I said this thread would die on it's own, I didn't realize that nukem would come in and murder it. ;-) I just think it's funny that he said "I think this topic is beginning to mutate into something that really shouldn't be in this particular forum.", then proceded to spend the next three posts dragging it down by picking apart MY posts line by line and commenting on them. WHO WANTS TO READ THAT??? At the point that nukem requested we 'shut it down', we were still very much ON topic. Of course now we are way off topic, so I'll try to bring it back on course. If anyone has a Klez or Klev virus, go ahead, send it to me. It will simply bounce off my Netscape mail and end up harmlessly in the trash. Macs, Unix and Linux systems are immune to the vast majority of PC viruses. Klez is no exception.

STOP! with the QUOTING ALREADY! Geez man can't you have a simple conversation without quoting me in italics?????? I can't tell you how annoying that is! Do you do that to people while you are talking too? nukem wrote: "beginning to mutate" Well I could tell you were looking a little peekid. nukem wrote: "Well, shout it from the rooftops" You're that proud of it huh? Good for you! nukem wrote: "I haven't "told" anyone to move this thread." Hmmm that's funny. nukem wrote: "Quite frankly, some users need to be told" Well obviously you think so. nukem wrote: "It's just the simple truth about the reality of computing on a PC." EXACTLY WHY IT IS BETTER TO OWN A MAC! Do you see how annoying it is to have 'snippets' of what you said recycled, processed and spit back at you out of context with your name on it ?(like you'd forget you said it?) If you are trying to be petty and microanalytical, you're doing a great job. Go ahead, quote that too...only do me a favor this time and leave off the underlined "Alleycat169 wrote:" title. I think I'll remember that I said it. Sheesh!

nukem wrote: "Be mindful of your tone, Alleycat169. That bit of sarcasm was unwarranted and unappreciated." Uhmm...excuse me, but are you the moderator here? Be mindful of my tone? Sarcasm? Oh man are you way off base on this. First you tell us to move the thread, now you're trying to tell me what to say and how to say it? To top it off you micro-analyze everything I say and spit it back to me as italicized quotes? What's next? Gonna request that I be banned because I offended you? I think you need to relax a bit and let people be themselves. No one is hurting anyone here. We're having a discussion, and when that no longer becomes interesting it will die by itself. Not every thread around here needs to end by being locked. I think you are just tired of hearing how your PC can get this virus and any Joe with a Mac, Unix or Linux can't. Don't get upset about it, if you don't have anything else to add then don't. No one will think any less of you. No one is forcing anyone to keep posting. We're still discussing viruses and that is ON topic for this thread. Peace. ;-)

This isn't America, it is Cyber space. This is an international forum, not an American one.

"Maybe we should slow it down, shut it off before the mods step in?" Uhmm...why? Is it against the Renderosity TOS to discuss Bill Gates and Steve Balmer? Is it against the TOS to point out that the proliferation of email viruses is largely the fault of Microsoft for creating such an easy OS and email system to hack? This is not a Mac vs. PC flame war. We are discussing viruses and how they are spread. To be blunt nukem, it is impossible to have an interesting conversation without straying off topic from time to time. Or would you prefer this thread to be like this: "I just got an e-mail - Klev32 type from "Tuesday" a member here. Watch your virus scanners folkes." "Yes, be careful of that" "Yes, be careful" "You're absolutely right, be careful of viruses" "It's good you posted this, I agree completely, viruses are bad" ???????????????????????????????????????????????? Nukem, in conversation, discord, disagreement and comparisons are allowed and encouraged. No one is shouting, no one is insulting anyone. Maybe this thread should move to the OT forum, but I can't see any reason to 'shut it off'. I'm just curious why you would suggest that?

Attached Link: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.perrun.html

Well, until I actually see one myself I am not one to believe any virus warnings from anti-virus software manufacturers anymore. But I did do a quick search and found more hits suggesting it was real than a hoax. The funny thing is that Symantec's own data indicates it ONLY affects Windows and it's variants. Macs, Linux and Unix systems are immune to this virus. Like any virus though it has to be manually opened by someone stupid enough to open a strange jpg file in Outlook and Windows. All the anti-virus protection in the world won't save your network from one person like that. Face it guys, PC or no, Windows has got to go for the sake of the internet. ;-) Variants: W32.Perrun.dr Type: Virus Infection Length: 11,780 bytes Systems Affected: Windows 3.x, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Me Systems Not Affected: Macintosh, Unix, Linux

Attached Link: http://www.itd.umich.edu/virusbusters/hoaxes/perrin.html

"A virus has already been created that lives and spreads within jpg's." Man, what does it take to get this through to people? THE PERRIN VIRUS IS A HOAX!!!

