Jeremy,

My apologies, I'm the one who built the poses. I just downloaded, installed (at home) and applied the same poses to Michael with identical results. This WILL be fixed... it looks like the wrong poses were included while wrapping the installer. Not to fret though, I do have backups of a previous version of each that doesn't cause problems.

William,

Likewise, my apologies. We've been upgrading our store software and it hasn't been going as we had hoped; frustration exists on both sides of the fence. If you have not already, send an email to webmaster@daz3d.com and our webmaster can troubleshoot the problem you are having and get it sorted out.

-Rob Whisenant
Content Production Coordinator
DAZ Productions, Inc.

Dave,

Yes, there is a separate material specifically for the bit. You can set the transparency to max (along with setting the highlight color to solid black) and it will not show in your render. Had we not included it [the bit], there would be those who wanted one and when it did not exist... would complain that we should have thought to include one. So, we decided to include it and allow the user to decide if they wanted to use/see it. In the world of fantasy, not all 'Dragons' expel fire/ice/acid/etc... (or so I've been told) ;).

-Rob Whisenant
Content Production Coordinator
DAZ Productions, Inc.

CromeTiger,
Just as an FYI, I posted a "MilDragon Null" on my website [rbtwhiz.com] a few minutes ago... you can find it in the downloads (down pointing arrow) section of the site.

-Rob

Well... this was put off for a week or so while we forged ahead on finishing the "Millennium Dragon" (btw, previews at rbtwhiz.com), but now that we're done with that... I can get back to final tweaks on the football uniform. Anyone in a production environment knows problems arise (so the actual date may shift to compensate for problems noticed in beta and the fixes required by such), but it looks like next week should be the release of the football gear.

For what its worth, this gear was started back in November 01'... whilst still a broker, before I was hired by DAZ (in March 02'). DAZ purchased my library of content (in addition to a few in-development works) shortly after my employment began. Since March, everything I build is an "Original DAZ Creation", and rightly so.

The uniform itself is based on the one I wore back in high school. I played outside linebacker and fullback... thus the shape of the pads. There will be morphs for other pad shapes (lineman, QB, etc) as well as fitting morphs for a couple Michael 2 full body morphs. As I said in #3, there will also be 19 different face masks, an articulate mouthpiece and chin strap.

One issue to contend with when looking at the sleeve issue is the grouping, topology and way poser bends geometry in "problem areas". I think we've worked a solution well... although I have to admit, it was a real pain to deal with.

As for legalities and such mentioned, Jeremy... Steve has already mentioned a few things to you in private based on comments in your emails. Whether you choose to pursue release is up to you... but you at least know the issues involved. ;)

Anyway... If I expect to release when I said we would, I'd better get back to work. ;)

-Rob

Spanki... BINGO!

Ron,
Apparently you are interested in a debate... otherwise you'd concede to the facts as they've been proven.

It may appear there is no crosstalk, but I urge you to look much deeper.

Say you load Marlin as your first figure... Marlin has an FBM to make Marlin himself, correct? Okay, now say you load Marlin again (second instance). The same FBM is used to make Marlin himself, correct? Yes, it is, if you loaded the same cr2 as you should be to test your theory. Have you tried to make Marlin #2 less 'Marlin' by adjusting his FBM to a lesser value (say, something like zero)? What do you find when you try this? What you'll find is that Marlin (second instance) stays just as 'Marlin' as he was before you attempted to dial him down.... Why? Crosstalk from the first instance.

Okay, so now you load Jill (first instance) into the scene. Well, Jill doesn't have a 'Marlin' FBM... so of course she doesn't crosstalk. Oh, but guess what... Marlin (first instance) is acting as a null.. just in case, because he has got the same group names as Jill, yet no familiar FBMs. Hmmm... Well, you push on and load Jill (second instance). Now you have two Marlin and two Jill... Marlin #2 is listening to Marlin #1 and the Jills are keeping to themselves. Synopsis : Crosstalk DOES occur; and you end up using a figure as a null to boot.

