Thanks for the link. That explains why I had such a problem with iBill awhile back. I had used it to subscribe to an art site that was basically using it to pay bandwidth charges, as well as keep minors out. (Though the material on the site was less "adult" than you can see at Rotica in the free section, and mostly less than you see here at Rosity even.) I'd subscribed for several years, then all of a sudden, iBill charged my card, but I couldn't get access. And the site owner couldn't fix it. Did a chargeback, of course, and avoided iBill like the plague ever after. I heard later that the problem was due to changes in the rules regarding "adult" web sites.

Thanks for the warning Exotica. I just closed my PayPal account. I'd been considering doing so since Ebay gave my phone number to a seller who ripped me off. I don't like the way these two partner companies do business.

This is all very interesting and very disturbing. Getting your own indivudual merchant bank isn't always that easy. Especially in NY, there are specifications that also have to be met and if you don't meet them, you are out of luck. Exotica I am sorry for your situation and do feel for your anxiety. I am also thankful to you bringing this topic to our attention. Unfortunately for us, PayPal is what we have to use right now, although we do offer checks or money orders, which come in handy, cause you still all get your orders filled after you contact us, it is us that is taking the risk waiting to see if a check clears, but that is the risk we are willing to take. But again I have to state that we have not had any problems with Paypal, that is not to say others have not. Just personally we have not. They have done right by us, but I do hear all of your concerns. Again, Exotica thank you for alerting all this to us...it is a good thing to review situtaions all the time. Sharen

Hmmm. eBay now owns Paypal. eBay has a massive "Adult" section with REAL porn on VHS, DVD, magazines, toys, and so forth. Does this mean that eBay has to close this section to adhere to its own Draconian rules? Hmmm... I abhor quoting the Bible, but... "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..." ;) Or better yet (and much more appropo)... Mat 7:3-5 (Jer) "Why do you observe the splinter in you brother's eye and never notice the plank in your own? How dare you say to your brother, 'Let me take the splinter out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own? Hypocrite! Take the plank out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother's eye." P.S.: And I'm an atheist. :)

you probably won't ever have a problem on your site, Sharen. Most people don't. Its just important not to break the adult rules on Paypal, or this kind of thing happens. I just wanted to clarify its not Paypal, its a much bigger problem with VISA cracking down on sites with adult content. It is related to the high chargebacks the adult sites get. the problem is... its hard for a clerk to know a difference between an adult site and a poser site that's just doing a little fun sexy images and offering a few textures/models for sale. The idiots making the decisions about the TOS are only following the rule to the letter, not thinking about why the rule was imposed. Chargebacks are not a huge problem on most of the Poser sites that I'm aware of, not like it is with adult subscription sites. But the rules don't take the difference into account.

Ebay, the seller and the buyer determine how funds are transferred, you don't use your VISA there unless the seller has a merchant account or Paypal. So Ebay can do those things. When did Ebay start allowing adult items again, anyway... I remember they were banned for a while. I've been out of the loop on Ebay, I don't use it.

But they OWN Paypal! Whether or not this process is being spurred by VISA is inconsequential. Paypal abides (by freezing suspect accounts). eBay owns Paypal. eBay must abide. Otherwise they are being hypocritical - i.e. using a double standard. Yes, they have a "Mature Audiences" section under "Everything Else" with 60000+ items.

I had one problem using them and that was it for me. All my info for a $2.00 purchase. That's why I send PhilC Money Orders!

VISA is totally why this is going on... but go on ranting about nonsense anyway. I'm not defending Paypal. I'm just noting that the situations with IBill and countless other third party processors aren't any different. So if you think the grass is greener with a different third party billing system, think again. :/ If they take VISA, expect this problem at some point.

Visa may be why the crackdown on "adult" sites is happening, but PayPal is why accounts get frozen for no reason and their money kept indefinitely. Banks, at least in the U.S., are regulated by federal law. PayPal isn't. People think of PayPal as being like a bank, but it isn't one. Something to keep in mind.

pff it just sux.. i am fed up wih this rampaging puritanismo-capitalism madness :( how it can apply to foreign coutnries ? i mean, here we are not under the rule of USA governemetn so far (or somone lied me...) yet i have a visa... how can it works ? also i intended to order adult movies on asiatic webstores i spotted, i guess that now, half the good sites lies in ruin ! 750$/ to be allowed to sell bunch of naked skins ? it is insane. Sure it is the return of black market, mano a mano deals, and paper money.. what a regression. It souns liek the time of prohibition but on adult things, not alcoohol now i cannto say how all the story makes me sick, i was even unaware before this thread, the world had gone nut, don't wanna live in this one... where is the shuttle for space ? could not talk anymore withou using foul words. anyway a little joke bfore leaving: "Puritanism is the haunting fear that SOMEONE, somewhere, MIGHT be happy !"

