:::biting my nails to keep from apologising for apologising last week::: ;)

This question opens a whole can of worms if one ever did! Sheesh! There're probably as many answers as there are poets--or more. If you're asking specifically about form, here's something from Ezra Pound that may help. He identified two forms: "fluid" and "solid," saying that some poems "may have form as a tree has form, some as water poured into a vase." The book I'm pulling this from (don't even think for a moment I carry this stuff around in my own pure brain!) says "Fluid (or open) form is organic, like a tree's growth. Solid (or closed) form is symmetrical, like water poured into a vase. Both are natural, and so long as the poet is willing not to be theory-bound, he or she may use whichever a given poem wants." (Writing Poems, Robert Wallace) I'd agree with tjames and tresamie that if and what the poem communicates is the most important thing to consider. That being a given, I think the way the poem lies on the page and rhythm and rhyme (or lack thereof) are also pretty important, because these things are part of the communication. You can put a lot of atmosphere/mood/emotion into a poem with these things without ever having to state them outright. (For instance, the slow-motion feeling in your April Fool's poem that came from the structure.) I think I'm rambling. :o And this is just my own opinion, of course. (Even if I am rather fond of it. ;)) Lu

Your girlfriend sounds like a keeper. :) Lu

Thanks for the link. It's absolutely wonderful! Lu who is still grinning like a Chesire cat.

There are several things I like about this piece immediately. One is its form. I like the way your line breaks and stanza breaks slow the reader down and give a sense slow-motion and out-of-time-ness to the events in the poem. (I like this very much, in fact.) I like the fact that you let us see the action, hear it with the narrator, that you use physical details to accomplish this--showing, not just telling. It pulls me into the poem instead of making me an observer from the outside only. I like the specificality (is that a word?) of the piece. It's a specific moment in a specific day. It doesn't try to be grandiose or "poetically impressive" with high-flown language, and because of it's plainspokenness and simplicity, its poignancy comes across with much more impact. Hurts, in fact. Good tone. As a reader, I do wonder who died. Up until the point of the line, "She's dead?", we've been given three characters: the speaker, the woman/girl coming home heartbroken, and the guy who broke her heart. I don't know who died, and while I may not need to know very much about the person, some hint or vague reference would help, I think. There were only two or three places where I saw your English as a second language being a factor at all, so lovely job! Lu

"It was a dark and stormy night. . ." :)

:::dissolving into giggles at that last one:::

The story was my favorite. You certainly can create atmosphere! And I agree that it's a teaser. More! More! More! Lu

I'm really big on imagery carrying the meaning in a poem, and you've got a lot of it here. Strongly. Lines/phrases/images that especially stand out to me: "grit of smog and suburbia" (I don't know that you need "harsh" here, though. You've chosen this phrase so well, that harshness is implied and understood automatically. Good.) "in the dead of its night, In its rot and rebirth"--I like this, too. The alliteration of "rot and rebirth" is neat, linking two words with opposite meanings. The juxtaposition works well. "Walk the throngs and masses of uncertains, Touch and rub against the elbows of unknowns"--I like the way you use the words "unknowns" and "uncertains", as if they were tangible things. Unexpected. And while my personal taste is not to use two words when one specific one would work ("throngs and masses"/ "Touch and rub"), I just realized that it does sound a lot like Whitman, here, and this word choice is why. :) "Humble yourself to the myriad faces"--I like this very much. It strikes something inside that I can't quite put a name on. (Exactly what most poets strive to do to thier victims. . .er. . .readers!) "In the pools of sweat, blood and tears"---These three (blood, sweat and tears) are used together so often that they've kinda lost their poetic punch. They're not necessarily bad, they're just not as strong or fresh as some of the other lines you've given us. Feel free to toss out anything you feel doesn't apply, of course. Normally, I tend to dislike city-ish poetry, but you've done something intriguing, here. Thanks for posting it. Lu

