol Sharen. I wish everyone was as level headed as you. You wouldn't believe the things my monitor has seen over the years here. People are emotional illogical beings. They freak out over the grass growing in the wrong direction. But if you can keep them from killing eachother and focused on one thing. They do manage to create some amazing stuff. :-) ScottA

Actually Scott your analogy is wrong. This is like owning a chain store in the mall and not being invited to tenets meetings because your store is located in other malls that you happen to have an interest in. Even if you happen to own stock in those other malls you still have a vested interest in makeing this mall work. If the owners here are worried about secret stuff getting out they should have opened another forum. The merchants forum was a place for merchants to get together to discuss things of interest, help each other out, etc.

They aren't banned from selling (making money) here. They just can't access the merchants forum. Not an issue at all. It is an issue. To me, as a merchant, the Merchants forum is the most important forum here. It's the one I check first every morning when I log in. It is NOT about the MarketPlace design. It's about everything that has to do with being a merchant. It is most definitely an issue. Especially since when we became merchants we were given certain benefits. You can't just change your mind and take that away. That's breaking the contract.

I agree Eowyn. Things are going to be changing here. Merchant X creates models and also owns another site with a store. This person now no longer has access to the merchant features which include the guidlines for remaining a merchant. This person now leaves due to the change. Merchant Y creates textures for merchant X's products. This merchant will now have to leave and follow merchant X in order to keep thier sales. It is that or find another merchant to partner with that is here at rosity. Now sure how far this will change things, but it seems to be heading towards making rosity a gated merchant community. Some people like it, some don't.

Sharen and Mike, the renderosity merchant forum is where people who sell stuff in the renderosity store can get help from each other and from store admins. Scott, if having a special forum for a specific topic is not important then why are forums separated by topic at all? So disassemble all the forums and see what you get. And so if you are barred from one of the topic forums that happens to be pertinent to your activities, is that a dumb thing to be upset about?

Sharen it's posted here more than likely because it affects users as well, this will change what is offered to them here, merchants are closing their stores - not all of them are owners/admins of competing sites either. They are leaving because they feel 'rosity has betrayed their trust and the agreement that they had with merchant's. As a merchant here and a competitor I may also be banned from the forum in question. So when that happens how will I know of site policy changes (like the warehouse and the merchants contests) that affect merchants? Yes I own 3-D Arena, but when I am in the merchant's forum my concerns are for my products that are here, at this site, and how to best market them or present them here. I don't need ideas from here to run my site - and frankly there is nothing in the merchant's forum that would assist a competitive site anyhow (nor should there be - hat kind of business belongs in an admin forum). Furthermore, as you can see from the posts at Poser Pros on this - this is not just for "competing" merchants either - they will be banning those who they feel are disruptive to the merchant's forum, implying "agree with all changes or you're out".

Congrats to Renderosity....if coming off as paranoid, untrustworthy, and self-destructive was what you wanted....you succeeded. :o

I haven't gone over to see what was said in the discussion today yet, but the way I understood what I read yesterday in the Merchants forum is that any merchant here, who has a vested interest in a competing site would be banned from the merchant forum but still allowed to sell here.

Now my problem with this is thus: Those who will be affected by this the most are the ones who helped make Renderosity what it is today. They don't deserve such a slap in the face. What is the point in this site making money off their products yet banning them from the forum? Tim mentioned competing sites copying Renderosity's features. Got news for you, you don't need access to the Merchants forum for that to happen. All they're doing is losing customers and creating bad feelings where they don't need to. It's all completely unnecessary.
There's nothing wrong with a little competition. Any business who tries to keep a hold on it's top spot will only choke the life out of itself.

Look at what Mehndi said in a post above and how much she's made here at Renderosity. Then figure the percentage that went to Renderosity and look at the recent turn of events.

It's a slap in the face no matter how you do the math.

Oh btw Sharen, they have already banned Mehndi of PoserPros from accessing the merchant's forum (within less than 7 hours of making their announcement). The implication is that only sites that are "partners" with 'rosity/bondware will be allowed to have continued access for their admins/owners and staff. So far the only site they have stated that has this exemption is RDNA as Tim has stated they are partners with them. Certain merchants will also be exempt (a few they have already mentioned) - probably based on their sales here. So even considering that access for "partners" is a credible business move - they turned around and showed it would not be applied evenly across the board but on a case by case basis.

