Lynn,

Hi! In regards to Vue4 Pro, I've been supportive from the beginning defending E-On on many issues because I thought most were knee-jerk angry reactions. Though now is probably not a great time to be asking about paying for tech support since there are still quite a number of issues with this newest piece of software - which.... I should add, has incredible potential and I'm looking forward to it being completely stable and reliable!

That being said, I personally am against a "pay for tech support" policy. My primary piece of software is Lightwave and I use it EVERY day, Sun. thru Sat., and Newtek support has always been free (AFAIK). I have used Vue d'Esprit mainly for background skies and I haven't found time yet to work with Ozone2. I have also purchased Vue4 Pro and my main issue with this software is that it does not yet import LW objects with textures in tact. The textures ARE there, but every one of them has to be resized. When you're dealing with a couple hundred textures that gets tedious VERY quickly. E-On tech support essentially said to "wait for the next patch and see if it's fixed." If this is what we would be paying for, it won't work. I think it might be a good idea if you were to spell out precisely WHAT a "Paid for Tech Support Program" would entail.

Lightwave has it's problems too, but they are not quite as abundant as Vue4 Pro is at the moment. I do believe that Newtek has a few more employees than E-On does, but that should not sway any argument FOR paid tech support. I have never used paid tech support and until it becomes mandatory, I doubt I ever will. I never base a project on software I am not familiar with. I figured I would learn Vue4 Pro and when it worked well-enough for me, I would include it in my list of software I often use - until then, it stays on the R&D shelf where when I DO find time, I work with it and try to find solutions to do something interesting. There are forums such as this that help others find solutions to their software problems and it will not be easy for you to convince users that paid tech support will work.

I apologize if I am completely mis-reading the question. Oftentimes things need to be spelled out for me - you may need to do so here! :)

Thanks!

Megalodon

After reading all of the above, I'm tending to agree with Smallspace regarding the licensing agreement. You can import and export obj files to your hearts content, but doing so with the PZ3 format negates the possibility of exporting FROM Vue. The copyright issue just seems full of hot air since we CAN import/export obj files - it's only the ANIMATION info (correct me if I'm wrong here) contained with the PZ3 files that we can't use in export. Which begs again the question..... WHY? Since we CAN import/export the figures, why are we stopped from exporting the animation?Interesting. Then again... perhaps it's only another bug - that would be nice in the long run. I guess I won't be satisfied till E-On steps up to the plate and answers the question. We shall see. Megalodon

Okay Purloinius.... you've made your point. Why do you feel the need to beat your own dead horse? Enough already. Now... why don't you go and try to learn the software and contact E-On with your SPECIFIC problems and work it out. Because of free speech, you can keep on beating that carcass - but you're really getting on my nerves and I'm just tired of "listening" to all of the whining. It would really be nice if you would act just a TAD professional and not sound like a child throwing a temper tantrum. If you spent as much time working with the software as you do whining about it you would probably be the resident expert. Megalodon

I think it was something along the lines of... is peanut butter and jelly REALLY a good combination? ;)

Gaussian, Again you've wasted alot of space saying nothing. You say Wabe has made silly comparisons. Yeah, YOU feel they're silly while others do not. And just to say that they're silly is derogatory and a remark better kept to yourself! Oh... and since Gloubi and I don't have a homepage/gallery... we can't be taken seriously? Okay Gaussian, how pathetic is THAT statement? Let me explain something to you: I am a business owner (for over 8 years) and have used Lightwave and Vue (among MANY other programs) PROFESSIONALLY for a long time. I RARELY have time to sit down and experiment and do R&D let alone make pretty pictures and post them in a gallery for YOU to see. I make money with the software I use. I make money with VUE! You take so much time and space to list ALL of the problems that Vue had because E-On listed all of the problems for you so you could copy/paste. How nice of them to provide this for you. E-On is one of MANY software developers that have had lots of problems with a version of software. Do you think Adobe didn't have problems? A former boss of mine worked for Adobe as a salesman and he told us of professionals coming to him with their problems concerning crashes and bugs. And gee... I wonder how much larger Adobe is compard to E-On and how many more resources they can put into a product? Gee.... I wonder.... And why do you have to be so dopey and say that we said you can't have your opinion? MY specific problem with your post is that you generalized saying that their software has always been buggy and that you need to specify what YOUR problems were. Perhaps if you had done that in the beginning you wouldn't have wasted all of this space! But noooo, you have to PROVE your point by listing everything that E-On listed. Do you think that all other companies make a similar list of ALL of their fixes? If you do you're dreaming. You "stated that E-onsoftware has a reputation of producing software that contains a lot of bugs" - I disagreed saying that I had vitually NO problems with Vue3. You have YOUR opinion and I have mine. And it's quite interesting that you called Wabe's software comparison silly and yet you completely ignored mine concerning Lightwave. Obviously you don't want to remark on anything that would make sense. Interesting. Continue to have your opinion and bash E-On even though "I like Vue dEsprit a lot and I will continue to use it" instead of offering contructive information. Sure, that's fine. You're a big help! It's okay to express an opinion, but when you just want to add fuel to a fire with nothing constructive to say... well... why don't you just say NOTHING?! Keep it going Gaussian! Megalodon

