How come no new screen shots? No reports on DS's workings? Isn't there anything new to talk about? No renders to show off?

Nope. It was sorta stupid to have a group made on an alpha that hadn't been released to everyone yet, and until there's some good doc for it, there probably won't be much. NOt to mention that the render engine dies of old age very quickly. I dumped it out, probably a lot of others have too.

I just got a notice that DAZ has released a mimic plugin for lightwave3D it seems they are focusing on a market different from the poser base in the future.

I guess all those predictions of Daz Studio taking the Poser world by storm and becoming the be-all and end-all of Poserdom were a bit premature. And with P5 getting better thanks to its new owners, maybe Curious Labs is going to have the last laugh after all.

I never even got it to install, so I've got no opinion on the actual software.

From a commercial point of view though, I doubt that DAZ ever wanted to go after CL as an out and out competitor. If they got wind of the German parent company being in trouble though, as I'm sure they did - if you're business is that reliant on the health of another, you make pretty sure you know that kind of stuff - they really had no choice but to start work on a Poser replacement. After all, there's not much future in being a content provider for defunct software, now is there?

I don't know what kind of shape the new CL parent company is in, but just Being Japanese makes them much less statistically likely to go bust than a US or European company. So, if I were DAZ, I'd certainly concentrate my development efforts on diversifying a bit, lip syncing for Lightwave's a start, what about Max/Character Studio?

John

DAZ posted an update recently. For those who have not read it, they are waiting on an update from 3Delight before they release another version. They also said something about being a month away from the first full beta release. DAZ is also going to be announcing a relationship with Newtek next month.

dallas40m, I see no "flak" in the thread you started at DAZ, simply an answer to your very general question. the Program is still very much an alpha, it is being worked on but no one knows exactly when it will go beta, thus the answer that an announcement will be made when the program goes to beta. that is all that anyone can promise at this point. anything more is just speculation.

For everybody's information and enlightenment, here's the exact post from Steve Kondris at Daz, from the Daz Studio Update Forum: Posted: 28 Feb 2004 23:41 Post subject: Recent road blocks -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, it's definitely time for some more information on DAZ|Studio, so I'll share with you all I know: We've recently run into a few render engine issues. Specifically, we're waiting for a critical update from 3Delight so that we can reenable bump and displacement maps in the renders. There was work to be done on both sides, and DAZ's has been finished and in the hands of 3Delight for quite some time now. Unfortunately, we do not have their fixes yet. This has been making it very difficult for us to finish up another release. Meanwhile we've been continuing work on the compatibility issues surrounding Poser4 products, as well as finishing up what is considered the core of DAZ|Studio. Part of that is finalizing the DAZ|Studio file format, as well as completing the foundation necessary for additional plugin modules, that DAZ and 3rd party developers will create, to operate correctly with the DAZ|Studio core application. We're looking to get another build out just as soon as possible so that everyone can do some more thorough testing for us. Once we have a release date for that, we'll make sure we post it so you know when to expect it. That's all I have to share for now, but I hope to have another update sometime next week. Thanks, Steve

"Specifically, we're waiting for a critical update from 3Delight so that we can reenable bump and displacement maps in the renders." These guys are funny. The reason that bumps and displacements don't work is not 3Delight's fault but a bug in their shader. It takes just minutes to fix a few lines in their dzdefault shader and bumps and displacements both work fine again.

Actually, the "bug in the shader" isn't a bug at all, we disabled bump and displacement in our shader file because the 3Delight dll doesn't execute that portion of the shader file properly. So instead of having everyone complain about funky shadows and faceting, we turned off that portion of the renders. Thanks, Steve Kondris

Okay, yes, the disabled features were clearly listed, good to know that some people read that. ;)

Unfortunately, there is nothing documented anywhere that is very explicit on the problem that's currently being addressed. Interestingly, your above screen shot illustrates one of the recent problems we uncovered.

Here's another look at your screenshot:

Notice all those little black dots inside those red circles? Those aren't supposed to be there. They're artifacts at the verticies. This is apparent on a low poly sphere, and it becomes more noticable with resolution.

Here's an example:

The image of the puppy uses the "fixed" sdl which you compiled and emailed to us.