Attached Link: http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/5810401.htm

Nonsense... Stupid... ??? Whether or not this is spurred by VISA, (comma) PAYPAL is freezing accounts because sites are breaking their TOS. Verstand? Wakarimashitaka? Comprendo? Unless I'm mistaken (being both a long time eBay user and Paypal member), eBay accepts Paypal payments for items in auctions (as well as VISA credit card payments) - unless it has changed this policy within the past couple of months, since I last used Paypal on my eBay auctions. If eBay members sell items that are against Paypal's TOS and accept Paypal (yes, or VISA) as payment, then those items must be removed in order to keep with Paypal's TOS. 60,000+ items says otherwise. Oh, and I explicitly say VISA as an appropriate form of payment for explicitly adult material on eBay. How is eBay exempt from this?

Oh, and it's over 82000 items. ;)

Hmmm. If I understand the articles bijouchat posted correctly, it's capitalism, not puritanism, that's to blame. Adult sites have a high number of chargebacks. When the porn site charge shows up on the bill, the husband claims it must be a mistake, to deflect his wife's ire. And Visa has to eat the loss. That's the reason they are cracking down on adult sites. And eBay is now not allowing PayPal to be used to purchase adult items, even on their own site. I would guess that means that will apply to Rosity, too, eventually. If you want to buy a nekkid Vicky texture, you won't be able to use PayPal. But that still doesn't excuse PayPal's shenananigans. They sound like an Enron in the making.

and I wondered why I just give stuff away..;)

AMEX did the same thing about 2-3 years ago. At the time, the actions of American Express caused a bit of a stir. And, yes, the problem centered around chargebacks to adult sites. Looks like VISA is following the example of American Express........

Attached Link: http://www.stormpay.com/

SAMS3D I'm in the same boat as you. Over 6 years of Paypal usage and no issues. But I never actually have money sitting in it, I just use it to pay stuff.

"Adult sites have a high number of chargebacks. When the porn site charge shows up on the bill, the husband claims it must be a mistake, to deflect his wife's ire. And Visa has to eat the loss. That's the reason they are cracking down on adult sites." What's that got to do with PhilC's naked meshes that don't even have genitals, though? bonni

......has no one just called the cops and got them done for fraud? no 'taking you to court' crap. just plain called the cops. tis fraud, and I believe the US has a Computers and Misuse act the same as the UK's?

Bonni, I'd love to know if that's PayPal's or Visa's definition of porn. :-) I mean, I know they have to draw the line somewhere, but really! Khai, PayPal actually takes your money in the guise of protecting you from fraud. They claim they are freezing your account because of suspected fraud or something like that. What are the cops going to do then? And you'd have to call the FBI, not the cops, because in most cases, it's outside the local jurisdiction. However, if you read the PayPalSucks.com site, they do say that hiring a lawyer is the best way to get your money back. Unfortunately, in most cases that costs more than PayPal took from you to begin with.

Thank you Randy for the explanations. And I'd agree that it's capitalism as well. Still, how does this transfer to sites with questionably adult content and especially to 3D models? I could see it if it were www.poserhotwomanactionrenders.com, but this is getting ridiculous. ;) Additionally, bijouchat's hypothesis doesn't totally jive. If it's really VISA prompting these actions, then why does eBay accept VISA payments for outright pornography? They do, I checked a dozen of the Mature Audiences auctions (T&A images and explicit descriptions) and they accept VISA for payment. Very strange. Since I don't sell porn on eBay, I wouldn't know about the non-use of Paypal restriction there. :) Nonetheless, the entire affair that started this smacks of censorship without representation. They neither warn, justify, nor allow a fair response. How obstentatiously rude and Draconian can it get?

