Thanks Jeff, I should've done so myself, but my head has been spinning as of late... And your welcome ThralLord :o) Jack

I work for a web hosting company. If you guys are having problems and this site is costing you money i would like to know how. We charge by over amounts in hd usage our bandwidth has no limit set for our servers. Also If you guys are really in trouble please talk to me maybe i can help. But besides that please dont start making things that were for the community have a price tag that will hurt the community more than prosper i believe. If you need help and want to stop paying for the site please ask for help many here would be more than happy to help. As would I. Im sure i could help. As could others.

I said I was uncomfortable with the tone set above and I still am--I just don't think we should try and divide the community by who contributes to Funstuff and who doesn't. I haven't added to the community by contributing to Funstuff but I've still always felt PART of the community. As to what the site is for--IMO, if you took away the Funstuff, then the site would STILL be a wonderful site. I think many of the people that participate in the forum come here for help or support, not necessarily the free stuff. I can't ever imagine that there won't be lots of places to pick up models because there are people out there that enjoy making models, textures and morphs. In all honesty, I think just a list of links to free downloads would be sufficient for this site--I don't really think the Funstuff is needed--its more convenient, but Rena, for instance, rarely adds anything to the Funstuff but has a ton of stuff on her site. If we start making lists of who has stuff in Funstuff and not OR seeing that as the main reason people come, then its all downhill from here. Yes, I think LOTS of people come here for Funstuff, but the site would continue to thrive without it, at least IMO--probably not 16,000, but those same folks are eating up bandwidth too. So--what IS this site supposed to be for anyway--maybe we DO need a 'mission statement'. (Actually I think there was one once). IMO--the site is for sharing, support, help. As an aside, the store is one way to help support the site so we CAN keep coming back here. If the crew decides to throw in the towel because of the human and financial costs of this site and the lack of support, then I'll be really sad, but understand. Diane B

Diane B, I agree, I like the free stuff, but I come here for the forums and gallerys :-)

To the detractors of the store: Okay after reading this thread My original opinion still stands in the thread The new store, of course it won't ever change because I know how much it costs to run a website and know how much money is involved with just a few members. I ran computations to find out how much it would have cost me on one of my sites if I had 16,000 members and frankly it would have forced me into bankruptcy. I come here for the forums and the galleries. I check out the free stuff but hell I roam the net looking for free stuff not on Renderosity or Renderotica to add to Omni 3D. If all i wanted was free stuff I would look for Lannies links to all the sites and go get them. That's not what I want. I like helping people So I come to the threads to help people with Poser or bryce. I like seeing other peoples art therefore i visit the galleries. I love talking to people so I am usually around in chats and other places. For that I would pay Jack and crew anything. Because they give us the freedom to do all that and more. my personal statistics Free items (granted for non-commercial AND commercial use without my permission) 35 Time used for making free items 3,590 Downloads of free items 459,041 Items for sale 2 Downloads (not sure) Time spent making the three decks (of which two have only been offered for sale) 150 hours (All items I have offered for download have been on Renderosity but moved when I needed room for something new. Most sites don't allow Remote linking and is what caused the move of much of my downloads) Okay so I am probably anal for keeping records of this stuff but I do so there :)~ I have offered all of my stuff for free until now And I changed my free stuff limitations back when people where having hissy's that people demanded credit. I could rightly ask for payment on my props but I don't and I have told people who write me and ask for permission to use my props in commercial ventures that I don't really want payment for them. Now i am offering 2 props that have taken me quite a while to do and basically being told that I am just trying to make money off of Renderosity. That I have never contributed to this community. #1 I have the facts to prove that I have contributed something. (Though I want to do a lot more) #2 this comes from people who have either not contributed anything or just one or two great things. I wanted to buy Vicky. But after buying two new programs that will enable me to create more free stuff I can't. So I decided that my two decks would be for sale The other one (an easier and less extensive deck admittedly) would be offered for free on the free stuff, another would be given in a contest for Omni 3D later this year. I am such a rotten person for even wanting to sell anything. That's all I hear from certain people. All the money I have made has gone into this new passion of mine. But you know what none of the extra props, characters, clothes and hairs is bought It's all free. (except one prop which I won last month)But I would have gladly paid for everything I have downloaded. I use the free stuff instead of buying the props and stuff I want Simply because I decided that I could Contribute more to this community by getting the right programs to offer more and more free stuff. i am not rich. I have a three year old daughter I am making a life worth living for. Yet I can still get the right programs make sure she has all she needs and some of her wants and still be able to contribute to the free stuff. Now I just want to sell a few items to actually be able to do more. Now I just want to actually be able to tell people that I am not going steadily into the hole just because i care about an online community of Poser users who seem to be greedy. I have to look myself in the mirror and say Hey I sold something so I can go buy the newest upgrade of 3D Max so I can build that great prop, clothing for people to use free. Damn I am such an idiot for wanting to sell anything. Rolling eyes Just open all of your eyes and look at the big picture not the little one that tells you you are being stolen from That you will lose your precious free stuff. I will let you in on a secret If you keep pissing off those who offer free things There WILL be less items but it won't be because they are selling them It will be because we are tired of being called idiots and jerks, and thieves. grow up and get a clue. StormRage P.S. I have seen rena only object to the store once maybe twice but haven't seen any other posts by her on this subject. I could be wrong.. While another continues to blast this community about how bad it is to have the store.