Hey Gloubi.... come on, simmer down! :) We're all here to try and help each other and there are times when we all get annoyed and frustrated and need to vent. We'll just chaulk up Gaussians'comments as "being really frustrated with the software." Vue4Pro has frustrated me and I've been in contact with Tech Support and I'm hoping that the problem will be solved in the next patch. We'll see. My whole point is that there really is no need to bash E-On here. I find no fault with citing specific problems - it's just that when negative generalizations are applied it gets out of hand. This has happened with other companies before and will continue to happen - do we want it to? No. Is it something that we have to deal with? Yes. Most of the people in this forum are Vue users and like the software - otherwise they wouldn't be participating. Let's move on past it and help E-On make better software which will in turn give us better tools to make even more incredible images. I am truly looking forward to what E-On has in store for VuePro! I think they're headed in the right direction. Megalodon

As do I BigGreenFurryThing - something that I haven't quite gotten to in the manual. This will be very useful. I look forward to your tutorials when you get them completed. Megalodon

Okay Gaussian... Hoow abooout a more recent program to compare... how about Lightwave 6.0? Cost at the time was retail $2495 and it was far buggier than Vue4Pro is right now. Newtek rewrote alot of the base code and I'm sure E-On did to create "trees swaying in the breeze." And as far as E-On releasing programs with "too many bugs" as you say, I found the release of Vue 3 rather bug-free. I didn't have any problems with it. So... obviously your statement above it YOUR opinion and you are entitled to it. I think that Wabe was trying to say is... why bother to say anything at all? If you want to voice your opinion start another thread. Your response has nothing to do with the rendering time issue and everything to do with bashing E-On. Since you've already made up your mind and can't be convinced otherwise... really, why bother to even say ANYTHING? Just want to vent? And as Smallspace stated above, his rendering time for what he had in his scene didn't seem that bad. What other software have you used that can render scenes with millions of polygons faster? It's okay too have your opinion, but instead of just saying that E-On releases buggy software, why don't you list your bugs through the the years instead of just saying that all of their software is released buggy? I personally think that Wabe's comparison of PhotoShop was valid - just because it was quite a while ago doesn't make it any less so. But that's YOUR opinion and not mine. This is MY opinion. Megalodon

Hi Cravatman!

First... what type of objects can Viz 4 import? Vue4Pro can export objects as .obj, .3ds, .dxf and several other formats as well

Regarding Dosch spheres (or Surrounding Skies)... it depends on what you want to do. We've bought quite a number of Dosch textures and 3D objects and we think they're great! And I'm sure that their Surrounding Skies is great too - it's just that Vue allows you more control. Dosch skies are essentially set textures (animatable, yes) but you can't change the type of clouds or amount of light, etc.]

Can Viz 4 import .3ds scene files? If so, Vue4Pro exports .3ds scenes which I assume can then be used in Viz 4. Currently, as far as I know, only 3D Studio and Lightwave can work with Vue4Pro using the synchronizing plugins which allow alot of control over your scenes.

You should probably contact E-On directly and ask them any questions - they've been very helpful to us!

Good Luck!