Just one other note... Who would buy sex toys on eBay? EEEUUUUWWWW! Who knows where they've been!? shudder ;-P bonni

You can use Visa to buy porn (including on eBay), but not PayPal. Strange, isn't it? I guess because it's so much harder to get a Visa merchant account, with more hoops to jump through, not to mention higher fees, that they're more willing to take the risk of "adult" transactions than with "third party" billers like PayPal. That's the difference. That's why I think eventually we'll be able to buy some items with PayPal here at Rosity, while some items will be credit cards only.

' And you'd have to call the FBI, not the cops, because in most cases, it's outside the local jurisdiction. However, if you read the PayPalSucks.com site, they do say that hiring a lawyer is the best way to get your money back. Unfortunately, in most cases that costs more than PayPal took from you to begin with.' strange.. here in the UK, if a company does that to a person, then under the Computers and Misuse Act and the credit and consumers act, they get taken to court. no matter if they are in the UK or not (ever hear of extradition treaties). seems that the legal system is failing you all. call the FBI instead of whining. use the LAW. it's what it's there for!

Unfortunately, the FBI is too busy chasing terrorists these days. When they aren't investigating presidential sex lives, that is. :-P They aren't going to make a federal case out of this. Not unless Congress gets involved.

Regarding Ebay I can add my 2 cents here. I live in Austria, south of Germany. Our mother tongue is also German. There is an Austrian Ebay and I wanted to sell an old computer game (Star Wars - Dark Forces). Ebay stopped that, because this item is only allowed to be sold to people over 16 years according to German law, and they decided not to deal with such items, because they cannot check the age of the buyer. I asked them, why this should concern me, because there is not such a law in Austria and I wanted to sell it to someone in Austria. They behaved very stupid and offered me to close my account. I think it is a principle problem, that there is no internet law, but only national laws, depending where the main company resides. As US companies rule a lot of the business (credit cards, PayPal, Ebay,...) I wonder, if there will ever be an special internet closed for US citizens. US companies and law cannot dictate the internet forever.

If it's really VISA prompting these actions, then why does eBay accept VISA payments for outright pornography?

As I understand the issue, the chargebacks only concern "intangibles" - items such as website memberships.

Payments for actual hard "adult" merchandise - i.e. DVD's, magazines, videotapes - aren't involved.

Perhaps 3D meshes are considered to be "hard" merchandise, and not intangibles.

You can still buy adult web site memberships with Visa. Just not with PayPal. I think the difference is the higher fees and such they charge for Visa merchant accounts. They're more willing to take on the risk of chargebacks. IOW, the very thing we like about PayPal - that it's a way for the "little guy" to accept credit card payments - is what Visa doesn't like. They don't make enough money off PayPal transactions to make it worth their while, given the risk.

When AMEX ruled out adult internet charges, this action ONLY excluded "intangibles". AMEX still allowed the on-line purchase of "adult" merchandise - it just had to be "real" merchandise.

AMEX also indicated that VISA was "welcome to" the $3B/yr (at that time) adult website business...... The chargebacks must have been a HUGE problem for AMEX to walk away from that kind of money.

Actually, that makes more sense to me than the way Visa's going about it. Deciding whether or not something is "intangible" seems like it would be a lot easier than deciding whether or not it's "adult." Visa's rules are just silly. Pinups are only okay if they're "vintage" -- at least 10 years old? But PhilC's naked mesh is verboten? Bizarre.

This chargeback thing is also why DAZ cannot take credit cards for the Platinum Club 1 year membership??? Hmm...

