Ok, no doubt I will later regret my outspoken nature ... but something is bugging me. It bugged me ALOT with my model Ayesha. So much I considered not releasing her to you all... but I am so glad I did, since I see as of right this moment almost 1000 of you want her :) Whilst I was working her (many months and a goodly number of preview postings) I got some odd comments on race. Those who thought she was not "black" enough. Those who thought she should look maybe more like Nefertiti (the most lovely Nubian Queen to rule Egypt) etc. Some of you chose to attempt to educate this artist in English Literature by sending me synopsis of H. Rider Haggard's best known works, featuring the immortal Ayesha, She Who Must Be Obeyed. Believe me, I have read it. I was NOT making that Ayesha, nor did I need to be told my Ayesha does not look right since she does not look like that one. Ayesha or Aisha, depending on which anglicized spelling you prefer, was the Prophet Mohammed's (Peace be unto him) most favorite wife. It is like the name Heather for Americans. It is VERY common to Muslims. Now I DO NEED and APPRECIATE help whilst modeling to the level of complexity I strove for in Ayesha, but I do NOT need to be told to make her MORE BLACK! She is PERFECT as she is, to me. I saw it in a discussion of what various Asian people should look like in response to someone working on making a modification to Tagosuko. And then Tagosuko's creator a Japanese artist had to say that he DID look like a Japanese man. I now see this going on with Black Canary's lovely black lady texture for Vicki. It is WONDERFUL work. How many of you moaners and whiners (racists) who have your knickers a knot over her could do as well? Maybe Black Canary wont even release her if you keep it up... but then if you suffer the sour grapes syndrome out of jealousy of your own inability to do as well, getting Canary so depressed she does not release the texture is probably your secret goal. Hrm. I AM NOT WHITE! And my bf is African American. I live in an area of my city where sometimes I never even see a white person for days. And let me just say this... brown and black people come in all colours... God likes variety. Stop telling me what Africans look like. Stop telling Black Canary! For those of you who have not needed this rant, and are not on this "blacken up the black folks" bandwagon, pursue your normal lives, enjoy yourselves, ignore my anger, and peace be unto you.

Well said and thank you for Ayesha She is beautiful Stormrage

Bast, since I was among the people who commented on your Ayesha character as well as canarys recent post, Id like to respond. First, my references to Ayeshas origin was more a point of curiosity than of criticism, and I thought you answered my questions about her very appropriately. Second, I dont think anyone here is trying to set forth some model of typical African, African-American, or any other kind of ethnic beauty, for that matter. It's great that this software provides us with the tools to create such variety. Somewhere in Fractal Designs archives are several letters I sent to them after the release of Poser2 asking for models with a greater variety of ethnic and body type features. But I do get upset when anyone suggests that a typical example of black beauty is a fair-complexioned woman with straight hair--and on occasion that has been suggested. Thats a myth thats still pervades popular media--primarily because the folks on Hollywood Blvd. and Madison Ave. that perpetuate those images constitite a fairly homogeneous ethnic and social group themselves. Third, lets not let this degenerate into a your blues aint like mine contest. Theres probably lots of others in this Forum who know what its like to be the only raisin in a rice pudding. Finally, I believe the general spirit here is that all constructive criticism is welcome, and I dont think anyone has said anything that was meant to be hurtful. However, I also believe we it should be remembered that when we post an image at the Forum we are inviting comment, and not all of it will fall on the plus side. This forum would be useless if we were not allowed to disagree with each other. People who have a problem with that should probably say that they prefer not having members react online to their images. Again, folks--lets chill out. Peter (Dr Zik)

Bast, If this wasn't so sad it would be funny... My mother is white Dutch & my father's a South American Indian. I get mistaken for everything from oriental to black to North Amercian Indian as well as East to you name it. At industry trade shows I've had Japanese reps speak to me in Japanese and then look insulted when I don't understand them. When I look in the mirror I don't see any of it. I just see someone rather normally average though I must confess the rest of you look a bit odd to me... People are going to see what they want to see and I doubt this will change anytime soon. Bast, I'd just relax and let us be our silly selves. It's one of the few pleasures we have left...

Well, I just took a look at Ayesha. Ummm... you're not going to want to hear this but I don't think she's green enough. But otherwise she looks quite delightful so I think I'll grab her while I have the chance. Thanks!