By the way, nice move Tim. You just sent this sites best sellers off to other sites. Good business move.

Another important point I feel might have been overlooked in dismissing us as childish/whatever in this case, is that the Merchants' Forum is the only way to know about many policies that affect us prior to their implementation. Two good examples would be the warehouse. Had this policy been enacted [i]prior[/i] to the warehouse implementation, we would have over 150 products removed from the store with those Merchants given to no recourse except to sit idly by, watching as their livelihood slipped off. Had it been enacted prior to the inactive merchants debate, this site would likely have been saddled with an unworkable, short-sighted policy which would have disenfranchised over a hundred merchants into walking out permanently. You see, it was those "competitors" in that instance who worked with Clint and Jeff to find a positive direction which has greatly enhanced some aspects of the site look, the marketplace, and the forums, without disenfranchising others. You see, Scott, as Merchants, Mehndi, LadySilverMage, Ironbear, et. al. have a vested interest in seeing this marketplace succeed, regardless of the roles they play elsewhere in cyberspace. To imply that they are using access to the Merchant's Forum to somehow gain market advantages on this site is not only ridiculous, but unfounded and malicious. So pardon me if I'm not willing to sit back and let the 600 lb. Gorilla pretend to be a victim. Paul

Ironbear I do agree that the merchant is not important, But it's first the merchant forum than it's something else. I'll feel that a merchant is a merchant is a merchant. Do not have second class merchant. So if they don't fix it now I'm going to take my products and the $1800.00+ that I've spent this year and go else where. I sorry right is right and this is wrong.

See what I mean Sharen? :-)

How's the sand down there Scott?

You know, as of this post I'm going to stop monitering this thread. I see it going where it doesn't need to be.

Okay, I have read and reread these posts, and as a member of Renderosity (not a merchant here) but a memeber, what I see is this, 1.Merchants of only Renderosity are allowed into the RENDEROSITY MERCHANTS FORUM. 2.Merchants of Renderosity and that sell in other places will not be allowed into the RENDEROSITY MERCHANTS FORUM. 3.Merchants that sell here at Renderosity and other places feel rejected because they feel as a merchant exchanging ideas are important and merging together at one forum is a good place to do this. (you see I am a little at a loss because I never went to this forum) we are merchants, we do not communicate with anyone except our customers to see what we should do as merchants to help serve them. If I have this backwards I do appologize but if I don't, I feel that whatever and whomever started this forum, did so for reasons that may not apply for today. The Marketplace here is so large and has such wonderful work by many different artists, I don't see that they are stopping any of the selling, they are just restricting one forum to people who are specific to Renderosity. I really just don't know that this is bad. If you want to have a place to discuss marketing or what people want, or how to sell things, can't we all meet in a mutual area, this is the internet, can't we communicate via email, can't we communicate via the telephone.....it just seems like such a shame to jump all over this, when it is just one forum we are talking about. Again, I am not a merchant here and maybe I don't see the ramifications, but we are merchants so I am trying to understand it because I am a memeber here. I do applolgize if my comments have offended anyone for my lack of information and first hand experience. Sharen

Sharon, I am not a merchant, but after following the threads and making my decision, this is how I read it: Merchants who had access to the Merchant Forums no longer do. This is not a new forum that was set up for exclusive brokers of Rosity, it was set up for anyone who sold anything through the market place. By reading the posts, a one-sided decision was made (and implemented) disregarding all the benefits and status of the current merchants who also now have sites of their own. 3dWizard's analogy sounds exactly what I was thinking about. But as a customer of this site, I see the move being detrimental to the continued quality and offerings available here so I will now put my money into other sites in hopes of shoring up their business so that I can continue to get quality items. JDexter

Sharen, You are not totally correct above. Here is my take. Any merchant here has access to that forum, even those who sell elsewhere. However those who own or have a major interest in other broker sites will be excluded from just that forum. Also if a merchant is disruptive they can be banned. Basicly this is their site and they can do what every they want. But, I hope you see why I gave the mall analogy above. If they wanted to talk about site improvements away from prying eyes they could have done it elsewhere. The merchant forum was originally for the benefit of all the merchants here wither you had one product or fifty. It was the first place merchants could go and exchange ideas with each other, solicit feedback on new product, etc. There was a lot of sharing between the merchants int he forum and I did not see merchants ripping each other off. I am not sure what casued this move. For me it is a lot more than just this. This is just the last straw for me. I have been through both admin changes and number of other battles here. But the attitude demonstrated by the owners of this site is just to much.