While we appreciate your time in trying to help us solve this problem, there's no way you can adequately understand the exact problems. Of course, you're not part of our development team, so there's not much that you could know of the specific bugs, but we do appreciate your concern and interest with the issues.

The 3Delight development team has looked at the dzdefault shader source... paying specific attention to the displacement/bump code, not to mention versions of that shader that only contain the displacement/bump code; to narrow down the problem. And yes, a couple trivial changes had to be made to the shader as a result of some changes made with when/if vectors are normalized by default, however, this then uncovered yet another bug which has not been found to be in the shader code, but so far seems to be something that 3Delight must remedy, hence DAZ is waiting for the next fix.

This is not unheard of for pre-beta software, that some bugs be found. Bug are found, then fixed, only to uncover yet another puzzle. Over the past few days, 3Delight's team has sent us some new dll's. Unfortunately, the problem is still outstanding, and we're awaiting a final fix to this problem.

We welcome any other ideas that the community might have. The shader file is very thoroughly documented, and there's nothing cryptic about how it operates (well, it's cryptic to me, but our dev team assures me that there's nothing cryptic for those who know shader code ;) ).

Presently, we are working closely with 3Delight to get this remedied, just as soon as it is, we'll let you all know.

Thanks,

Steve Kondris
DAZ Productions, Inc.

Aww poor puppy has the measles. ;)

--"I guess all those predictions of Daz Studio taking the Poser world by storm and becoming the be-all and end-all of Poserdom were a bit premature." Not that DAZ ever said that's what they're up to. It was WE, the community members, desperate because Poser 5 initial release was such a buggy disaster, that started praying that Studio would allow us to dump Poser completely. I'm sure DAZ folks have been listening. ;-) - - - - - I could care less about rendering bugs in an alpha. Yah, its alpha. What troubles me more is that the role I see for the "base" version of Studio is as an entree to low-cost 3D creativity tools. Bring in more folks. Anyone here believe that the current interface has the right appeal to newbies? I wasn't going to comment as long as it was alpha, but if we're now talking of approaching beta -- this is a serious matter. I'm not going to say anything SPECIFIC about how I would change the interface. I'd rather sell my own user-friendly tools. But I decided a friendly nudge to stimulate public discussion is in everyone's interest.

Attached Link: http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=1934

--"I guess all those predictions of Daz Studio taking the Poser world by storm and becoming the be-all and end-all of Poserdom were a bit premature." Not that DAZ ever said that's what they're up to. It was WE, the community members, desperate because Poser 5 initial release was such a buggy disaster, that started praying that Studio would allow us to dump Poser completely. I'm sure DAZ folks have been listening. ;-) _________________________________________ Yeah, actually I was using irony to make my point. I thought at the time that the Poser user base DID overreact and prematurely annoint poor Daz Studio as the successor to Poser. And it amuses me that none of that has come to pass. But I never accused Daz of making any statements touting their new app as Poser's Replacement. Daz has always been very cool that way.

"Anyone here believe that the current interface has the right appeal to newbies?" Yes I do :-) Frankly interface design needs to have functionality that optimizes screen space. Daz studio was obviously inspired by Lightwave 3D which is a GOOD thing IMHO. I see NO reason for DAZ to emulate some goofy ,Kai kraus styled, big button,tinkertoy interface to try and spare poser users culture shock :-) Daz is looking to the future Not the past!! and frankly its very obvious that the DAZ target audience is not 3d "Newbies" but users of other programs (lightwave etc) who will havee access to all of this great DAZ content that was once only available to poser users.

Well, on a personal note I think the interface is godawful and will probably be the one thing that lets the package down. I thought the original Poser interface was atrocious too. I don't know why it is that every software developer feels the need to invent a new interface all the time these days. Not only are they confusing to newbies and even experienced users of similar packages, they frequently experience severe bugginess. One of the main points of developing a complex GUI like those which come with Windows (and Mac equivalents) is to help standardize the environment and make it familiar and welcoming to the user. Sure, even Windows et al aren't perfect but they are the result of a huge amount of research and investment of time and money. To believe that you can improve on it with only a fraction of those resources strikes me as a bit naive. And surely the investment you do make in reinventing the interface could be better directed towards improving the core functionality of the software you're producing? IMHO this trend for ever-different interfaces is a retrograde step and I wish it would stop. Just my two pennyworth...