Bast, I hope I didn't contribute to any of this. In the thread about the lovely texture map that Black Canary did, I merely commented that all races come in varied shades, and that also includes Caucasian people who range from very pale to deep tan. Black people also have a very diverse range of skin tones. Basically, what I meant was that there was nothing wrong with the texture. It's beautiful as is. I hope to see more diversity as Poser matures. It has long been very monotone and it's great to see more artists contributing to the racial diversity here in this forum. It's exciting to see what folks are doing and I hope to see more as we move along. I can understand your concern, Bast. Those who made what seem like negative comments proably have not considered that some of the racially diverse characters or texture maps might have been created by a member of that race. I believe the members here in the forum are of a diverse mix of races and ethnicities and everything that is contributed to make our art more varied and interesting is more than welcome. Let's see more diversity here. I think your Ayesha character is fascinating and beautiful. I'm glad you offered her. People shouldn't assume that because you gave her a certain name that she has to automatically be exactly like another character with the same name. There a other Melanie's in the world, but none of them look like me. Keep showing us your work, it's fantastic. Melanie

She is perfect in my opinion. As a true artist (like most of us), I guess we have to learn to shut out the opinions and criticisms we don't need. The fact that you've had so many responses at all means Ayesha is an incredible model, whether the comments are good or not-so good.

I will be as plain with this as possible, cause I am not one to mince words :) "Ta hell with the Bozo's" (Ok so I cleaned it up from the original quote) I personally thank you for making excellent textures and characters, and I am sure that there are alot of others too. So Thanks, and keep it up. :)

I've gone out with and loved women of all races. They come in all hues and shades and run a gamut of diversity. Even among my people we have shades ranging from very dark red/brown to those like me that can pass for white. The best skin texture I ever saw was that of a very dark black woman I went out with named Ayiesha. Her skin was smooth, like butter, almost a blue black, with olive undertones. It shone in the sun and softened in shadow. To try to duplicate that skin tone is a task far beyond my meager skills. I respect anyone at all that can make a new character, regardless of race or color. I'm sure you worked your ass off to do it and I would never, ever complain about what someone so generously provided for everyone to use and enjoy.

As far as physical features, I've noticed that Japanese have roundish faces with sharp features, Koreans have squarish faces with softer features, and vietnamese have long thin faces with very sharp features. The other asian variations, I haven't come into contact with enough to have noticed any variations. As far as African American booty, it's not to my taste, but I do know that steatopygia (the correct name for it lol) has for centuries, been a culturally desirable feature. I think it stems from the time when an ample man or woman meant that the family was successfull, ie had plenty to eat. Even when black men choose to go with caucasian women, those women usually have ample bootie. But not all african american people have that bootie. You just can't say something applies to everyone in general, cause the exceptions are always gonna come out and bite yer ass.

Allerleirauh: 90% of the ability to spot the difference in those different asians comes from how they hold themselves. Their expressions, gestures, the way they talk, walk, and so on. Every ethnicity in the world has different rules for these sorts of things. I spent four years in Korea and one thing I found was that I could almost always tell a Korean from a Korean American. It was just incredibly obvious. Even if they did nothing more than stand on a street corner in business clothes. I live in San Francisco where asians are almost the majority race. And you can spot the ethnic group. Though not always via the features. If I was looking at 3 guys in a morgue I may or may not be able to tell. But even 3 guys sleeping and I probably could.

As I said, I would likely regret my outspoken nature before long, and I rather do. I guess my post really should have only said something such as, "when I make a character no matter her or his race, it is a character portrait model, it is not intended to be a one size fits all racial archetype, since I leave that to Zygote who gets paid to do it ;P" I just so would hate to see this place devolve into a place were we nitpick one another to death, on something so minor and really silly as a shade of skin chosen by a portrait character artist. Fair skinned non-white people such as myself must feel just wretched all over the world when they constantly lately hear the opinions that they are not dark enough (maybe therefore not of their race). On the other hand, I know dark skinned people too suffer hurt when they see fair skinned folks glorified by the model industry, hollywood, etc as somehow being "prettier". It is a terribly difficult situation. Do not let racism into this place. Here we are our characters and we are text. We are not any color.

Bast, until we raise our children to be blind to differences in skin, when our conversations don't include terms like fair skinned or dark skinned, black or white, until then, people are going to nitpick about race. Be grateful it's only artistic nitpicking. It could be ignorant bigotry, which, thank the Goddess, we haven't had here yet, at least as far as I've seen. Maybe people nitpick because they don't understand. If so, what a wonderful way to educate them.

Bast, sometimes the viewer thinks that the artist is trying to please them and their perspectives, I rather think that the artist is creating things to please their own view. I like your work, I respect your views as an artist. But in a way the viewer wants to participate, to share thier own reaction. All of it has a place in the appreciation of art. At times like this I think I know why God, the ultimate artist created death, just to get rid of all the niggling about this and that. A new round of fresh eyes to see and create. I hope you will simply continue creating your wonderful works and ignore the "niggling". I am sure many people are just trying to be helpful, and even if they are not, I am sure that there were some nay-sayers that made comments like the pyrimids were ....well just to pyramid shaped to last. We are all a bit competative around here, that keeps the passion in the work. Passion is also apt to creep into the viewers....I see a lot of people here who are very exacting in details, the proportions, lighting, right down to the rust and stress on metals. These people are very exacting on themselves and probably there is like bonestructure points out a need to educate the viewers. I am a viewer of your work as you sometimes may be a viewer of mine. I would hope that any comment I would make would never interfere with your creative process...and I truely appreciate any comments made about my work. We all learn that way, you me and yes even the nigglers....:-)..... Create on!