Okay, I think I understand better now the3dwizard and thank you, but here is my question......WHY the change, something must have happened? Sharen

i've been thinking more on this banning. I think all merchants and customer need to ban renderosity for a week No posting to forum or gallaries or purchases or upload new product or free stuff. Nothing at all. Let see if they hear us now

For me this is a matter of principle. The trust relationship is being degraded between the upper admin and the merchants. I do not have products elsewhere nor do I own my own brokerage. But where is R'osity without those merchants who do and have helped build this business? These other merchants and artists ARE NOT my competitors. They are my friends and family. If you are going to make them eat in the doghouse because of other affiliations (whilst their money is still used to support this business) then I must say I'm going out to eat in the doghouse with them. It's an illogical and unethical move that wreaks of discrimination and other, possible, underlying agendas. Geeez, ok we'll take your money but you can't sit with us. Take a seat on the back of the bus, buddy but you still have to pay the same fare. Sound familiar? ---Kei

Sharen, My guess is some handshake between R'osity and CL and Content Paranoids. ;) ---Kei

Sharen, The only thing that I can think of is they thought one of the other sites was using knowledge from postings in the forum about future store enhancements to make improvements to there site. They have not said however and this is only my speculation.

Sharen - What they are doing is telling certain merchants that they can continue to sell their products here but they are locking the door to the one forum where decisions are discussed that directly affect them and their products. The warehouse for example. This was discussed long before it was implemented. Had certain merchants here been banned from that decision they would not have known: a) what the warehouse meant to their product b) when it was to be implemented c) how to opt in or out d) the percentage reduction of their product e) WHEN a product is to go to the warehouse Another discussion affected status based on how many days between uploads, banner ad rotation, etc. If Renderosity is to take 40 - 50% of someone's product they have a responsibility to keep people in the loop w/regard to information affecting their product. The ridiculous argument of other sites stealing ideas is so wrong it's almost funny. The free section and it's notice of whether a download is for personal or commercial use is designed after 3D Arena. And it's here because members requested it. It's just wrong all the way around. And Tim's responses have been well below professional, in my opinion. He's not initiating a discussion, he's stating what will happen and not giving those affected a voice by banning them right away and insulting them on the way out. I'm angry and my responses will be affected by this anger. I understand protecting a product. But those who are getting shoved out the door are the ones who helped make this comunity what it is. I'm also torn. I enjoy this community for the most part, at least when people, including admins and mods, behave like adults. I have two products in the store and their acceptance was a huge boost to my self esteem w/regard to what I'd like to do in this medium. Even someone with few sales like me, needs the merchant forum to stay informed. It's not right and it won't be a good business decision.

Hmmmm, well, I am at a loss of words. This is obviously a very personal feeling too many. Seeing I am not a merchant here, it is a little harder for me to see the full story. I do of course see and understand comments that have been made here, on both sides. Plus the comments were very well stated. I am sure, if all who are personally involved, examine and present their cases, there can be a happy ending to this.....then again maybe not, but it isn't for lack of trying. Thank you for the information and patience in presenting this to me. As a member I am very interested in the growth of Renderosity and it's members. Sharen

I think some people have misunderstood that this does NOT affect any merchant that sells products here and somewhere else. It only affects merchants that own or operate sites that broker items for other people. There is a BIG difference. The merchant forum is a private place for merchants to build relationships, collaborate on work, talk about site improvements, discuss policies that need to be created or revised and get info on our community and market surveys. Merchants that own or operate websites that compete directly (by brokering) with Renderosity get a huge benefit from the private forum by not having to invest time & money into community research & statistical date. There have been a few times where private merchant discussions have been made public by a competitor (or those who support them) which is a violation of the merchant agreement. Then, the discussions are twisted into something theyre not just to make another site appear better. Many of times, the discussions are about things that arent even policies yetonly a what if, and the merchants help us work through the issues. Renderosity continually strives to make improvements for the good of everyone whos a part of Renderosity, and I think its sad that some are blind to it.