jj--"I was using irony to make my point." LOL. Sorry, I tend to be literal. Misread where you were coming from.

me--"Anyone here believe that the current interface has the right appeal to newbies?" wolf--"Yes I do :-) ... DAZ target audience is not 3d "Newbies" but users of other programs (lightwave etc)" Are you saying that it is an appropriate interface for those new to Poser and DAZ, hence "newbies" in that sense ... but you see them as coming from other tools such as LightWave? OK, by that reasoning, I agree. That is a fine strategy. Just not what I thought DAZ was up to. And not what I'm personally interested in. - - - - - I was thinking of DAZ pronouncements a year ago that they were hoping for a million downloads of Studio within the first twelve months. That suggested reaching out to people who aren't currently users of ANY 3D tools. This is consistent with "base" version being FREE: reach entirely new customers, new to this whole 3D creativity stuff. It wouldn't need to be FREE, to be affordable by LightWave users!!! - - - - - --"I see NO reason for DAZ to emulate some goofy ,Kai kraus styled, big button,tinkertoy interface" Nor do I. Kai has a terrible sense of interface design. Sadly, most people think interface design has to do with what you see on the surface. In reality, it has more to do with PROCESS -- what the users are trying to accomplish. How to stitch together functionality, to match the users' goals. It is extremely difficult to make a program with powerful capabilities, that doesn't overwhelm people who are not already power users of tools. But it can be done. That is what I was referring to. People coming from LightWave: no problem, they'll master this in a snap :-)

electranaut--"...I think the interface is godawful and will probably be the one thing that lets the package down. ...every software developer feels the need to invent a new interface... confusing to newbies and even experienced users of similar packages... One of the main points of developing a complex GUI like ... Windows ... is to help standardize the environment and make it familiar and welcoming to the user..." I wholeheartedly agree.

"It wouldn't need to be FREE, to be affordable by LightWave users!!!" But it helps to make it free to introduce LW users to DAZ content that they can use in Lightwave without all kinds of tedious re-rigging etc. DAZ has announced an OFFICIAL partnership with Newtek ,the makers of lightwave, they have already released a version of mimic for lightwave3D along with a free DAZ model already rigged for use in Lightwave and the first export plugin for Daz Studio will be for Lightwave. Poser newbies can go buy "poser artist" and stock their runtimes withthe Glut of free stuff out there. :-) or buy those DAZ items that are still compatible. We are entering an era of 64 bit desktop computing from Apple and AMD and as a content maker its wise for DAZ to target markets where the software can utilize the awesome computing power that's available. NOT continue to tie thier fortunes to a non hardware accelerated program based on early 1990's technology. if that means using a modern interface design with nonmodal panels unfamiliar to poser users then so be it.

I can understand where you are coming from but I don't think there's any need whatsoever to design a custom interface. I would imagine that there would be far more users of DAZ Studio who don't- and never will- use Lightwave. One of my biggest hopes when I first learnt of DAZ Studio was that, at last, we might see a Poser-style program that used the Windows API, which seems perfectly good enough for other developers. In fact, the use of a more standard interface has been one of the considerations for the next iteration of Poser itself. 3ds max is a perfect example of how to create an extremely advanced piece of software that someone who has only used MS Word before can find SOME familiarity with, so it's not impossible. I myself have used Lightwave in the past and didn't like it, for all the same reasons; it's a non-standard interface. This MAY be fine for professionals who work with one main package for a living, but it's not at all appealing in hobbyist software. (I suppose I could just forgive DAZ the use of a custom interface if it were attractive, but it isn't, it's big and clunky and the dials are terrible) There is absolutely no reason I can think of to re-invent the wheel, vis-a-vis GUI's. CL made that mistake and DAZ are doing the same. And what exactly does 64-bit architecture have to do with it? As far as I am aware, having wider registers on a chip doesn't preclude the use of modal panels :)

ToolmakerSteve--"Kai has a terrible sense of interface design." Absolutely, they are the worst of the lot!

I never liked Kai interface but programs that have it like Poser and Bryce are about the only ones I can stand. I don't know what the Windows API looks like but I know I would probably hate it ...