Oh, she said the N word!! lol. I dunno about anyone else, but when I do a figure, I make someone that I find attractive. We all bring our own sense of beauty and preferences to our art. That's what makes art so great, because it represents all those diverse viewpoints. I have noticed though (shutup, I'm not only starving to death but I'm lonely too), that even the porn sites have very very few real dark skinned women. I don't know if it's true, but I've heard that even in the black culture, which I have studied, lighter skinned man and women are seen as more desirable. That seems pretty hypocritical to me. And no Bast, that comment has nothiong to do with your model. You make what you want to make. Ain't nobody's business but yours

So..... how do you want your humans? Rare (indians) Medium (asians) Poached(caucasians) Well Done (afro americans) I think I've spent too much time outside at the barbeque grill today ;-) ScottA

My grandfather, who was a great potter told me this. Spider Grandmother made all of us out of the clay of the world. Some clay is dark, some clay is light, some clay is red, or white, or black, or yellow. Sone clay will dry without fire, other clay needs to be baked. But the pot, by itself, its color, or shape, means nothing. It's what the pot contains that gives it value.

I lived in Hawaii for 4 years with lots of oriental influence... I'd say more than half the population is Japanese, but lots of Koreans and Filipinos too.... I've notice the Filipinos were much darker in skin tone than the other Orientals... Japanese, some being as pale as me... I can't say I've ever seen an oriental person with yellow skin like I was taught they had as a child....Or a Native American that was red for mighty sakes.. My great, great grandmother was full blooded Cherokee from the Smokey Mountains where I was born and not one person in my family is red.. hmmmm As for African Americans and their skin tones, they come in many different colors shades.. Some are even so pale their WHITE and they have natural deep green to light blue eyes also... Most of us are diverse and not PURE anything!... I was working on an African Amer. texture too and decided to make her eyes blue but I thought someone is gonna say "Hey, she's black, she shouldn't have blue eyes"... Well, that's hawg wash and only shows ignorance... Bast, your character is great and I'm glad to read your pleased with her... I see nothing wrong with her at all ... The important thing is artistic freedom and thought.... If we listen to everything, and do as everyone says we should do, then there would be a sever lack of creativity in this forum... I don't believe art should be dominated by a select few.... Hopefully this won't keep you from sharing your beautiful work with us... ~Cindy

Be happy we can do anything. I remember Poser 1. We were lucky if we could get something that even looked human lol

Bonestructure, I love what you said up a ways. That was incredible. I hope you don't mind if I jot that down and keep it. It was fantastic. Thank you for saying that. Melanie

Wowie! Speaking for me, I'm not mad at anyone about any of this, I just wanted to make things clear by showing what I was up to so there wouldn't be a big battle over skin colors, or have people think that I was saying there's just one kind of "black." I just got a little irritated because when the discussion turned to vanessa williams and whether she's a representative black woman, I envisioned a giant firestorm being kicked off and me in the middle. (I'm irish-american, by the way, so I range from milky to red, depending on sun exposure ;-) Allerleirauh, I actually was planning my next texture to have very dark skin (I won't say a WORD about what race she might be, although folks will be welcome to guess from the render), and everyone, I think I am going to learn from this experience and just give my textures character names, like Bast naming hers Ayesha, and let people figure out the rest for themselves. My problem with doing specific textures is that I'm limited by my photo collection, and unfortunately some "looks" are easier to find pix of than others. Problem number 2 is that I really don't have a whole lot of naked body pictures of women, of any color, (although I have a few in my erotica collection that might do the trick), so I haven't done a body text yet because I'm probably going to have to paint that from scratch. But I will work on it because I want my (nameless lady) head texture to have a matching body texture before I post. I think there's a fine line we all have to walk--and I really don't have any complaints about this, although Bast clearly didn't feel good about her experience--that in ANY creative venture, we're asking people to help us realize our vision, but as inarticulate mortals our art is the only way we can truly communicate that vision. So we show something--a piece of writing, a picture, a recipe, whatever--to our peers and say "what do I need to do to make this more like what's in my head?" and our peers can only answer based on their guesses as to what we're trying to achieve. Which, of course, will be at least 50% what they would try to achieve in our shoes. So I think we all (including me) can cut each other some slack when it comes to creative input. I learned in writing classes that workshopping is really hard, emotionally, and it's not for everyone because some people can be crushed by even well-intentioned criticism, but it also has real rewards because people point things out to you that you're too blind to see. An example in this case is that while folks generally compliment my lighting in my finished renders, I habitually let the application choose the color of the lighting for me. I never noticed that until it was pointed out as a response to my WIP. So to me it's worth the risk of someone guessing wrong about what I'm trying to do...so even if I don't like something I hear, I won't ever change my mind about sharing a texture or whatever. So ya'll can expect my pretty lady to show up sometime this week, once I fix her dang eyebrows and make the seam on her head go away, and pick a name for her! And Bast, please keep sharing your work as well...Ayesha's a beautiful character. Mary