JenyK said: "I think some people have misunderstood that this does NOT affect any merchant that sells products here and somewhere else." I am sorry, I think it does. I think it is trying to force vendors into deciding to become exclusive and restrict trade. Whether this was done intentially, or not, remains to be seening. Als your statement: "Merchants that own or operate websites that compete directly (by brokering) with Renderosity get a huge benefit from the private forum by not having to invest time & money into community research & statistical date." Renderosity also benefits, as do the Vendors, from their involvement since they can also lend ideas and provide their own statistics with regard to things they've already tried to save Renderosity from going through the same hardships. I can mention several times where DSI has contacted Renderosity Merchant staff to inform them of "individuals" who have placed fraudulant credit card purchases so that they could keep an eye out and protect their merchants from such individuals as well. If that isn't providing a benefit to Renderosity, then what is? I will be making my own formal statement about this shortly. But you are wrong JenyK, the stores should work together to improve features for both the Merchants who sell in those stores and for the Community that shops in them. My statement soon in coming, Jack D. Kammerer DSI Representive

oh, I forgot to mention that merchant's are NOT banned...just another example of great work from the "Spin Doctors"

JenyK... unless Banned has taken a new definition in the last twenty-four hours, then.. again, sorry... you are wrong. Restricting access to an area by ejection means being banned from that area. Sorry, but who is really trying to "Spin Doctor" this? Jack

Was that a "formal statement" Jack? ;-) ScottA

Nope :o) Jack

One of the main persons this affects helped to build this site. I think it's sad that some are blind to that.

Kendra said: "One of the main persons this affects helped to build this site. I think it's sad that some are blind to that." ::shrugs and smiles at Kendra:: If they are like me, dear, then they'll unfortunately have to grow and used to it. :o) Jack (and no this is not my statement yet)

I quit goodbye

Now... I have made my statement... :o) Jack

More than one of the main persons, Kendra. I was involved in building the store here when it was first set up under Jack D Kammerer's management. Mehndi also helped in that. As a partner in DSI with Jack and Ed Arseneault, we were responsible for taking this site from a little over 2,000 members to over 50,000. WE are the ones that started most of the innovations you still see on this site. WE worked with Roy Riggs (fur) to get the software working beyond basic Bondware. This site's very foundation was built on our hard work and ideas. After our services were "no longer required", Renderosity continued to make improvements. I will grant them that. Many of those improvements were built on Russell's work. And Mehndi worked in the store to make many further innovations as well. I won't pretend that things have always been smooth between Renderosity and myself. I am sure Mehndi would concede the same thing. But, I have sold my products here in good faith. I have participated in the merchant's forum in good faith. Yes, I have vehemently disagreed with some of the policies they have instituted recently. But I have not "bashed" Renderosity in those disagreements. I have pointed out logical reasons for those disagreements. Reasons why I didn't feel they were good for the merchants here, mainly because they usually went on the premise that Renderosity is the only store that matters. I've seen no big secrets discussed in the merchants forum. Nor have I gleaned any information from there that I couldn't get elsewhere. And more than likely BEFORE it was discussed there. Sorry, but there ARE no secrets in this community. I suppose the powers that be think that by disagreeing with their policies I am trying to disrupt the Marketplace for my own agenda. Truthfully, if that was the case, I would have just kept my mouth shut and let them institute one silly policy after another. That would have helped my business elsewhere. But, since the policies of the marketplace affect my business of selling in the merketplace I couldn't in good faith do that. Renderotica and Animotions have NEVER told vendors where they can sell. We have NEVER restricted merchants based on their other affiliations. We have NEVER restricted who could promote their sites/products on our sites. And we don't plan to do so. That would not be in our best interest or the community's. The more restrictive Renderosity becomes and the more they try to be or act like the only store in the community, the more this community will be hurt. Monopolies do not care about their customers. They don't have to. My feeling is that this is just the first step in a long line of restrictive merchant policies. Especially since they have now extended the recent policy to include anyone who "doesn't support the purpose of the merchants forum". The implication is, disagree with anything and you will be blacklisted. We all need to be concerned about this. Members and merchants alike. And we all need to work together to prevent this from happening. Thanks, Diane Thure Griffith DTHUREGRIF@aol.com www.animotions.com Create the adventure! www.renderotica.com Serving the adult graphics community.