Megalodon

Hi Tim!

" but the plain fact is the Vue is simply the best, most reasonably priced product of its kind in the marketplace."

For me... I was agreeing with Forester looking at the cost and features of World Builder at $999 and then you've got to add another $149 for a Lightwave Communicator. And then there's World Construction Set at $995.

It just seems to me that when you compare the above more expensive programs to Vue4Pro, you get more bang for your buck. And YES, Vue4Pro isn't up to speed... yet. But I think it will be soon. But... you are right - it is our opinion! :)

Megalodon

I purchased Vue4Pro to use in conjunction with Lightwave. We do architectural visualization and for what it should be able to do and for that VERY low price we had to give it a try. We've used Vue d'Esprit 4 and love the ease of use and were very pleased when a Pro version was announced. We've got World Builder Standard 3.0 and to upgrade that to something workable with Lightwave will cost quite a bit. We've also got World Construction Set 4.5 and had way too much trouble to get it to play nice with LW. So... most of our "stuff" was done natively in LW and we haven't used either of the higher-end programs listed above.

Unfortunately we haven't had much time to "play" around with Vue4Pro. What we've seen we've liked. It's still as intuitive as Vue d'Esprit 4. We did have a problem with the install (Step 6 tutorial) but all we had to do was go back and do a simple, no frills install. No problem. We've had problems with texture translation between the two programs - Steve Bell informed us that this is one of the things being worked on. Excellent! Hopefully the patch due soon will address most of the issues. I sincerely have high hopes for this newer version of Vue and am looking forward to a rock-solid piece of software in the months to come. And... I think that E-On will make sure that we get it. After all, they'll want us to upgrade to Vue5Pro!

Megalodon

PS. For those who are waiting for all of the bugs to be gone before you buy... unless you're seriously strapped for cash, you might just want to take the plunge before the intro pricing fades away. Vue4Pro is not perfect right now, but just wait (and not too long) till it is! As Forester said above, Vue4Pro is the "most reasonably priced product of its kind in the marketplace." It seriously has the capability to outperform World Builder and World Construction Set - both are quite a bit higher in price!

PPS. I don't work for E-On... I just like their products! :)

Well.... Lightwave 6 was so riddled with bugs MOST users were pulling their hair out. But it also seems that most users stuck with the program and it's been improved considerably since that time. But you are right, it does depend on the tool that you use the most. If animation were broken in Lightwave and I used primarily animation, then I would be incredibly ticked off. I would end up going back to the previous version (as some VuePro users are doing going back to Vue4) and waiting til they get it fixed. Now... if they didn't address the issue then I would probably jump ship and try something else. Then again... I've got alot invested in Lightwave with the plugins so that might not be an option. Let us hope that E-On supports their customers coompletely and fixes all of the broken items as well as upgrading certain aspects such as the plant editor. Ya see.... we can agree to disagree and leave it at that. I think that's great! (Though I think that we're in basic agreement that software should come ouoot bugless!) How often do these disagreements get into name calling and belligerant remarks? Too often. Thanks ShadowWind for remaining professional throughout! Fantastic! :) Megalodon

But ShadowWind... by your definition, 99 to 100% of the software we buy is defective. Do we stop using it? How often does Windows crash for users? Lightwave crashes - current price $1595. Project Messiah crashes - current price for Studio $995. Digi-Element's World Builder crashes - current price for the Pro version (similar to VuePro) is $999. ALL of the above software packages (which are more expensive than VuePro) crash AND have bugs. So they are ALL defective? Well, the bugs ARE being addressed and hopefully will be fixed. Lightwave is in version 7.5 soon to be 8. Messiah is in version 1.5 and has had an immense number of bugs. World Builder is in version 3.5 soon to be version 4. VuePro is in version ONE. It DOES have bugs. What did you expect. Of course, software COMPLETELY without bugs. Here's a newsflash... it ain't EVER gonna happen anytime soon. But actually expecting the software you buy to be completely bug-free is totally unrealistic. And I honestly don't care WHAT software you buy - nothing is without problems. I'll bet you a dollar that the software you develop HAS bugs. It's just a sad fact of life - software will ALWAYS have bugs. Well... at least until AI's take over the development! :) We MUST keep letting them know about the bugs because otherwise they won't get to fixing them. But when people rant and whine (not pointing at you ShadowWind :) about something instead of calmly discussing the problem it gets annoying. Of course people SHOULD voice their opinions but they should also use common sense. In this instance, let's see what E-On has in their upcoming patch - hopefully something that will address most (if not all) of the problems discussed in this forum. I've worked in Retail for over 16 years and with computer graphics for over 7. Over the years I've come to the realization that not everything works as advertised. It would be great if it did, but... The sooner you (everyone) comes to realize this - that THIS is the real world, the better off you (everyone) will be. Ahhh... in a perfect world.... Megalodon PS. No offense is taken or meant. We all try to be professionals. Let's keep a talking and improving ourselves and our craft!