Oh my. I had no idea you were using an actual point system. Do you have a copy of the system you might post or send me, so I understand what's going on a little better? I'm sorry. I had no idea. . . I write poetry quite a bit, but very rarely ever in full rhyming form; as I said I was just messing around with this. Could you entirely disregard the rhyming part of the point system for this? Would you prefer I take it down? Or, if you'd like, you could just chuck mine out entirely this time around, especially since I'm new on here; haven't yet earned my keep, that sort of thing? Not intending to cause quite such a mess, Lu

I just messed with the rhymes for fun, mostly. We weren't supposed to worry about them, necessarily, though. Or should I NOT have used them? The volta turn is indicated by the word "still". I intended for the narrator to turn at this point from a confusion and mild dissatisfaction with the frog storm to contentment or acceptance through his/her solution. You're right about the form. I've been fiddling. Here's a revision: When angels weep and startled toads descend from out the cloud-veiled heavens in a burst of rain, I strain in efforts to defend my brain from overload. Unless were cursed with Egypts ancient plagues I cant see how amphibians can shower from above. And why not larger beasts (perhaps a cow) the cherubs out of heaven thus might shove? Still, since these frogs are croaking round my feet the best of it I set myself to make. Trefuse angelic bounty is not meet, so I will set aside my taste for steak and, putting to good use what hast been given, will glut on frog-legs lightning-fried in heaven. Better? :)

Wonderful idea about peripheral short stories! Yes. That would be great! Hook your readers with related tidbits and lure them into the bookstore! (Remind us to hire you as a marketing specialist.)

OK. I just realized I had a current Poet's Market downstairs and that it might have some specific answers. (:::feeling a bit foolish over asking in the first place, now that I realize the answer was in the house all along:::)

Here's what I'm finding:

"No previously published" work means if your work "appears anywhere in print for a public audience, it's considered 'previously' published. That includes magazines, anthologies, websites and online magazines, and even programs" (including church, weddings, etc.) This is what the Renderosity Writing contests specify, yes? And this is something you'll usually know before you submit your work.

"First rights" "means the [writer] offers the right to publish his/her work for the first time in any periodical. All other rights to the material remain with the [writer]." So we're talking paper print, here, yes?

"Electronic rights" "cover a broad range of electronic media, including online magazines, CD recordings of poetry readings [and one would assume prose readings as well], and CD-ROM editions of magazines."

"All rights" means you're turning it over to the publisher entirely. It isn't yours anymore.

So it looks like it might be ok to have stuff on a forum as long as the publisher didn't want electronic as well as first (or other) rights. Not that you'd likely want to put a whole book up or anything. :o

All this only assuming I've not misunderstood or missed something, of course. Entirely possible, if not probable.

Thanks for the feedback on this. Dialyn, I hope I didn't hijack your thread with that question.

Lu

About tone--yes. You almost have to know the people you're talking to, and while I can read everyone's back posts and get an idea of what you're all like and trust that I won't be "beat up" by you (so to speak), none of you have a clue what sort of raving lunatic I might be. I forget that. (Not very raving, in case you're wondering. And just faintly lunatic.) I have a friend who sent some stuff to a webzine a couple of years ago. He said they sent him a rejection notice, but then he started finding his writing on a few other websites elsewhere and assumes it was "shared" from his submission. Disquieting stuff. Most publishers wouldn't do that, though, I'd think. They'd be risking getting a bad reputation and losing worthwhile submissions. I struggle, too, sometimes with sharing my writing without having published it somewhere first. On the one hand, I want to write for the fun and joy of it alone. After all, that should be enough, shouldn't it? If one's a "true" writer? But then there's the blood, sweat and tears factor of having put all your effort and time into it and finally producing something you're proud of and risking someone else getting credit for it. Another thing I've wondered about regarding sharing stuff on message boards is that most publications want first rights to the pieces they publish. Some of them include first electronic rights. So if I've posted a piece on a message board for feedback, does that mean I've just disqualified the piece for submission to places that want first electronic rights? Lu

Yep. I think, actually, that he DID admit to an error in the article. (Didn't mean to sound judgemental about that--sorry.)

I love those moments when you read something that is your own heart and spirit put into words. Often they even deepen your own understanding of yourself or of whatever the writer is writing about. Kind of like when you've had a piece of a song running through your head all day but can't remember the rest of it, and then turn on the radio and there it is in its completeness.