The GUI was actually invented by Xerox, who allowed Apple to develop it further. Apple did not steal it from Xerox, in fact they were later compensated for it. Bill Gates and Steve Balmer (then a budding Microsoft) had bought a clunky OS for 50K from a guy in Seattle (it was called DOS). They were also doing some work developing apps for Apple. When Steve Jobs made the mistake of showing the new Macintosh OS, Gates promptly stole the idea and created "Windows". The rest is history. Gates and Balmer were devoid of any moral conscience about stealing from someone who had given them work. They released a cheaper, clunkier, uglier GUI that worked on cheap, foreign made beige boxes from Taiwan. Apple on the other hand released their OWN (American made) machine with their OWN OS. Is it any wonder that Macs cost more? They are better built machines with a native OS, something that no cheap PC is. Microsoft does not make machines, just software. So comparing the market share is not really an accurate assessment of the strength of the product. Microsoft software, from the start has been bug ridden and full of problems. The way they tie everything into their OS is ludicrous. Especially the lamest of attempts to destroy Netscape by linking MS IE into Windows and claiming that it couldn't be uninstalled. Please, how stupid do you have to be to buy that one? I'm not saying that Mac OS's are without their own problems, but every version of Windows has had major problems associated with it. Not to mention that upgrading Windows also means that you have to upgrade most of your Apps with it or they won't work on the new OS. So in the long run you are paying MORE for your Windows based Apps than Mac based ones because you don't need to buy an App upgrade when you upgrade your Mac OS. Apple has never been indicted or tried by the Federal Government for trying to stifle competion illegally. In my eyes Gates and Balmer are just as bad as Ken Lay of Enron. Any dirty deal under the table is legit to them as long as it makes them a buck. I can't support a company like that, I don't own any MS software nor would I ever use any form of Windows. Even without viruses Windows would still be the clunkier, uglier alternative. Mac OS is still the easiest for Non-Geeks to use. I am completely self taught, never took a class. I bought a Mac and was using it the same day. My brother on the other hand, needed to take a class to figure out how to use his 'inexpensive' PC with Windows 2000. Tack the cost of computer classes, video card, and other add ons onto the list price and stock Macs come out about even costwise.

Attached Link: http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,36194,00.html

WyldeSnake wrote: "Well, Alleycat, why make a virus that only targets like 10% or less of the worlds computers...Since just about EVERYTHING runs windows, makes sense that if you wanna do damage, windows is what you target." Music to my ears man. I could not have written a better ad for switching to Mac if I tried. The fact of the matter is that Windows and Outlook are wide open for hacking. Any child can hack a PC (and they often do). Hacking into a Mac network is much more difficult affair than hacking into a PC network. Besides that, MOST business programs are available for Mac OS these days so the old argument about "no software is available for Macs" no longer holds water. Even Linux and Unix users are better off than Windows users when it comes to security. I find it hard to believe that Microsoft can't fix these gaping security holes. I think they make more money by allowing their software to be hacked so that they can keep selling "security and functionality upgrades" every six months. Think about it, they have you by the short hairs don't they? Most PC users are just too lazy to switch to something better IMHO. PC's with Windows, which is hard enough to understand, so the thought of the headache of changing anything is too much to deal with for most people. In short, Windows is not the "Be all and end all" of OS's just because it is the most widely used. It is clunky, the user interface is ugly and artless (like it was designed by someone with no imagination), it's hard to navigate and it's always a freaking nightmare to install or 'uninstall' any kind of software, let alone a web browser or OS. I'm sure more people drive "Yugos" than drive "Porsches" worldwide too, but given the option for only a few dollars more, I'd take the Porsche every time. That's a no brainer. ;-)

Attached Link: http://www.emulators.com/

Yes but worth every penny considering all the 'hidden costs' asscociated with inexpensive PC's. SoftMac for PC is less than $200, that is not that expensive considering that you will be able to stop buying new anti-virus software every six months. ;-)

Simple solution to your virus problems? Buy a Mac, or use Mac OS on your PC (yes this is possible). I've been online since '96, I stopped running virus protection (Virex and Norton Anti-Virus) several years ago because I got tired of waiting for the software to scan everything. My Mac has NEVER been infected in all this time. Sure I've received all kinds of virulent email attachments, but I use Netscape, not Internet Exploder so Outlook Express can't take over my OS and email everyone I know in the name of "functionality". Exe's and vbs's don't work on Macs so I don't have to worry about an email attachment turning into a booby trap. I set my Netscape Mail prefs to automatically send email with any attachment directly to the trash folder so I can safely inspect it before deleting it. Even with PC's a little common sense goes a long way, just because the email says "I love you" doesn't mean it's true. ;-) Don't open strange attachments, even if you recognize the sender's name and you will probably be fine.

Yawn, it sounds more like maybe "Tuesday" caught the Klez virus and it was spread to you via Outlook Express without Tuesday's knowledge. The tip of the day from slashdot.org is that viruses only infect Windows OS and travel via Outlook Express. If you don't use Windows or Outlook you are completely safe. Hmmm...sounds like a definate plug for Macs. I know you guys love your PC's, but they are like cars with no doorlocks with the keys welded into the ignition. Anyone with a little knowledge and nerve can take them for a ride. If I owned a PC I would be screaming bloody murder at Microsoft for allowing viruses such a free reign, but then they sell anti-virus software don't they??? Hmmm...

Great link praxis. Unfortunately most of the media is buying into this hoax hook, line, and sinker. I saw a story on CNN about it last night and I remember thinking that it sounded kind of hinky. Personally I don't use Windows or Outlook express and I have all my anti-virus software turned off. I have never even seen a Mac virus in almost 7 years of being online. Maybe the SEC should look into these guys.

When in doubt, contact the creator of the freebie first. Copyright is automatic as soon as the artist creates it, there needn't be anything in writing to imply it. Usually paying a very small 'per use' licensing fee when you actually have a commercial opportunity would be acceptable to most people.

The one that ports to Mac first will get my vote and my money. So far both are for PC only.