I stand by what I said Allerleirauh And it was not exactly directed at You.. Storm

<> Sadly, this latter seems to be what's happening to Willow's PFO site... Allie said: <<There are not 16,000 members of this site because they want to buy bbay products. They are here because of Freestuff.>> Negative. I have bought nothing from the store, because the few items I want are priced out of my current ability to afford, but neither the Free Stuff NOR the Store is a reason why I'm here, or why I continue to come - I found the Original Poser Forum back when it was a single, cohesive unite, years ago when looking for advice to get something (I don't remember what now) to work correctly (the manual for Poser 2 was incorrect on whatever point this was). I found help, and a bunch of strange, temperamental, but helpful people and stayed because of that. The free downloads were a bonus, but not a reason to come here nor to stay. I'll bet money I'm not alone in this.

Chad thanks for your prompt, comprehensive and open reply. Your attitude is a credit to Zygote and will no doubt continue to foster the goodwill I was writing about. I do not want to prolong this thread much longer and keep dragging you back here but in the context of all you have said I would ask you to consider one more thing. I hope you will not find what I suggest below to be the words of an interfering busybody trying to run your company for you. You mentioned that Zygote hoped to make Victoria the new standard for Poser. I do not think that a less than 10% of market penetration will achieve that, you will need a considerably higher %. That is a pity because I would like to see a high-res model become the market standard, sooner rather than later (because of the obvious advantages of many artist users making morphs, textures cloths etc for that new model). I believe that you could still achieve this. If I were running Zygote...(he, he)... Well I would compare my sales split for the periods when Victoria was at the reduced price to when she went up to the full price. If I found that the split dramatically favoured sales during the reduced price period, and that sales during the full price period were more sluggish than anticipated, I would seriously consider bringing her price back down to the reduced price, permanently. Okay I know this poses problems, what do you do about customers that have paid the full price? Well if the split is 90% to 10% or something along those lines, offer them a choice of refund or credit against other Victoria products for the balance. Most will probably opt for the products and the cash will stay in your bank. If you have already covered your development costs and you still hope to make Victoria the standard Poser mesh I think this is a business risk worth considering and taking. For evidence of how this might be received just look above at this post alone, Ikyoto said that $100 meshes were too rich for him, momodot said that $40 was the limit of his discretionary spending (it might rise to $60 for Victoria) and there are many more on this forum who may well be swayed by the reduced price. In addition the goodwill impact would be huge - "company responds to consumer wishes etc.etc." - and it would give you greater future market leverage. I can hear it now. Why is this guy - who says he is planning to go into business himself - helping or offering advice to a future competitor? Any conspiracy theorists out there can have a field day with this one. Well it is simple really. Poser's future has been assured by its purchase from Metacreations. If Larry Weinberg and partners incorporate even some of what has been suggested in the various wishlists into Poser 5, and keep the price down, it has the potential to become the main character modelling and animation program for both amateurs and professionals. That would mean a much larger market for all model makers and plug-in developers who require either high unit price sales or very high volume sales to a mass market to become interested. Such a market means room for many suppliers and does not necessarily mean hostile competition. If this happens I can envisage situations where competing companies could team up to complete set out projects, hire or work partnership deals with talented poser users on projects, and compete honourably for their share of the differing market segments. If it happens Poser goods will probably become a far greater percentage of Zygote's profile and earnings. And if anyone thinks that my opinion about Posers potential is mad just look at Jasc's Paintshop Pro, priced at a fifth of its main competitor Photoshop. I think their boast is 15 million users and rising. So, it is not quite up to Photoshop yet, well the next release or the one after will probably get it on a par with Photoshop. As it stands it is more than enough for most people's needs here, as it does the job equally well. Thanks for your time STORM