There seem to be two separate situations here, but they're being mistakenly blended into one. The no-no on 'internet porn' by credit card companies was a specific resonse by visa, amex, et al to combat fly-by-night porn sites making off with membership monies. What would happen was this. A porn site would open up advertising yearly membership (payable by credit card). They would show initial content, promise weekly updates, and after the first month or two, when they'd taken in a few thousand membership fee payments, they would vanish into the night, taking the loot with them. The members, naturally, would kick up merry hell with visa, and halt the payments. This became so common that the credit card companies decided to levy huge cash deposits from ALL internet sites running yearly membership schemes. Enter DAZ into the picture. DAZ were being told by visa that if they wanted to continue to run the Platinum Club and accept the payments by c/c, they would have to pay visa a deposit of X (I heard figures of $500,000 being bandied around). DAZ told then to shove it and that's why they introduced the monthly payment scheme and/or money orders and what-not for the yearly payments. Anything except c/c. But.... none of this has anything to do with PayPal freezing people's accounts arbitarily. There MAY be a connection with Exotica's situation, but PayPal seems to have it's own methods of making money which have very little to do with standard business practice. For example, PP charges the SAME fees to people with non credit card accounts, as those WITH c/c. If you use a c/c, visa or whoever levies a charge from PP, which they in turn, pass on to you. Non c/c accounts are charged EXACTLY the same fees, despite the fact that there's no fee to charge. Then there's the '180 days' scam. PP seems to freeze a percentage of accounts almost at random, usually for 'suspicious activities'. Some of these accounts are unfrozen (again at random) after complaints, but most are kept frozen for 180 days. What happens to your money during that time? Good question. PayPal are earning interest on it, that's what happens. It may not be much on an account of $20, but for a company doing in excess of $16 million a DAY in transactions, the percentage of frozen accounts and the amounts involved must be pretty considerable. Of course, none of this has actually been proved yet in a court of law, otherwise the PayPal staff would all be in orange jumpsuits. But if even 1% of the stories posted are true, then the PP execs deserve to be in jail. mac

Attached Link: http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,36608,00.html

The central issue had to do with "disputed transactions". I.E. - chargebacks.

Purely a money issue.

Apparently, VISA is struggling with the same issue.

And, yes, fraud is a major part of the problem.

First of all...my site is NOT A PORN SITE!!!! I had a button under a plant prop set and pose set for crying out loud! Secondly, the images I have in my gallery are pretty tame if you ask me. If there is any nudity, it's women's - errr make that a 3D MODEL's - breasts, nothing below the waist. I have 1 (2 at most) image in the entire gallery that shows full nudity. These ARE NOT REAL PEOPLE! Someone needs to get their head out of their ass. Third...why the hell is Renderosity allowed to sell everything and anything through PayPal. If someone is going to "label" sites as porn sites I'd much quicker label Rosity as one before I'd label mine as such. I think most people would agree. One example tells it all - the genital props. Are these not "adult content"? Not to mention that PayPal specifically states: "Items not falling under this category and which are therefore not permitted include items which are intended for use in a sexual setting (such as "bondage" and "fetish" items), items which display sexual activity or portray human genitalia in a "life-like" or realistic fashion, and vibrators intended for use in sexual activity (as opposed to ordinary massagers)." Don't even try to tell me that PayPal doesn't know about Renderosity and the like. I don't give a crap if it's Visa or PayPal - PayPal is STEALING money! That lawsuit linked to above - the last update was December 2003 - last month. I have recently gotten into collecting books. I have had a look around on eBay. Although I didn't look at any "adult" stuff, I believe it's there and I wouldn't doubt for a minute that people are buying it with PayPal!! Nearly every merchant I looked at ONLY accepts PayPal! "...call the FBI instead of whining. use the LAW. it's what it's there for!" I'm not whining. I'm telling people MY story. You can choose to believe or not believe what's on the other sites but I've posted my actual email exchanges with PayPal. I'm not about to hire a lawyer to get them to reinstate my account when I refuse to give them another red cent. That would be a pretty stupid thing to do. And just for the record, I could care less who's behind it. I could care less if PayPal allows "adult" sites to offer PayPal. The point is that they are thieves. And they are hypocrites. The very fact that Renderosity accepts PayPal should tell you at least that much. Oh, and let me add that in the 3 years I had my PayPal account, I conducted only about 10-15 transactions - only 5 involved me receiving any money and that was under the name of my old website. It says right on your account whether you're verified or not and how many transactions you have received money for - mine says "Verified (5)" So folks, if it ain't about porn - no porn on my site - and it ain't about money - they barely made enough off of me to buy a box of donuts - then it seems to me to be a case of good old fashioned FRAUD & THIEVERY!

I can't speak to the Paypal situation -- other than to say that I've never personally had a problem with them. But, that doesn't negate anyone else's complaints about Paypal. I don't plan to give PP my bank account info.

I think they just haven't caught up with Renderosity yet. Phil was made to put fig leaves over his nude polygons. If even eBay - PayPal's owner - isn't allowed to sell adult material via PayPal, no one will be allowed to. It's just a matter of time.