ShadowWind... First, comparing a TV to software is definitely comparing apples to oranges, TV's are set and the basic technology has been arouond for a LONG time. Software is always evolving and this particular code has NEVER been put together in just this way EVER before.

I'm not "attacking" you directly, but how do you know how much alpha/beta testing was done and in what areas? Perhaps E-On did not do enough testing or perhaps they did, I cetainly don't know.

"And yes, I'll go away now, because it's not proper to go against the grain here apparently and actually say your mind, informing others of what they are getting themselves into. Silence is the best friend of the software industry. I'm not angry at all, disappointed maybe, but having been burned by the industry before, and seeing this happen far too often, does tend to raise my blood pressure, especially after the price..." I must say I'm sorry you feel that way. How many people here are illustrating that you're going against the grain? I'm probably the most vocal and haven't felt I was berating you. Since you've been a programmer for 18 years and you know what the state of the industry is... why did you buy the software NOW before ANY patches were implemented? You know how software is and Vue4Pro is not immune to problems. I just get the feeling that you want to rant and rave (okay, show disappointment) instead of really trying to help the situation. If you're that touchy about discussion you should stay away from the Lightwave and Messiah user groups!

Take a chill pill ShadowWind and relax. Feel free to keep coming back with critiques about the software as often as you like. I'm not affiliated with E-On in any way and I voice my own opinion as do you. Fotunately we can do that. But don't go away thinking that everyone is coming down on you. I'm not! :)

Megalodon

Shadowind.... Software is ALOT more complex than it was in the 80's and 90's. Hell, just having to run through the hoops that an OS today makes them is daunting. You can't compare something like Vue4Pro to something created in 1985. I haven't bought ANY software in the last few years that doesn't have something wrong with it and requires patching of some sort. And some software has problems that doesn't even GET patched even though the companies are well aware of the problem - they just move on to the next PAID version.

"That is the way it used to be before software companies figured they could get their loyal members to do the beta for them and then patch it as need be." Well... that's kinda cynical - and I will give E-On the benefit of the doubt before making that sort of blanket statement referring to them in particular. "True, that some configurations will indeed cause issues that may not be noticeable out of the gate, but blatent errors are such that should have been corrected before it was mastered." Perhaps these errors weren't as blatantly obvious to E-On and their beta testers as they are to this large group.

Regarding the Step 6 tutorial file... don't you think that it's most likely that the file WAS working fine during their testing and that somehow between the final OK and the mastering it got corrupted? I think it HIGHLY unlikely that E-On knew it was corrupt and went ahead and left it there anyway.

Ultimately... YES, we ALL want software that works perfectly as advertised right out of the box. Will that happen? Chances are it won't because software increases in complexity all the time. If you want to complain about it and say that the company shouldn't do that, fine. That is your right and I respect that. I believe that it is much more productive to list the problems in this forum AND tell E-On the details AND be rational and not angry. That way, everyone knows about the problems and E-On can work on resolving them. if you think that MAYA (when it was priced in the tens of thousands of dollars) didn't have bugs that were VERY nasty you would be wrong - a friend of mine works with it all of the time.

I agree, I wish that the plant editor was alot more functional and versatile. Hopefully E-On will address this as well. And I also wish that there were substantially MORE foliage available. In time hopefully we'll get it. It doesn't all happen at once.

OK, now that's finally over with! :)

Megalodon