Black-Carnary, I agree... When you ask for opinions then you take what is helpful and leave the rest.. I like to hear opinions of all kinds, but doesn't mean I will agree with all of them .. Some people in my opinion have awful taste or seem pretty ignorant about art.. I know there is nothing I create that everyone is gonna be totally happy with or see it the way I do... I appreciate all opinions though if their intended to help... When I ask for a critique then I'm open to all suggestions and truly am thankful for the people who take their time to give it...

Be my guest Melanie

Hi Folks! I'm with bones, Byte and Allie. Any of us who remember using Poser1 are grateful for what we can do with it now. I hope no one is discouraged from posting because of all the divergent opinions your image might prompt. Peter (Dr Zik)

I think that something that started in anger and annoyance has turned into a wonderful discussion of the celebration of the differences within us all. As an artist, I revel in the differences in color among human beings. I have stared unabashedly at ebony blacks who have had varying degrees of red or blue reflected in their skin texture. Or the porcelain blush of a red-headed Irish lass. Or the coppery tone of a Peruvian native with a mop of shard-like straight black hair. The flare of nostrils, the thickness of lips, the cant of an eyelid, the bump on a nose, the freckles on the wash of a cheek. Such wonders and miracles. What Bonestructure's grandfather said is the truest measure of us all...I live my life by one, and only one, rule and that is to treat others as I hope to be treated myself. Cris

Lorraine wrote: We all learn that way, you me and yes even the nigglers....:-)..... Bonestructure replied: Oh, she said the N word!! lol This is getting very far from topic. The English verb "niggle" = "fuss over small matters" comes from Old Norse (= Viking language) and has no etymological connection with the racist N-word.

uh, anthony, I was joking. It's called satire. Learn it, use it, love it

Hi Folks! Etymology is one of my favorite hobbies, AA. In my classes I have a feature called "The Word of the Week." I've never used that one, but we've had lots of fun with "niggard" and "niggardly." I'm not only in the company of aesthetic giants but literary ones as well! (:-D Peter (Dr Zik)

You know Arthur, when evil is afoot, and you don't have any arms, you gotta use your head. And when evil is ahead, and you're behind, you've gotta do thelegwork. But when you can't get a leg up, you've gotta be hip! You gotta keep your chin up. And kick some...

I was ecstatic to see Ayesha posted. I assumed that she was Egyptian in nature, so the skin tone seemed just right to me. When I get better at textures, I want to create various skin tones. I am a bit sick of seeing just us Whitebreads in the Free Stuff and Galleries. If you go to some of the body builder sites and the porn sites, you will see a lot of pictures that you can use to stitch a person together. (Just have a strong stomache for some of the porn sites. I'm pretty jaded, was all alone in the house, and still was furiously swatting the back button to get rid of some of what I saw.) ;-)

I want to know when someone's going to do one of my people. As far as I can tell there are no realistic Indians anywhere. I'm not even sure how to do it myself, but I'm sure a better modeler than I am would be able to figure out the facial structure, the slighlty shorter and stockier body shape and the dusky skin. I, for one, would love to have models of an indian man and woman to play with. Sure, I could make a texture, but it wouldn't look right as we have a different bone and body and facial structure. Any volunteers?

Then, of course, it would depend on which group. I worked at a national park years ago where there were a lot of indians from various parts of the US-lived with a Papago (now O'Odham I believe)for the summer and there were a number of Navajos, some of the Pueblo people, and then a number of plains indians-the facial structure, body shape, etc.--all were quite different. When I've spent time in NM among the Pueblo people and Navajos, I realize how different they look from the Cherokee of my NC--and esp. different from the plains people and the Iroquois. This would be another one of those situations like Canary's texture probably--it could never be representative of all indians, could it? Diane B

That's true. I tend to think of my own people and out, er, neighbors the Navaho when I think of indians

Crescent wrote If you go to some of the body builder sites and the porn sites, you will see a lot of pictures that you can use to stitch a person together. (Just have a strong stomach for some of the porn sites....) For a clean source for hundreds and hundreds of pictures of hair, look at http://www.wigs.com/