I wrote all the FAQ's for the Poser forum and the Poser technical forum. I created the Poser forum backroom from scratch. JeffH and I stood together and rebuilt this place after Willow left us and took everyone with her. And we alone built the membership back up from hundreds to thousands. This place would be nothing without me. And Tim never even tried to stop me from quitting! He is the spawn of satan! ScottA-- The 121st person who single handedly saved Renderosity from disappearing. ;-)

Scott, I never said nobody else did anything here. And I don't claim to be the sole reason for its being. Just trying to make it clear that that some of the very people they are now excluding were instrumental in getting this site to where it is today. :-P

{{{{Well let me see if I understand this, the Merchant Forum is for those merchants that sell their work here, correct? If this is the case, I really see no problem. I would assume that this forum was created so that merchants that do their business here would have a place to gather to discuss their work and other information, also if this is the case, why would anyone else want to be involved in this forum that really has no business with it? Sharen PS: if I am incorrect with my assumtion, please let me understand what the problem is....I read your post link above and just don't see the problem. }}}}} Sharen, I have $20627.40 worth of "business" being in that forum. That is how much I have sold in my time here as a merchant now in the MANY years I have been a merchant and not once pulled my products out, and continued to add new products over the years. It appears this was to target me, to get me out of there, get my products out of there, merely because I also happen to own PoserPros. Today, I am declared enemy of the state and bannished to the Gulag Archipelago for the heinous crime of starting my own site... tomorrow it will be you or someone else. Do not sit complacently on this matter thinking there is just cause or reason somewhere in it all. I am not in any way disruptive to that forum. I am a merchant in good standing. I do my best to help other merchants when I have time. I teach what I know to others in there. I collaborate with other artists here to give them a leg up on getting "started" when they are newbies. I behave myself with dignity and do not curse and scream and rant and rave on a day to day basis like many in there do. I do not speak rudely to the staff. My only crime is that I own PoserPros.

Medhndi and that is why I as just a small merchant have close my store and delete all my stuff for this ^&*^% hole. So this is my late posting here too See at PoserPros and others thebert

{{{{ScottA: They aren't banned from selling (making money) here. They just can't access the merchants forum. Not an issue at all.}}}} Good grief Scott! Of course it matters. Without access to the merchants forum I have no voice in matters that affect my products, no "vote" as it were in important matters that more and more keep being brought forward that directly affect my very ability to make money. Maybe we should take away your citizenship to this country, and whilst we are at it also take away your ownership of your business you are so proud of in real life, and then tell you you should not mind since you can go on working there just like you do now, you merely cannot vote in elections in this country, nor actually take part in ownership decisions that affect the business you helped build. Would that matter to you?

You're looking at this from an emotional point of view Liz. Tim isn't trying to punish you for not behaving properly. Tim isn't punishing you for having a store of your own. He's just trying keep the competition at a reasonable distance, while still cooperating with them as much as possible. He should have done that a Looooong time ago. Nobody gives direct competition an all access pass to their secret places where they talk about their inner workings. But you had one for several months now. That's stupid and dangerous from a business point of view. When you started your own site and store. You gave up the right to have a say in how Renderosity does things. Even if you sell things there yourself. I personally would have made a point in discussing that with you the minute you opened up shop. I would not continue to sell your products unless we talked about certain rules first. And make sure we agreed upon them. That leads us to the real problem: The folks who own this place are nice folks. But don't know enough about business to think ahead. Anticipate the potential problems. And take action BEFORE problems begin. They stumble along. And make mistakes. So we end up in these emotion fests where everyone gets crazy. Because business wasn't handled properly in the first place. Then they try to fix it later. When It's too late. And we have running and screaming. I got tired of explaining how to run a business to them. They weren't listening to me. And I was getting pissed at them myself. So rather than lose thier friendships. I quit before I got to the point where they were no longer my friends anymore. I am friends with the Admins. here. But I will not work with them because of that. Bad business. Sure I'll go along with that. Personal vendetta....No way. I don't buy that one. ScottA