"I do not want to prolong this thread much longer and keep dragging you back here but in the context of all you have said I would ask you to consider one more thing." Thanks for emailing me privately to let me know that you'd posted a response here specifically for me, Storm. (I have to admit that after the subject of this thread took this turn, I stopped checking up on it.) "I hope you will not find what I suggest below to be the words of an interfering busybody trying to run your company for you." Not at all. I appreciate your concern and input. (Which seems quite valid.) "If I were running Zygote...(he, he)... Well I would compare my sales split for the periods when Victoria was at the reduced price to when she went up to the full price. If I found that the split dramatically favoured sales during the reduced price period, and that sales during the full price period were more sluggish than anticipated, I would seriously consider bringing her price back down to the reduced price, permanently." While Vicki's current sales are not necessarily less than we expected in the period immediately following her introductory rate, they certainly are drastically fewer. As a matter of policy, Zygote doesn't ever want to bring Vicki's price back down to her introductory special price. (We've been very happy with this system, and want always to reward those who buy early.) However, I have proposed your idea to the management, and we are considering lowering the permanent price. Though we wouldn't go down to the original $59.95, $69.95 or even $64.95 might be possible. At this point we're trying to estimate whether this price drop would make at least as much money as the current price, and pay for the refunds we would have to offer those who have paid $99.95 in the interim. (Good idea with the credit option, too, by the way.) "If you have already covered your development costs and you still hope to make Victoria the standard Poser mesh I think this is a business risk worth considering and taking." I agree, Storm. We'll see how management votes. For the record, we have already decided that the Millennium Man should be less expensive if possible. Despite our expectation that fewer Poser users will purchase a male model than a female model, we realize that these products will upsell one another and should be affordable together. "For evidence of how this might be received just look above at this post alone, Ikyoto said that $100 meshes were too rich for him, momodot said that $40 was the limit of his discretionary spending (it might rise to $60 for Victoria) and there are many more on this forum who may well be swayed by the reduced price. "In addition the goodwill impact would be huge - "company responds to consumer wishes etc.etc." - and it would give you greater future market leverage." It does seem that $100 is a cut-off number. (Placebo effect as well as wallet depth?) I'm sure you understand that it's difficult to calculate how many more Victoria's we'll sell at which specific lower prices, but again, I'm inclined to agree with you that some reduction would be good. Also, we've discussed the growing Poser market/Zygote customer base, which I expect will expand again with the release of Poser5. Because Victoria (and her man) will not be included in Poser, we hope for an expanding market to which we can sell Zygote's existing models. While a price reduction on Victoria may not make its money back immediately, we may see positive results a year from now, once more people use Poser and Zygote's products. "... [Poser 5] has the potential to become the main character modelling and animation program for both amateurs and professionals." While that's still a way off, we at Zygote agree that Poser has a lot of potential, and are excited for the expansion of its capabilities and market. "That would mean a much larger market for all model makers and plug-in developers who require either high unit price sales or very high volume sales to a mass market to become interested. "I also can envisage situations where seperate companies could team up to complete projects, hire or work partnership deals with talented poser users on projects, and compete honourably for their share of the differing market segments." Absolutely. Zygote has already had Poser product business/partnership relationships with Metacreations, House of Moves, The Forge Studios, and Lipsinc. Also, we've begun to broker the Poser products of individuals in our online store. I imagine that in a couple of years we will be working in cooperation with many more companies and individuals specifically marketing Poser products and plug-ins. I look forward to getting better acquainted with you and your work, too, Storm. Thanks for your suggestions and ideas. (Since this thread has shifted focus so dramatically, please contact me privately if you have any further thoughts on the issue.) I will inform you all as to what develops. -Chad Smith Zygote Media Group