Should I go on? I really don't think its needed... the second image [Marlin, Jill, Jimmy and 3 Mikes] uses the same concept.

-Rob

Very well put, Les... but please, get out of my head, I have far too many voices already. ;)

If I were a man of words, as apposed to a man of ideas and creative solutions, I'd of said exactly that... long ago. It is precisely what I've been arguing, in my own twisted way, since they [fixed naming and nulls] became options. The key word being that they are... OPTIONS. Anyone who has really followed the progression since the earliest days could tell you that I was once very pro-'fixed naming' (fixed, meaning static)... but the scope changed, and so the approach as well.

Technically speaking, the listed null (i.e. Millennium Null) approach is the only solution thus far that actually works to prevent crosstalk. The other methods work around it. Not to say they don't have their uses, they do indeed, they just don't prevent crosstalk as has been claimed (and/or implied).

bloodsong,
In a word (or two), I agree.

Ron,
No, it is not "immune" in the global sense you seem to afford it. I don't understand why you can't see that. This has turned into a game of semantics.

immune (adj.) = Not affected by a given influence; unresponsive.

Load two of that 'character' in the same scene... proof enough. The only way it is "immune" ...is with caveats. The caveat being, you can only load one of the said 'character' and expect it to behave as predicted. So, in essence, not "immune" in its true meaning, at all (because of the caveat).

-Rob

bloodsong,

So far, looking at what you've stripped out and testing several Michael, Victoria, Stephanie, Mil Kids, P4 Male, P4 Female, P4 Children combinations... I agree, to an extent. There are however, a few caveats.

Instead of 'znullz', as you have it above, what I had to do in order for it to work is use 'hip' (the figure root) in its place. The problem here, however, is that it only prevents the targetGeom and valueParm channels from crosstalking (respectively). Other forms of ERC get cancelled out... for instance, the MCT (Morph Controlled Translation) that occurs when morphs like EyeDepth/Etc in the Millennium figures are adjusted. So... while it does work to a degree, it doesn't work to the same degree that the 'Millennium Null' (listed actors) approach does.

Please know, this isn't about 'my method is better than your method'... rather, it is about which way is most effective and most predictable. I'm all for a better way... whether I have anything to do with it or not, but until one exists I've got to stand by the one thats proven.

ming, as the owner/developer of the software... Curious Labs should indeed, be doing something about it. It is their software... they own it, they code it. DAZ on the other hand, develops content, without any control on what Curious Labs does (or doesn't) do with regard to fixing bugs. Despite that fact, DAZ does employ someone who has been working to solve that problem (and others) for a couple years prior to said employment. The experimenting and brainstorming haven't subsided either, there are a couple other things that have yet to be made public... things that could change the grand scheme of things. And in case you couldn't tell from the way I'm typing, the employee I'm referring to is... yours truly. I won't bore you with the details, though.

Well, its late... I'm off to try and catch a few zZzZz.

-Rob

bloodsong,

I'd like to take a look at the 'universal null' you mentioned. If you don't mind, could you send me the cr2?.. or point me to where it is located?
As a matter of semantics, we often misunderstand the meaning of the other's words (when it is quite possible that they mean the same thing) and instead of going that route again, I'd like to actually see what your talking about. It sounds interesting...

Thanks,
-Rob

P.S. Ron, actually it is NOT "foolproof."

Cherokee,

No logic? Well, you're entitled to your opinion... however, I don't agree. I'll try to explain why.

We've had complaints about file size (smaller than this) from some of our customers. Many of which involve their slow [dial up] connections... and not being able to complete the download because they are dropped by their ISPs. Whether from being idle too long, or because the server is trying to make room for others trying to connect and they get the boot, or one of the many other reasons we've been given. We cannot change their ISPs policies, but we can try and make it a little easier for them to get the product they purchased.