I got Kai's Power Tools One when it first came out. My initial reaction was how awful the interface was. Then I realized it was probably designed that way to inspire experimentation with the program. You had to experiment with KPT to accomplish anything; there was no direct way to do anything. I guess, for that purpose, the interface was sufficient. But I sure did hope it didn't become a "trend," which it did. "its wise for DAZ to target markets where the software can utilize the awesome computing power that's available. NOT continue to tie thier fortunes to a non hardware accelerated program based on early 1990's technology. if that means using a modern interface design with nonmodal panels unfamiliar to poser users then so be it." VERY true. This is what many hoped CL would do with Poser 5. But, alas, they decided to "continue to tie their fortunes to a non hardware accelerated program based on early 1990's technology." Bless DAZ for creating a modern program. I don't care what the interace looks like, as long as it works and flows smoothly, I'll learn it. I'd like to leave the past and get into the present ASAP.

Yup, it's good of DAZ to provide a good piece of modern software and all that. But interface design doesn't have anything to do with whether new hardware is supported or not. If you're happy to learn a new interface for every piece of software that comes out, then that's fine, but personally I prefer to spend the extra time using the features of the package and it's helpful if everything is where I expect it to be. One of the fundamental tenets of UI design states that there should be as little switching between mouse and keyboard as possible so as to create more fluid workflow. Now if you extend that idea to software interface paradigms, then I would think it counter-intuitive to have to remember the subtle nuances of each interface for a spread of programs that I might use in the creation of one project. This is the situation that existed in DOS days and was generally considered horrible. I don't really see where the past or present comes into it. Poser's underlying code might be showing it's age but, again, that has nothing to do with the interface. I've seen reviews bashing Lightwave for it's interface, which doesn't have any relevence to it's abilities as a program. It used to be thought that the way forward was to harmonize differing applications through the use of a common UI. I believe that to be still true and I've seen nothing that Poser or DAZ Studio requires that isn't already provided for by the controls and dialogues present in Window's own toolset. By the way, I should point out that I'm not necessarily trying to preach that Windows is great or anything; I think it's no better or worse than any other environment. But I only had to learn how to use it once and I then knew how to get around in many, many packages thereafter. You actually LIKE the interfaces used by Poser and Bryce, Ghostofmacbeth? Well, I suppose someone has to! ;)

I don't like them but they seem right in some aspects. I am not someone that likes to number-crunch camera movements and number-crunch lights and poser and bryce work for me that way. They aren't overly crowded most times (well at least how I have it set up) and I know them but even when I was first starting out with them I could get them for the most part. Colors and other things are questionable but I like a lot of parts of the design and really hate most other 3D programs that I have looked at. Mostly because of the interface.

I'm glad that they work for you; I can't really get my head around them myself. I think, for my part, I don't really like interfaces that have too much of a very graphical element to them because icons and such like can seem cryptic, and I suppose I have a terrible memory. I used to do a lot of programming so I guess I like lots of numbers and buttons with text written on them and so forth. It's not actually any particular interface style that I have issues with really (although I do find the DAZ Studio one aesthetically nightmarish), it's mainly the diversity I can't stomach and- I dunno, having overly pretty graphics seems to make them feel a little "toy-ish" to me. I guess I'd just really like to at least have the option of a standard interface with these things. But then, I've never had a desktop wallpaper, never changed default colours, never customized a toolbar and my cellphone just rings normally. Perhaps getting older is bringing out the conservative tastes in me... ;)

Yep .. I am kind of wary of the DAZ interface becaue it loks a little too number crunchy too me :) But I am an artist and thing graphically and not numerically.

Well, we'll see how it all turns out in the end. I've been particularly harsh about DAZ Studio which, on reflection, is a bit unfair of me because it is very Alpha and they're getting comments from users so it might change a bit yet. I understand that you're looking at it with an artist's eye, though. I'm not good at traditional art techniques so I suppose I'm more inclined to use the "nuts'n'bolts" methods to put down what I have in my head whereas I guess you might be able to apply some artist's skills. I suppose we'll all be able to compare notes again once the Beta program gets under way. I'm still looking forward to using it, though, despite my aversion to the interface. Happy rendering!