Ok, well, maybe they haven't caught up with Renderosity yet, maybe but not bloody likely! I have a similar thread going on in the merchant's forum and not a single word has been written by Renderosity staff/admin even when specifically addressed. Now I find out that Renderotica accepts PayPal! They're either very, very stupid or very, very sneaky. Please note that I have had my PayPal business account for 3 years. ONE DAY AFTER I put up a PayPal logo my account gets frozen....and, well, you all know the rest. Now consider the fact that nowhere on either Renderosity or Renderotica is PayPal advertised as being an acceptable form of payment UNTIL you get at the checkout! Think about that for a bit.... Meanwhile, I'm getting on the phone with my local news station and then hunting down the phone number or email address for "60 Minutes". They may be very, very interested in what all has been discovered here today.

ooho come on, they spotted your dangerous pornterrorist website becaue of the huge threat it presented to our world, but they would "miss" somethign as big and flashy as renderosity ? no, believe me dude, they sure know what renderosity is doing.. the key word here is "hyppocrisy".. when you confront them to their own shortcomings, failign logic and lies, they threaen or punish you even harder. That is the mark that admit hyppocrisy when it fails to justify itself :) of by the way, you even can get interest in less than 180 days. Here in my country the national service provider for posta mail and public bank account do this every day. They hold our money a bit, maybe 1 week or two, but if you gather all the time they do it and the sums involved, they put us into problemes (sometime you have a short "money time schedule"), but they slowly CREATE money for them ou of thin air/magic, using ours to do so... it is common method and abuse and you cannot do anything against that, except putting your savings in your blanket !

this problem has been happening since before visa instituted their policies. Paypal has been doing this since they opened. Visa only recently (within the last year) adopted their policies.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together. I was honest and listed my site in their shops directory. Other people (the little guys, like me) get away with it by purposely NOT listing their sites. The big places like Renderosity & Renderotica pass on some hefty fees for the "priveledge" of doing business with them. All of the other stuff - the "freezing" of accounts, earning interest on other people's money (they say they do this right in their TOS folks), the hipocracy, discrimination, etc., etc., ...just icing on the cake. They're criminals imo. I hope this class action suit catches up with them.

Thanks for all the warnings!! I just closed my account - I had questions regarding their recent practices one of which being they told me I couldn't use my CC anymore and that I would HAVE to give them my bank account information. Well if my CC company says I can charge and they do then there is no reason for them to say I can't. This was IMHO suspicious and after reading all of this enough to say ahhhh buh bye now...............

Hm... since you all seem well informed on the topic, what about sites "paypal-like" ? Any input on 2CheckOut.com ? I personally never use sites like that. I already have given up several subscriptions i was interested in just because the only way to get it was through PayPal (i am ethically against this "third party system"). Now i'm very interested in a site using only 2CheckOut.com. I have no idea on how that company works. So i'd appreciate if some of you could give me first hand information on it. Thanks in advance

Hi Merlin I have used that system for a couple of things and have had no trouble with it and I haven't heard anything bad through the grapevine. I believe they work like PP but I am not 100% sure. Hope this little bit of feedback helps.

A caution here, there are scams that are targetting paypal, mostly because it's so easy to do. If you get an email request supposedly from paypal, check the header, the full header. If the "From" addy has what looks like paypal, but then has another string of symbols and numbers behind it, paypal had nothing to do with it, it came from a scam. The legitimate paypal addy is there, but code inserted to block it, and redirect to the second half of the addy which is only someone wanting your card and/or bank account numbers. ONe other way to tell if it's legit, put your cursor over the logo. Legitimate will be generated in html, the scams use a graphic file. If the balloon says it's a graphic, it's a scam.

Why go through all of that trouble? When I "supposedly" receive an email from Paypal, first thing is to see what it says. Any requests for personal account information are bogus scam-sucking ... well, I won't go any further. Paypal, like eBay and many other legit sites dealing with money, will NEVER ask you for this information in a way that could be compromising, like by email. These are filed in the bit-bucket. Otherwise, when the scam is good, I go directly to the REAL Paypal and check out the situation directly myself. NEVER trust emails. NEVER open attachments. ALWAYS save expected attachments and open with the appropriate application.