Combined, the file size is approximately 35MB+. Broken up they are approximately 6MB, 16MB and 17MB. Many of those who complained about a 30MB+ file size stated that they did much better with 20MB or less. Yes, the updater adds a bit of overhead, BUT all three file sizes mentioned above... are less than 20MB. Hence the logic; those without connection issues get all files required by the product AND those with connection issues get all files required by the product AND we protect our interests by verifying they are entitled to the files.

If we placed the installers themselves on the site as you suggest, there would be no way to verify that the person downloading them purchased the product they are intended to compliment. Being that they contain a substantial amount of the product itself (ALL maps, 45 of them), it is paramount that the existence of the core files be verified.

If the store software we are currently using supported the ability to allow more than one file to be linked for any given product, this whole thing would be a non-issue... we'd simply link all the appropriate files at checkout. This isn't an option at the moment... BUT, to quote Steve's response to the "before I shop at DAZ probably dumb question" thread, above this one. He says "This was a bit of an experiment. We're trying to do what we can to ease the download problems on our site. We've been looking into several options, this is simply one. We've used this in the past on certain product updates and never had any complaints, so we thought we'd give it a try on a more mainstream product. But, do not fear, we've just recently found an even better solution and that should not be more than a month away (I say a month because this "new solution" includes TONS more changes to our existing store as there are several aspects of it we're in the midst of improving".

I hope it makes a bit more sense, now that you're a little more aware of the reasoning behind it. That said, its late... I'm headed to bed.

-Rob

"If the search function doesn't return anything" should read: "Regardless of whether the search function returns anything" -Rob

Spectre,

First... my apologies for the trouble. We really didn't intend for there to be any when we chose to break up the installation process. The reason the files were broken up is for the sake of those without speedy connections. The download size would of been around 35MB+ (speaking strictly from what I remember when I zipped up the files to send out to beta testers), instead they are 6MB, 16MB and 17MB. Having had complaints in the past about download size, this is the route we chose to combat those complaints... the other option was to make the product smaller by stripping some of its content. We wanted to give those who purchased the beard as much as possible and allow them to see/use its versatility to the fullest.

Now, a question that may make a difference in what is happening to you when you try to use the updaters...
Where is Poser installed on your HD? The reason I ask is that your path for poser may not be within the parameters that updater is set to automatically look for (the hourglass is displayed while the search function is being executed).

How long do you let the search go before you cancel it? There are a couple of factors that affect the search time, some systems take a little longer for the updater/installer to search through its parameters.

If the search function doesn't return anything, you should be presented with a dialog box that displays the product readMe as well as a "Continue" button in the lower right. Once the button is pressed you'll be prompted with a dialog box asking you locate the file "blM2Beard.obj". If the search function executed at launch returned anything, when you press the "Select File..." you should already be in the folder that contains the file mentioned above. If not, locate the file (it gets installed to "RuntimeGeometriesDAZHairMilMan" of whatever directory you selected ok to in the core installer). Once the file and install hierarchy are visible in the updater dialog, click the "Update" button. The installer will then create another executable and drop it into the same folder as the obj. This executable is the standard DAZ installer you get when you purchase any product from us. Run it to install the required files. This must be done for both updaters.

If what I describe does not work for you, give us a call on Monday (I will not be back into the office until then, I've already, as I have every week since March, collected enough hours this week to cover 2 weeks worth of work... 80+), ask specifically for me, and I will personally walk you through it over the phone.

-Rob Whisenant
Content Production Coordinator
DAZ Productions, Inc.
1.800.267.5170
1.801.495.1777

P.S. I'm not in the office right now... I'm at home. I just called the office to check and nobody else is in, either. I should be in the office at about 6:30am-7:00am on Monday should you need to call.

-Rob Whisenant
Content Production Coordinator
DAZ Productions, Inc.

*"I've heard that the null figure fix isn't preserved if you save, close, then reopen the file. Is this true? I never finish a scene in one sitting."

"That is correct, FyreSpirit. If you save a scene that you have "fixed" with the Null figure, you have a cross talk problem when you open it again. I have tried numerous ways to get around this without success. The only way appears to be to take the figures out of the scene (saving them as characters and/or pose files) before saving the scene and then putting them back in again when loading the scene, using the Null figure once again... sigh"*

Link: http://www.rbtwhiz.com/rbtwhiz_ERC.html#CT

Up for a little reading?
12 paragraphs down from the anchor [#CT] in the linked document you'll find a sub-section titled "And then there was NONE." Reading the following paragraphs will explain how to use the null method and retain shielding against crosstalk upon re-loading a saved scene.

The "Millennium Null" figure is currently linked at DAZ's website to my personal website. You'll find it [the null] linked 6 paragraphs down from the same anchor [#CT] mentioned above.

"This method is absolutely permanent and foolproof. Your character will always be immune from Crosstalk"

I'm unsure of its origin but, the saying "there are a hundred ways to skin a cat" seems to fit. Ron, its obviously your favorite method, there is no questioning that... just as its obvious the null method is mine. But, to say it is "immune" or "foolproof" is incorrect. Every method feasible at this point has its downfall, all depending on if the user holds strictly to the devised steps for use, and even then... some are more susceptible than others. I advocate the null method, because when used as intended, it is the least intrusive on the user; it requires little (if any) manual work by the user. The method you promote requires a bit of work for the user (initially), and yet still... load two like figures in the same scene and crosstalk appears at first chance. This, not to mention the (though trivial on a per figure basis) increases drive space required for an extensive library of 'characters' using said method. As I stated above, each have their downfall... that said, in the end its a matter of what works for the user.

-Rob

Skimming the forum noticed this thread... Having been named specifically three times, all of which attribute "facts" to someone other than the responsible party, I thought I could/should clear up some apparent misconceptions.

"Crosstalk - This has been mentioned several times in this thread. I'd like to point out that crosstalk is nothing to do with either Metacreations or CL. It's an unfortunate by-product of advances made by the users themselves (specifically Charles 'Nerd' Taylor and Robert Whisenet), when they invented ERC. Crosstalk may be a pain, but don't blame CL for it."

"You mention Crosstalk, that was caused by us not by CL or poser, if Charles Taylor, Robert Whisenant & others hadn't found out how to use it there'd be no problem with it at all."

Both of the above statements are incorrect. Contrary to whats been said, MetaCreations introduced Full Body Morphs and Conforming Clothing [Figures] in Poser4, and while doing so created a problem we've all come to know and love as crosstalk. This problem existed long before I did anything with ERC (or EMC for that matter). When MetaCreations divested themselves of Poser, Curious Labs was formed (from the team responsible for Poser at MetaCreations) and took the helm... supposedly out from under the corporate thumb of MC (the MC PTB were claimed to have been the cause of friction slowing their development). After a couple patches and new software(s) over a 2 year 4 month (and counting) ownership by Curious Labs, crosstalk remains to be a problem... They [CL] inherited the problem from their previous selves [MC]. That said, I do know [via email and phone conversations with the PTB] there has been interest recently in addressing the issue. Fixed in five? Don't know, maybe...

"If I remeber right, CL only added a Phone-Home-Function to the Patch which were out on Robert Whisenant's Site for quite a time earlier."

There were a couple things addressed in the patches, some of which fixed problems created by previous patches... However, there were never any patches available on my personal website (links to the page at ghost effects website, yes, but no actual download link). My guess is that I'm being confused with Larry Weinberg and the patches he posted once on his website [ghosteffects.com].

I understand that the above comments are more than likely honest mistakes... I just wanted to help clarify the facts as I know them. Thanks for your time.

-Rob

Robert Whisenant
Content Production Coordinator
DAZ Productions, Inc.

Rena and/or Steve,
A question or two if I may... Do the Brittish wear the Kuwait Liberation Medal(Kuwait), Kuwait Liberation Medal(Saudi Arabia) and (what appears to be, the ribbon colors look like it but the medalion is diffrent in color and mounting) the National Defense Service Medal that the U.S. wears? If they do, does the order of precedence that applies for U.S military apply to the UK as well? Just curious...

-Rob